Some thoughts and a question on Wylla, and a specific choice of wording by Edric.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

17 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You mentioned that Rhaegar would not have kept things secret on his return to KL. Im quite sure its you that needs to clarify what you mean here.

Its simple, do you think he would have been telling people the location or not?

I still wonder how the fact that Lyanna went off with Rhaegar became known. Did she leave a note? Did Rhaegar sent a message "I took Lyanna away, don't look for her" or did he come to WF and demanded to give him Lyanna and rode away with her? There are so many holes in this story

[Macgregor of the North]

7 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I still wonder how the fact that Lyanna went off with Rhaegar became known. Did she leave a note? Did Rhaegar sent a message "I took Lyanna away, don't look for her" or did he come to WF and demanded to give him Lyanna and rode away with her? There are so many holes in this story

He fell upon her in the riverlands. There had to be witnesses of a sort, Brandon found out somehow. Then word spread like wildfire.

Somewhere along the lines it became "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna", but i think right at the beginning there may even have been an idea that Brandon himself even may have subscribed to that she went willingly. He might have even been just as mad at her as he was with Rhaegar when he rode south. Although that is just speculation i like to keep open.

Its known as fact though that Lyanna was taken in the riverlands, and Brandon received word while also travelling in the riverlands.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@Macgregor of the North

I'm going to gently suggest that you re read our interactions with a less emotionally invested eye. And also stop comparing me to this other person you are reminded of. 

GRRM has said that his people are the same biologically as humans. Meaning that my knowledge about human lactation applies. The author demonstrated that he knows real world history in regards to midwifery and who practised it, and that he has used a similar role in world for such women. The fact that Wylla is not a woodswitch means she isn't someone who would be brought in to assist.

We know Lyanna died from a fever, and we can guess that this happened shortly after she gave birth. We can apply real world knowledge and historical facts to ascertain that the author intends that she died from Child Bed fever. And we can use well known historical accounts such as Jayne Seymour to guess at the time frame in which she died. As well as our own modern knowledge of the condition. IE: she died likely about 10 days post delivery. 

So during that period either the KG brought in a wet nurse as she got more and more fevered or they simply carried on tending to Lyanna as best they could and helped her hold Jon as he nursed, because a fever won't stop your milk supply. And hoped she'd fight it off. Fever's post birth are not uncommon but can be fatal. It is down to bacteria getting into the womb during the delivery, or retained products (which as I have said can cause a mother to not make enough/any milk. But this is I feel likely unknown to GRRM as it is not common knowledge.) Or through a tear in the perineum which gets infected. 

I've never stated Wylla can not be there, simply that it's a stretch to assume she was. There are  scenario's where she would be brought in and scenario's where she would not be. But I do insist that assuming she was there from the off, and that she was some sort of midwife cum emergency wet nurse is highly silly. 

We do know Ned travelled to the place she lived and worked directly after the ToJ though. So if nothing else she was employed then. Either way she has some knowledge of Jon's origins. But I doubt she will be able to reveal everything. I doubt anyone will be "the one" to reveal his whole story. Even Howland only knows so much. 

I have answered this already, but I'll do so again. Yes I think he will have told some people her location, and the nature of their relationship. I made some suggestions too. His Mother being the likeliest to know everything, Barristan and Jaime are candidates to have some knowledge as KG they are in the "circle of trust" some staff may have overheard some discussion. varys probably has a bit of knowledge too, but not enough to make him a danger to Jon during the preceding 14 years till AGOT. 

There will also be some small folk around the ToJ who have some knowledge, whoever their servants where etc. Rhaegar's original companions know some stuff too. He set out with half a dozen men, but only two of them died at the ToJ. Who where they? are any of them still alive? And my own theory is that Darkstar was a squire with them and so I think he would know some stuff too. Ned Dayne's family have some pieces of the puzzle, but it seems they are all dead. Bar himself and Allyria but she seems to be too young to have first hand knowledge. So we look to the staff. And yes Wylla. And if Ashara pops up at some point I'm sure she will be able to fill us in a bit too. But I don't think we have reason to assume either knows all. 

[Noel E Mahc]

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think it's entirely possible that Lyanna gave birth there and was disguising herself as a common woman called Wylla. 

This is one of my theories too, but I'll wait until the story plays out, lol.

[Macgregor of the North]

5 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I have answered this already, but I'll do so again. Yes I think he will have told some people her location

Upon his return to Kings landing to train levies for the war. Do you think Rhaegar was telling people in Kings landing the location of Lyanna with no secrecy around it.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

22 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

He fell upon her in the riverlands. There had to be witnesses of a sort, Brandon found out somehow. Then word spread like wildfire.

Somewhere along the lines it became "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna", but i think right at the beginning there may even have been an idea that Brandon himself even may have subscribed to that she went willingly. He might have even been just as mad at her as he was with Rhaegar when he rode south. Although that is just speculation i like to keep open.

Its known as fact though that Lyanna was taken in the riverlands, and Brandon received word while also travelling in the riverlands.  

The fact that Rickard and Brandon went to KL shows that they were 100% positive. You don't go to confront a king (especially so hmm emotionaly unstable as Aerys) without a hard evidence.

Sorry for derailing your thread.

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

The fact that Rickard and Brandon went to KL shows that they were 100% positive. You don't go to confront a king (especially so hmm emotionaly unstable as Aerys) without a hard evidence.

Sorry for derailing your thread.

You never derailed it. Your welcome to talk here with what's on your mind. All threads take twists and turns and I love book discussions in general.

[Macgregor of the North]

@The Weirwoods Eyes, look, the reason I keep asking for you to clarify in better detail is because I don't think your being clear enough. 

I personally think that Rhaegar returned to KL to train levies and win the war. He did not want the location of Lyanna known so he kept that information out of circulation among the people of KL. 

I also believe Ned found out the location later, after leaving KL in the biggest huff he has ever been in in his whole life. 

At this juncture I want to place something that I think may help to act as evidence to back up my belief. I'm not saying this completely solidifies what I'm saying but I wanna just place it here for the thread to chew on.

Do you remember Ned throwing the position of Kings hand back in Roberts face and making plans to return to Winterfell at once. And this was over a similar topic, the murder of children. 

Now after the sack, the bodies were fresh kills, wrapped in Lannister cloaks. Ned would have been furious, possibly more furious than we could ever imagine him. More furious than when he resigns as hand and is more than willing to just head back North on the next available ship, and that is just after discussions on whether they should kill Dany.

By this logic, I think it's possible that if Ned knew of Lyannas whereabouts after the sack of KL and his fight with Robert, while at KL, he would have went to her immediately and left the siege to another Lord.
Its not like the responsibility fell just to Ned to lift the siege, there were other Lords.

I think we would both agree that Ned is a dutiful man and would have wanted to end the war completely and would have taken it upon himself to do so.

But, if going by my example above, there is a chance that if Ned knew of Lyannas location while at KL and after his and Roberts fight, then he would have threw the responsibility to lift the siege right in Roberts face just as he did with the hands badge of office in AGOT and headed to retrieve his sister. 
There is precedent for that kind of behaviour, even for honourable duty bound Ned Stark. 
So, I personally think we can use this as a piece of evidence for Ned finding out later, after Kings Landing. Just my view on it.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

27 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Upon his return to Kings landing to train levies for the war. Do you think Rhaegar was telling people in Kings landing the location of Lyanna with no secrecy around it.

Some people yes. Everyone willy nilly, no. but then I said that already several times. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Some people yes. Everyone willy nilly, no. but then I said that already several times. 

His mother Rhaella you said yes? Well we know she never told Ned. 

Who else? You mention Barristan but he wasn't at KL and I think we both agree 100% that he never told Ned.

Jaime? See above. I don't think that you believe he told Ned either.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

His mother Rhaella you said yes? Well we know she never told Ned. 

Who else? You mention Barristan but he wasn't at KL and I think we both agree 100% that he never told Ned.

Jaime? See above. I don't think that you believe he told Ned either.

I think you are missing my point. 

Ned found out. There would be people in the Red Keep who knew. be it a servant who overheard, a house guard who was confided in. Varys, who uses his little birds. A lady in waiting who was with Rhaella but stayed in KL. there are many possibilities. 

My point is that I think a lot more people knew where Lyanna was than is generally accepted. Rhaegar had no reason to keep it a top secret thing once he returns to KL. The chances are the location was a secret to begin with because they were waiting for an obvious pregnancy before announcing they had married. (this was a real thing which people really did) It prevents anyone being able to declare the marriage unconsummated. Once she is expecting, and Rhaegar has returned to KL with a view to deposing his father and winning the war. Why would he need to keep it a secret? There is a good chance he would explain to certain people what he did, why, and what his plans are. We know he told Jaime he planed on making changes, we know Barristan knows Rhaegar truly loved her, we know Dany was told the story of how he carried Lyanna off at sword point and that this story was romanticised for her.  We know Ned found out where Lyanna was after he arrived in the red keep and went to find her. Ergo someone in the red keep tipped him off.

Because the alternative that he spontaneously travelled to Starfall and was told by Ashara where to find her brother whom he intended to fight to the death if required is too daft. Ashara has no reason to want to tell Ned anything, it wasn't him she got pregnant by. And Ned has no reason to travel to Starfall seeking information about Lyanna. And Arthur has no real reason to have told his sister where he was and who he was guarding or why. 

ETA: Another indicator that more people knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna than we are told is Hightower, Aerys sent him to bring Rhaegar back in order to lead the troops. Yet no one questions, if it were such and enormous secret at that point how on earth the Lord Commander found him?  

Someone told, someone always tells. 

[Tini]

2 hours ago, Notlad said:

I've always wondered why it came to swords between Ned Stark and Arthur Dayne. If the theories are correct about Lyanna going willingly with Rhaegar it would make sense for Rhaegar to want to keep Lyanna and the baby safe, so he has three of the Kingsguard there to protect them. However, when it's Ned that shows up at the ToJ wouldn't that change the circumstances? If house Dayne willingly helped Lyanna and then Ned after the baby is born and Lyanna dies, it seems odd to me that Arthur and Ned would grab for their swords first, especially since  Ned held Arthur in high esteem. Also, wouldn't Lyanna have mentioned Ned to Rhaegar at some point. It doesn't seem like Rhaegar would order the Kingsguard to kill Eddard if he happened to show up, and I'm sure Lyanna wouldn't want her brother killed. Anyone have any insight on this?

Robert Baratheon's victory changed the circumstances for House Dayne and Ser Arthur. Ser Arthur was sworn to King Aerys and House Targaryen. House Dayne was not - they owed fealty to the Martells of Dorne. When the Prince of Dorne bent the knee, they were free to follow suit. Ser Arthur was not - not free, not willing. They were not on the same side any longer.

Neither were Ned and Arthur, no matter how much respect Ned may have felt for Ser Arthur. No wonder, then, that they grabbed their swords when they unexpectedly came face to face.

Rhaegar was dead when Ned came to the Tower of Joy. The King's Guard were following older orders which probably didn't include Ned at all. What Rhaegar would've ordered if Ned had arrived while he was present is anyone's guess. I think Rhaegar and Lyanna would've tried to reason with Ned. But Rhaegar was dead, and Lyanna was dying.

Ned met Ser Arthur first. And Ser Arthur was at an impasse.

He was there to keep Lyanna, and her baby, safe. Ser Arthur would've been well aware that Lyanna wouldn't want to lose another brother. And unless he totally misjudged Ned, he knew that Ned posed no danger to sister and nephew.

Still, Ned had sworn allegiance to the usurper. He would not have allowed them to leave (with Lyanna), he would've taken them to King's Landing - where they would've been offered the choice to join Robert Baratheon's King's Guard, or be executed as traitors.

They made their choice. They had taken vows, and planned to uphold them. Leaving was no option, as Lyanna was too weak to travel. Neither was laying down their arms to be executed as traitors. So fight it was.

They fought, but not in order to win; they intended to die honorably, in battle.
I think that is the only reason why Ned's group was able to defeat them, and at so little loss. 

[Megaera]

16 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

Edric is not lying to Arya.  Why would anyone tell him about a big conspiracy before he leaves to squire for Bedric.  No one could have foreseen that war would break out and that the little lord would need vital information.

I agree. I can't see any reason why anyone else would need to be told about a ruse that had worked.

Although, it's not impossible that Edric could overheard snippets of castle gossip that may make him think there was more to Jon's parentage which would explain his deflection when making to vow to Arya

[Macgregor of the North]

21 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think you are missing my point.

I think we are missing each others points if im honest.

22 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Rhaegar had no reason to keep it a top secret thing once he returns to KL

I wholeheartedly believe he actually does. The location i mean. The more people who know his womans location and the location of his unborn third head of the dragon, the worse it is. Best keep that shit quiet is what hes thinking i believe.

27 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

We know Ned found out where Lyanna was after he arrived in the red keep and went to find her. Ergo someone in the red keep tipped him off.

Could you please state your textual evidence for this straight up full blown assumption. Infact, he went to Storms End after that, not to 'find her', but nevermind.

28 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Because the alternative that he spontaneously travelled to Starfall and was told by Ashara where to find her brother whom he intended to fight to the death if required is too daft.

Who said this was how it played out? Nobody, and to assume that is what is daft here. Its a possibility for sure, but nobody on this thread has ever stated that.

30 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

ETA: Another indicator that more people knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna than we are told is Hightower, Aerys sent him to bring Rhaegar back in order to lead the troops. Yet no one questions, if it were such and enormous secret at that point how on earth the Lord Commander found him?  

Rhaegar could not be found, as per Jaime, our man in KL the whole time. Gerold is sent to bring Rhaegar back but nowhere is it ever stated that he had this info when he left KL, as if it was readily available to him in KL. Its likely Aerys screamed something at him like "bring my son back!, find him!", but not, "Will you go to that damn tower he has been hanging around in with that wolf girl and bring him back already"!.

31 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Someone told, someone always tells. 

At least we agree on this, but the evidence is stacking up against it being somebody in KL.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, Megaera said:

Although, it's not impossible that Edric could overheard snippets of castle gossip that may make him think there was more to Jon's parentage which would explain his deflection when making to vow to Arya

Its good to see another person notice Edrics behaviour in that exchange.

What you say is true of course, that is possible. In any event it still means Edric has this doubt, which he could have brought to somebody and depending on who this person is they could have confirmed it to him. He is the Lord i suppose. Speculating here of course.

It would still end up meaning the same thing then, he knows.

[Macgregor of the North]

41 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Because the alternative that he spontaneously travelled to Starfall and was told by Ashara where to find her brother whom he intended to fight to the death if required is too daft

Remember GRRM has made it clear to us that Ashara wasnt nailed to the floor in Starfall the whole war, they have horses in Dorne, and boats to. He actually said those things you know. Yet more possibilities open up.

 

[Tini]

16 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think you are missing my point. 

Ned found out. There would be people in the Red Keep who knew. be it a servant who overheard, a house guard who was confided in. Varys, who uses his little birds. A lady in waiting who was with Rhaella but stayed in KL. there are many possibilities. 

My point is that I think a lot more people knew where Lyanna was than is generally accepted. Rhaegar had no reason to keep it a top secret thing once he returns to KL. The chances are the location was a secret to begin with because they were waiting for an obvious pregnancy before announcing they had married. (this was a real thing which people really did) It prevents anyone being able to declare the marriage unconsummated. Once she is expecting, and Rhaegar has returned to KL with a view to deposing his father and winning the war. Why would he need to keep it a secret? There is a good chance he would explain to certain people what he did, why, and what his plans are. We know he told Jaime he planed on making changes, we know Barristan knows Rhaegar truly loved her, we know Dany was told the story of how he carried Lyanna off at sword point and that this story was romanticised for her.  We know Ned found out where Lyanna was after he arrived in the red keep and went to find her. Ergo someone in the red keep tipped him off.

Because the alternative that he spontaneously travelled to Starfall and was told by Ashara where to find her brother whom he intended to fight to the death if required is too daft. Ashara has no reason to want to tell Ned anything, it wasn't him she got pregnant by. And Ned has no reason to travel to Starfall seeking information about Lyanna. And Arthur has no real reason to have told his sister where he was and who he was guarding or why. 

ETA: Another indicator that more people knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna than we are told is Hightower, Aerys sent him to bring Rhaegar back in order to lead the troops. Yet no one questions, if it were such and enormous secret at that point how on earth the Lord Commander found him?  

Someone told, someone always tells. 

Rhaegar never returned to King's Landing with a view to deposit his father. He returned at his father's summons, in order to lead the troops.

And unless I am totally mistaken, Rhaegar would've needed his father's permission to get married. One of the drawbacks of being heir to the Iron Throne. Without that permission, the marriage would've been invalid, pregnancy or not.

Gerrold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, and Oswell Whent were the King's Guard knights Ned Stark fought at the Tower of Joy. All three were loyal to Rhaegar, and may have been in on Rhaegar's plans from the start - Rhaegar needed reliable contacts in King's Landing. They wouldn't have told anyone else, though. So it's quite possible that even Aerys didn't know where Rhaegar was when he ordered Hightower to find him.

I wonder if Elia of Dorne knew. She knew of her husband's obsession with prophesy. Did she share it?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I think we are missing each others points if im honest.

I wholeheartedly believe he actually does. The location i mean. The more people who know his womans location and the location of his unborn third head of the dragon, the worse it is. Best keep that shit quiet is what hes thinking i believe.

Could you please state your textual evidence for this straight up full blown assumption. Infact, he went to Storms End after that, not to 'find her', but nevermind.

Who said this was how it played out? Nobody, and to assume that is what is daft here. Its a possibility for sure, but nobody on this thread has ever stated that.

Rhaegar could not be found, as per Jaime, our man in KL the whole time. Gerold is sent to bring Rhaegar back but nowhere is it ever stated that he had this info when he left KL, as if it was readily available to him in KL. Its likely Aerys screamed something at him like "bring my son back!, find him!", but not, "Will you go to that damn tower he has been hanging around in with that wolf girl and bring him back already"!.

At least we agree on this, but the evidence is stacking up against it being somebody in KL.

He has reason to keep it quiet, but I would not say secret. As I keep saying I think he likely told a few people. His mother, the remaining KG, maybe a trusted friend... And that it is likely some staff gained knowledge simply through the fact that the Red Keep is crawling with staff, and taht those he told likely also confided in at least one other person.  so it isn't a huge secret, but equally I'm not saying he went in there telling everyone and making public announcements. 

At this point he has his third head and I think has married Lyanna. I think he'd tell a select few. That is evidenced by the fact that Barristan and Danaerys know certain things about Lyanna which he has to have been the source of. ie: he really did love herand viewed her as HIS lady, and the romantic telling of how he took her off at sword point because he loved her. So someone conveyed that to Dany, and Barristan knows it first hand. so at least two people spoke with Rhaegar about Lyanna before his death. And one of those passed the story on to Danaerys and one presumes Viserys. people talk. 

Ned went to lift the siege at Storms end, and then he went to Dorne and arrived at the ToJ, somewhere he got information pertaining to her whereabouts. Now where is more likely? the Red Keep in Kings Landing where we know Rhaegar has been and discussed his love with at least two people. Or Storms End the stronghold of the Baratheon's being held siege by the Tyrells?  This is an assumption on my part yes. But logically the former is far more likely. 

Actually many people think that is how it played out.... In fact frequently when discussing how Ned found Lyanna, people simply say Ashara, reasons, yeah obvs... and expect that to be simply enough to end discussion.  

Exactly, somehow Hightower gleaned some knowledge about Rhaegar's location. My guess is one of those half dozen companionsor an associate of theirs. Again my point being someone told. 

If Gerold Hightower can locate the ToJ through knowledge about whom Rhaegar took with him when he went to "abduct" Lyanna, why can't Ned do the same? Maybe he was tipped off by someone in the Red Keep who heard it on the grape vine. Maybe someone whom one of the 6 spoke to, maybe even one of them. 

[Macgregor of the North]

51 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ashara has no reason to want to tell Ned anything, it wasn't him she got pregnant by.

You say things with such conviction i swear you must assume all your own theories must be true because you think them. Is that the way of it?

How could you possibly know for a fact that Ashara had no reason to want to tell Ned anything? She may have thought the man had suffered enough loss and wanted to help him. Thats just an example and is it that much of a stretch? Maybe it is if it doesnt align with a theory of your own?.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

9 minutes ago, Tini said:

Rhaegar never returned to King's Landing with a view to deposit his father. He returned at his father's summons, in order to lead the troops.

And unless I am totally mistaken, Rhaegar would've needed his father's permission to get married. One of the drawbacks of being heir to the Iron Throne. Without that permission, the marriage would've been invalid, pregnancy or not.

Gerrold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, and Oswell Whent were the King's Guard knights Ned Stark fought at the Tower of Joy. All three were loyal to Rhaegar, and may have been in on Rhaegar's plans from the start - Rhaegar needed reliable contacts in King's Landing. They wouldn't have told anyone else, though. So it's quite possible that even Aerys didn't know where Rhaegar was when he ordered Hightower to find him.

I wonder if Elia of Dorne knew. She knew of her husband's obsession with prophesy. Did she share it?

You are mistaken. There is precedent both in real life and in the novels themselves of people marrying against their parents or their kings wishes. And eloping and then hiding until a pregnancy results was a real tactic employed when a couple wish to marry and have no blessing. In book we have several examples. And no the marriage is not invalid. But this isn't a thread about if they wed or not.