Some thoughts and a question on Wylla, and a specific choice of wording by Edric.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

8 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Could you explain exactly what you mean in regards to this being a hint Brandon slept with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal.

It wasn't addreessed to me, but I agree with @The Weirwoods Eyes on this matter. This quote rather gives us some insight on Brandon's character. And later in AdwD we got some thoughts from Barbrey Dustin:

Quote

My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well.

This sounds more like a person who would sleep with a woman without thinking of consequences. But It is just my opinion.

But there are more questions. If Ned was so shy that he didn't dare to ask Ashara for dance, how could he suddenly become so bold to screw her soon afterwards. And why didn't Ned marry the girl he "dishonoured" especially if they liked each other so much. Ned Stark as we know would do it immediately.

[Macgregor of the North]

40 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Also do bear in mind that IF her daughter really was s/b she may have had PND and that doesn't mean you kill yourself right away, it could be that it took it's toll over the following year or so, and the loss of her brother tipped her over the edge. 

Except Barristan explicitly says that Asharas "daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after".

The Tourney was late sept/oct 281AC. The still born likely being mid 282AC. Ashara is known as alive right up until late 283AC when she apparaently 'suicides'. 

I hear what your saying but the "soon after" doesnt fit. Somethings up with Barristans thoughts and if there is anything deliberate from GRRM then it may well be to show that he actually doesnt know what hes talking about. We have to keep that small possibility open i guess.

I analyse lots of things, check this one out too. Barristan says that "If i had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?". How do you read this?

Are we to think that the big bad swaggering Brandon who takes what he wants, when he wants it, waited until after 5 days(and drunken nights that follow) of jousting to finally take the Lady Ashara? The whole Tourney was ten days iirc, the final joust may have even been the final spectacle. If not, its certainly quite a bit after the opening feast.

All the dancing and contact happens with Ashara at the opening feast. The character you paint of Brandon doesnt seem like a wait around type. And he certainly wasnt battling whether to hurt neds feelings or not, if he was gonna do it, it would have been opening feast night no?

Look, im just typing away now, ill chill back for a bit. Im not saying the Brandon theory is false, it has plenty promise but theres always a doubt in my mind with it.

[Macgregor of the North]

44 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I don't think it impossible that she told him

We are getting there.

44 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'd need some hints in text

There is hints in the text of a warmth between the two, even if it does end up being born out of Ned being an honourable type of comfort man after his brother dishonoured her.

45 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

or a passing comment from someone about how he went to Starfall twice

He doesnt have to have went to Starfall twice. GRRM has explicitly told us that Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall during the war, they have horses in Dorne, and boats to.

This is like holding up a big sign and saying that Ashara Dayne was on the move.

 How can you possibly rule out that they came into contact with each other away from Starfall?

[Macgregor of the North]

7 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

It wasn't addreessed to me, but I agree with @The Weirwoods Eyes on this matter. This quote rather gives us some insight on Brandon's character. And later in AdwD we got some thoughts from Barbrey Dustin:

This sounds more like a person who would sleep with a woman without thinking of consequences. But It is just my opinion.

But there are more questions. If Ned was so shy that he didn't dare to ask Ashara for dance, how could he suddenly become so bold to screw her soon afterwards. And why didn't Ned marry the girl he "dishonoured" especially if they liked each other so much. Ned Stark as we know would do it immediately.

Dont get me wrong AOW, im not going out of my way to debunk this theory even though it seems i am haha.

I just havent been able to properly 100% swallow it yet because of Barristans messed up thoughts. He doesnt convince me enough yet. But i agree with all that its very likely she slept with Brandon.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

It's the fact he goes on to say "You, Winterfell, Everything." You is in reference to Cat, and we know he loves her dearly, and the Everything kinda implies there is More that he's bitter about. As well as "Brandon would know what to do he always did." Well what did Ned not know how to do? He didn't know how to get the girls, Brandon always knew what do do though. We know that. 

I don't think this is some big explicit reveal at all, but rather one of those odd pieces of dialogue where later on the reader has an aha! moment and see's something small in it which hints at something they found out later on.  It is an odd thing for him to say, mixed in with perfectly logical stuff like, I wasn't meant to have to have this much responsibility, we have a bitterness and a reference to the woman he loves; Cat.  Ned ended up with Brandon's intended, might be he gets a certain kick and some revenge for Brandon bedding his crush all those years ago out of that fact.  The wording does imply Brandon always got Everything Ned wanted, after all we know from his sons how easy it is to want something you can't have- such as Winterfell itself. And as a younger sibling I can kinda see Ned's bitterness in the way you do grow up with a certain fuck you about the fact your older sibling got the lions share of everything whilst you got sidelined.  

I guess it's the reference to a woman he loves and that Everything at the end which make me wonder about his words here. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Dont get me wrong AOW, im not going out of my way to debunk this theory even though it seems i am haha.

I just havent been able to properly 100% swallow it yet because of Barristans messed up thoughts. He doesnt convince me enough yet. But i agree with all that its very likely she slept with Brandon.

I got your point. And it seems GRRM did a good job as we all have different opinion based on textual evidence (as we think). There were a few threads about Ashara and her baby and users argued themselves hoarse trying to figure out who was the father. I guess it will all make sense in the end when the new book comes out. Until then we are like Stannis in Storm's End sit, wait and bite onions.

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It's the fact he goes on to say "You, Winterfell, Everything." You is in reference to Cat, and we know he loves her dearly, and the Everything kinda implies there is More that he's bitter about. As well as "Brandon would know what to do he always did." Well what did Ned not know how to do? He didn't know how to get the girls, Brandon always knew what do do though. We know that. 

I don't think this is some big explicit reveal at all, but rather one of those odd pieces of dialogue where later on the reader has an aha! moment and see's something small in it which hints at something they found out later on.  It is an odd thing for him to say, mixed in with perfectly logical stuff like, I wasn't meant to have to have this much responsibility, we have a bitterness and a reference to the woman he loves; Cat.  Ned ended up with Brandon's intended, might be he gets a certain kick and some revenge for Brandon bedding his crush all those years ago out of that fact.  The wording does imply Brandon always got Everything Ned wanted, after all we know from his sons how easy it is to want something you can't have- such as Winterfell itself. And as a younger sibling I can kinda see Ned's bitterness in the way you do grow up with a certain fuck you about the fact your older sibling got the lions share of everything whilst you got sidelined.  

I guess it's the reference to a woman he loves and that Everything at the end which make me wonder about his words here. 

The everything could well mean whatever else Rickard had planned once all his southron ambitions were realised. We know there was a bigger picture there.

Ned Stark is not the type of person i dont think to get a certain kick (as you put it)out of getting Cat when Brandon should have got her. Whatevers going on here, i think you have wondered off track and are talking about a different person.

I think your missing the point of the context here. The conversation is all about Ned going south, Sanas betrothal, political intrigues, all major headaches for Ned. If hes bitter it may well be to say, Brandon, damn you! Why have you left me with all this! It was all meant for you, i want no part of it, i was not born to rule and deal with this. He even says "Kings hand", "Father to queens" etc.

If you dont think its a big explicit reveal why is there no inner dialogue ever from Ned that his brother took the girl he really really liked from him? If this part of the books you are talking about is in regards to Ashara then this would be a perfect time to place a bitter inner though about it no?

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Except Barristan explicitly says that Asharas "daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after".

The Tourney was late sept/oct 281AC. The still born likely being mid 282AC. Ashara is known as alive right up until late 283AC when she apparaently 'suicides'. 

I hear what your saying but the "soon after" doesnt fit. Somethings up with Barristans thoughts and if there is anything deliberate from GRRM then it may well be to show that he actually doesnt know what hes talking about. We have to keep that small possibility open i guess.

I analyse lots of things, check this one out too. Barristan says that "If i had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?". How do you read this?

Are we to think that the big bad swaggering Brandon who takes what he wants, when he wants it, waited until after 5 days(and drunken nights that follow) of jousting to finally take the Lady Ashara? The whole Tourney was ten days iirc, the final joust may have even been the final spectacle. If not, its certainly quite a bit after the opening feast.

All the dancing and contact happens with Ashara at the opening feast. The character you paint of Brandon doesnt seem like a wait around type. And he certainly wasnt battling whether to hurt neds feelings or not, if he was gonna do it, it would have been opening feast night no?

Look, im just typing away now, ill chill back for a bit. Im not saying the Brandon theory is false, it has plenty promise but theres always a doubt in my mind with it.

Well there are two people involved in sex, usually, it is a mutual activity, Brandons personality being gung ho doesn't mean Ashara dropped her knickers on day one. The Tourney was 10 days was it? maybe it took him 9 to get her to sleep with him, or maybe it took them 9 to find a bit of privacy. maybe Barristan doesn't know exactly when she and he did the deed only that he wishes in hind sight that he had somehow prevented it. Barristan is a bit delusional about Ashara here too IMO. He's romanticised her as a victim but for all we know she was the aggressor. He thinks if he'd won and impressed her and flattered her she might have been with him instead. But frankly if this is all it takes to bed a lass, then surely it ought to have been Rhaegar she sleeps, and don't laugh I've seen it argued that it was! He speaks of her as though she had no autonomy in the matter.  Brandon being a womaniser definitely gives heavy credence to him being Ashara's lover, but Ashara herself gets a say in the when and the where of it. And as Elia's handmaiden she had duties to perform, maybe that was the only time she could get away, and they could find a private spot for a tryst. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

snip

 

I just think it is a little evasive hint. GRRM does this a lot. when you re read tiny little seemingly meaningless lines suddenly stand out as being a bit more pertinent than you first thought. 

No biggy, just the way I've read it. It's the bitterness and the reference to Cat. The Everything. 

Ned's only human. 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well there are two people involved in sex, usually, it is a mutual activity, Brandons personality being gung ho doesn't mean Ashara dropped her knickers on day one. The Tourney was 10 days was it? maybe it took him 9 to get her to sleep with him, or maybe it took them 9 to find a bit of privacy

This goes against the big stud you have been painting though who just takes what he wants. Just sayin'.

2 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Barristan is a bit delusional about Ashara here too IMO.

Bigtime!

3 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Brandon being a womaniser definitely gives heavy credence to him being Ashara's lover, but Ashara herself gets a say in the when and the where of it. And as Elia's handmaiden she had duties to perform, maybe that was the only time she could get away, and they could find a private spot for a tryst. 

Yeah i hear ya etc etc but if we are to totally take Barberys words as a hint of his character then it is kind of misleading because it appears that Ashara turned to her Stark much later and if im perfectly honest, its never said that Brandon was the type to chase a girl for days and nights to get his wicked way does it? See where im coming from?

Look instead of debating for ages about this. Its cool though, i knew we would end up duking this out, its a fun topic. But since im not actively trying to debunk it just pointing out some doubts, ill try a different angle.

Ok, lets say Brandon was the "man who dishonoured her" (which incidentally Barristan NEVER mentions is the "Stark" ). Lets say she turns to Ned after the final tilt for comfort on the matter, or its Ned who steps up to take her feelings into consideration. 

In this scenario i suppose, any man at the tourney could have dishonoured her, but she turns to Ned at the end. Just because Barristan says "Stark" and doesnt say the first name, its not necessraily meaning he is seeing the Stark in a negative light, its more likely because GRRM, doesnt wanna actually spell it out in capitals for us.

Food for though, or maybe im just making things difficult lol. 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

No biggy, just the way I've read it

Cool. Even if/when its revealed Brandon dishonoured her i just personally dont think that part of the book hints at in the slightest.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

22 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I guess it will all make sense in the end when the new book comes out

I hope so. I mean Allyria will have to come into it and play a part for the Brandon/Ashara thing to have real impact will it not?

I remember that when it was just AGOT-AFFC before ADWD, the impact was there of Ned returning the sword to the woman he loved and who loved him, but he had killed her brother, his own sister, father and brother had died. But he couldnt be wth her because he had a wife and was duty bound to her so he returned North with his bastard and left Ashara in her grief.

Fair enough, it sounds a bit neat but its really tragic and moving shit.

Now, GRRM has changed the game, and while im super cool with it, i just hope it all amounts to something just as moving and tragic, and not just more layered and messy for the sake of it. You know what i mean?  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This goes against the big stud you have been painting though who just takes what he wants. Just sayin'.

Bigtime!

Yeah i hear ya etc etc but if we are to totally take Barberys words as a hint of his character then it is kind of misleading because it appears that Ashara turned to her Stark much later and if im perfectly honest, its never said that Brandon was the type to chase a girl for days and nights to get his wicked way does it? See where im coming from?

Look instead of debating for ages about this. Its cool though, i knew we would end up duking this out, its a fun topic. But since im not actively trying to debunk it just pointing out some doubts, ill try a different angle.

Ok, lets say Brandon was the "man who dishonoured her" (which incidentally Barristan NEVER mentions is the "Stark" ). Lets say she turns to Ned after the final tilt for comfort on the matter, or its Ned who steps up to take her feelings into consideration. 

In this scenario i suppose, any man at the tourney could have dishonoured her, but she turns to Ned at the end. Just because Barristan says "Stark" and doesnt say the first name, its not necessraily meaning he is seeing the Stark in a negative light, its more likely because GRRM, doesnt wanna actually spell it out in capitals for us.

Food for though, or maybe im just making things difficult lol. 

that's not a stud, that's a rapist. 

Hmm, I'm obviously not aware of your own sexuality, so I have no idea if you have been chased by men like the type Brandon is described as. But in my experience that is exactly what they do, they chase like mad for as long as it takes, often quite aggressively, and once you finally cave in and sleep with them they never so much as smile your way ever again. The thrill is in the conquest. I think sometimes it's even better for their ego when it has taken them a while to ware you down. 

I don't think she and Ned had any contact beyond that dance Brandon asked for. I think the turned to Stark means she had sex with the Stark Barristan is referencing, as he seems to think the outcome for her would be different if she had turned to him, not Stark. If that outcome was not her pregnancy what exactly is Barristan imagining he could have saved her from? And he certainly had less chance than Ned of marrying her to save her honour. If She turned to Ned for some compensation at having been left ruined by a man who could not wed her, and he agreed to wed her, Why were they not married immediately? as surely that would have saved her honour entirely? No one need ever know she slept with Brandon. And if she turned to Ned and he turned her down, that isn't exactly going to foster this fondness that you think was between them. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

that's not a stud, that's a rapist. 

Woah! Nobody said that, chill! He took what he wanted from Barbery but never raped her. I'll reply to the rest soon but had to get that outta the way. I dont think Brandon raped Ashara but this big stud picture everybody paints doesnt have him chasing her for like ten days does it?.

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But in my experience that is exactly what they do, they chase like mad for as long as it takes, often quite aggressively, and once you finally cave in and sleep with them they never so much as smile your way ever again.

You dont have to talk about it if it still stings. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Woah! Nobody said that, chill! He took what he wanted from Barbery but never raped her. I'll reply to the rest soon but had to get that outta the way. I dont think Brandon raped Ashara but this big stud picture everybody paints doesnt have him chasing her for like ten days does it?.

But even a stud can't just take what he wants when he wants, he has to seduce, to chase, to flirt and to coerce. Maybe Barbrey wanted him as soon as he began showing an interest, or maybe it took him months to bed her. 

I don't recall if she gives a timeline. But the impression I get about Brandon is that he's a womaniser, and that means he enjoys the chase. If Ashara was receptive but hesitant to go all the way, he'd keep pursuing that until he got what he wanted.  It doesn't mean he was james bond level irresistible and she invited him back to her tent for a night cap after one conversation and a turn round the dance floor. Maybe She was up for a tumble as soon as he smiled at her. Maybe it took several night of heavy petting round the back of the hog roast marquee to get her to agree to penetration. 

Barristan thinks she turned to Stark and he might have prevented that had he impressed her and crowned her QOL&B. But I'm certain he has no idea when or where they did the deed. They might have been at it like rabbits every night of the Tourney for all he knew. He's simply romanticising events to think he could have been her hero.

 

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You dont have to talk about it if it still stings. 

hahaha, not at all. But experience & discussion with other women tells me this is a common thing. Brandon is a type and that type is a cock sure prick.  Fun for a night but don't expect a follow up. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

13 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Now, GRRM has changed the game, and while im super cool with it, i just hope it all amounts to something just as moving and tragic, and not just more layered and messy for the sake of it. You know what i mean?  

ADWD is messed enough for me. But with two books left the things should become more clear not more complicated, don't they? That is why I'm waiting for more revelations.

[Macgregor of the North]

@The Weirwoods Eyes

Im back on my phone so can't quite quote as well. Grr.

I have never gotten the impression he was a womaniser and loves the chase. I got the impression he is an irrational nutcase who acts before he thinks! Nothing calculated about him, just a wild wolf who went for what he wanted and if Ashara never wanted to give it up, he would have gotten bored and moved on. 

Not all men are like that who waste tons of time just to get into a woman's small clothes(the term is an attempt to keep us in the WOIAF here lol). Some will try, if it's not happening, then see ya!. 

Anyways, I don't think Brandon is that chase you around to finally sleep with you type, he just expects to get it, if not, then fuck you, type of thing. 

In regards to Barristans wording it's worded to imply she turned to Stark after the tilt but tbh it could be different. 

 In regards to you saying "the fondness I think there was between them", as in Ned and Ashara. I believe there was enough of a mutual respect between them that she would have told Ned where to find his sister. I don't know why your blinded to that but I'll find a way to convince ya. 

And in regards to whether Ned could have married Ashara but never, we can look further into that. Lots of factors could have came into it. I'll take the discussion in that direction possibly, and try and prove that she could easily have told Ned where Lyanna was. 

The Brandon thing I'll leave for the next books, it's not something I'm actively trying to squash, just wanted to point out a few doubts and holes, but if I'm honest, I think GRRM has indeed likely made his mind up Brandon will be the dishonourable fella. Although I'll wait before i pledge my undying belief of it.

[Macgregor of the North]

16 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

ADWD is messed enough for me. But with two books left the things should become more clear not more complicated, don't they? That is why I'm waiting for more revelations.

I wouldn't be surprised if things become more complicated.

I love the books, anybody who talks to me knows that of course. But I do wonder if he has spun too many webs and that he won't be able to make as much clear by the end of it as we would all like.

Dont get me wrong, I actually want mysteries left open that we can debate until we're all old as fuck! Mysteries that have different interpretations and all that, great stuff!.

But, I just hope there's not too much and most things become clear enough to be left satisfied. You get me?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@Macgregor of the North

I just don't see any reason to think there is this fondness for Ned coming from Ashara. She danced with him only at Brandons request. And we have the rumour of Starfall that Ashra and Ned were in love. BUT that rumour comes third hand from Ned Dayne, and we have no idea how much the story has been altered over the years. Maybe The story he got told was that Ashara was in love with Lord Starks son, and that he had been heir to Winterfell and 12 year old Ned takes that to mean Ned Stark, unaware there was ever an older brother? 

And then he hears Wylla is Jon Snow's mother and assumes that Ned was involved with both of them, the tale is nonsensical though if you think on it. Ned and Ashara were in love, but he beds the castles wet nurse? What, why? and if that were the case why is Ned Dayne named for him? according to this tale the man must have broken his aunts heart. That isn't a reason to name the heir after him. 

But beyond this extremely unlikely and hazey rumour and the fact she danced with him after being asked to by Brandon we have nothing to go on.