Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Ygrain, there are many fine minds here who have thought about this for years, yourself included.  Not everyone agrees. I'm not asking you to defend your position.  Robert Baratheon would be the most unexpected, unpopular choice, that nobody saw coming.  It appeals to me on that score.  I'm convinced by the arguments that have been made that Robert is on the table.

Well, but you claimed something as facts and I raised objections to your particular points. This has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement with the general theories.

[Ygrain]

22 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

A good mistery author makes at least 3 highways to it's destiny, and more often than not the fastest one has a stop sign close to the end... 

Not saying this is the case, but i've read it before, and Robert surely isn't the fastest road despite being present in jon's chapters as much as rhaegar on dany's... but i'm too lazy to formulate a thesis, i'm more a topic-by-topic guy... i have my gut feeling and it's enough fun for me

Fast or not, the road needs to be marked in some way, or else we end up with Anakin murdering children because of a nightmare and a skipped promotion, to continue the SW analogy.

[wolfmaid7]

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The underlined is incorrect. You can arrive at exactly the same conclusion, i.e. X being in love with Y, based on the way X talks about Y. Which is what Ned does, because we know he and Robert spent a lot of time together, whereas there is zero confirmation of Robert spending any time with Lyanna except HH, where they are not shown interacting.

The underline is very much correct and your point  undermines your entire argument.

1. It makes no sense for Ned to come to that conclusion based on Robert just talking about Lyanna ;you know the same person you claim Robert never spent time with in the first place.

Ygrain come one now really?

2. It can be gleaned from the text that they did spend time together based on what Robert and Ned inferred.Hell based on Lyanna's own statement.

Quote

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." 

Not,Robert Baratheon,not Lord Robert but Robert.That denotes familiarity.

Quote

"The talk is you and the queen had angry words last night."
The mirth curdled on Robert's face. "The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She's sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that."

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."

The man spent time with her,he knew what and how she wouldn't do something.Then we have Ned's reply qualifying their relationship wth Lyanna.
 

20 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Widely accepted history can be true or false. You give examples of what is widely known is not, at least, the full truth, if not an outright lie. We know this is the case because we, as readers, read the different accounts of how this history was made. So, it is very true to say we know a Tyrell/Baelish plot killed Joffrey, not Tyrion and Sansa. And we know the role Tyrion played at the Battle of the Blackwater, even if official history makes little mark of it. We know this because of the abundant evidence the widely held history is wrong in some way.

None of that applies to Rhaegar and Lyanna going off together - either by force or mutual consent. Here we have not only universal acknowledgement that the event occurred, but that it involved the two individuals in question. But most importantly, we lack any evidence to the contrary. There is nothing other than conjecture to say it did not happen. We can say, "oh, maybe Tywin was involved? He's a nasty player capable of doing something and pinning it on someone else." But that is conjecture, not evidence. We can rewrite the story to fit our fan fiction all we want, but unless one has evidence to base it on, it is all speculation and crackpot speculation at that.

Let me end with this, it is very, very unlikely that the "kidnapping" wasn't witnessed by someone. Unless, Lyanna runs away on her own and accidentally runs into her kidnapper, it is very likely some one was there with her. Daughters of High Lords of Westeros do not usually travel unaccompanied by guards, or some sort of escort. The story is she was taken at swordpoint. Who were those swords pointed at? Somebody told that story, and that somebody was likely a witness. The story gets back to Brandon who believes Rhaegar is involved and goes to King's Landing demanding a duel. The fact he doesn't yell for Lyanna to be returned tells us something, but it doesn't tell us he doesn't think Rhaegar was involved. All of which is another way of saying we have abundant evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were involved in some fashion, and nothing as yet to contradict that account.

So, please stop, stop mixing up stories we have clear evidence are untrue with one in which we have no evidence that it's bare bones are not true - Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark ran off together - and we have a great amount of evidence saying it is. The details of the story are the mystery, not the basic facts.

SFDanny the part that i scratched out is exactly the kind of thing i mean when i say perception is being fracked with.It is not a matter of some secret knowledge we the readers have over the characters.In none of these cases with Joff's death and Tyrion's contribution was these things done in secret. Tyrion gave a speech to how many hundreds of men,even Stannis acknowledged that it was the Imp who defeated him honors still nwent to Tywin. History will still record it as Tywin's victory no matter how many people witnessed otherwise.But we still got people who were eye witnessed to the event giving props to Tyrion.

Lady Olenna employed slight of hand in front of everyone close enough to see it.Sansa did but may have been to dim to realize what was going on.Plus,the outcome of the entire ordeal catapulted the Tyrell's into a more amicable position.What happened,who was there and who benefited?

It very much applies to Rhaegar and Lyanna .You can scream from the mountain tops that its conjecture but it not.Solid evidence has been put fort.Physical and from a behavioral point of view from both Lyanna and Rhaegar that shows neither of them would do this.When this is mention all we get back is:

1.Love makes people do stupid things

2.Lyanna and Rhaegar was such a unique case it was love at first sight and neither thought it through.

The list goes on and on with this.

For all the things that people know,no one actually seem to know anything.From Harrenhall to toj nobody saw nothing.No one mentions seeing the Prince stop at a inn to water his horse,or the KGs buying fish pies or anything.

3.No matter what you say,the behavior of those who loved her most were completely off,but that means nothing at all.

I'm saying perception screws up objectivity and people see what they want to see.

We don't know what Brandon heard regarding Lyanna,what ever it is he didn't demand his sister.If as you say she was taken by sword point and somebody saw then duhhhh he would have demanded his sister back.So either way the unreliable narrator is in play and the entire thing is suspect including Brandon's reaction. 

So please you stop telling me to not do something i am not.We have clear evidence of the unreliable narrator in play.Until GRRM says otherwise ...Yuh going to have to deal with it or not.That's your choice.

 

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

There doesn't seem to be any way to confirm whether or not Rhaegar or Robert loved Lyanna. 

 

For me this is a slam dunk we see Robert's love for Lyanna,we hear accounts from insiders with stories to tell.We get none of this for Rhaegar at all.

12 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

A good mistery author makes at least 3 highways to it's destiny, and more often than not the fastest one has a stop sign close to the end... 

Not saying this is the case, but i've read it before, and Robert surely isn't the fastest road despite being present in jon's chapters as much as rhaegar on dany's... but i'm too lazy to formulate a thesis, i'm more a topic-by-topic guy... i have my gut feeling and it's enough fun for me

Yep and the signposts for Robert are many and varied.

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, but you claimed something as facts and I raised objections to your particular points. This has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement with the general theories.

No I said that I gave more weight to Ned's POV and private thoughts since he is the only character in story that I can be relatively sure knows the identity of Jon's parents.  And I interpret them with the lens that Robert could very well be Jon's father, which is not an unreasonable assumption. 

As far as the SW analogy goes, it seems that Jaime and Cersei would fit the bill more closely with mad Aerys as father; whom Jaime does slay and loses his hand. Not to mention the thing he has for his twin sister.  Although Aerys isn't the kind of monster who fits the Annikin character type and I'm not sure who the mystery wizard standing in for Palpatine would be.  Aerys would be his creation.   There's Varys who isn't exactly the grandfatherly type. 

 

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Fast or not, the road needs to be marked in some way, or else we end up with Anakin murdering children because of a nightmare and a skipped promotion, to continue the SW analogy.

We differ on the sign posts.

[wolfmaid7]

59 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Fast or not, the road needs to be marked in some way, or else we end up with Anakin murdering children because of a nightmare and a skipped promotion, to continue the SW analogy.

And it is Ygrain but as @LynnS put it and done so perfectly ...Our views differ on the sign posts which is basically what these debates highlight and it is our understanding and interpretations of clues that have us diverging.

We will pick up heading out the door in a bit.

[kimim]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Close as brothers, but not brothers. Since Ned is adamant that Jon is his (stark) blood; that makes Lyanna the mother.  That makes Rob and Jon cousins. And since Ned is comparing Jon and Rob to himself and Robert; I think this points to Robert as Jon's father.

Ned is the only character we can be certain knows Jon's parentage. This repeated reference to his own relationship with Robert would exclude Rhaegar's offspring from that relationship.

The paragraph you're talking about is from Dance, and there is no "repeated reference" to Robert there. "Close as brothers," under these circumstances, is unlikely to point specifically to Robert or anyone else as father. Ned might hope that any child he's brought to WF to be raised (almost) as a son will be "close as brothers" with Robb. If Lyanna is the mother of this child, then anyone can be the father, as Lyanna is Ned's sister.

Other than the fact that there is no evidence Lyanna was fond of Robert, Rhaegar as father works better in light of Ned's experiences with Robert shortly before he finds Lyanna. After the sack of KL, Ned discovers that Robert accepts the murders of Rhaegar's children, for revenge and for political purposes:

Quote

Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn."

Ned leaves KL "in a cold rage." He finds his sister, dying after giving birth to a child. So he hides that child, lying to everyone.

We know from Game that lying is wildly out of character for Ned. Something about this child's parentage is driving Ned to act in ways that are alien to him. Robert as the father is not enough of a reason. Rhaegar as the father is sufficient: Robert would not think twice about killing Rhaegar's son, the way he has no problems ordering Dany's assassination. This is why Ned hides Joffrey's parentage from Robert. Robert is kind to his own bastards, but when he sees a child as a threat or betrayal, he has no compunctions about killing them.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Robert is talking about Joffrey; but Ned thinks he cannot lie to Robert on his deathbed; but then remembers that he can lie by omission when he recalls all of Roberts other bastards and can avoid telling him about Jon.

Ned is not thinking of Jon, but Joffrey. He's considering whether or not he should break the ugly news about Cersei and Jaime's abominations to Robert on his deathbed. Being a kind man, Ned decides to lie:

Quote

"Robert …" Joffrey is not your son, he wanted to say, but the words would not come. The agony was written too plainly across Robert's face; he could not hurt him more. So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said "my son Joffrey," he scrawled "my heir" instead. The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me. "What else would you have me say?"

Robert later asks Ned to take care of his children: "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me." The words "twisted in Ned's belly like a knife," not because Ned's thinking of Jon as Robert's bastard, but because Ned's thinking about Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen, abominations of incest whom Ned has no intention to "take care" of. Ned's already decided to hide the incest from Robert, so he's searching for ways to be honest with his friend on his deathbed. So he promises to "guard" Robert's bastards as "his own," as the bastards are at least truly Robert's children. The context, again, in not Jon, but Robert's true and false children, and Ned's terrible decision, born out of compassion, to first lie to his friend in order to save the kids, and then to lie to his friend in order to save him from having to deal with such a thing on his deathbed.

Jon becomes one of these bastards only if you have already decided that Jon is Robert's bastard. There is nothing here to create a natural link with Jon as Robert's bastard.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

plus there is the HotU scene of whispering Lyanna's name with his dying breath

Whaaa?

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, kimim said:

The paragraph you're talking about is from Dance, and there is no "repeated reference" to Robert there. "Close as brothers," under these circumstances, is unlikely to point specifically to Robert or anyone else as father

Here's a few quotes that support it in my view:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard III

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady, I'll make her be good, I promise, I promise …" She started to cry.

All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

"He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Can't you see the danger that would put us in?"

Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. "Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!"

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard III

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady, I'll make her be good, I promise, I promise …" She started to cry.

All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."

 

 

[Ygrain]

52 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Whaaa?

That part about a dying prince from whose chest rubies flew around (i.e., Rhaegar, because no-one else is described as havng his sigil wrought in rubies on his chestplate) and who whispered a woman's name. That name was confirmed by GRRM in an unrecorded interview as Lyanna (Ran vouched for the info). Saying the name of one dear is a common literary device.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

No I said that I gave more weight to Ned's POV and private thoughts since he is the only character in story that I can be relatively sure knows the identity of Jon's parents.  And I interpret them with the lens that Robert could very well be Jon's father, which is not an unreasonable assumption. 

And it is Ned's PoV stating that Robert loved Lyanna, so why did you say there was no confirmation?

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

As far as the SW analogy goes, it seems that Jaime and Cersei would fit the bill more closely with mad Aerys as father; whom Jaime does slay and loses his hand. Not to mention the thing he has for his twin sister.  Although Aerys isn't the kind of monster who fits the Annikin character type and I'm not sure who the mystery wizard standing in for Palpatine would be.  Aerys would be his creation.   There's Varys who isn't exactly the grandfatherly type. 

You have missed the point of the analogy

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Here's a few quotes that support it in my view:

Your quotes support that Ned and Robert were very close. One can speculate whether it might mean that Ned didn't get on with his brothers all that fabulously, or that he had a mancrush on Robert, but it has no relation to Jon's paternity. If you bring home a child that is not yours and have him grow up with your own son who is of an age, the wish that the two are close as brothers is very natural, especially if you have experienced such a bond with someone yourself.

[wolfmaid7]

@Ygrain Sorry but what! If this is true then it counts as an ssm.So where's the link so readers can see it and the circumstances surrounding it?

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And it is Ned's PoV stating that Robert loved Lyanna, so why did you say there was no confirmation?

 I don't know what you mean.  Martin hasn't confirmed anything yet as far as I know.  That will come in the next book I expect.

 

 

[Ygrain]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 I don't know what you mean.  Martin hasn't confirmed anything yet as far as I know.  That will come in the next book I expect.

I honestly fail to see what you mean. A trustworthy PoV stated that Robert loved Lyanna, so what do you need Martin to confirm?

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I honestly fail to see what you mean. A trustworthy PoV stated that Robert loved Lyanna, so what do you need Martin to confirm?

Robert does say that over and over. I meant that at some point Martin will reveal Jon's lineage. 

[maudisdottir]

If Jon was older, as in running around babbling when he should have been a squalling newborn - why would Ned need to lie to Cat that he fathered him during the rebellion?  If Jon is months older then Ned's off the hook, and can bring him back to Winterfell with a clear conscience that he fathered the child long before he was betrothed to Catelyn.  She still wouldn't be happy that he is openly raising his bastard, but at least his infidelity doesn't shame her because they weren't a couple when the baby was conceived.

[LynnS]

55 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

If Jon was older, as in running around babbling when he should have been a squalling newborn - why would Ned need to lie to Cat that he fathered him during the rebellion?  If Jon is months older then Ned's off the hook, and can bring him back to Winterfell with a clear conscience that he fathered the child long before he was betrothed to Catelyn.  She still wouldn't be happy that he is openly raising his bastard, but at least his infidelity doesn't shame her because they weren't a couple when the baby was conceived.

What do you think it means Maudisdottir?  Why do you think Ned lied?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Me too!  Now on the subject of the missing head ....  um, let's see...  maple syrup? ....  christmas socks?

Christmas syrup or maple socks i guess...

Robert's head would make sense by a cersei pov and it would be creeeepy as heck, well she does sleep in the bed he died... 

GRRM is a benevolent troll imo... in the text is written he loved lya more than ned did and that ned knew her sister better (not one knew the other did not) than bob, yet he writes stuff that makes the reader think his love was false and that he didn´t knew her truly (despite the text) by actions such as the infamous "cheating" on Lyanna by "operating" in the whorehouse at SS...

Then Bella comes with a story just to add fuel to the fire... operation troll initiated...

Then we read the appendix in ADWD... Robert Baratheon, bla bla bla... his bastard children: Mya, Gendry, Edric and Barra... all named bastards in the story... no Bella, because having dark hair and blue eyes isn´t a baratheon exclusive nor telling a story makes it true... saying bob banged the brothel is great for business at the time that he's king, but a seriously wounded guy can hardly (no pun intended) get it on, not even the "horned god"

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That part about a dying prince from whose chest rubies flew around (i.e., Rhaegar, because no-one else is described as havng his sigil wrought in rubies on his chestplate) and who whispered a woman's name. That name was confirmed by GRRM in an unrecorded interview as Lyanna (Ran vouched for the info). Saying the name of one dear is a common literary device.

And it is Ned's PoV stating that Robert loved Lyanna, so why did you say there was no confirmation?

You have missed the point of the analogy

Your quotes support that Ned and Robert were very close. One can speculate whether it might mean that Ned didn't get on with his brothers all that fabulously, or that he had a mancrush on Robert, but it has no relation to Jon's paternity. If you bring home a child that is not yours and have him grow up with your own son who is of an age, the wish that the two are close as brothers is very natural, especially if you have experienced such a bond with someone yourself.

You said that there was a vision in the House of the Undying where Rhaegar says Lyanna's name. I replied "whaaa?" because that scene is not portrayed during Danny's visit. 

I've been trying to find the passage where someone comments that Rhaegar died with the name on his lips and cannot locate. By chance do you have it handy?

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Christmas syrup or maple socks i guess...

Robert's head would make sense by a cersei pov and it would be creeeepy as heck, well she does sleep in the bed he died... 

GRRM is a benevolent troll imo... in the text is written he loved lya more than ned did and that ned knew her sister better (not one knew the other did not) than bob, yet he writes stuff that makes the reader think his love was false and that he didn´t knew her truly (despite the text) by actions such as the infamous "cheating" on Lyanna by "operating" in the whorehouse at SS...

Then Bella comes with a story just to add fuel to the fire... operation troll initiated...

Then we read the appendix in ADWD... Robert Baratheon, bla bla bla... his bastard children: Mya, Gendry, Edric and Barra... all named bastards in the story... no Bella, because having dark hair and blue eyes isn´t a baratheon exclusive nor telling a story makes it true... saying bob banged the brothel is great for business at the time that he's king, but a seriously wounded guy can hardly (no pun intended) get it on, not even the "horned god"

I must be clear by now that I have no treasure to offer on a bet, unless you'd consider home made fudge. 

I'm hoping wildly that the grandfatherly, kindly old man Qyburn-Palpatine has attached Schmobert's head to Clegane's body (I think I'm going to scream) in a grotesque reverse mockery of the red wedding piece de resistance:  Grey Wolf's head on Robb Stark's body.    The masked Vader-ish Robert Strong who never sleeps or changes out of his armor.  What a surprise for Cersei!    If Martin hasn't already thought of it; I'd like to recommend it.  I didn't think anything could get worse than Ramsey; but I've been wrong before about that.

Speaking of Ramsey; should Rickon ever show up again; I wouldn't bet on Ramsey controlling his hell hounds anymore.  Woe to Ramsey.

[wolfmaid7]

 

10 hours ago, kimim said:

The paragraph you're talking about is from Dance, and there is no "repeated reference" to Robert there. "Close as brothers," under these circumstances, is unlikely to point specifically to Robert or anyone else as father. Ned might hope that any child he's brought to WF to be raised (almost) as a son will be "close as brothers" with Robb. If Lyanna is the mother of this child, then anyone can be the father, as Lyanna is Ned's sister.

Other than the fact that there is no evidence Lyanna was fond of Robert, Rhaegar as father works better in light of Ned's experiences with Robert shortly before he finds Lyanna. After the sack of KL, Ned discovers that Robert accepts the murders of Rhaegar's children, for revenge and for political purposes:

Ned leaves KL "in a cold rage." He finds his sister, dying after giving birth to a child. So he hides that child, lying to everyone.

We know from Game that lying is wildly out of character for Ned. Something about this child's parentage is driving Ned to act in ways that are alien to him. Robert as the father is not enough of a reason. Rhaegar as the father is sufficient: Robert would not think twice about killing Rhaegar's son, the way he has no problems ordering Dany's assassination. This is why Ned hides Joffrey's parentage from Robert. Robert is kind to his own bastards, but when he sees a child as a threat or betrayal, he has no compunctions about killing them.

Ned is not thinking of Jon, but Joffrey. He's considering whether or not he should break the ugly news about Cersei and Jaime's abominations to Robert on his deathbed. Being a kind man, Ned decides to lie:

Robert later asks Ned to take care of his children: "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me." The words "twisted in Ned's belly like a knife," not because Ned's thinking of Jon as Robert's bastard, but because Ned's thinking about Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen, abominations of incest whom Ned has no intention to "take care" of. Ned's already decided to hide the incest from Robert, so he's searching for ways to be honest with his friend on his deathbed. So he promises to "guard" Robert's bastards as "his own," as the bastards are at least truly Robert's children. The context, again, in not Jon, but Robert's true and false children, and Ned's terrible decision, born out of compassion, to first lie to his friend in order to save the kids, and then to lie to his friend in order to save him from having to deal with such a thing on his deathbed.

Jon becomes one of these bastards only if you have already decided that Jon is Robert's bastard. There is nothing here to create a natural link with Jon as Robert's bastard.

I'll throw some light on this.

If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as
affection."-Got pg.51. 

"Robert will never harm me or mine,we were closer than brothers.-Got.Pg 59.

"You say you love Robert like a brother,would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannister?"-Got.Pg 63.

"He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister.Please."-Got.pg 158-159.

"What's happened he(Jon) asked."The King is dead<snip>
"Jon,I'm sorry, he was your father's friend wasn't he?
"They were close as brothers once."Got pg 559-560

Now let's look at this repeated theme in light of the below:

but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”<snip>

We see this repeated theme of how close Robert and Ned were...Closer than or close as brothers. Baratheon and Stark.We see Ned praying a prayer and hoping that "they" grow up as close as brothers with love between them.Wishing Robb and Jon had the same relationship he and Robert had.

We even for a bit of connectivity we have Jon himself evoking the phrase.

8 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

If Jon was older, as in running around babbling when he should have been a squalling newborn - why would Ned need to lie to Cat that he fathered him during the rebellion?  If Jon is months older then Ned's off the hook, and can bring him back to Winterfell with a clear conscience that he fathered the child long before he was betrothed to Catelyn.  She still wouldn't be happy that he is openly raising his bastard, but at least his infidelity doesn't shame her because they weren't a couple when the baby was conceived.

First,off what? running around babbling!!

Secondly,Ned didn't lie to Cat about Jon's age.He said nothing about that or when he fathered Jon to Cat.All he told Cat was "Jon is my blood that is all you need to know."

We can retrospectively look at Bran's vision of Ned praying at the Heartree and get a better perspective of what happened regarding this.

but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive me."

From this its safe to say Ned was already at Winterfell with Jon and Cat had yet to arrive.That is is saying "let his wife forgive him," means he hadn't told her anything about Jon at that point.

Cat may have found out about Jon before she arrived at WF,but what she knows is either based on the rumor mill or she found out about Jon when she arrived at WF. At which point when she couldn't take it anymore and she asked about Jon she got that famous reply " He is my blood and that's all you need to know."

Cat didn't that Ned fathered a child or when.She cared that he brought Jon home to live with them.That was the affront.She said it herself,her mind wasn't on Ned and what he was doing and who he was doing it with.Her mind was on Robb. She doesn't care about if he was cheating.

And again what she knows and how she knew it didn't come form Ned,so even she has no point of reference that is from te horses mouth at that time.

 

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That part about a dying prince from whose chest rubies flew around (i.e., Rhaegar, because no-one else is described as havng his sigil wrought in rubies on his chestplate) and who whispered a woman's name. That name was confirmed by GRRM in an unrecorded interview as Lyanna (Ran vouched for the info). Saying the name of one dear is a common literary device.

You know what the difference between your bold and the below is?

Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, <snip>. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.—Ned,GoT, pg. 480.------

I am 100% sure Robert whispered Lyanna's name..Eye witness who was there telling us about it.I have context and circumstance

Yours: I got nothing,no context no circumstances and coincidentally it "wasn't recorded"So i don't even know how it happened and if it did.