Who is your favorite villain and why?

[Ashes Of Westeros]

8 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Huh? Villains, as a general rule, do have their understandable motivations. Lord Vader, Hans Gruber, Lady Macbeth, Terminator. I don't think "evil for the sake of being evil", the Joker-style, is any more "classical" than "evil reasonable".

I agree that many villains have their reasons. The thing is that most villains act evil because they've been put on the opposite side of "goodness", because they're designed to be in contrast to a good character. They can have plausible reasons, but the narrative usually doesn't let sympasize them.

I personally have more understanding and empathy to Cersei or tawyin or Bowen, than to Hans Gruber or Lady Macbeth. Just iMHO

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I agree that many villains have their reasons. The thing is that most villains act evil because they've been put on the opposite side of "goodness", because they're designed to be in contrast to a good character. They can have plausible reasons, but the narrative usually doesn't let sympasize them.

I personally have more understanding and empathy to Cersei or tawyin or Bowen, than to Hans Gruber or Lady Macbeth. Just iMHO

You're describing an antagonist, rather than someone who is necessarily a villain.  Bowen is actually a good example of someone who is an antagonist to a good character, but without necessarily being a villain.

A villain needs to be pretty bad, albeit, he or she may still have understandable motives, some good qualities, or other sympathetic traits.

[Davjos]

On 30 oktober 2016 at 5:45 PM, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Great points! While we IMO don't really know enough about Bowen to make him my favourite villain, he is definitely an interesting character (and Alliser Thorne might be my favourite villain on the show; they really did a great job adding depth to his character and Owen Teale is a perfect casting choice!).

My favourite villain is quite the opposite though... it's Roose Bolton. He acts purely out of self interest, and while the goals he's aiming for (as many here have stated) are not so different from your average lord, the way he tries to accomplish them are so downright evil he fits the villain category from my perspective. He sent thousands of men into battles they can't win, he helped orchestrate the Red Wedding, he arranged the marriage of some poor girl to his sadistic son and afterwards apparently didn't care what happened to her, he raped Ramsay's mother and would have killled Ramsay if not for his eyes and he bankrupted Walder Frey by marrying Fat Walda! If that doesn't make you a villain, I don't know what does. Plus, he has the darkest sense of humour I've ever seen.

I agree with all your points. Roose is a great villain. He has the aura of a cunning back stabbing street smart Son of a bitch. 

I do have Some small issues with the character. I find the backstory of the Boltons and their history too 'tropey', they're too typically evil with their Red Kings and torturing and flaying. They're just evil, and pure evil is boring. Both Ramsey and Roose have ambition as their only motivator. These ambitions are completely irrealistic and they don't justify their means to me. They don't have a reason to be evil, they just are. 

[urielisko]

On 10/28/2016 at 8:43 AM, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Bran. His descent into cannibalism

 

On 10/28/2016 at 8:43 AM, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

cannibalism

Care to present some actual, textual evidence from materials sufficiently confirmed to have been written by George R.R. Martin, about Bran consciously choosing to eat another human?

Arguably, some disturbing hints can be found in the weirwood seed paste dish which Bran himself considers to taste like blood. If this is after his vision of human sacrifice where he gets to taste human blood, rational people can reliably conclude that weirwood seeds taste like blood. Overexcited disturbed minds might insist that it was not seeds, it was blood! or even that Bran ate Jojen mwaHAHAhahaha!, but there is no textual support for any such claim in actual ASOIAF so far.

[kimim]

Littlefinger. He's a chaotic yet orderly trickster, and a mystery. He's without a family, which makes him an outsider and gives him flexibility, as he can work through whichever family he can trick.

Since he doesn't have a family to back him, LF bases his power on his knowledge of gold. He's the only main character who represents the power of coin on Westeros; everyone else, even the Lannisters, are politics and military might. 

He's given a background that explains his present situation: He was treated like shit by a noble family. Lysa tricked him into believing that she was Cat, and used him sexually while he was drunk and vulnerable. He wants revenge. He wants to show the great families that they can be defeated by a guy who has no family, whose only power is his intellect and the gold he knows how to manipulate.

I'm a bit annoyed that GRRM set up LF as a financial genius yet limited his overt involvement to political trickery. LF has people everywhere. He's the only one who gets how gold works; even Tyrion doesn't know what to make of his records. Westeros is on the verge of bankruptcy. Gold is powerful; Jon manages to avoid famine at CB through a loan from the IB. Yet LF's at the Vale, playing political games like everyone else. It almost feels like the waste of a character.

[khal drogon]

I like Roose a lot. I don't consider him a villain because I am not much sympathetic to the Stark side and I see him as a more human villain. Same with Walder Frey. They are villains for the sake of story but I don't find them as complete monsters. 

I also like Cersei. She is the evil queen but not the stereotypical one. I could root against her at the same time feel pity for her and I find it fascinating.  

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

In a realm of greys and surely some beasts of violence and evil, Euron is a villain in every sense, even by ironborn levels he's over the top, there's no grey there as of now so, yeah... Euron the Maddest

[The Wolves]

On 10/31/2016 at 6:35 PM, Ethelarion said:

I agree with all your points. Roose is a great villain. He has the aura of a cunning back stabbing street smart Son of a bitch. 

I do have Some small issues with the character. I find the backstory of the Boltons and their history too 'tropey', they're too typically evil with their Red Kings and torturing and flaying. They're just evil, and pure evil is boring. Both Ramsey and Roose have ambition as their only motivator. These ambitions are completely irrealistic and they don't justify their means to me. They don't have a reason to be evil, they just are.

I'm glad I'm not alone in my opinions on the Boltons, they are the most boring characters in the books. 

And to the bolded I find most of the villains in the story evil just to be evil and no justification in their backstories to why they are the way that they are. They seem so petty, childish, and selfish that it's hard IMO to sympathize with the most privileged people in this world and others have had a much much much worse life example: smallfolk. 

 

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

22 hours ago, urielisko said:

 

Care to present some actual, textual evidence from materials sufficiently confirmed to have been written by George R.R. Martin, about Bran consciously choosing to eat another human?

Arguably, some disturbing hints can be found in the weirwood seed paste dish which Bran himself considers to taste like blood. If this is after his vision of human sacrifice where he gets to taste human blood, rational people can reliably conclude that weirwood seeds taste like blood. Overexcited disturbed minds might insist that it was not seeds, it was blood! or even that Bran ate Jojen mwaHAHAhahaha!, but there is no textual support for any such claim in actual ASOIAF so far.

I thought Bran also ate human wights while warging Summer, which I think Varamyr mentioned as one of the abominations in the prologue. Don't hold me to it though: I don't have my books with me, so I can't check it and I can't provide a quote right now.

[urielisko]

Just now, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

I thought Bran also ate human wights while warging Summer, which I think Varamyr mentioned as one of the abominations in the prologue. Don't hold me to it though: I don't have my books with me, so I can't check it and I can't provide a quote right now.

I think this is a slightly tricky one, due to warging. It's Summer eating wights, not Bran eating fellow humans. so 'canibalism" doesn't seem to apply. As I understand, at least in the beginning, Bran has pretty much no control over Summer, so even if he shares Summer's experience, I don't think I'd call him a canibal... just yet.

I forgot that thing. Interestingly, same can be said for Arya when warging Nymeria across the Narrow Sea.

Thank you for refreshing my overly sceptical mind.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

4 minutes ago, urielisko said:

I think this is a slightly tricky one, due to warging. It's Summer eating wights, not Bran eating fellow humans. so 'canibalism" doesn't seem to apply. As I understand, at least in the beginning, Bran has pretty much no control over Summer, so even if he shares Summer's experience, I don't think I'd call him a canibal... just yet.

I forgot that thing. Interestingly, same can be said for Arya when warging Nymeria across the Narrow Sea.

Thank you for refreshing my overly sceptical mind.

Indeed, it is not outright cannibalism. However, it happens during aDwD (if I remember correctly), where Bran can control Summer. That doesn't mean he was doing it in this instance, though. And in the prologue of that book it is mentioned that eating human flesh while warging is an abomination.

From the wiki:

Quote

An unwritten code of ethics for wildling skinchangers, as told by Haggon, forbids them:

• To eat of human meat.
• To mate as wolf with wolf.
• To seize the body of another man (this is the worst abomination).

Interesting point that Arya did this too. Maybe she'll turn out to be a villain as well 

[urielisko]

40 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Interesting point that Arya did this too. Maybe she'll turn out to be a villain as well 

She is going down a very dark path. "Mercy" chapter made my skin crawl and Ghost of the High Heart was terrified of her a lot earlier already.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

On 11/3/2016 at 11:35 PM, urielisko said:

 

Care to present some actual, textual evidence from materials sufficiently confirmed to have been written by George R.R. Martin, about Bran consciously choosing to eat another human?

Arguably, some disturbing hints can be found in the weirwood seed paste dish which Bran himself considers to taste like blood. If this is after his vision of human sacrifice where he gets to taste human blood, rational people can reliably conclude that weirwood seeds taste like blood. Overexcited disturbed minds might insist that it was not seeds, it was blood! or even that Bran ate Jojen mwaHAHAhahaha!, but there is no textual support for any such claim in actual ASOIAF so far.

Cannibalism is people eating people, your arbitrary requirement that it must be consciously chosen is irrelevant.

It wasn't just Jojen, he also ate a ranger. Maybe a naive and gullible 8-year-old would believe it was a sow, but astute readers realize the truth.

Good luck with the whole refusing-to-read-between-the-lines thing. Lemme know how that works out for you.

[House Beaudreau]

On 10/26/2016 at 11:29 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Shakaz mo Kandaq. Now, right now he is not a villain, but I think he might be in the next book. If he does what I think he will do, it will complicate things in Meereen. And even though Shakaz might be ruthless, I sometimes find myself slightly understanding his reasons.

like your thinking here. I have always been suspicious about Shakaz. I feel like he might actually be working with the Green Grace to take Meereen. He has been playing Barristan in Meereen. I pray that Tyrion gets into Meereen and cleans house.   

[House Beaudreau]

Gregor Cleganne. Not one person has torn more shit to pieces in the realm than him. ever. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Petyr Baelish he has manage to amass much power , while keeping his hands clean .

[Lointain]

One man's hero is the other man's villain.

Villain: Rob Stark - his decision to go to war against the Iron Throne started an horrible conflict.

Hero: Tywin Lannister - no one likes him, but he knows what should be do for the greater good of the Seven Kingdoms.

[urielisko]

7 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Cannibalism is people eating people, your arbitrary requirement that it must be consciously chosen is irrelevant.

It wasn't just Jojen, he also ate a ranger. Maybe a naive and gullible 8-year-old would believe it was a sow, but astute readers realize the truth.

Good luck with the whole refusing-to-read-between-the-lines thing. Lemme know how that works out for you.

Wonderfully. Considerably less Sweetrobin-type excitement, a lot more sanity.

[Wolf's Bane]

I don't think this story has a traditional villain.  The "villain" here has completely understandable motives and in many ways you can even sympathize why they did it.  My favorite "villain" is Walder Frey because he's not really a villain to me.  He committed a violation guest rights for many good reasons.  (1)  To get back on good terms with the Lannisters and Joffrey, (2)  To take revenge on Robb for disrespecting him, and (3) To avoid the consequences of siding with the losing side, and (4) To gain more wealth.

Walder's family fought loyally for Robb Stark.  Robb betrayed them and only offered to make amends when he realized he needed Walder again.  I can't blame the old guy for not wanting to stay on board Robb's sinking ship.

I also like Bowen Marsh but he's not really considered a villain by most fans.  He was just a loyal man of the watch who did what he had to to stop his crazy lord commander.

[Wrl6199]

Just now, Steelshanks Walton said:

I don't think this story has a traditional villain.  The "villain" here has completely understandable motives and in many ways you can even sympathize why they did it.  My favorite "villain" is Walder Frey because he's not really a villain.  He committed a violation guest rights for many good reasons. 

Wow its rare to here someone defend wader Frey. I mean i have heard people defend other so called villains but i wouldn't really say hes as dependable as some of the others. I mean he did still kill them all for something pretty minor and he still got to marry off one of his daughters to them.