Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

[Voice]

13 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Only if we accept your definition of what Lyanna's values regarding marriage were. We know she didn't like the idea of being married to Robert at least in part because he would lie and have sex with other women (all proven true) but we don't know what she would think about a polygamous marriage - with all the many variations of what such a marriage could mean. We don't even know if she wanted any marriage of any type.

The hypocrisy is in accepting the rules you imply, but doing something else. That describes Robert. It doesn't necessarily describe Lyanna and what she believed. 

 

 

Funny, but I am only reminding the thread of Lyanna's convictions regarding vows of betrothal and marriage. We know what they were. We know she did not swoon for men who do not keep to one bed, and take advantage of some girl while siring a bastard. Yet, for RLJ to be true, Rhaegar would have had to have done these things. It is a rather simple paradox. 

Rather than attempt to rationalize her protest to make it fit into a preferred theory, why not begin with that protest as the framework of a theory?

People focus far too much on Rhaegar/Arthur/Robert/sperm donor, and use the man's ambitions as the foundation of the theory. Lyanna's voice is either dismissed, rationalized, or treated as anecdotal. That is a fundamental mistake, in my opinion. 

The woman matters too (if not more), and it is my belief that any theory which proposes Jon's mother is actually Lyanna Stark, should begin with Lyanna Stark's character and convictions. 

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

The hypocrisy is in accepting the rules you imply, but doing something else. That describes Robert. It doesn't necessarily describe Lyanna and what she believed. 

The "hypocrisy" angle is more valid than the polygamy angle since Lyanna has already stated she was concerned Robert wouldn't keep to one bed. Obviously if R+L is true, then Rhaegar is also such a man, no different than Robert in that he didn't keep to just one bed.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

I was going to respond to that post (very cool stuff!) but I thought the thread might get locked before I could do it. I will when @wolfmaid7 opens a new thread for sure. 

But I sure hope GRRM isn't going with divine conception or midi-chlorians. LOL

LOL.  I'm not a devoted practioner; but even the church recognizes that christ had a biological father; the one to which Mary was originally betrothed.  Her 'virginity' comes from being without sin; described as 'a woman of surpassing holiness'.

[Voice]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL.  I'm not a devoted practioner; but even the church recognizes that christ had a biological father; the one to which Mary was originally betrothed. 

 

In that case, the Church is far more educated than its sacred text. 

 

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Her 'virginity' comes from being without sin;

 

An interesting rationalization, if she had sex before marriage. 

 

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

described as 'a woman of surpassing holiness'.

 

Now this I like.  

The imagery is certainly there. Red and blue. Sacred and profane. Pure, yet bloody. 

[SFDanny]

46 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The "hypocrisy" angle is more valid than the polygamy angle since Lyanna has already stated she was concerned Robert wouldn't keep to one bed. Obviously if R+L is true, then Rhaegar is also such a man, no different than Robert in that he didn't keep to just one bed.

Just for an example, how is it hypocritical to object to infidelity of a supposedly monogamous marriage partner, and then to be in a polygamous marriage in which it is agreed two of the partners are monogamous and the other is not sexually involved with either of them? Not that we know this is the case, but as an example.

Or how is it hypocritical to have the same objections, but enter into polygamous marriage with the agreement of all parties that sex would be restricted to only those in the marriage? Aren't we missing the entire concept of consent here if we only accept fidelity as possible in only a marriage of one partner to one other partner?

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Just for an example, how is it hypocritical to object to infidelity of a supposedly monogamous marriage partner, and then to be in a polygamous marriage in which it is agreed two of the partners are monogamous and the other is not sexually involved with either of them? Not that we know this is the case, but as an example.

Or how is it hypocritical to have the same objections, but enter into polygamous marriage with the agreement of all parties that sex would be restricted to only those in the marriage? Aren't we missing the entire concept of consent here if we only accept fidelity as possible in only a marriage of one partner to one other partner?

Because we know Lyanna objected to men that didn't keep to one bed, and we do not know her feelings about polygamy. It is a mute point.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

 

In that case, the Church is far more educated than its sacred text. 

An interesting rationalization, if she had sex before marriage. 

Now this I like.  

The imagery is certainly there. Red and blue. Sacred and profane. Pure, yet bloody. 

Or you could say that she was a woman of surpassing lovliness without blame.  I would like to discuss Robert's deathbed scene with you once the new thread is up.  

[Voice]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or you could say that she was a woman of surpassing lovliness without blame.  I would like to discuss Robert's deathbed scene with you once the new thread is up.  

Sounds like a cheerful subject.  

I can already see that it would lend itself quite easily to Christ-imagery. Gored by a bore vs gored by a spear. Cool stuff. I've oft thought of Robert as Dionysus, but I've never considered him as Christ. It actually makes a lot of sense. Both were kind to children, threatened the elites, enjoyed wine, and frequented brothels.  

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Funny, but I am only reminding the thread of Lyanna's convictions regarding vows of betrothal and marriage. We know what they were. We know she did not swoon for men who do not keep to one bed, and take advantage of some girl while siring a bastard. Yet, for RLJ to be true, Rhaegar would have had to have done these things. It is a rather simple paradox. 

And I'm saying you are the one making it a simple paradox, by not seeing the other possibilities. For instance, Lyanna's objections to Robert may seem simple and clear, but there may be more to them. Her objections may well include he did not tell her himself about little Mya Stone. He sends his best friend and Lyanna's brother to ask for the marriage, but starts it out with hiding his child. Lyanna then voices her concerns about his unchanging nature, which we know she is spot on in her judgement. Perhaps what you are reading is first and foremost and objection to Robert's lying ways? It's one thing to go into such a marriage with a husband who is pledged to stop his wandering ways, and hope he can do so. It is altogether another thing for him to try to hide his nature through his friendship with her brother.

We have an example of another such a man being very close to Lyanna in the person of her elder brother, Brandon. Could his lying ways have an effect on Lyanna's concerns? I think they might. 

Now, let's take this further. Let's suppose Rhaegar and Lyanna fall in love. If her concern is about lying men, then we know he isn't lying to her about another wife. The whole of Westeros knows of Elia and Rhaegar. It isn't dishonesty that would stop them from marrying. it would be by mutual consent to enter such an second marriage. No tricks, no lies. And it could even include monogamy. Or to put it another way - no infidelities.

So, what you're reducing to a simple paradox is not so simple. It imposes a cultural concept of what constitutes fidelity to marriages of two people only. The problem for the reader is that Martin introduces the concept of polygamous marriage to his world and to the Targaryens in particular. The reader is forced to then look to this as possible when dealing with Targaryen characters, and we may miss important aspects of the story if we don't. 

But, please, don't mistake me. I do not rule out hypocrisy as a possible part of Lyanna's personality. We all have our hypocritical sides, so why should she be immune? Things like the need for love can bring us to do things we don't normally think we would do.

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Rather than attempt to rationalize her protest to make it fit into a preferred theory, why not begin with that protest as the framework of a theory?

Funny, my friend, I think I did just that.

1 hour ago, Voice said:

People focus far too much on Rhaegar/Arthur/Robert/sperm donor, and use the man's ambitions as the foundation of the theory. Lyanna's voice is either dismissed, rationalized, or treated as anecdotal. That is a fundamental mistake, in my opinion.

Could you show me where I write about Rhaegar's ambitions? So far, I've put this all from Lyanna's perspective.

1 hour ago, Voice said:

The woman matters too (if not more), and it is my belief that any theory which proposes Jon's mother is actually Lyanna Stark, should begin with Lyanna Stark's character and convictions. 

Which is why I start with a discussion of things we know about Lyanna's character.

[SFDanny]

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Because we know Lyanna objected to men that didn't keep to one bed, and we do not know her feelings about polygamy. It is a mute point.

It is only a mute point if one defines a polygamous marriage, of whatever type, as by its nature a type of infidelity. 

[Voice]

1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

And I'm saying you are the one making it a simple paradox, by not seeing the other possibilities. For instance, Lyanna's objections to Robert may seem simple and clear, but there may be more to them. Her objections may well include he did not tell her himself about little Mya Stone. He sends his best friend and Lyanna's brother to ask for the marriage, but starts it out with hiding his child. Lyanna then voices her concerns about his unchanging nature, which we know she is spot on in her judgement. Perhaps what you are reading is first and foremost and objection to Robert's lying ways? It's one thing to go into such a marriage with a husband who is pledged to stop his wandering ways, and hope he can do so. It is altogether another thing for him to try to hide his nature through his friendship with her brother.

We have an example of another such a man being very close to Lyanna in the person of her elder brother, Brandon. Could his lying ways have and effect on Lyanna's concerns? I think they might. 

Now, let's take this further. Let's suppose Rhaegar and Lyanna fall in love. If her concern is about lying men, then we know he isn't lying to her about another wife. The whole of Westeros knows of Elia and Rhaegar. It isn't dishonesty that would stop them from marrying. it would be by mutual consent to enter such an second marriage. No tricks, no lies. And it could even include monogamy. Or to put it another way - no infidelities.

So, what you're reducing to a simple paradox is not so simple. It imposes a cultural concept of what constitutes fidelity to marriages of two people only. The problem for the reader is that Martin introduces the concept of polygamous marriage to his world and to the Targaryens in particular. The reader is forced to then look to this as possible when dealing with Targaryen characters, and we may miss important aspects of the story if we don't. 

But, please, don't mistake me. I do not rule out hypocrisy as a possible part of Lyanna's personality. We all have our hypocritical sides, so why should she be immune? Things like the need for love can bring us to do things we don't normally think we would do.

Funny, my friend, I think I did just that.

Could you show me where I write about Rhaegar's ambitions? So far, I've put this all from Lyanna's perspective.

Which is why I start with a discussion of things we know about Lyanna's character.

 

A Lyanna-centric story to be sure, and entirely plausible within the myriad of possible scenarios.  

But the tale you describe does sound rather odd compared to the wolf-blooded Lyanna we are introduced to in the novels. Do not make Robert's mistake, and see only Lyanna's beauty and not the iron underneath. 

And if Arya, or even Sansa, might serve as she-wolf archetypes, then it seems even less likely the lovestory you've described would unfold. 

You will recall that it took an act of the High Septon to absolve Sansa of her betrothal to Joffrey, and that such marriage pacts are sacred. We are told of no such absolution for Robert+Lyanna. Thus, Rhaegar would have dishonored the north had he bedded Lyanna, regardless of his polygamous solicitations. 

You will also recall what the execution of Eddard did for Sansa's sex drive. If RLJ, then Lyanna would have had to have spread her legs for Rhaegar after Aerys roasted and strangled her father and brother, respectively. It's possible this only strengthened Rhaegar and Lyanna's bonds of love, but given the she-wolf and wolf-blood archetypes, it seems to me we only have credible cause to make the opposite assumption. 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Voice said:

Sounds like a cheerful subject.  

I can already see that it would lend itself quite easily to Christ-imagery. Gored by a bore vs gored by a spear. Cool stuff. I've oft thought of Robert as Dionysus, but I've never considered him as Christ. It actually makes a lot of sense. Both were kind to children, threatened the elites, enjoyed wine, and frequented brothels.  

lolol - that's not where I'm going....

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

It is only a mute point if one defines a polygamous marriage, of whatever type, as by its nature a type of infidelity. 

So you assert they married first, then came the baby? This is not based on the text either.

[SFDanny]

2 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

A Lyanna-centric story to be sure, and entirely plausible within the myriad of possible scenarios.  

But the tale you describe does sound rather odd compared to the wolf-blooded Lyanna we are introduced to in the novels. Do not make Robert's mistake, and see only Lyanna's beauty and not the iron underneath. 

I don't make Robert's mistake and have quoted Ned's comment about the Iron underneath her beauty quite often. My original post speaks to Lyanna's wolf blood in many of the actions and words we see concerning her. I do think it is very important to start with these quotes and build theories upon them. That doesn't mean there aren't quotes that point to love from the she wolf as well. I think of her death holding onto dead roses as vitally important in understanding her character.

8 minutes ago, Voice said:

And if Arya, or even Sansa, might serve as she-wolf archetypes, then it seems even less likely the lovestory you've described would unfold. 

In both of their stories I see aspects of Lyanna. We may only see the lovestruck Sansa and her love of romantic stories to begin with, but any reader who doesn't see the "iron underneath" of Sansa's use of "courtesies" to survive a cabal of villains who beset her misses the real story Martin is telling. Likewise, if one only sees Arya's "iron" and misses her desperate need for love as she lives through torture and cruelty isn't seeing all of her character.

14 minutes ago, Voice said:

 You will recall that it took an act of the High Septon to absolve Sansa of her betrothal to Joffrey, and that such marriage pacts are sacred. We are told of no such absolution for Robert+Lyanna. Thus, Rhaegar would have dishonored the north had he bedded Lyanna, regardless of his polygamous solicitations.

I recall it differently than you. Isn't it Joffrey who asks the High Septon to forgive him his promise to marry Sansa? But I don't disagree that such marriage pacts are sacred. I agree Rhaegar, from the North's perspective, over stepped his royal rights by his actions at Harrenhal, and by his "kidnapping" of Lyanna. This is theme that plays out over and over in the books. Robb does the same with his marriage to Jeyne, and the Frey's are livid. Prince Duncan's refusal to marry the Baratheon daughter plays on the same conflict. I agree it is important. I don't think this means Lyanna is acting out of character to refuse the marriage to Robert and ask for Rhaegar's help in doing so. Far from it. I think this is just the example of "wolf blood" Ned is talking about that brought her to an early grave.

 

22 minutes ago, Voice said:

You will also recall what the execution of Eddard did for Sansa's sex drive. If RLJ, then Lyanna would have had to have spread her legs for Rhaegar after Aerys roasted and strangled her father and brother, respectively. It's possible this only strengthened Rhaegar and Lyanna's bonds of love, but given the she-wolf and wolf-blood archetypes, it seems to me we only have credible cause to make the opposite assumption. 

I don't recall any indication that Rhaegar was remotely involved in Rickard and Brandon's deaths. It seems that Rhaegar and Lyanna are hiding out from Aerys and much as Rickard and Robert when this happens. So, I don't see how it is at all analogous to Ned's execution ordered by Joffrey. I don't pretend to know just when, if at all, Rhaegar and Lyanna started having sex and what effect the news of torture, deaths, and rebellion would have on them doing so. When your world blows up, sometimes we cling to those closest to us to get through the terror. Does that include sex? I don't know.

[SFDanny]

30 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

So you assert they married first, then came the baby? This is not based on the text either.

I speculate that they likely did marry first, and mostly this is because of Lyanna's character as she is given to us. A pregnant Lyanna would, in my estimation want a marriage for her child. It is one thing to reject all gender expectations Westerosi society put upon Lyanna herself. It is altogether different to allow your child to grow up as a "bastard" unworthy of respect if you can do anything thing about it. Is it based on the text? In the sense of what Lyanna's character tells us what she would want in such a case, I'd argue it is. Certainly we don't know for sure that she is ever pregnant. Many things point to that being likely, but, no, we don't know for certain she ever was.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

I speculate that they likely did marry first, and mostly this is because of Lyanna's character as she is given to us. A pregnant Lyanna would, in my estimation want a marriage for her child. It is one thing to reject all gender expectations Westerosi society put upon Lyanna herself. It is altogether different to allow your child to grow up as a "bastard" unworthy of respect if you can do anything thing about it. Is it based on the text? In the sense of what Lyanna's character tells us what she would want in such a case, I'd argue it is. Certainly we don't know for sure that she is ever pregnant. Many things point to that being likely, but, no, we don't know for certain she ever was.

Then we're back to sex and pregnancy before marriage, which doesn't fit with her concerns about a man that doesn't keep to one bed. If her character doesn't approve of a man that doesn't keep to one bed, then sex with a married man would certainly fall under the same concern. If wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'll all have a merry christmas.

[SFDanny]

What does premarital sex and pregnancy have to do with concerns about infidelity?

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

What does premarital sex and pregnancy have to do with concerns about infidelity?

Seriously? So she expects fidelity from someone that's already married? Me thinks you are trying too hard to make this particular detail work.

[SFDanny]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Seriously? So she expects fidelity from someone that's already married? Me thinks you are trying too hard to make this particular detail work.

Very seriously. What do premarital sex and pregnancy have to do with concerns about infidelities? Nothing.

As to the fact Rhaegar is married already, I agree if she is worried about Rhaegar going back to Elia's bed then she has a concern that she should address before getting sexually involved with the man, but we know this is a political marriage, not one based on love. What was the word Ser Barristan used to describe Rhaegar's feelings for Elia - fond, I think. We know Elia's health concerns about further pregnancies. Elia may well not want Rhaegar in her bed anymore, and only want a paper marriage. What she needs from the marriage is certainly security in her position and in her children's positions but that's not the same as wanting Rhaegar in her bed anymore. That means her interest may be limited to not getting divorced and nothing more.

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Very seriously. What do premarital sex and pregnancy have to do with concerns about infidelities? Nothing.

As to the fact Rhaegar is married already, I agree if she is worried about Rhaegar going back to Elia's bed then she has a concern that she should address before getting sexually involved with the man, but we know this is a political marriage, not one based on love. What was the word Ser Barristan used to describe Rhaegar's feelings for Elia - fond, I think. We know Elia's health concerns about further pregnancies. Elia may well not want Rhaegar in her bed anymore, and only want a paper marriage. What she needs from the marriage is certainly security in her position and in her children's positions but that's not the same as wanting Rhaegar in her bed anymore. That means her interest may be limited to not getting divorced and nothing more.

Rhaegar was already married. To contemplate adultry is not keeping to his marriage bed, and Lyanna would be having relations with a married man. Both situations are just as bad if not worse than Robert's infidelities.