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Some thoughts and a question on Wylla, and a specific choice of wording by Edric.


Macgregor of the North

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23 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

But this exchange also confirms that Ned had a plan since 283AC to name Jons mother as Wylla should he ever need to name her.

He had already told Robert that in the past so its certainly a plan Ned had made for such an occasion, a plan the Daynes of Starfall are also following still.

We know that Ned is keeping Jon's parentage a secret.  He doesn't lie and if he can't tell the truth, he remains silent.  His exchange with Catelyn over Jon; is really about the rumors she hears about Ashara rather than Wylla. The only time Wylla is mentioned is when Robert forces the issue by asking about Ned's bastard.  This is the only time I can determine in Ned's POV where he has outright lied.  That is if you believe that Lyanna is Jon's mother.  The Wylla cover story makes Jon's parentage of no consequence to Robert, so he drops it at Ned's insistence.  Whatever the story is behind Jon's father; Ned is misdirecting Robert; keeping the truth hidden.  Robert even thinks that Jon was fathered on some tavern wench somewhere during the campaign.  Ned lets him continue to think so.

If Jon is Eddric Dayne's milk-brother; then Wylla is simply the milk-mother or wet nurse.  This places Jon at Starfall at some point.  I think it's entirely possible that Lyanna gave birth there and was disguising herself as a common woman called Wylla.  That implicates the Daynes something else that Ned is keeping firmly under wraps.

Eddric assumes that his wetnurse is the same Wylla who nursed Jon.  Maybe yes, maybe no.  Arya also jumps to the conclusion that Wylla is Jon's mother without hearing the rest of Edric's story about Ashara and Ned.  if Lyanna is in truth Jon's mother; this story is misdirection also.

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5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Call it lack of a new book and too much time on my hands lol, but for some reason , on re reads I'm not as sure as I was on that view as I once was. 

Arya asks if he knows Jon's mother, but he swears that Wylla was his Wet Nurse, on the honor of his house, but not that he knew Jon's mother. Like he didn't want to swear he knew Jon's mother sort of thing.

Im gonna re read again, but the exchange has triggered an alarm bell that's got me thinking.

 

Which brings me back to my theory regarding Ashara Dayne as Jon's wetnurse. Edric may have remembered just in time not to mention his aunt.

But no. He is too young to know the truth. He probably just thought that nobody could possibly doubt Wylla was Jon's mother - and that Arya was therefore doubting that Wylla was his wetnurse.

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33 minutes ago, Tini said:

Edric is younger than Jon. That is why he doesn't swear that Wylla is Jon's mother - he wasn't there.

Did Wylla really know what was going on? Was she at the Tower of Joy? Did she know what happened there? Or did she stay at Starfall, and has been fed a story just like everyone else?

There is another possible candidate for wetnurse at the Tower of Joy. Ashara Dayne.

We are told Ashara Dayne committed suicide after Ned brought news from the Tower of Joy. She is connected to the events at the Tower of Joy through her brother, Ser Arthur Dayne, and through her infatuation with the quiet wolf, Ned Stark. According to Barristan Selmy, she was delivered of a still-born daughter earlier. She may have filled in as wetnurse at her brother's request. (Which, incidentally, means, that it might've been Ashara who told Ned about the Tower of Joy.)

Wylla may think she is covering for Ashara rather than Lyanna when claiming she is Jon's mother.

Arya asks Edric if he knew Jon's mother. If he truly believes it's Wylla, he does know her. She's been a servant of his house for years and years, he could say- Yes I swear I know her, but he chooses to say, Wylla was my Wet Nurse, I swear it on the honor of my house.

To me this seems like a slight hesitation by Edric to swear that he actually knew Jon's mother. Because well, he didn't of course. This would make sense if Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall, knows who Jon's mother was, but never actually knew her. 

Of course what I'm implying, or asking I suppose, is it possible we can find a clue in here that Edric knows Jon Snows true parentage. 

He is Lord of Starfall after all. Perhaps they clued him up on the ruse thinking that since he is the lord he should know the secrets of his house.

 

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It seems to me that Edric is getting this information from his Aunt.  I'm not sure that Edric knows anything other than what his aunt has told him.  Presumably she got this information from Ashara.  I'm also not surprised that men in Berric Dondarrion's brotherhood would know something of the details since he was betrothed to Ashara's sister.  They know they are not supposed to talk about it also.  Arya is advised not to bring it up with Catelyn.

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37 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Anyway Wylla can maintain lactation in the absence of a nursling for moderate periods of time by hand expressing, so she could travel from Starfall to the ToJ without a child and still feed Jon, and likewise she may never have been at the ToJ and Ned can have taken Jon to Starfall where she begins feeding him, a baby can last a surprising length of time without being fed, and Ned can easily ask small folk women in villages they pass to feed his motherless "son". request goats milk and a rag to keep him hydrated till the next village etc. 

Thanks for the explanation! 

I've had some new ideas:

- I am sure Lyanna must have had at least a midwife if not a wet nurse by her at the ToJ prior to the delivery. Wylla might have been both a midwife and a wet nurse in one person which makes sense considering they wanted to keep the whole affair secret.

- if no wet nurse was ready at the ToJ (doubt it) and Lyanna was too weak to breastfeed (that is medically possible, right?), Arthur could have taken the baby Jon to Starfall right away he was born, so the baby was not there when Ned arrived a few days later. If the baby was already waiting for Ned at Starfall and was not brought by him, it might have been easier to pretend he's Ned's, either by Wylla or by Ashara, depending on whether the smallfolk believe the "official" explanation or the rumor.

I am not sure about the show spoiler policy here, but 

Spoiler

it was actually only after the 6x10 episode that I realized that plenty of people probably know about Lyanna - she must have had servants. I know this is not a place to discuss the show, but there was a pretty long view of one of the servants in the episode. Wylla?

 

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4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We know that Ned is keeping Jon's parentage a secret.  He doesn't lie and if he can't tell the truth, he remains silent.  His exchange with Catelyn over Jon; is really about the rumors she hears about Ashara rather than Wylla. The only time Wylla is mentioned is when Robert forces the issue by asking about Ned's bastard.  This is the only time I can determine in Ned's POV where he has outright lied.  That is if you believe that Lyanna is Jon's mother.  The Wylla cover story makes Jon's parentage of no consequence to Robert, so he drops it at Ned's insistence.  Whatever the story is behind Jon's father; Ned is misdirecting Robert; keeping the truth hidden.  Robert even thinks that Jon was fathered on some tavern wench somewhere during the campaign.  Ned lets him continue to think so.

If Jon is Eddric Dayne's milk-brother; then Wylla is simply the milk-mother or wet nurse.  This places Jon at Starfall at some point.  I think it's entirely possible that Lyanna gave birth there and was disguising herself as a common woman called Wylla.  That implicates the Daynes something else that Ned is keeping firmly under wraps.

Eddric assumes that his wetnurse is the same Wylla who nursed Jon.  Maybe yes, maybe no.  Arya also jumps to the conclusion that Wylla is Jon's mother without hearing the rest of Edric's story about Ashara and Ned.  if Lyanna is in truth Jon's mother; this story is misdirection also.

Of course Ned is keeping Jon's parentage a secret. But it is glaringly obvious that should the need arise, Wylla, the Starfall Wet Nurse, has been positioned into place to be that person he names. 

He has told Robert her name in the past, he has to tell him it again when Robert probes once more. He never actually has to speak about Wylla with Cat because the rumour mill about Ashara has spared him that because after Cat brings up Ashara once Ned scares the whole damn castle into not only never mentioning Ashara again, but never mentioning Jon's parentage again.

But, I personally believe, that you can be sure that there was a deal made, involving Ned and House Dayne, that Wylla the Wet Nurse of Starfall is to be named as Jon's mother should any questions ever get asked to who Jon's mother really was.

Which is why my op states it's ridiculous for anybody to think she was the Wet Nurse at WF. She returned to Starfall before Ned got to Winterfell, or never left.

And she's still there it seems, playing her part that was agreed by Ned and House Dayne back in 283AC.

This is confirmed by Edric and Aryas exchange in ASOS.

Note, Arya jumps to the conclusion because Edric mentions the words milk brothers. She doesn't understand. She is a child. 

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4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It seems to me that Edric is getting this information from his Aunt.  I'm not sure that Edric knows anything other than what his aunt has told him.  Presumably she got this information from Ashara.  I'm also not surprised that men in Berric Dondarrion's brotherhood would know something of the details since he was betrothed to Ashara's sister.  They know they are not supposed to talk about it also.  Arya is advised not to bring it up with Catelyn.

Harwin mentions that he knows details about Ashara and Neds tale because he heard it at Winterfell when he was Aryas age.

He is warning Arya not to talk about Ashara, or Wylla being Jon's mother etc in front of Cat. For obvious reasons.

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8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

He has told Robert her name in the past, he has to tell him it again when Robert probes once more.

The thought has crossed my mind that Robert was actually trolling for information during that exchange as well.

ETA: Robert does follow up by saying that Wylla must have been some kind of woman for Ned to forget his honor.  So perhaps Robert doesn't quite believe Ned knowing him as well as he does.

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16 minutes ago, Tini said:

But no. He is too young to know the truth. He probably just thought that nobody could possibly doubt Wylla was Jon's mother - and that Arya was therefore doubting that Wylla was his wetnurse.

Thing is, he's twelve and Lord of the House, I'm not sure he's too young to be told a secret, he seems a smart enough lad. What I'm trying to find angles for is if he has been told the truth but has taken it upon himself to continue to promote the ruse and uphold the honor of his house.

This is what's got me thinking.

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2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The thought has crossed my mind that Robert was actually trolling for information during that exchange as well.

The fact that Ned uses the name. And Mentions that he has told it to Robert before, which I believe wholeheartedly to be the same name, and that the Daynes are promoting the exact same information, shows me that this was a plan made by Ned and the Daynes to have Wylla be the mother if they ever had to be forced to provide a mother.

The Daynes are still upholding this plan even now as evident with Edric.

The thing I'm not as certain of though, is that if Edric is actually in the know and hesitates to swear due to this info, or he is not yet in the know.

In any event it's obvious the Daynes and Ned are in league with a plot to name Jon's mother as their Wet Nurse/servant Wylla. That much is clear.

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2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The fact that Ned uses the name. And Mentions that he has told it to Robert before, which I believe wholeheartedly to be the same name, and that the Daynes are promoting the exact same information, shows me that this was a plan made by Ned and the Daynes to have Wylla be the mother if they ever had to be forced to provide a mother.

The Daynes are still upholding this plan even now as evident with Edric.

The thing I'm not as certain of though, is that if Edric is actually in the know and hesitates to swear due to this info, or he is not yet in the know.

In any event it's obvious the Daynes and Ned are in league with a plot to name Jon's mother as their Wet Nurse/servant Wylla. That much is clear.

Yes. With Arthur and Ashara both dead; the question is why?

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7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Thing is, he's twelve and Lord of the House, I'm not sure he's too young to be told a secret, he seems a smart enough lad. What I'm trying to find angles for is if he has been told the truth but has taken it upon himself to continue to promote the ruse and uphold the honor of his house.

This is what's got me thinking.

No, he's not too young to be told a secret. But who could have passed this particular secret, that of Jon's parentage, on to him?

I think Ashara and Arthur were the only members of House Dayne who knew the truth of Jon's parentage. And those two took it to their graves with them. For vows, and honor. For (disappointed) love.

There may be some rumors still around that Wylla wasn't pregnant, or the question where and when Wylla and Ned got it on.  Maybe Edric had heard these rumors as well as the story that Jon is Wylla's son. Maybe he started having doubts when he realized that Arya had never heard of Wylla - and therefore swore to something he had no doubts about.

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7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes. With Arthur and Ashara both dead; the question is why?

With them dead there is still reason why. He still needs a story for Jon should the need arise. Of course he plans on being icy cold and silent on the matter the rest of his days but what if that doesn't serve? 

What if one day there is serious reason (use your imagination) for Ned to actually say, look this is Jon's mother ok, her name is Wylla. And if they travel to find her at least she can say yes, I am, we had relations and I birthed Jon.

Of course he banks on his icy demeanour deflecting any questions but they still needed something in place and I believe that's what they set up with Wylla and the Daynes and it still stands today.

Whsts bugging me though is if Edric knows. Lol, I'm not letting it go, yet anyway.

Im gonna post the portion of the text and bold a part. Somebody tell me it seems fishy! Or gang up on me and tell me I'm over thinking.

Basically, if the Lord of House Dayne knows Jon Snows true parentage, I believe this opens up seriously cool possibilities and I wanna either explore the possibility, or rule it out with the forums help.

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This is the conversation between Edric and Arya where I want to question a remark by Edric which I'll bold.

Does Edric hesitate to swear he knew Jon's mother?. Does he swerve Aryas question. Is there a chance Edric knows who Jon's real mother was and is part of the ruse that House Dayne has going which places their longtime servant Wylla as Jon's mother.

 

"My father was called Ned too," she said.
"I know. I saw him at the Hand's tourney. I wanted to go up and speak with him, but I couldn't think what to say." Ned shivered beneath his cloak, a sodden length of pale purple. "Were you at the tourney? I saw your sister there. Ser Loras Tyrell gave her a rose."
"She told me." It all seemed so long ago. "Her friend Jeyne Poole fell in love with your Lord Beric."
"He's promised to my aunt." Ned looked uncomfortable. "That was before, though. Before he . . . "
. . . died? she thought, as Ned's voice trailed off into an awkward silence. Their horses' hooves made sucking sounds as they pulled free of the mud.
"My lady?" Ned said at last. "You have a baseborn brother . . . Jon Snow?"
"He's with the Night's Watch on the Wall." Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . "Jon looks like me, even though he's bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.' " Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. "How do you know about Jon?"
"He is my milk brother."
"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"
"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."
Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"
"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."
"Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making mock of me? "If you lie I'll punch your face."
"Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the honor of my House."

 

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Hmmm....it does appear that Edric (GRRM) does not want to commit to the 'Wyla is Jon Snow's mother' idea. I see exactly what you are pointing out. Ned Dayne is playing politician and not answering Arya's question...just like the politicians are doing now. He's answering the question but not really.

Now, whether he knows, or this is GRRM dropping another Easter Egg, I'm not sure. but it does make you sit up and pay attention. Arya was put with Ned for just this reason....for this line.

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1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Cheers for weighing in with a clued up perspective, I'm certainly no expert on this. 

I personally think the chances Wylla was at the Tower of Joy are quite high. If she was an experienced professional Wet Nurse at Starfall, which I believe she was, I think Arthur sent for her to assist with Lyannas care and when the baby is born, then she can be there for Wet Nurse duties should the need arise. 

You have confirmed she could continue lactating through hand expression so that could work. There had to be help at the Tower of Joy for Lyanna in the form of someone else other than the three KG. I think Wylla, a mother herself and professional Wet Nurse with lots of experience no doubt with pregnant mothers, babies etc etc fits the bill.

I think all involved would rather have somebody in place at the Tower in the event they are needed, rather than leave it to chance if they had to move the baby and find goats nearby or a lactating female somewhere. Forward preparation and all that. 

This child is Royal blood and Rhaegars third head of the dragon, I think they would have had measures in place.

I think we have to be very careful about making assumptions. 

When i first joined the forums I noticed there were a few assumptions about the ToJ which were almost taken as fact, but which have zero in text evidence. 

One of them being that Wylla was actually at the ToJ, another being that Ashara told Ned where to find Lyanna. 

You have to ask yourself, why are these assumptions being made? We have nothing at all to imply Ashara was in KL during the sack in order to inform Ned where to find his sister. We have nothing to imply she had any idea where Lyanna and Rhaegar had been at all in fact. 

And Wylla is a wet nurse, not a midwife/woods witch. The two are far from interchangeable. But we do know she works for the Dayne's so we know there is some connection between Jon, Ned, and them, this is further backed by the fact Ned Dayne appears to have been named for Ned Stark. 

We know Ashara was at Starfall when Ned returned Dawn. And we know Arthur was one of the knights at the TOJ. the two locations seem to be relatively close to one another, maybe several days ride. But no more than that. Of course we can make the leap that the siblings where in contact. But again what proof? A raven sent from one location to the other is their likeliest means of communication. In which case wouldn't she have warned Arthur Ned was on his way? if he sent a raven to her requesting assistance in the form of a wet nurse when Lyanna became ill, then what evidence is there he knew how to do that? ravenry is a Maesters art. 

I think it is important to not make big leaps such as Wylla was at the TOJ. I'm not saying she wasn't, but equally we don't have anything to indicate that she was. 

Lyanna's guards would indeed be likely to have sought assistance. But in that case the person they'd send for would be a Maester, or a woods witch/local wise woman cum midwife. I think it more likely that the person who was with Lyanna during her delivery was some smallfolk woman from a local village or a Maester who has kept his council all these years, than Wylla.

They had no reason to think Lyanna would not be nursing her baby herself. Indeed there is no reason she wouldn't have been, even with a fever she'd be totally able to produce milk and breastfeed. The only reason not to produce milk would have been retained placenta, which of course could indeed have been what killed her. but they wouldn't know that was going to happen pre birth, and I suspect GRRM is unaware that this would hinder lactation. I suspect he has Lyanna dying of childbed fever which can be caused by any number of ways bacteria could manage to get in to her womb and take hold. Hell she could die from mastitis, any infection runs riot it can kill.  Maybe she just had a bad tooth? 

My point is assuming Wylla was there is imo dangerous. We simply don't have anything as evidence for that. I think Wylla was likely employed once he got to Starfall myself. And stayed with them until they reached WF, before returning south to Dorne.  And as I pointed out up thread. if Allyria is Ashara's daughter, who would be roughly 1 yr ish at this point. Then there being a Wet nurse at Starfall makes perfect sense. She can't feed her herself, because she is supposed to be her big sister. But Lady Dayne is likely dry as a witches tit at this point, given that Ashara, and Arthur and their elder brother are grown up. And has to employ Wylla for the purpose instead. 

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10 minutes ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

Hmmm....it does appear that Edric (GRRM) does not want to commit to the 'Wyla is Jon Snow's mother' idea. I see exactly what you are pointing out. Ned Dayne is playing politician and not answering Arya's question...just like the politicians are doing now. He's answering the question but not really.

Now, whether he knows, or this is GRRM dropping another Easter Egg, I'm not sure. but it does make you sit up and pay attention. Arya was put with Ned for just this reason....for this line.

We have a taker! I'm glad somebody else has noticed there's something funny about that exchange there. I have to go just now but I'll return to the thread later.

At least for now it's cool to know someone else noticed what I saw.

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@The Weirwoods Eyes

I totally see your point and agree about being cautious to make assumptions. Thank you for the proper overview of the facts we know, it's easy to get lost in the facts and guesses.

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 And as I pointed out up thread. if Allyria is Ashara's daughter

However, this, for instance, is in my opinion clearly an assumption with little textual or other evidence. :P

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

In which case wouldn't she have warned Arthur Ned was on his way?

Maybe she even did, but what good would it be? If Starfall is "several days ride" as you say, Lyanna would be either very pregnant or very weak after delivery when Ned called at Starfall before presumably heading to the ToJ. Either way, the KG would hardly be able to move her somewhere else and would not have time to bring a larger guard.

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

what evidence is there he knew how to do that? ravenry is a Maesters art. 

I believe there is precedent for unskilled people to just let the ravens out of the cage with a message if the ravens are trained to know where to go. Don't have the books on me at the moment though.

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think it is important to not make big leaps such as Wylla was at the TOJ. I'm not saying she wasn't, but equally we don't have anything to indicate that she was. 

To sum up, yes, you're right, but it is almost sure that there were some servants at the ToJ and it is a very logical assumption that whoever "hired" them had to be sure of their loyalty. Servants of house Dayne are a likely choice due to relative proximity of Starfall and the presence of Arthur. And what is IMO the most important - we are told Wylla's name in connection with Jon and we're told about her identity by Edric. To me, it is not an evidence, but it is a very good hint to build assumptions upon that Wylla really was Jon's wet nurse and thus has at least an idea who he was and under what conditions he was born. Whether or not she was actually present at the ToJ is quite marginal.

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37 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This is the conversation between Edric and Arya where I want to question a remark by Edric which I'll bold.

Does Edric hesitate to swear he knew Jon's mother?. Does he swerve Aryas question. Is there a chance Edric knows who Jon's real mother was and is part of the ruse that House Dayne has going which places their longtime servant Wylla as Jon's mother.

 

"My father was called Ned too," she said.
"I know. I saw him at the Hand's tourney. I wanted to go up and speak with him, but I couldn't think what to say." Ned shivered beneath his cloak, a sodden length of pale purple. "Were you at the tourney? I saw your sister there. Ser Loras Tyrell gave her a rose."
"She told me." It all seemed so long ago. "Her friend Jeyne Poole fell in love with your Lord Beric."
"He's promised to my aunt." Ned looked uncomfortable. "That was before, though. Before he . . . "
. . . died? she thought, as Ned's voice trailed off into an awkward silence. Their horses' hooves made sucking sounds as they pulled free of the mud.
"My lady?" Ned said at last. "You have a baseborn brother . . . Jon Snow?"
"He's with the Night's Watch on the Wall." Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . "Jon looks like me, even though he's bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.' " Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. "How do you know about Jon?"
"He is my milk brother."
"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"
"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."
Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"
"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."
"Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making mock of me? "If you lie I'll punch your face."
"Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the honor of my House."

 

It sounds like Wylla told him the story.  The other statement that stands out is Arya's assertion that Jon looks like her and the assumption that Arya looked like Lyanna.

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I'm also in the camp that if Wyla accompanied Jon to Winterfell, she left shortly thereafter...most certainly before Cat and Robb arrived. But given the rumors that were circulating about Ashara (that Ned squashed) I suspect another wet nurse may have made the journey.

As far as the raven messages, I believe if any were sent, they were from the TOJ to Starfall. Ravens have to be trained to fly to one specific destination. That's why they are useless in the field unless someone is wanting to contact someone at a castle they have a trained raven on hand for. (Like Mormont took CB, Eastwatch and Shadowtower ravens with him on the big ranging...but none could reach him) Sam wasn't a maester, but he was in charge of the ravens and sending messages. But he was familiar with the process and the care of the birds. If any birds were at the TOJ, they were under the care of someone that was familiar with them and probably only flew to Starfall.

I suspect that Jon was a few days old when Ned reached Lyanna, but have no hard evidence to back it up except for her fever. There would have been at the very least a midwife in residence. Rhaegar would not have left her there with just the knights who had no clue about 'birthin babies'. He was wanting this third head bad enough that he sought another mother to bear it...he would have had help in place, no doubt. Now as far as a wet nurse...maybe, maybe not. As others have pointed out, a woman who is lactating can't just sit around for weeks until there's a baby on hand to nurse.

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