Speculation about the Targaryens on Dragonstone

[Paxter Redwyne]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Fucking the Crown Princess of the Realm was treason. Daemon was lucky that his brother did not execute him.

Viserys I decreed that everybody - the royal family included - would lose his tongue if he or she repeated Aemond's lies. The idea that some Velaryon children actually did that isn't very likely. Not to mention that all our sources tell us that Viserys I was a very lenient king.

Well, you are probably right. Viserys had many flaws, but he wasn't cruel.

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They still could have been already. Nothing would have prevented them from settling on Dragonstone if some Targaryen lord allowed it.

They could of course be settlers from westeros, but if Sunglasses were always so pious as Lord Guncer Sunglass, i don't think they would get along with overlords who practice incest and polygamy.

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is also a possibility. I go with the idea that Aerion had a much younger sister who married Aethon Velaryon but it is also possible that Aerion had a younger brother who was the father of Alyssa's mother.

If Daemon Velaryon was closer to age to Aegon's father Aerion and he was brother of Valaena, it is possible that their mother was sister of Aelyx, Baelon and Daemion.

And if Aethon's wife was Aegon's aunt there would be quite big age gap between her and Aerion. As Aegon's polygamy marriage was seen as unusual at the time, i think that there were no polygamy (probably for many generations) for long time and unless Daemion had remarried or had second child with his wife unexpectedly in her forties or something, Aethons wife could not be Aerion's sister.

[Jaak]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, not according to Downton Abbey. There the third cousin of the Earl of Grantham is about as noble as I am. Yes, you retain some sort special rank for some time but eventually your status is gone. Even if you are descended from some king. 

And that´s England - a country that unlike most of the rest of Europe does not have nobility, precisely because in England the cadet branches do not have the eternal entitlement of noble status, like most of European countries have.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That might be the case. But the idea that such Dragonstonian 'middle class' would be landed knights makes no sense at all. Dragonstone and the adjacent islands are volcanic islands. There wouldn't be much land to grant to some landed knights, just as those places don't feed a lot of people in the first place.

Yet those places did feed the 1600 men who sailed with Aegon.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stewards occasionally do have surname (e.g. Vayon Poole) but this doesn't mean those are nobles. There could have been some noble Coles considering that Criston never had any trueborn children and there are some Coles (or men calling themselves Cole) with the Golden Company.

We only know that Tyrells were hereditary "stewards". No such information about Vayon Poole, or Cole, or Wayn.

And Lothar Frey is a steward, but not a hereditary steward.

For example, we hear of House Cassel - late Martyn, Rodrik and Jory. They have no visible means of support other than the household of Winterfell. Then again, Lord Petyr Frey rarely needs to discuss Drearfort while at court. He does have Umfred, Bryen etc. at Drearfort, and possibly they remit a small profit to court - a profit completely insignificant compared to his salary, let alone his profits from trade.

Vayon Poole or Cassels may or may not be affiliated with some small tower or unfortified hall in Winterfell countryside, whether it´s occupied by servants like Drearfort, or by a brother or cousin who only shows up at court when banners are called.

Vayon Poole is unarmed, but so is Petyr. Again - are "Pooles" hereditarily stewards, or is the job one which a Cassel who happens to be lame like Lothar could take equally well?

 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Great thread & speculation, all!

Very true, though there arguably were variations: Daemon (indeed, there were at least two Lord Velaryons with this name) from Daemion, Daena/Daenerys from Daenys, Laena from Valaena ... On Valaena herself, given Vhagar hatched on Dragonstone in 51BC, if wonder if such was in conjunction with her own birth (being half-Targ) or Aerion's. What if she was a dragonrider, particularly if the same one Laena herself rode more than a century later!

The question under what circumstances Vhagar hatched is pretty interesting. But I doubt we'll ever get an answer to that. However, I think we have to go with the assumption that Meraxes hatched pretty much immediately after the Targaryens settled on Dragonstone to make it believable that she was larger at her death in 10 AC then Vhagar was in 130 AC.

By the way, Maegor is another version of the name Maegon, just as Baelor is a variation of Baelon. The only Targaryen names that weren't recycled again seem to be Aelyx and Aenar (and I tried account for that with the idea above that Aenar might have had degraded son with one of his many wives who tried to usurp the place of his elder siblings and failed spectacularly when trying to mount a dragon).

I imagine Aelyx could turn out to be either a lackwit/madman in the sense of Rhaegel or even a cruel sadist like Maegor or Aerion. This could explain as to why his never fell out of use thereafter, especially if he turned against the surviving branch of House Targaryen (like Maegor later did). 

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Good point. And also Good Queen Alysanne (though generally through more traditional womanly roles/aspects) besides Visenya & Rhaenys. I think it's fair to say that Mariah had more (ruling) influence on Daeron II than what Rhaella had on Aerys II though tbh, especially as TWoIaF says as much.

It is difficult to say whether Maegon/Aerys or Aelyx, Baelon, and Daemion had any sister-wives but we can be reasonably sure that their wives were not co-rulers. But then, we don't even know if those Targaryens ruled after each other or whether there was some sort of duumvirate or triumvirate. What if Maegon and Aerys were twins? Just because the women there weren't mentioned doesn't mean they do not play an important role.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Princess/Queen Rhaena, widow of Aegon 1.5 & Maegor I, as the mother of Corlys = headcanon:

• Corlys was named for the 1st LC of the KG. Two of the first seven members died defending Aegon I (Rhaena's grandfather) & as Ser Corlys was succeeded as LC by his fellow initiate, Ser Addison Hill, it's likely imo that he was one of these two. Plus that original seven is especially high-praised, something that would be part due to Ser Corlys - The Old, the True, the Brave.
• Lord Daemon Velaryon, though Maegor's "Admiral of the King's Fleet" (Cersei-esque paranoia at not having at least that Master on the Small Council?) initially (come on, Balerion - most were behind him to some degree before Jaehaerys put his claim forward when basically everyone hated him anyway), he was one of the first to defect to Prince Jaehaerys. "Great lords" followed him - I'm guessing the Lannisters & Tullys (the only two besides the Baratheons & Velaryons themselves we know who turned against Maegor before his death).

I think the man was Alyssa's brother. Considering that Maegor had Alyssa and her children (aside from Aegon and Rhaena) in his custody from the start it is quite unlikely that Driftmark would have openly turned against the king in the early years. And later on - well, as long as Alyssa and Jaehaerys made no move there was no need to. It is likely the man bided his time as a lot of people did.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

 

• The Sea Snake succeeded his grandsire & considering the timings, I'm guessing that was Lord Daemon. I'm assuming that Daemon was kept by Jaehaerys (Alyssa, especially if Daemon was a close relative like say a brother as has been posited by someone else earlier in the thread, & Robar too) as his own Master of Ships given his support of his claim (plus obvious practicality) & a consolidation of Targ-Velaryon relations (& blood) would be apt with a marriage.

If Daemon wasn't all that much older than Alyssa it is easily imaginable that he lived to a rather old age, dying, say, in the late 70s or even 80s. 

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

 

• Rhaena was only 25 when Maegor died & 30 when Corlys was born. Jaehaerys chose Alysanne as his wife instead of his older sister & Robar (eventually, I'd love to know the dynamic & history between those two especially given the age gap - what if Argella was still alive - how would she feel about the match?) married Alyssa. An unnamed son of Lord Daemon would be a natural choice for as (another) husband for Rhaena given all the circumstances.

Yeah, especially considering that his children would inherit Driftmark and would remain the prime candidates to remarry into the royal family should Jaehaerys I and Alysanne produce not enough sons and daughters. Alyssa married own daughter Jocelyn to her eldest grandson, Prince Aemon, and might have intended to pick a Velaryon daughter (from Rhaena and her hypothetical Velaryon husband) as bride for Prince Baelon, or another of Jaehaerys' sons. That nothing came of that might have been due to the fact that Corlys never had any sisters.

And we see the Targaryen-Velaryon axis again with Rhaenys and Corlys - when that match was made Prince Aemon most certainly believed that his only child would one day succeed him as the first Queen Regnant of Westeros, and he chose the most prestigious husband she could possibly have for her. Corlys Velaryon was much more impressive than Prince Viserys or Prince Daemon - and he might have had as much Targaryen blood as the sons of Baelon and Alyssa, possibly through the elder line.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

 

• As Addam & Alyn are all but confirmed Corlys' sons instead of Laenor's, Addam being able to claim Seasmoke is further bolstered if he had a dragonriding grandmother.

 

That is not definitive proof but a strong hint. In addition, we have to keep in mind that Laena claiming Vhagar is a very odd thing in any scenario. Her riding the largest dragon alive shifted a lot of power to the Targaryen-Velaryon branch of the family, and she must have mounted her after Jaehaerys I decided to name Baelon his heir.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Well with the (effective) extinction of the dragons with the Dance & the Targs increasingly having to look to Westerosi brides & grooms for political matches, the Velaryons fell to the wayside. Additionally, most of their wealth & some of their naval power was lost in the Dance & not even Oakenfist (particularly with the amount of fighting he had to do for the Crown - defeating Racallio Ryndoon's pirate fleet (effectively much of Tyrosh's navy imo given the breaking of the Triarchy & Pentos & Braavos bearing down on the Three Daughters to end it for good) in the Stepstones & defeating much of Dalton's Ironborn just within the Regency - not to mention also ransoming Prince Viserys from Lys & perhaps also acting as the ferry service for say the Vale forces during this time) could reverse that. Particularly as Alyn disappeared at sea between 171-176AC, Aegon IV had his retarded attempt to retake Dorne in 174AC where the royal fleet was scattered & destroyed in a storm, & the Unworthy likely betrothed Daemon Blackfyre to Rohanne (daughter of a Tyroshi archon) as an attempt to gain more ships ... Coincidence? Yeah, nah.

 

Well, it is also imaginable that Alyn and Baela simply had no daughters or granddaughters a Targaryen prince could marry. At least not in the right age. There was no need for brides outside the family until Daeron II looked for brides for his sons - and he might actually have chosen non-Velaryon Targaryen cousins (descendants of the five daughter of Rhaena Targaryen by Garmund Hightower).

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

We also don't know who Daella or Rhae married (though it/they likely involved House Tarth &/or Dunk), & there's also the possibility that House Velaryon had a Targ bride in Daena (though I think she was the mother of Jena Dondarrion), a daughter of Elaena (whether Jeyne Waters or a Penrose), Daenora (if she survived Aerion), &/or Vaella (not likely to have married & had children, but can't be ruled out).

It doesn't seem likely that Daena the Defiant remarried after her annulment. We know she died young. Jena Dondarrion is likely to have had Targaryen blood (through one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls). Aelinor Penrose is confirmed as a Targaryen cousin, and this also explains why the hell Princess Elaena was married to this Ronnel Penrose guy - they were both Targaryen cousins through the female line, with Aelinor possibly being Ronnel's daughter from a first wife. It is quite clear that Elaena-Ronnel was a political match.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Possibly, but even with Quenton having been the master-at-arms who already had a grandson who could succeed him in 9AC (as per Sons of the Dragon) meaning that he would've trained Aegon, Visenya & Orys (who could all praise him for such); raising him to Lord of Harrenhal & marrying to a daughter of one of the new Lord Paramounts (even the "low" Tullys) is a pretty big step for Aegon if Quenton wasn't some sort of Valyrian nobility. Mayhaps House Qoherys was a vassal on Dragonstone or Driftmark or held the small island between Duskendale & Driftmark or the one in the "cradle" of Massey's Hook ...

 

That is certainly possible, too. I only wanted to point out that the Qoherys family should not be imagined as an important Valyrian family.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

That makes sense. Obviously the Battle of the Gullet is something of a plot contrivance to have "allowed" for the Sack of Driftmark (& so the loss of so much Velaryon wealth - i.e. such & the Velaryon strength not even recovered under Oakenfist), but I wonder if Daeron was Corlys' admiral (Rhaenyra's Master of Ships?) during the Dance & stuffed up big time there (at the very least not keeping some amount of strength on Driftmark itself). Hence, ~16yo Alyn not only succeeds Corlys but is the one leading the royal/Velaryon navy from 133AC (instead of the older Daeron - hell, though he may have even fought for Corlys during the War for the Stepstones two decades earlier), & likely knighted when he was "dubbed" Oakenfist by the Regents later that year.

Thinking about that - those tongueless Velaryons could very easily have died during the Sack of Driftmark. A lot of people died during this entire episode - it would be easily imaginable that the Velaryon family tree was cut down in size to just Corlys and Daeron's branches.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I think the Stepstones voyage (& so Daeron's death) was in 133AC soon after Peake consolidated his power as Hand with Tyland's death (& perhaps also as Protector of the Realm with Leowyn's) & he was the one who most specifically sent Alyn against Ryndoon (I interpreted the quote that Peake actually wanted the Iron Throne to claim the Stepstones on top of ending the pirates, but Alyn was like "yeah nah, fuck ya, stupid idea straight after the Dance & in winter & risk the Triarchy reforming" & was victorious before say Leo Costayne could even land Reach/royal forces there - who Alyn then ordered to head home). Alyn returned to KL, becoming Oakenfist, but was soon sent against Dalton & his Ironborn who he defeated some & then retired to Casterly Rock waiting for Johanna to marshal more of the Westerlands for the invasion of the Iron Islands. In the meantime with his main rival away from court, Peake has Jaehaera killed, holds the great ball when denied having his own daughter betrothed to Aegon III, & Baela & Rhaena prearrange with their younger half-brother to choose Daenaera to thwart Peake, consolidate Targ-Velaryon relations, & as a boon to the 6yo girl who had just lost her father. Whilst Alyn is at Casterly Rock waiting, news comes from Lys that Viserys is alive & the Regents immediately divert Velaryon to ransom him instead (gold lent by Johanna to him representing the Crown?

It is difficult to speculate about any of that because Ran has told us that they had to cut so much material there. We don't really have a good sketch of the Regency aside from a few key characters and their actions. But my gut feeling there is that Alyn Velaryon acted on his own when he brought Prince Viserys back. I don't think the regents sanctioned any of that. He would have done it for his wife, and his brother-in-law, Aegon III.

Considering that Alyn and Baela most likely were second in line to the Iron Throne while Viserys was still believed to be dead this would be a a really noble act.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I LOVE THIS! Make it so GRRM, make it so.

We can hope. If she had a dragon it is difficult to say how long she kept it. I assume Maegor would have killed it after he took over. But then, she could always have picked another hatchling later on.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

He certainly was, but I'm guessing the taint of Rhaenyra's elder "Velaryons" betrothed to Baela & Rhaena (obviously Corlys, Rhaenys, Daemon & Rhaenyra were all in this to some degree all for the benefit of themselves & each other), along with "classic" male-preference.

It is still a rather presumptuous power-grabbing move. To be sure, Driftmark was the richest lordship of Westeros at that time. There was a lot of wealth involved so that people most likely easily forgot the bonds of kinship (and one should keep that in mind for the Lannister succession should something happen to Cersei and her children - Casterly Rock is the richest lordship in Westeros and there are a lot of Lannisters around who might secretly dream to be Lord of Casterly Rock).

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Any chance that Orys was by Aerion & a second wife, but he was denounced as a bastard by Westerosi because of their (particular those who follow the Seven) anti-polygamy stance?

There is certainly a chance for that but the fact that the historians only talk about this as a rumor make me believe that the truth is simply more obscure than that - meaning either the whole thing is just a rumor caused by Aegon and Orys being so close or Aerion was pretty close to Orys' mother. The fact that we are talking rumors means that the truth was never publicly proclaimed. Which means Aerion did never acknowledge the boy publicly as his son nor did he or Aegon later on legitimize Orys as a Targaryen.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I get the impression that (some) hereditary stewards, especially for really notable families & castles, are minor nobility: Pooles (Winterfell), Tyrells (Highgarden), Coles (Blackhaven), Wayns (Riverrun), (possibly) Ladybrights (Sunspear), (arguably) junior-branch Royces (Gates of the Moon pre-AFfC), etc.

There is something to that idea, although I think that many of the stewards with names are actually either disgraced nobility (you only lose your titles not your name) or from cadet branches of lower nobility. The Pooles might have some petty lord cousins, for instance.

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, Jaak said:

And that´s England - a country that unlike most of the rest of Europe does not have nobility, precisely because in England the cadet branches do not have the eternal entitlement of noble status, like most of European countries have.

Well, Westeros is modeled mostly after medieval England. How things are in other European countries I don't really know (especially considering most European no abolished the whole nobility thing).

34 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Yet those places did feed the 1600 men who sailed with Aegon.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that many landed knights lived in those lands nor that many knights were among Aegon's army.

34 minutes ago, Jaak said:

We only know that Tyrells were hereditary "stewards". No such information about Vayon Poole, or Cole, or Wayn.

And Lothar Frey is a steward, but not a hereditary steward.

For example, we hear of House Cassel - late Martyn, Rodrik and Jory. They have no visible means of support other than the household of Winterfell. Then again, Lord Petyr Frey rarely needs to discuss Drearfort while at court. He does have Umfred, Bryen etc. at Drearfort, and possibly they remit a small profit to court - a profit completely insignificant compared to his salary, let alone his profits from trade.

Vayon Poole or Cassels may or may not be affiliated with some small tower or unfortified hall in Winterfell countryside, whether it´s occupied by servants like Drearfort, or by a brother or cousin who only shows up at court when banners are called.

Vayon Poole is unarmed, but so is Petyr. Again - are "Pooles" hereditarily stewards, or is the job one which a Cassel who happens to be lame like Lothar could take equally well?

There is no reason to believe that the position of steward is hereditary in any lordship. The Tyrells were the Stewards of the Reach, an independent kingdom at that point, when the office became hereditary. That is another matter entirely.

[Jaak]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but that doesn't mean that many landed knights lived in those lands nor that many knights were among Aegon's army.

I did not imply there were that many.

Another example from Reach: Ser Eustace Osgrey mobilized a force of 11 men against Rohanne - namely 8 smallfolk and 3 knights, 1 of whom (himself) was surnamed and landed. Lady Rohanne had 20 times as many smallfolk, so could have mobilized 160 men, if banners were called. She showed up at Chequy Water with 13 knights and 20 archers, leaving her smallfolk unmobilized.

Ser Lucas Inchfield certainly had a surname. Did he have lands of his own? And did the other 12 knights of lady Rohanne have surnames, or were they surnameless like ser Eustace´s two?

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Jaak said:

I did not imply there were that many.

Another example from Reach: Ser Eustace Osgrey mobilized a force of 11 men against Rohanne - namely 8 smallfolk and 3 knights, 1 of whom (himself) was surnamed and landed. Lady Rohanne had 20 times as many smallfolk, so could have mobilized 160 men, if banners were called. She showed up at Chequy Water with 13 knights and 20 archers, leaving her smallfolk unmobilized.

I don't know why you are listing that here. What's the point? 

9 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Ser Lucas Inchfield certainly had a surname. Did he have lands of his own? And did the other 12 knights of lady Rohanne have surnames, or were they surnameless like ser Eustace´s two?

Names are irrelevant. Rolly Duckfield has a name, too, yet he is no nobleman. In fact, only landed knights can claim to be noble in a sense considering they own land and have land that their children can inherit. A landless knight can do nothing of that sort. He can leave his money, weapons, horses, etc. to his heirs but neither titles nor lands.

And considering the fact that any knight in Westeros can make a knight we can reasonably say that being a knight isn't worth anything insofar as the nobility of blood is concerned. After all, every commoner can technically become a knight.

[Jaak]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, only landed knights can claim to be noble in a sense considering they own land and have land that their children can inherit. A landless knight can do nothing of that sort. He can leave his money, weapons, horses, etc. to his heirs but neither titles nor lands.

Anguy was advised to buy land with his winnings from tourney. Jaime offered land to Clegane´s men - an offer that Rafford disliked. Yet no mention of knighthood. For his comrades who did take Jaime´s offer - were they noble? Having an ownership right to land, placing them above smallfolk they had previously been...

[Paxter Redwyne]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't seem likely that Daena the Defiant remarried after her annulment. We know she died young.

Where was it even statedd that she died young? I don't remember anything about her death in world of ice and fire or any other source.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aelinor Penrose is confirmed as a Targaryen cousin, and this also explains why the hell Princess Elaena was married to this Ronnel Penrose guy - they were both Targaryen cousins through the female line, with Aelinor possibly being Ronnel's daughter from a first wife. It is quite clear that Elaena-Ronnel was a political match.

Still House Penrose is rather minor house. Swanns, Tarths, Estermonts and Carons all seem more powerful. He may had some targaryen blood, but i still don't understand why daeron ii married his cousin to some guy from lesser house(it wasn't even confirmed that he was lord of Parchments).

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Anguy was advised to buy land with his winnings from tourney. Jaime offered land to Clegane´s men - an offer that Rafford disliked. Yet no mention of knighthood. For his comrades who did take Jaime´s offer - were they noble? Having an ownership right to land, placing them above smallfolk they had previously been...

No, smallfolk certainly can also own land. We know there are yeomen in the Riverlands, from the sermon of the treasonous septon in TMK. There are peasants who sit on land that's owned by their lord, and there are peasants who own their lands themselves. But they still remain commoners. After all, there can also be rather rich commoners - armorers like Tobho Mott most likely are among the richest men in KL - just as there can be very poor commoners.

How often (vast tracts of) land are actually sold is an interesting matter, though. Considering the feudal nature of the Seven Kingdoms that's not going to happen all that often.

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Where was it even statedd that she died young? I don't remember anything about her death in world of ice and fire or any other source.

It is from George's original descriptions of the Princesses in the Maidenvault he gave Amok for the first portraits of the girls. From that we also know that Princess Elaena lived at least to the age of seventy, meaning that she is going to live through the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, making it very likely that we are going to meet her in a future Dunk & Egg story.

Considering that Daena played no role whatsoever during the Blackfyre Rebellion and did apparently nothing to preserve peace between Daemon and Daeron II we can be reasonably certain that she might not even have lived into the reign of Daeron II. In fact, I assume that Daena died before Aegon IV actually acknowledged Daemon as his son, making it possible that the man was lying there and Daemon Blackfyre never was his son. If Daena never confirmed that - which she apparently never did - then the Unworthy might have just jumped on the chance to add another bastard to his own to get himself a tool to make things more difficult to Daeron. But that's just a funny idea of mine.

The fact that Barbra Bracken was a lady-in-waiting of the Princesses in the Tower makes it very likely that she, perhaps already having an affair with Aegon, set Daena up to end up in her cousin's arms - the whole thing being a ploy to ruin her reputation to ensure the eventual rise of Viserys II and then Aegon IV to the Iron Throne. After all, Baelor's immediate heirs were his sisters, not his uncle and cousin.

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Still House Penrose is rather minor house. Swanns, Tarths, Estermonts and Carons all seem more powerful. He may had some targaryen blood, but i still don't understand why daeron ii married his cousin to some guy from lesser house(it wasn't even confirmed that he was lord of Parchments).

Ronnel Penrose is called 'lord' in TWoIaF. Whether that's just a honorific or a title isn't clear. But it would be very odd if Prince Aerys was married to a Penrose girl who isn't the daughter of a lord. The same would go for Elaena herself.

There are hints in TWoIaF that Daeron II actually had friends in the Stormlands and the Marches in his youth because it is stated that Aegon IV tried to drive a wedge between Dorne and Daeron's friends in the Reach and the Stormlands with his Dornish War early on in his reign.

The idea is that some Targaryen cousins born from the marriages of the five Targaryen-Hightower girls would have been raised at court alongside the royal children just as the Targaryen cousin Steffon Baratheon later was. The time line allows for such cousins to be around the same time as Elaena (150 AC) and Daeron II (153 AC) were born. I imagine that Jena Dondarrion's father was one such cousin (with Ser Manfred Dondarrion from THK being Jena's brother) and Ronnel Penrose was another. I think those men grew really close to young Daeron, becoming his best friends and companions in his youth and early adulthood. Once Daeron II took the throne and prepared the pact with Prince Maron he decided to marry his two elder sons to the daughters of those cousins to strengthen the bonds between the families as well as ensuring that those men would stand with him rather than against him in the entire Dornish enterprise. And it seems that this worked out pretty well.

And we should also keep in mind that even people like Lord Dondarrion and Lord Penrose would have quite a different standing than they have now if they were the grandnephews of Targaryen kings Aegon III and Viserys II.

The fact that a Penrose girl did not only marry Prince Aerys but Ronnel also was married to another Targaryen princess strongly suggests that Ronnel Penrose was, for some reason, a rather important person. Daeron II also made him his his Master of Coin despite the fact that the man sucked at this job - which is why Elaena had to step in for him. A man like Daeron II would have named a competent man for this job unless he needed the man for a different reason in an important position at court. 

The idea that either the Penroses or the Dondarrions would have been important enough on their own merit to justify that the king married the Prince of Dragonstone and his second son to daughters from those houses makes no sense at all. They are both minor houses one would even consider to be beneath the Blackwoods (who were a former royal house) yet we do know that Egg's later marriage to Betha Blackwood would have been a scandal, according to Yandel, if he hadn't been at the very end of the line of succession. But Baelor Breakspear and Aerys were at the top of the line of succession when their matches were made - Baelor was the Prince of Dragonstone, and Aerys second in line.

Only the Targaryen custom of marrying close kin can explain how this matches were made without meeting major resistance from the lords of the Realm. Targaryens usually marry sisters, but Daeron II had no daughters, and his sister Daenerys was reserved for the Prince of Dorne. Daeron II also had no first cousins. Elaena only had a son, Viserys Plumm, from her first marriage, and Daena and Rhaena had no daughters, either.

Thus the closest Targaryen relations would be descendants of Viserys II's half-sisters Baela and Rhaena, and some of Rhaena's five daughters could have married into some rather obscure houses like the Dondarrions and Penroses.

We can be reasonably sure that this theory is definitely true for the Penroses considering that George actually changed Queen Aelinor from Aelinor Targaryen, Aerys I's sister, to Aelinor Penrose, Aerys I's cousin.

Probably he saw that the idea of Daeron II having daughters as well as four sons would cause problems with the whole Dornish marriage - why marrying his sister and not a daughter to the Prince of Dorne? Why not use one of his daughters to make a permanent peace with Daemon Blackfyre, and so forth.

I'm not completely sure Rhaegel's Arryn wife is descended from Rhaena, but Dyanna Dayne pretty easily could - say, if one of Rhaena's daughters living at court fell in love with the heir of Starfall while the man was a hostage at KL after Daeron I had conquered Dorne. Baelor I later on could have given them leave to marry to stabilize the peace he made with Dorne. Later on a daughter from that union, Dyanna, came to court to attend Queen Mariah and thus she and Maekar could have met.

[Paxter Redwyne]

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is from George's original descriptions of the Princesses in the Maidenvault he gave Amok for the first portraits of the girls. From that we also know that Princess Elaena lived at least to the age of seventy, meaning that she is going to live through the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, making it very likely that we are going to meet her in a future Dunk & Egg story.

Considering that Daena played no role whatsoever during the Blackfyre Rebellion and did apparently nothing to preserve peace between Daemon and Daeron II we can be reasonably certain that she might not even have lived into the reign of Daeron II. In fact, I assume that Daena died before Aegon IV actually acknowledged Daemon as his son, making it possible that the man was lying there and Daemon Blackfyre never was his son. If Daena never confirmed that - which she apparently never did - then the Unworthy might have just jumped on the chance to add another bastard to his own to get himself a tool to make things more difficult to Daeron. But that's just a funny idea of mine.

The fact that Barbra Bracken was a lady-in-waiting of the Princesses in the Tower makes it very likely that she, perhaps already having an affair with Aegon, set Daena up to end up in her cousin's arms - the whole thing being a ploy to ruin her reputation to ensure the eventual rise of Viserys II and then Aegon IV to the Iron Throne. After all, Baelor's immediate heirs were his sisters, not his uncle and cousin.

There is nothing about daena's early death. And her lack of contribution during first blackfyre rebellion doesn't prove anything. Until we will get any information we should not take anything for certain.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that either the Penroses or the Dondarrions would have been important enough on their own merit to justify that the king married the Prince of Dragonstone and his second son to daughters from those houses makes no sense at all. They are both minor houses one would even consider to be beneath the Blackwoods (who were a former royal house) yet we do know that Egg's later marriage to Betha Blackwood would have been a scandal, according to Yandel, if he hadn't been at the very end of the line of succession. But Baelor Breakspear and Aerys were at the top of the line of succession when their matches were made - Baelor was the Prince of Dragonstone, and Aerys second in line.

I have no problem with Baelor and Aerys marrying women from minor stormlander houses as it can be seen as part of Daeron II policy to please lords after incorporating dorne into realm. Dondarrions and probably Penroses are from Dornish Marches and by marrying his sons to daughters of marcher lords he would assure that they will not cause any turnmoil after making their greatest enemies (dornishmen) most privileged part of realm.

However it really bothers me that Daeron II married his cousin to some incompetent noblemen who could not be even lord. Royal princesses are way to high match for some second son of some third-tier house.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not completely sure Rhaegel's Arryn wife is descended from Rhaena, but Dyanna Dayne pretty easily could - say, if one of Rhaena's daughters living at court fell in love with the heir of Starfall while the man was a hostage at KL after Daeron I had conquered Dorne. Baelor I later on could have given them leave to marry to stabilize the peace he made with Dorne. Later on a daughter from that union, Dyanna, came to court to attend Queen Mariah and thus she and Maekar could have met.

Everyone in Westeros hated Dorne after they have murdered Daeron I under peace banner. I don't think that such marriage could occur. Maekar was fourth son and he could marry for love like later his son aegon. From what we know, he never remarried after death of his wife so he probably was very affected by her death. And not all dornishmen were happy about peace with Iron Throne as Yronwoods later took part in blackfyre rebellion, so maybe by choosing Dyanna Dayne as wife for Maekar he wanted to ensure that Daynes would stay calm.

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

There is nothing about daena's early death. And her lack of contribution during first blackfyre rebellion doesn't prove anything. Until we will get any information we should not take anything for certain.

It is there, implicitly, you have to go to the description of Princess Elaena. I quote:

' Elaena lived a much longer life than her sister Daena, and a much more tumultuous one than her sister Rhaena. '

The fact that Elaena lived 'much longer' than Daena confirms that Daena died early in her life. Else Elaena wouldn't have lived 'much longer'.

Besides, even if George had changed that there is no reason whatsoever to believe that Princess Daena was ever allowed to remarry after she left the Maidenvault.

25 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I have no problem with Baelor and Aerys marrying women from minor stormlander houses as it can be seen as part of Daeron II policy to please lords after incorporating dorne into realm. Dondarrions and probably Penroses are from Dornish Marches and by marrying his sons to daughters of marcher lords he would assure that they will not cause any turnmoil after making their greatest enemies (dornishmen) most privileged part of realm.

If that was the case one would expect the Lords of the Realm to be outraged by choosing such lowborn brides for the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne and the second in line. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel, and whoever else was opposing Daeron II's policies to attack the king.

After all, Targaryen blood had already been diluted by Daeron's own marriage to a Dornish princess, resulting in an Heir Apparent who looked common and Dornish rather than Valyrian. This was a problem for Baelor Breakspear's standing with the lords in comparison to Daemon Blackfyre. Daeron II not realizing this and marrying his eldest son to another woman with no Targaryen ancestry would have only added fuel to the fire. You have to keep in mind that part of the royal status of House Targaryen after the loss of the dragons were there semi-divine looks of unnatural beauty. Their looks helped them to keep their aura of specialty they actually lost when they lost their dragons. Further diluting the royal blood could result in many common-looking Targaryen princes, eventually eroding part of their power base.

Yet nothing of this sort is reported. If you go back to TRP you'll realize that choosing a spouse for the king or the Heir Apparent of the Iron Throne was always a delicate matter. Alicent Hightower was accepted thanks to her very noble and esteemed Hightower ancestry, but the favored choice for Viserys' second wife was Laena Velaryon, due to her impeccable Valyrian ancestry. The same goes for Rhaenyra's match - Laenor Velaryon won the day because of his Valyrian ancestry. The only other groom that was considered was the Prince of Dorne for political reasons. The idea that some girl from a minor family could marry the Crown Prince is very unlikely indeed.

On the surface the idea that Daeron II was arranging strictly political matches looks tempting but the truth is that he could not have done this without facing and defeating a major opposition. The great lords of the Realm would have been furious had he just preferred a Dondarrion or Penrose bride over a Lannister, Arryn, Tyrell, Hightower, or Baratheon girl. 

25 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

However it really bothers me that Daeron II married his cousin to some incompetent noblemen who could not be even lord. Royal princesses are way to high match for some second son of some third-tier house.

Not really, Elaena was already soiled goods thanks to her affair with Alyn Velaryon and her 'marriage' to Ossifer Plumm (and the adjacent affair with Aegon IV) and only the daughter of king whose line had been disinherited when Viserys II took the throne.

But this is really a non-issue, anyway. Ran has confirmed that Aelinor Penrose was Aerys I's cousin on the Targaryen side of the family, very much suggesting that Ronnel Penrose had Targaryen ancestors, too, even if he turns out to be not her father but her brother or some other relation.

25 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Everyone in Westeros hated Dorne after they have murdered Daeron I under peace banner. I don't think that such marriage could occur. Maekar was fourth son and he could marry for love like later his son aegon. From what we know, he never remarried after death of his wife so he probably was very affected by her death. And not all dornishmen were happy about peace with Iron Throne as Yronwoods later took part in blackfyre rebellion, so maybe by choosing Dyanna Dayne as wife for Maekar he wanted to ensure that Daynes would stay calm.

We have the example of Aegon the Unworthy's own affair with Cassella Vaith. Even if there was no love between some Targaryen-Hightower girl and the heir or Lord of Starfall, there is still a pretty good chance that Daeron I or Baelor I would have arranged such a marriage against the will of the people involved considering that this could have helped their policies (in Daeron I's to cement his hold on Dorne and in Baelor's case to cement his peace). After all, Baelor I also arranged the marriage between the future Daeron II and Mariah Martell, most likely without ever consulting with his uncle, Prince Viserys, or his cousin, Prince Aegon (the grandfather and father of the boy), in this matter.

A love match or a strictly political match for Maekar is possible but I don't think we can actually say that Maekar never remarried. He had no further children but just as Kiera of Tyrosh was later married to Prince Daeron after Prince Valarr died there is a small chance that Maekar married Queen Aelinor, his brother's widow, after Aerys I's death. A king usually needs a queen for representative purposes and while Maekar's daughters(-in-law) or other sister-in-law could also have filled such roles the Queen Dowager would have been much better suited for this. Aelinor might at that time have been beyond the child-bearing age considering that Aerys and Aelinor most likely married around the same time as Baelor and Maekar (i.e. before the First Blackfyre Rebellion). Aerys I most likely would never have been married to a woman at all had his parents foreseen that he would never consummate his marriage, suggesting that the match was made while the boys were still young (i.e. around the time Daeron II became king).

[Paxter Redwyne]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is there, implicitly, you have to go to the description of Princess Elaena. I quote:

' Elaena lived a much longer life than her sister Daena, and a much more tumultuous one than her sister Rhaena. '

The fact that Elaena lived 'much longer' than Daena confirms that Daena died early in her life. Else Elaena wouldn't have lived 'much longer'.

As Elaena lived over seventy years, Daena could die thirty years before her and still live around forty years and see Saeron II on the throne. Elaena lived so long than most people died long before her.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, Targaryen blood had already been diluted by Daeron's own marriage to a Dornish princess, resulting in an Heir Apparent who looked common and Dornish rather than Valyrian. This was a problem for Baelor Breakspear's standing with the lords in comparison to Daemon Blackfyre. Daeron II not realizing this and marrying his eldest son to another woman with no Targaryen ancestry would have only added fuel to the fire. You have to keep in mind that part of the royal status of House Targaryen after the loss of the dragons were there semi-divine looks of unnatural beauty. Their looks helped them to keep their aura of specialty they actually lost when they lost their dragons. Further diluting the royal blood could result in many common-looking Targaryen princes, eventually eroding part of their power base.

Targaryens before took brides from houses that had no targaryen blood. There were two hightower queens before. I know that targaryens then had dragons, but still lords were pretty ok with that. 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

On the surface the idea that Daeron II was arranging strictly political matches looks tempting but the truth is that he could not have done this without facing and defeating a major opposition. The great lords of the Realm would have been furious had he just preferred a Dondarrion or Penrose bride over a Lannister, Arryn, Tyrell, Hightower, or Baratheon girl.

If there were no brides from great houses, there wouldn't be any outrage. And Rhaegel have married woman from house Arryn. Besides Daeron II already met opposition for joining Dorne into Seven Kingdoms. Jena Dondarrion could have some targaryen blood, but if he was going just for that he could let baelor breakspear marry velaryon. 

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not really, Elaena was already soiled goods thanks to her affair with Alyn Velaryon and her 'marriage' to Ossifer Plumm (and the adjacent affair with Aegon IV) and only the daughter of king whose line had been disinherited when Viserys II took the throne.

But this is really a non-issue, anyway. Ran has confirmed that Aelinor Penrose was Aerys I's cousin on the Targaryen side of the family, very much suggesting that Ronnel Penrose had Targaryen ancestors, too, even if he turns out to be not her father but her brother or some other relation.

Even with Targaryen blood, he was still very bad match. And already soiled, there still would be many lords willing to marry her. 

 

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have the example of Aegon the Unworthy's own affair with Cassella Vaith. Even if there was no love between some Targaryen-Hightower girl and the heir or Lord of Starfall, there is still a pretty good chance that Daeron I or Baelor I would have arranged such a marriage against the will of the people involved considering that this could have helped their policies (in Daeron I's to cement his hold on Dorne and in Baelor's case to cement his peace). After all, Baelor I also arranged the marriage between the future Daeron II and Mariah Martell, most likely without ever consulting with his uncle, Prince Viserys, or his cousin, Prince Aegon (the grandfather and father of the boy), in this matter.

Aegon was fucked nearly every woman he met. He is bad example.

Both Daeron and Baelor cared more about war or praying than ruling kingdom. For what we know Baelor arranged only one marriage when making peace with dorne. 

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A love match or a strictly political match for Maekar is possible but I don't think we can actually say that Maekar never remarried. He had no further children but just as Kiera of Tyrosh was later married to Prince Daeron after Prince Valarr died there is a small chance that Maekar married Queen Aelinor, his brother's widow, after Aerys I's death. A king usually needs a queen for representative purposes and while Maekar's daughters(-in-law) or other sister-in-law could also have filled such roles the Queen Dowager would have been much better suited for this. Aelinor might at that time have been beyond the child-bearing age considering that Aerys and Aelinor most likely married around the same time as Baelor and Maekar (i.e. before the First Blackfyre Rebellion). Aerys I most likely would never have been married to a woman at all had his parents foreseen that he would never consummate his marriage, suggesting that the match was made while the boys were still young (i.e. around the time Daeron II became king).

Aelinor Penrose died a virgin, so this theory falls. And Kiera of Tyrosh had daughter Vaella with Daeron.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

As Elaena lived over seventy years, Daena could die thirty years before her and still live around forty years and see Saeron II on the throne. Elaena lived so long than most people died long before her.

Or not. But then, I'm not insisting that she died all that young. But then, we have no reason to believe she was there when Daemon was acknowledged or during the Blackfyre Rebellion.

7 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Targaryens before took brides from houses that had no targaryen blood. There were two hightower queens before. I know that targaryens then had dragons, but still lords were pretty ok with that.

Yeah, because House Hightower had very noble blood. Possibly even the noblest blood of Westeros considering their vast wealth and ancient bloodline.

Dondarrions and Penroses are effectively peasants in comparison to the Hightowers of Oldtown.

And Maegor's other brides were desperate measures. The man desperately wanted to father a child of his own body.

7 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

If there were no brides from great houses, there wouldn't be any outrage. And Rhaegel have married woman from house Arryn. Besides Daeron II already met opposition for joining Dorne into Seven Kingdoms. Jena Dondarrion could have some targaryen blood, but if he was going just for that he could let baelor breakspear marry velaryon.

Why shouldn't there be an outrage? Lannisters, Arryns, Starks, and the like might not have been willing to submit to some half-Dondarrion king. Not to mention that they might have had daughters they would have liked to marry to the Crown Prince.

There is no reason to believe there were Velaryon girls in the right age to marry any of Daeron II's sons. Besides, I'm not saying that Daeron II did not prefer a Dondarrion or Penrose cousin to a Velaryon cousin. That's certainly possible and would be a political statement.

7 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Even with Targaryen blood, he was still very bad match. And already soiled, there still would be many lords willing to marry her. 

You have no idea what standing the Penroses had at that point in Westerosi history. They could have been much more wealthy and powerful than they are now, for whatever reason. Perhaps because they distinguished themselves during the Conquest of Dorne?

7 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Aegon was fucked nearly every woman he met. He is bad example.

He is a perfect example for a person falling in love with a Dornish hostage. 

7 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Both Daeron and Baelor cared more about war or praying than ruling kingdom. For what we know Baelor arranged only one marriage when making peace with dorne.

That is just ridiculous. Baelor was the king. He ruled the Realm. And he made rather severe decision like annulling his own marriage or interfering in Aegon's marriage (by sending the guy away to Braavos so he could no longer have intercourse with Naerys). If there were any marriages in the extended Targaryen family it would have been his call to make (just as it was apparently Daeron I's call to make that Baelor married Daena during his reign).

7 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Aelinor Penrose died a virgin, so this theory falls. And Kiera of Tyrosh had daughter Vaella with Daeron.

She did? Where did you read that? The latter is just an example for a prince marrying some widow. Maekar could have done something similar. Or not. It is just an idea.

[Paxter Redwyne]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Or not. But then, I'm not insisting that she died all that young. But then, we have no reason to believe she was there when Daemon was acknowledged or during the Blackfyre Rebellion.

We have no reason to believe that she was dead when Aegon acknowledged Daemon too. It can go any way.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why shouldn't there be an outrage? Lannisters, Arryns, Starks, and the like might not have been willing to submit to some half-Dondarrion king. Not to mention that they might have had daughters they would have liked to marry to the Crown Prince.

There is no reason to believe there were Velaryon girls in the right age to marry any of Daeron II's sons. Besides, I'm not saying that Daeron II did not prefer a Dondarrion or Penrose cousin to a Velaryon cousin. That's certainly possible and would be a political statement.

Why then lords did not rebel when they had half-Dayne king, half-Martell king or half-Blackwood king? 

If there is no reason to believe that there were no velaryon girls to marry, why we have reason to believe that there were lannister, baratheon or tyrell girl to marry? There are too many assumptions. No matter why he chose Dondarrion bride, it certainly was good choice too calm down marcher lords from both reach and stormlands who fought dornishmen for centuries.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He is a perfect example for a person falling in love with a Dornish hostage. 

After Daeron's death at the hands of dornishmen even he wanted to kill hostages. Baelor was only known person who wanted to spare them.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just ridiculous. Baelor was the king. He ruled the Realm. And he made rather severe decision like annulling his own marriage or interfering in Aegon's marriage (by sending the guy away to Braavos so he could no longer have intercourse with Naerys). If there were any marriages in the extended Targaryen family it would have been his call to make (just as it was apparently Daeron I's call to make that Baelor married Daena during his reign).

Viserys most likely was the one who arranged sending Aegon to Braavos. He was the one who actually ruled Seven Kingdoms during his reign. 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She did? Where did you read that? The latter is just an example for a prince marrying some widow. Maekar could have done something similar. Or not. It is just an idea.

You are right, in World of Ice and Fire there was only stated that Aelinor marriage with Aerys was never consummed. But well, if Maekar married his brother's wife it would probably be stated in World of Ice and Fire. Marrying widow after king is rather too big thing to bypass.

[Shuvuuia]

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why shouldn't there be an outrage? Lannisters, Arryns, Starks, and the like might not have been willing to submit to some half-Dondarrion king. Not to mention that they might have had daughters they would have liked to marry to the Crown Prince.

There is no reason to believe there were Velaryon girls in the right age to marry any of Daeron II's sons. Besides, I'm not saying that Daeron II did not prefer a Dondarrion or Penrose cousin to a Velaryon cousin. That's certainly possible and would be a political statement.

If we are speculating, couldn't Jena Dondarrion just be half/quarter-Baratheon, then if her mother/grandmother was visible enough at court, the great houses would be ok with it? Lyonel seemed somewhat familiar with the princes in THK.

(btw, i kinda think it is better for Jena and Manfred to be second cousins or similar relationship, then there is less retcon for how Dunk, who is very aware of people's status, is so quick to go speak with Manfred)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 18-11-2016 at 9:19 AM, Lord Varys said:

Assuming George is going to do that. 'Fire and Blood' could shed more light on the Targaryens on Dragonstone and/or mentioning some of the names of the famous Targaryen dragonlords back in Valyria, but he could also just ignore that period entirely, focusing only on the history of the Targaryens in Westeros.

I can only hope that he'll include the Targaryens on Dragonstone during the Century of Blood..

 

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But I must say with Alyssa actually having a Targaryen mother it gets even more likely that she also was a dragonrider. We know the Targaryens had plenty of unclaimed dragons during the reign of the Conqueror and who if not Prince Aenys' wife should have been given permission to claim one of the hatchlings? Not to mention that Alyssa once mocked Maegor because he was apparently too cowardly to mount one of the young dragons.

I found this passage in TWOIAF today

What followed in the sudden vacuum was chaos. The dragonlords had been gathered in Valyria as was their wont...except for Aenar Targaryen, his children, and his dragons, who had fled to Dragonstone and so escaped the Doom.

This passage discusses the surviving dragonlords, going on to discuss the few who remained in the Free Cities but were killed shortly after the Doom.

Of course, Aenar brought only five dragons, and assuming that one was for him and two others for his children (Daenys and Gaemon), there were only two more dragons left (at the time the family moved from Valyria). Who knows who claimed them.

The late reign of Jaehaerys I and the reign of Viserys I might tell us more. Princess Rhaenys's children were allowed to claim dragons, even though the inheriting line was Baelon and his children - both Laena and Laenor claimed their dragons a while after Baelon was chosen as heir to the Throne over Rhaenys. Perhaps that also had something to do with Corlys's ancestry (assuming he descends from Rhaena), in which case a Targaryen branch closely related to the main branch might also claim dragons, as long as there are enough to claim.

 

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It is not just that, it is likely that Vaemond's faction of the Velaryon family wouldn't have backed Rhaenyra and Daemon during the Dance. After all, Rhaenyra had Daemon execute Vaemond and fed his carcass to Syrax while Viserys I punished Vaemond's wife, sons, and brothers. The fact that Corlys and Rhaenys later stood firmly at Rhaenyra's side, with Corlys later legitimizing his own bastards as Laenor's heirs strongly suggests that Vaemond's kin lost all standing with Lord Corlys on Driftmark.

What could they do? They were a side-branch only. Velaryon command belonged to Corlys, and Corlys originally supported Rhaenyra. Whether Vaemond's siblings and sons supported her or not would have changed little during the time when Corlys still supported her. And following Corlys's imprisonment, at least as far as we know, House Velaryon supported no one.

 

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Thinking a little bit more on this thing there is perhaps a chance that Daeron was a son of one of Vaemond's brothers. They went with Vaemond's wife and sons to KL but it is nowhere stated that Vaemond's brothers took their families with them. And considering that one assumes that Vaemond was a pretty old man already at this point (we have to keep in mind that Corlys Velaryon married rather late, with his younger brother(s) possibly having children long before him), with his sons also already being men grown (I don't think Viserys I would have taken the tongues of children), we could reasonably assume that one of Vaemond's tongueless brothers could have already a son, Daeron, who already had a six-year-old daughter, Daenaera, in 133 AC.

While we can guess about Vaemond's age, we can't say anything specific. While Corlys married when he was only in his late thirties, that doesn't mean anything for Vaemond. He could have married at an early age, he could have married at a later age..

As to the age of his children.. I'd assume that they were at least close to the age of 14-16, if not older, when they went to KL (I can't really picture an 8 year old child complaining to the King). Since no grandchildren for Vaemond have been mentioned, I am not going to assume for now that any of his children were already married.

 

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We have to keep in mind that Baela and Rhaena presented Daenaera to their royal half-brother, effectively arranging this marriage. Especially Baela, the new Lady of Driftmark, most likely wouldn't have done that if her branch of the Velaryon family was unruly or tainted. If Daeron was one of the tongueless Velaryons, or closely related to those it could have been rather risky for Baela to put Daenaera into the bed of the king. Aegon III could easily enough have decided to reconsider the succession of Driftmark a few years later, resulting in Daenaera's brother or cousin being granted the lordship and Alyn and Baela losing it.

Yes, but why? Was that because Daenaera was the only female Velaryon at that moment who was reasonably close in age to the King?

Either way, even if Daeron had his tongue removed (which is by absolutely no means certain), he had not offended Aegon III in any way.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The question under what circumstances Vhagar hatched is pretty interesting. But I doubt we'll ever get an answer to that. However, I think we have to go with the assumption that Meraxes hatched pretty much immediately after the Targaryens settled on Dragonstone to make it believable that she was larger at her death in 10 AC then Vhagar was in 130 AC.

Text

Good points! Though one thing to perhaps consider (somewhat) counter to that is Vhagar may have had slowed growth for decades after Visenya's death if housed in the Dragonpit (assuming that is story is true, which I think it is, just not to the extreme degree some versions claim). Particularly if Baelon "the Brave", not Prince of Dragonstone for a long time (& my headcanon is he served his father as Master of Laws besides), rode Vhagar after Visenya - fits well timeline-wise with his death in 101AC for Laena to be able to claim the dragon by 105AC (I subscribe to the thought that Vhagar was effectively a consolation after the Great Council for Corlys & Rhaenys' line that they got dibs - Laenor had already been allowed to claim Seasmoke, after all). Then there's also the gradually falling levels of magic in the world post-Doom slowing dragon growth argument. But yeah, Meraxes must have been many decades before Vhagar.

I agree with your ideas on the pre-Conquest Targ names & scenarios, too.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think the man was Alyssa's brother. Considering that Maegor had Alyssa and her children (aside from Aegon and Rhaena) in his custody from the start it is quite unlikely that Driftmark would have openly turned against the king in the early years. And later on - well, as long as Alyssa and Jaehaerys made no move there was no need to. It is likely the man bided his time as a lot of people did.

If Daemon wasn't all that much older than Alyssa it is easily imaginable that he lived to a rather old age, dying, say, in the late 70s or even 80s.

Yeah absolutely, even with that (likely) degree of relation. Visenya certainly was a political player in those sorts of regards at least.

Well considering Corlys wouldn't have started his voyages until around c.70AC my guess is that Daemon wouldn't have died until after 80AC, perhaps even closer to 90AC. Though Corlys of course could've completed his journeys (until recently I thought it may have extended towards around even 100AC) earlier or perhaps Daemon was younger than Alyssa. Whatever the case, Jaehaerys' reign was seemingly far more better for life expectancy than his uncle, father, & even grandfather.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, especially considering that his children would inherit Driftmark and would remain the prime candidates to remarry into the royal family should Jaehaerys I and Alysanne produce not enough sons and daughters. Alyssa married own daughter Jocelyn to her eldest grandson, Prince Aemon, and might have intended to pick a Velaryon daughter (from Rhaena and her hypothetical Velaryon husband) as bride for Prince Baelon, or another of Jaehaerys' sons. That nothing came of that might have been due to the fact that Corlys never had any sisters.

Absolutely Alyssa was the power behind the Aemon-Jocelyn match. Even if she had already passed (it wasn't until c.70AC, after all), she would've been the influence. Mmm, I'd never considered that for a Rhaena-Velaryon daughter being married to Baelon or another brother of his. I suppose because Vaegon was his only other brother to survive to adulthood & thinking that Alyssa was married to Vaegon to consolidate their lines & "keep the blood of the dragon pure" (perhaps in mind for a hypothetical daughter of theirs to marry a hypothetical son of Aemon & Jocelyn, with her less-Valyrian Baratheon blood, or even vice versa). But yes, I'd also guess that Corlys had no sisters, particularly for the amount of nephews he had (+2 younger brothers likely, only 1 brother quite unlikely?) makes it easier timeline-wise for Rhaena to be the mother (without having to push to Alyssa Velaryon territory - though Alysanne herself was likely at least 30, if not 35, when she had Gael imo - w/o having to be in near continuous pregnancy & aftermath - I think Gael was born c.75AC when Alysanne was ~39).

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And we see the Targaryen-Velaryon axis again with Rhaenys and Corlys - when that match was made Prince Aemon most certainly believed that his only child would one day succeed him as the first Queen Regnant of Westeros, and he chose the most prestigious husband she could possibly have for her. Corlys Velaryon was much more impressive than Prince Viserys or Prince Daemon - and he might have had as much Targaryen blood as the sons of Baelon and Alyssa, possibly through the elder line.

Great points! Something else I've been turned towards instead recently - I used to think it more likely that Rhaenys was only married to Corlys after Aemon's death & the Baelon preference, but now I think it quite unlikely (& far prefer it beforehand).

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not definitive proof but a strong hint. In addition, we have to keep in mind that Laena claiming Vhagar is a very odd thing in any scenario. Her riding the largest dragon alive shifted a lot of power to the Targaryen-Velaryon branch of the family, and she must have mounted her after Jaehaerys I decided to name Baelon his heir.

Do you mean Viserys was named Jaehaerys' heir? Because Laena was born the year the after Baelon became Prince of Dragonstone.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is also imaginable that Alyn and Baela simply had no daughters or granddaughters a Targaryen prince could marry. At least not in the right age. There was no need for brides outside the family until Daeron II looked for brides for his sons - and he might actually have chosen non-Velaryon Targaryen cousins (descendants of the five daughter of Rhaena Targaryen by Garmund Hightower).

Possibly. And true for no political need until Daeron II's reign. But that Daeron I didn't marry obvious candidate Daena (or even betroth himself to Rhaena or Elaena), seems like he was keeping himself free for one of his great lords' daughter/sister/cousin/niece/aunt or perhaps even a Dornishwoman if needs be (or perhaps even say a Lyseni bride). We know he betrothed Rhaena to the Sealord of Braavos (the MUSH couldn't imply he was whacked by a Faceless Man, at least in that canon, any more unless it straight out said it) in a political match, so he wasn't just a vainglorious warmonger. The weird one is marrying Daena & Baelor ... I'm guessing her specifically because she was the one closest in age to him. & a sister for the already extremely pious brother for the hope they'd have daughter/s he could marry back to (mingled) son/s of his own if need be (& again, perhaps even vice versa). I'd guess that Baelor & Daena's marriage was either late in 160AC or right before Daeron returned to Dorne for his last campaign for there to have not been more pressure for a consummation.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't seem likely that Daena the Defiant remarried after her annulment. We know she died young. Jena Dondarrion is likely to have had Targaryen blood (through one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls). Aelinor Penrose is confirmed as a Targaryen cousin, and this also explains why the hell Princess Elaena was married to this Ronnel Penrose guy - they were both Targaryen cousins through the female line, with Aelinor possibly being Ronnel's daughter from a first wife. It is quite clear that Elaena-Ronnel was a political match.

How young though? Even if she lived to see Daemon die, Elaena still lived until at least 220AC (seven hells I want to see her live to at least Egg's ascension!), so she could've easily still long outlived Daena. It would also make things even more interesting if Daena was around for all the "mistress wars" & even after when Daemon was being pushed (perhaps by her too) by his followers to rebel. My thoughts for Daena as Jena's mother are:

• Name similarity. Poor "evidence" I know, but they are rather close considering any other name that Jena could've been called.
• A Daena-Dondarrion match would make a great deal of sense for Viserys to organise after Baelor's death for the same reasons why Baelor Breakspear's was to Jena (besides what we're guessing was trying to get Valyrian features back into the main Targaryen line - Valarr did have blue eyes & the silver-gold streak after all when his father had Mariah's hair & seemingly her dark brown/black eyes; Terros genetics means such are more likely to come from Jena than skipped from Baelor). Plus also just to marrying her off considering she'd just had Daemon (obviously by Prince Aegon) & try to avoid him having brother/s &/or sister/s. I'm guessing Viserys allowed Rhaena to become a septa pretty much straight after the Maidenvault, if only to help explain how she was the only cousin Aegon never went there with. As much as Viserys was too easy on Daeron & Baelor as a boon to what his own brother had to live through & their bond, he did care for his nieces too as well it seems given the (possible, depends on when they were) slight-martial freedoms afforded to Daena, but also of course the influence on Elaena (obviously despite Baelor's limitations, the Hand had access to the Maidenvault). Besides his untimely death, perhaps such was why Viserys didn't get around to making a match for Elaena, though admittedly she had likely already started her relationship with Oakenfist. Viserys would have good reasons to support a marriage between Elaena & Alyn too (if/when Baela had passed).
• Even Aegon IV could've made the match, not one politically nuanced, but just a "fuck you" to Dorne he would certainly like to take.
• The Dondarrions already had close links to the Targs (in the MUSH - this theory obviously is very dependent on this being a semi-canon part instead of a fanon one). Ser Doran was once Baelor's sworn shield when he was a prince & would know Daena to some degree, & Lady Carmella is a lady-in-waiting to Daena anyway (friend? Likely. Helped her escape from the Maidenvault once or twice? Possibly). Ser Anders is thus far unwed. Doran's wife is childless & perhaps could take an ASoIaF classic of death by pregnancy/birth. They're mother is an Yronwood, which is even more of a bonus for a Daena-Dondarrion political match.
• Not so much evidence, but the timing of Daena having Jena c.172AC would work with her in turn having Valarr by 188AC, for him not to be younger than Tywin (assuming Daeron named Valarr his Hand after Baelor).

But yeah, descent from Baela or Rhaena certainly would work too. Something interesting about Aelinor I don't see brought up much is her obvious Targaryen name, which may point at greater Targaryen lineage (son of Alyn & Baela marrying a daughter of Rhaena & Garmund? Or Daena is a possibility here too, even with my preference for Jena instead?) &/or having Valyrian features. But yes, an earlier marriage child of Ronnel (particularly if he had Targaryen lineage himself) is certainly possible, nice thought. What do you think about the timing of Aerys & Aelinor's marriage? I'm guessing post 1st BfR, perhaps even only when (my headcanon is it was a double ceremony) or after Valarr had to be married to Kiera (o/w if the right age, Aelinor would be towards the top of the list of his potential partners; because Daella, Rhae, Aelora & little Daenora (if even born yet) were so much younger). Elaena & Ronnel certainly were a political match, but there is a lineage link possibility there too as we've speculated.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I only wanted to point out that the Qoherys family should not be imagined as an important Valyrian family.

Fair enough. Yeah I don't think they were anywhere near important in Valyria (even among non-dragonlord families, even assuming House Qoherys was a thing back then & not some Targ, Velaryon or Celtigar cadet branch post-Doom; or ex-Free Cities nobility). By the time of the Conquest only very minor lords/"average" landed knights on a Westerosi scale, only brought higher by Quentyn's association with Aegon, Visenya & Orys at least; but likely already ennobled.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thinking about that - those tongueless Velaryons could very easily have died during the Sack of Driftmark. A lot of people died during this entire episode - it would be easily imaginable that the Velaryon family tree was cut down in size to just Corlys and Daeron's branches.

Huh, great point. And that's assuming they were still even around on Driftmark & hadn't died before/been killed or exiled. Corlys or Rhaenys (even after Vaemond's "accusations" & the others' support) aren't necessarily, though possibly, that type, but we don't know what Daeron was like or if Daemon or Rhaenyra or even Viserys pulled anything further. But anyway, I agree there's a fair chance the Velaryons were reduced to just Corlys (minus the "Velaryon" boys, both ways) & Daeron's lines after the Dance. It would help to further explain the Velaryon declines.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is difficult to speculate about any of that because Ran has told us that they had to cut so much material there. We don't really have a good sketch of the Regency aside from a few key characters and their actions. But my gut feeling there is that Alyn Velaryon acted on his own when he brought Prince Viserys back. I don't think the regents sanctioned any of that. He would have done it for his wife, and his brother-in-law, Aegon III.

Considering that Alyn and Baela most likely were second in line to the Iron Throne while Viserys was still believed to be dead this would be a a really noble act.

Seems like I misread/misremembered that Peake & the Regents sent Alyn there. Huh, that makes a great deal of sense (another thing I'm now turned to!). Actually even more so as I think (in conjunction with custody over Viserys) that Sharako Lohare is "the Lyseni admiral assassinated by a rival" (Lysandro Rogare) "for the affections of the Black Swan", hence (part-wise) how she "becomes the ruler of Lys in all but name" (I'm assuming uses the family bank to take control of Lys & fracture away from the rest of the Triarchy, when he declares himself First Magister for life). Lysandro dies c.131 (or 133 at the latest), Johanna stays on of her own accord/power or perhaps she isn't so boss that Lysaro &/or Moredo keep her on. Likely triggered by news of Jaehaera's death, Johanna gets word out of that Viserys is alive & well in Lys (herself, the brother/s, or the Bank demanding a ransom still though). Close by Sunspear hears first & Aliandra sends a raven off to Alyn at Casterly Rock (& not to KL in my old alternate, or still to Alyn at CR, but him sending one to KL before taking any action). Oakenfist finishes his first great voyage picking up Viserys from Lys ... Huh, just noticed: Lohare & Rogare name similarity. Distant, but feuding kin?! Probably not.

Oakenfist! <3

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We can hope. If she had a dragon it is difficult to say how long she kept it. I assume Maegor would have killed it after he took over. But then, she could always have picked another hatchling later on.

Though it would've made Storm's End even more of a target (though the strength of that castle - particularly if GEotD-era fused black stone - & Maegor's woes & focuses elsewhere, helped them pull through til 48AC), a dragon (& Vermithor &/or Silverwing may have already been there ridden by the kids) would've made it more defensible. Hilarious if Alyssa goes on to claim Balerion or Vhagar!

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is still a rather presumptuous power-grabbing move. To be sure, Driftmark was the richest lordship of Westeros at that time. There was a lot of wealth involved so that people most likely easily forgot the bonds of kinship (and one should keep that in mind for the Lannister succession should something happen to Cersei and her children - Casterly Rock is the richest lordship in Westeros and there are a lot of Lannisters around who might secretly dream to be Lord of Casterly Rock).

It is known.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is certainly a chance for that but the fact that the historians only talk about this as a rumor make me believe that the truth is simply more obscure than that - meaning either the whole thing is just a rumor caused by Aegon and Orys being so close or Aerion was pretty close to Orys' mother. The fact that we are talking rumors means that the truth was never publicly proclaimed. Which means Aerion did never acknowledge the boy publicly as his son nor did he or Aegon later on legitimize Orys as a Targaryen.

Yeah, good points. Whatever the nature of Aerion's relationship with Orys' mother (besides considering her partner/husband, if she had one, as you've said before), I'd love to get an insight on how Valaena felt about it. Particularly to get a glimpse at her personality & also Targaryen relationships (extent of gender roles & whatnot) on Dragonstone pre-Conquest.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is something to that idea, although I think that many of the stewards with names are actually either disgraced nobility (you only lose your titles not your name) or from cadet branches of lower nobility. The Pooles might have some petty lord cousins, for instance.

Again, this is something (further) MUSH influenced for me. The seats in question (except for Riverrun which is House Grell instead, though Ser Desmond is its master-at-arms in ASoIaF, so perhaps there just wasn't another suitable Grell a/v) besides the Gates of the Moon (a Waxley appointee, the Royce junior branch is likely more recent) or Blackhaven (no published info on steward yet). Those are certainly fair possibilities too, perhaps even a mixture of both.

18 hours ago, Jaak said:

Another example from Reach: Ser Eustace Osgrey mobilized a force of 11 men against Rohanne - namely 8 smallfolk and 3 knights, 1 of whom (himself) was surnamed and landed. Lady Rohanne had 20 times as many smallfolk, so could have mobilized 160 men, if banners were called. She showed up at Chequy Water with 13 knights and 20 archers, leaving her smallfolk unmobilized.

You're also, like I am, assuming that Eustace (via D&E actually being the ones to summon them) mobilised a huge % (at the very least 2/3) of the applicable men from among his smallfolk? Also, however, he had a huge % (itself likely at least a large % of what he could choose from) of his mobilised force then die at the Redgrass Field; further accounting for how few he had in 211AC?

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Still House Penrose is rather minor house.

I wonder if Parchments is not say on the coast between Storm's End & (the base of) Massey's Hook as some fan-made maps suggest, & perhaps in the Dornish Marches instead (in between Blackhaven & Stonehelm? Putting them near the "road" that leads from Summerhall to Yronwood, down the Boneway?) ... This would certainly further explain the Targ matches & also why (besides Ser Cortnay) their forces have been so absent in ASoIaF proper - the Martells have ~10k armies in the Boneway & the Prince's Pass. The other Marcher Houses have been rather absent too - Selmy banners only seen with Renly, Foote not claiming Nightsong yet (though perhaps he couldn't rustle up the strength), Dondarrion forces seemingly not marshaled outside their domains, Lord Swann pretty much only sending his sons (to different sides, initially) & his men. Also, it seems that House Selmy have only recently been raised from landed knights to lords - perhaps the Penroses lost Targaryen favour by doing something bad (really unlikely, but supporting the Black Dragon in the 3rd BfR as retaliation against Aerys for not fully making Aelinor his queen, particularly if she killed herself or something bad happened to her because of Aerys' absence?) & fell at the expense of the Selmys' rise ...

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that Daena played no role whatsoever during the Blackfyre Rebellion and did apparently nothing to preserve peace between Daemon and Daeron II we can be reasonably certain that she might not even have lived into the reign of Daeron II. In fact, I assume that Daena died before Aegon IV actually acknowledged Daemon as his son, making it possible that the man was lying there and Daemon Blackfyre never was his son. If Daena never confirmed that - which she apparently never did - then the Unworthy might have just jumped on the chance to add another bastard to his own to get himself a tool to make things more difficult to Daeron. But that's just a funny idea of mine.

I think you answered yourself there with that last tbh. Aegon IV desired the Iron Throne since he was a boy. I doubt he would want to set up a child not of his blood as his (potential) heir, particularly when he had multiple acknowledged, noble-born both sides, bastards; like Aegor (who was indeed once, as a babe, was a strong threat to Daeron's claim) he could use instead. I must admit it is interesting, if Daena lived that long, that she didn't reveal that Aegon was Daemon's father after Baelor & Viserys died ... Perhaps she wanted the full support of Aegon IV, a rather fickle man in his own ways shall we say, on such so he wouldn't just blow her off. I doubt she was the kind who was a fan of Prince Daeron, & seems like one who would actively push for Daemon over him wherever she could (even when the prince became the king).

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that Barbra Bracken was a lady-in-waiting of the Princesses in the Tower makes it very likely that she, perhaps already having an affair with Aegon, set Daena up to end up in her cousin's arms - the whole thing being a ploy to ruin her reputation to ensure the eventual rise of Viserys II and then Aegon IV to the Iron Throne.

After all, Baelor's immediate heirs were his sisters, not his uncle and cousin.

Possible, though the timeline strongly suggests that Aegon & Daena found each other one way or another on what seems to have been her last escape attempt & ~9 months later Daemon is born in 170AC, then Aegon perhaps returns to Braavos for the last time in the meantime, then is called back to court when Baelor dies & his father ascends, then Barba becomes his new mistress around the time the Maidenvault is unlocked early in 171AC, & finally Aegor is born in 172AC, I do wonder if Barba & her father had a hand in the death of Viserys II, as I assume he was poisoned, to bring Aegon IV to the throne faster & thus their own shot at top-level royal patronage.

I don't recall Viserys ever being named/taking up Prince of Dragonstone & there does seem to have been some room open for interpretation by the lords of the realm (lingering pro-female royal claims even with, perhaps especially from, the Dance? Taking advantage of Viserys' cares for his late brother's children? Idk), but I think it was pretty clear to most by then that Viserys (or his line if he died first) was succeeding Baelor. If Daena, Rhaena, & Elaena were Baelor's definitive immediate heirs (once he was seemingly prepared to have locked away for their entire lives, if he lived long enough, to never marry & have their own heirs o.O) surely there would've been more of a push for Rhaena or Elaena, if Daena was deemed inappropriate? Then there's also Baelor betrothing Prince Daeron to Princess Mariah Martell, & although there was no other male option, Viserys was free for a betrothal to her (or perhaps an older Martell, or even an Yronwood). The intention, whether viewed positively by (some) Dornish & Westerosi supporters of Baelor, or negatively; the idea was that a Martell princess would one day be queen-consort, & a half-Martell would sit the Iron Throne after her husband.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ronnel Penrose was, for some reason, a rather important person. Daeron II also made him his his Master of Coin despite the fact that the man sucked at this job - which is why Elaena had to step in for him. A man like Daeron II would have named a competent man for this job unless he needed the man for a different reason in an important position at court. 

Some very interesting stuff prior to this reply to Paxter (w/o making the thread even longer by quoting it all of course, only to add: "Great points!") ... Anyway, that could certainly be the case or he was just a figurehead for all-but Mistress of Coin Elaena (outright holding of the position of course would be blasphemy some of the jocks surrounding Daemon - though not all, & not necessarily himself), regardless of his (likely) Targaryen lineage.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that either the Penroses or the Dondarrions would have been important enough on their own merit to justify that the king married the Prince of Dragonstone and his second son to daughters from those houses makes no sense at all. They are both minor houses one would even consider to be beneath the Blackwoods (who were a former royal house) yet we do know that Egg's later marriage to Betha Blackwood would have been a scandal, according to Yandel, if he hadn't been at the very end of the line of succession.

The Dondarrions are (& were) powerful Marcher lords (perhaps only with the Carons, Swanns, Conningtons, &/or Penroses themselves with greater military strength than the Baratheons in the Stormlands at that time) whose seat of Blackhaven has an incredibly strategic location of overlooking (well, it's on their lands anyway) the entrance to the Boneway. An idea of Baelor's match to Jena is to create a Targaryen royal line that is Westerosi (incumbent Valyrian-descended Targaryen dynsaty & incumbent Rhoynish-descended Martell principality, joined to ancient Marcher lord - just looking over Jena's likely Targaryen ancestry atm) - it's about unifying all (particularly some of the greatest & most recent belligerents against each) of the realm behind a royal line that shares the same blood. Plus, like I said earlier it may be that Summerhall (by gift, decree or force; the Targaryens got that land from someone - even if it's literally just what the palace itself sat on & had no lands of its own) was Jena's dowry. See (somewhere) above about my thoughts on the "possibilities" of the Penroses.

Perhaps Egg's (potential) scandal was marrying Betha without Maekar's consent (&/or knowledge to seek such) &/or breaking his (presumed) betrothal to Daella. He did marry love, not (potential) duty, after all.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We can be reasonably sure that this theory is definitely true for the Penroses considering that George actually changed Queen Aelinor from Aelinor Targaryen, Aerys I's sister, to Aelinor Penrose, Aerys I's cousin. Probably he saw that the idea of Daeron II having daughters as well as four sons would cause problems with the whole Dornish marriage - why marrying his sister and not a daughter to the Prince of Dorne? Why not use one of his daughters to make a permanent peace with Daemon Blackfyre, and so forth.

I'm not completely sure Rhaegel's Arryn wife is descended from Rhaena, but Dyanna Dayne pretty easily could - say, if one of Rhaena's daughters living at court fell in love with the heir of Starfall while the man was a hostage at KL after Daeron I had conquered Dorne. Baelor I later on could have given them leave to marry to stabilize the peace he made with Dorne. Later on a daughter from that union, Dyanna, came to court to attend Queen Mariah and thus she and Maekar could have met.

Interesting, I've never considered nor even seen that meta interpretation!

I'm not so sure Alys had Targaryen/Velaryon ancestry & if she did, her match was more for politics than blood compared to Baelor-Jena & Aerys-Aelinor - reward the long-loyal Arryns, who had previously received plenty of royal patronage in such marriages a century beforehand for such (perhaps also as a boon by Jaehaerys & Alysanne for what befell Ronnel, his Stark wife, & their kids), after the 1st BfR.

Creative scenario, but the Maekar-Dyanna match (in terms of getting the Targ-look back into the bloodlines) was for her GEotD ancestry (being a Dayne) giving her Valyrian-like features, imo.

@Paxter Redwyne Yes, Daeron (or at the very least, accepting) marrying Maekar to Dyanna was likely part-wise to keep the Daynes on his & the Martells' side, particularly as a buffer against the Yronwoods. Love certainly is possibility to have happened, but perhaps it was a match engineered by Mariah packaged as such to minimise any potential backlash against - especially playing on Maekar being the "unimportant" 4th son.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Besides, even if George had changed that there is no reason whatsoever to believe that Princess Daena was ever allowed to remarry after she left the Maidenvault.

Why not?

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you go back to TRP you'll realize that choosing a spouse for the king or the Heir Apparent of the Iron Throne was always a delicate matter. Alicent Hightower was accepted thanks to her very noble and esteemed Hightower ancestry, but the favored choice for Viserys' second wife was Laena Velaryon, due to her impeccable Valyrian ancestry. The same goes for Rhaenyra's match - Laenor Velaryon won the day because of his Valyrian ancestry. The only other groom that was considered was the Prince of Dorne for political reasons. The idea that some girl from a minor family could marry the Crown Prince is very unlikely indeed.

Again, some well-made points before this grab ... I think the Hightowers are also descended from the GEotD & so have Valyrian-like feature/s in some members, this would further bolster Alicent's standing (as well as earlier, even with his seeming senility, have Jaehaerys mistake her for Saera) & back up the likelihood of all of their children looking Valyrian (Aegon & Helaena married by Alicent part-wise to emphasise such, Aegon looking like his old man, Helaena's "less striking" appearance I'd put down to her weight - not helped by twins at 14! - instead of any non-Targ feature/s, Aemond's sapphire likely to be a similar colour to his other, text specifically says Daeron was such). But yes, Laena would still have been the preferable choice for her lineage & for political reasons.

There was also younger half-brother, Aegon, as a consideration, but yes, no other contenders besides the Prince of Dorne. Presumably this was Qoren & *if* we go by the MUSH (& Viserys not wanting Daemon to succeed, whilst still insisting Rhaenyra would come before her younger half-brothers), then presumably he would effectively abdicate to be her consort on Dragonstone (then the Iron Throne once she succeeded her father) ... Interesting. I've always wondered who put Qoren forward as a possible match, why?

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

On the surface the idea that Daeron II was arranging strictly political matches looks tempting but the truth is that he could not have done this without facing and defeating a major opposition. The great lords of the Realm would have been furious had he just preferred a Dondarrion or Penrose bride over a Lannister, Arryn, Tyrell, Hightower, or Baratheon girl. 

Pretty much. Well, the Arryns seem to have been firmly behind Daeron besides (particularly likely being among his allies when he was Prince of Dragonstone against his father who wouldn't have exactly been fans of him & so by extension not so much on Daemon either, if just for being a bastard, despite legitimisation - there's also that distant Arryn blood the Targs had too from Lord Rodrik). Possibly (though far less likely, when push came to shove I think they mainly supported Daeron over Daemon to maintain the status quo as them as Lord Paramounts over their unruly "seconds") the Lannisters, Hightowers (if just for Rhaena-Garmund, even with only daughters with perhaps none even marrying back into the main Hightower line/s), &/or Baratheons. But the Tyrells are the big one here - not just with marriages, (without more information) Daeron seems to have basically left out the Tyrells & the entire Reach out of his political system at court. Hence (part-wise), Daemon secured so much of the Reach - even considering those playing both sides like the Oakhearts, Hightowers (perhaps scratch Rhaena-Garmund consideration actually) & Tyrells themselves.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, Baelor I also arranged the marriage between the future Daeron II and Mariah Martell, most likely without ever consulting with his uncle, Prince Viserys, or his cousin, Prince Aegon (the grandfather and father of the boy), in this matter.

I disagree on Viserys - he certainly knew what Baelor was about (peace with Dorne) & with Prince Daeron having no sister at this time to marry (with a mother who had difficulty bearing children to say the least), its a good political match in terms of Baelor's policy. I think Viserys was even better as Hand & King then what Jaehaerys I himself was as a monarch.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He had no further children but just as Kiera of Tyrosh was later married to Prince Daeron after Prince Valarr died there is a small chance that Maekar married Queen Aelinor, his brother's widow, after Aerys I's death. A king usually needs a queen for representative purposes and while Maekar's daughters(-in-law) or other sister-in-law could also have filled such roles the Queen Dowager would have been much better suited for this.

As I said previously, I subscribe to a later timing of Aelinor & Aerys marrying, but that is a very intriguing thought ...

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Targaryens before took brides from houses that had no Targaryen blood. There were two Hightower queens before. I know that Targaryens then had dragons, but still lords were pretty ok with that. 

• Hightowers are all but Great Lords.
• Imo, descend from the GEotD & so (some) have Valyrian-like feature/s.
• Lord Manfred, IIRC, was the first (& likely only one of a few, even after Rhaenys' death) to offer Aegon I his daughter (or female relation) in marriage (obviously this isn't counting Argilac with Argella, but the Durrandons were even "higher" than the Hightowers anyway).
• Lady Ceryse's match to Maegor was supported by Aegon I as part of his (tbf, somewhat wisely) tip-toeing where the Faith was involved because the High Septon (funnily enough, her uncle) pretended to be butthurt over the "incest" (Westeros had always practiced avuncular marriages & continued to do so, including later ones of the Targaryens seemingly drawing no ire from the higher-ups in the Faith, if not outright support) of Visenya (with Aegon's approval before this all blew up) betrothing Maegor to his newborn (that's what he should've been protesting about!) half-niece, Rhaena. It's likely (imo) that Oldtown had actually tried to match Ceryse with Aenys, but Aegon wasn't so outplayed then so part-wise why Alyssa Velaryon was married to Aenys instead.
• Viserys married Alicent because he was weak & pressured by Otto & Runciter, especially as the Laena match was perhaps king's own suggestion.
• The last three are influenced in various ways by the Hightowers' GEotD ancestry

[Jaak]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, smallfolk certainly can also own land. We know there are yeomen in the Riverlands, from the sermon of the treasonous septon in TMK. There are peasants who sit on land that's owned by their lord, and there are peasants who own their lands themselves. But they still remain commoners. After all, there can also be rather rich commoners - armorers like Tobho Mott most likely are among the richest men in KL - just as there can be very poor commoners.

The question here is how the Westerosi draw the line between a poor noble and a rich commoner.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How often (vast tracts of) land are actually sold is an interesting matter, though. Considering the feudal nature of the Seven Kingdoms that's not going to happen all that often.

Vast tracts, or small pieces? We do have an example where vast tracts of land were sold - Borrell reports that Starks took Manderly gold. How many Reach hands was the market price of the whole fief of White Harbour?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 18-11-2016 at 5:55 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Princess/Queen Rhaena, widow of Aegon 1.5 & Maegor I, as the mother of Corlys = headcanon:

[...]

• The Sea Snake succeeded his grandsire & considering the timings, I'm guessing that was Lord Daemon. I'm assuming that Daemon was kept by Jaehaerys (Alyssa, especially if Daemon was a close relative like say a brother as has been posited by someone else earlier in the thread, & Robar too) as his own Master of Ships given his support of his claim (plus obvious practicality) & a consolidation of Targ-Velaryon relations (& blood) would be apt with a marriage.
• Rhaena was only 25 when Maegor died & 30 when Corlys was born. Jaehaerys chose Alysanne as his wife instead of his older sister & Robar (eventually, I'd love to know the dynamic & history between those two especially given the age gap - what if Argella was still alive - how would she feel about the match?) married Alyssa. An unnamed son of Lord Daemon would be a natural choice for as (another) husband for Rhaena given all the circumstances.
• As Addam & Alyn are all but confirmed Corlys' sons instead of Laenor's, Addam being able to claim Seasmoke is further bolstered if he had a dragonriding grandmother.

I agree. At the very least, I think she is much more likely than her children. Aerea and Rhalla were born in 41-43 AC, and thus would have been only 10-12 years old when Corlys was born. Rhaena, 30 years old, seems a more likely candidate imo.

Either Daemon, or Daemon's son were Corlys's grandfather, I'd assume. We don't know when Corlys inherited, nor do we know how Daemon relates to Alyssa and the others. Was he Alyssa's sibling (very possible)? Or her nephew?

Agreed on Addam and Alyn.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

We have no reason to believe that she was dead when Aegon acknowledged Daemon too. It can go any way.

It certainly could be. But there is a rather interesting question as to why Aegon IV never acknowledged the boy once he became king. True, while Baelor and Viserys II were still king telling the truth openly might have gotten him into trouble, but afterwards there was no reason not to. After all, Aegon acknowledged all his great bastards upon their birth. One wonders whether Daena's presence had something to do with that.

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Why then lords did not rebel when they had half-Dayne king, half-Martell king or half-Blackwood king? 

Have you read the books? The Martell match to bring Dorne into the Realm was on the table since Viserys I. When Baelor arranged the match it was part of the peace treaty and only involving the grandson of his uncle who, at that time, was not likely to inherit the Iron Throne. Baelor was still married Daena at that time.

Dyanna Dayne can have Targaryen ancestors - but even if she doesn't: She wasn't married to a Prince of Dragonstone or the eldest younger brother of a Prince of Dragonstone. She was married to the fourth son of a king, a man nobody expected to inherit the throne.

The same goes for Egg's Blackwood match. Yandel tells us that there would have been uproar and a scandal had Egg try to marry a Blackwood girl if he had been an immediate heir to the Iron Throne.

Daeron II, Maekar, and Aegon V all had to be accepted by the time their turn came because the Realm had long accepted their wives.

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

If there is no reason to believe that there were no velaryon girls to marry, why we have reason to believe that there were lannister, baratheon or tyrell girl to marry? There are too many assumptions.

Well, those are just examples. It could also have been Tully, Arryn, Royce, Frey, or Rowan girls. Some great house with ambitions would have had some sisters, daughters, nieces or cousins he would want to marry to Daeron II's sons, and to see the king reject them in favor of some Dondarrion or Penrose girl just wouldn't be meekly accepted.

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

No matter why he chose Dondarrion bride, it certainly was good choice too calm down marcher lords from both reach and stormlands who fought dornishmen for centuries.

It didn't work that way, though. There was a Blackfyre Rebellion, you know, and for all we know Daemon had a lot of support from the Marcher Lords.

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

After Daeron's death at the hands of dornishmen even he wanted to kill hostages. Baelor was only known person who wanted to spare them.

And he succeeded in that because he was the king and called the shots. He singlehandedly made peace with the murderers of his brother. What does that tell you about his charisma, determination, and outright power? Baelor the Blessed was one of the most powerful Targaryen kings in Westerosi history.

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Viserys most likely was the one who arranged sending Aegon to Braavos. He was the one who actually ruled Seven Kingdoms during his reign. 

We know that this was Baelor. And the other idea is just crap. Prince Viserys managed the Realm in Baelor's name but Baelor still did and got what he wanted. He built his Great Sept, he did his charities, he chose new High Septons, he threw the whores out of his city, he replaced the ravens with doves, and so on. Viserys only had so much power as his nephew granted him. That was presumably pretty much in things Baelor did not care about but rather little or none in things he wanted to control. Like the peace with Dorne, for instance.

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You are right, in World of Ice and Fire there was only stated that Aelinor marriage with Aerys was never consummed. But well, if Maekar married his brother's wife it would probably be stated in World of Ice and Fire. Marrying widow after king is rather too big thing to bypass.

We know nothing about Maekar's reign. Nothing at all. Everything we read about that in TWoIaF we already knew, not to mention that half of that page covered the Great Council after Maekar's reign. Maekar could have taken six wives during his reign and we had no idea about that.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

If we are speculating, couldn't Jena Dondarrion just be half/quarter-Baratheon, then if her mother/grandmother was visible enough at court, the great houses would be ok with it? Lyonel seemed somewhat familiar with the princes in THK.

That is not very likely considering that we know the Baratheons weren't exactly on good footing with the Iron Throne for years after the Dance. I guess the fact that they most likely firmly stood at Daeron II's side during the First Blackfyre Rebellion might have been the beginning to change that but I see no reason to believe that Daeron II would have married his eldest son to a half-Baratheon of all people.

6 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

(btw, i kinda think it is better for Jena and Manfred to be second cousins or similar relationship, then there is less retcon for how Dunk, who is very aware of people's status, is so quick to go speak with Manfred)

Actually, I like the idea that Baelor learned from Manfred about Dunk and cared so much about him because he was aware that his brother-in-law was a jerk. Dunk certainly doesn't give the impression that he knows that Manfred's sister is married to the Prince of Dragonstone. He doesn't even know how many sons Daeron II has, what their names are, or how many sons they have.

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I found this passage in TWOIAF today

What followed in the sudden vacuum was chaos. The dragonlords had been gathered in Valyria as was their wont...except for Aenar Targaryen, his children, and his dragons, who had fled to Dragonstone and so escaped the Doom.

This passage discusses the surviving dragonlords, going on to discuss the few who remained in the Free Cities but were killed shortly after the Doom.

Of course, Aenar brought only five dragons, and assuming that one was for him and two others for his children (Daenys and Gaemon), there were only two more dragons left (at the time the family moved from Valyria). Who knows who claimed them.

One assumes that all the five dragons of Aenar already had riders by the time they moved to Dragonstone.

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The late reign of Jaehaerys I and the reign of Viserys I might tell us more. Princess Rhaenys's children were allowed to claim dragons, even though the inheriting line was Baelon and his children - both Laena and Laenor claimed their dragons a while after Baelon was chosen as heir to the Throne over Rhaenys. Perhaps that also had something to do with Corlys's ancestry (assuming he descends from Rhaena), in which case a Targaryen branch closely related to the main branch might also claim dragons, as long as there are enough to claim.

I'm inclined to believe that Laena might have inherited Vhagar from her grandfather, Prince Aemon. If Aemon had ridden Vhagar prior to Laena then it is possible that Jaehaerys I wasn't able to secure the dragon (or rather: was unable to prevent that the Velaryons eventually allow Laena to claim her). There were facilities to house dragons permanently on Driftmark, after all, and Laena could have remained there until Laena claimed her.

But we should also keep in mind that we have no idea who rode Dreamfyre between Rhaena and Helaena.

And Meleys could have had a rider prior to Rhaenys, too. She could easily have been the last dragon of Alyssa Velaryon, passing on the dragon to her granddaughter.

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

What could they do? They were a side-branch only. Velaryon command belonged to Corlys, and Corlys originally supported Rhaenyra. Whether Vaemond's siblings and sons supported her or not would have changed little during the time when Corlys still supported her. And following Corlys's imprisonment, at least as far as we know, House Velaryon supported no one.

Ran's recent information revealed that Aegon II was in need of Corlys' support after his restoration. They made a deal, and Corlys forced Aegon II to spare Aegon the Younger's life, betroth him to his daughter, and name him his heir (much to Alicent's chagrin) in exchange for the support of the Velaryon fleet.

But my point more is that Vaemond's children and brothers could easily enough have tried to prevent the rise of the bastard Alyn to the lordship of Driftmark - just as they once tried to prevent Rhaenyra's sons from taking it.

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

While we can guess about Vaemond's age, we can't say anything specific. While Corlys married when he was only in his late thirties, that doesn't mean anything for Vaemond. He could have married at an early age, he could have married at a later age..

As to the age of his children.. I'd assume that they were at least close to the age of 14-16, if not older, when they went to KL (I can't really picture an 8 year old child complaining to the King). Since no grandchildren for Vaemond have been mentioned, I am not going to assume for now that any of his children were already married.

Well, but they could have been. We only know Vaemond's sons went with their mother to KL.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Good points! Though one thing to perhaps consider (somewhat) counter to that is Vhagar may have had slowed growth for decades after Visenya's death if housed in the Dragonpit (assuming that is story is true, which I think it is, just not to the extreme degree some versions claim). Particularly if Baelon "the Brave", not Prince of Dragonstone for a long time (& my headcanon is he served his father as Master of Laws besides), rode Vhagar after Visenya - fits well timeline-wise with his death in 101AC for Laena to be able to claim the dragon by 105AC (I subscribe to the thought that Vhagar was effectively a consolation after the Great Council for Corlys & Rhaenys' line that they got dibs - Laenor had already been allowed to claim Seasmoke, after all). Then there's also the gradually falling levels of magic in the world post-Doom slowing dragon growth argument. But yeah, Meraxes must have been many decades before Vhagar.

Vhagar definitely has a chance to have spend some time in the Dragonpit. However, she would later have spent a much freer life after Laena claimed her. One assumes she wasn't housed in some stable on Driftmark. After Aemond claimed her she would have spend a lot of time in the Dragonpit again. But I actually doubt that this had a huge affect on her. After all, Vermithor and Silverwing would also have spent many years in the Dragonpit and they grew into very large and healthy dragons.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Yeah absolutely, even with that (likely) degree of relation. Visenya certainly was a political player in those sorts of regards at least.

Well considering Corlys wouldn't have started his voyages until around c.70AC my guess is that Daemon wouldn't have died until after 80AC, perhaps even closer to 90AC. Though Corlys of course could've completed his journeys (until recently I thought it may have extended towards around even 100AC) earlier or perhaps Daemon was younger than Alyssa. Whatever the case, Jaehaerys' reign was seemingly far more better for life expectancy than his uncle, father, & even grandfather.

Yeah, the second Daemon Velaryon could easily enough have been Alyssa's younger brother, which means he could have been somewhere in the 10s AC, or so, making it more likely he lived into the 80s.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Absolutely Alyssa was the power behind the Aemon-Jocelyn match. Even if she had already passed (it wasn't until c.70AC, after all), she would've been the influence. Mmm, I'd never considered that for a Rhaena-Velaryon daughter being married to Baelon or another brother of his. I suppose because Vaegon was his only other brother to survive to adulthood & thinking that Alyssa was married to Vaegon to consolidate their lines & "keep the blood of the dragon pure" (perhaps in mind for a hypothetical daughter of theirs to marry a hypothetical son of Aemon & Jocelyn, with her less-Valyrian Baratheon blood, or even vice versa). But yes, I'd also guess that Corlys had no sisters, particularly for the amount of nephews he had (+2 younger brothers likely, only 1 brother quite unlikely?) makes it easier timeline-wise for Rhaena to be the mother (without having to push to Alyssa Velaryon territory - though Alysanne herself was likely at least 30, if not 35, when she had Gael imo - w/o having to be in near continuous pregnancy & aftermath - I think Gael was born c.75AC when Alysanne was ~39).

Things get somewhat confused there since we don't exactly know when Prince Aegon, Jaehaerys I's firstborn son, died. He could have died as an infant but possibly also only as a teenager - and by then they might already decided that his younger brother Aemon would marry Jocelyn Baratheon while Alyssa Targaryen, Jaehaerys I's eldest daughter and eldest surviving child, was supposed to marry her brother Aegon but was then stuck with Baelon after Aegon died.

The logical choice would have been to marry the eldest daughter to the eldest son - this was supposed to be the pair to continue the royal line.

If Aegon had lived Baelon, Aeryn (if he had lived), or Vaegon could have been married to a hypothetical sister of Corlys.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Great points! Something else I've been turned towards instead recently - I used to think it more likely that Rhaenys was only married to Corlys after Aemon's death & the Baelon preference, but now I think it quite unlikely (& far prefer it beforehand).

That doesn't make much sense because then it would have been more likely to marry Rhaenys to Viserys to unite the lines again. We know Viserys only married Aemma around 93 AC, so he was still unmarried in 92 AC. Which means that nothing came of that because Rhaenys was already married at that time.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Do you mean Viserys was named Jaehaerys' heir? Because Laena was born the year the after Baelon became Prince of Dragonstone.

I mean that Laena might have claimed Vhagar while Baelon was still alive and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Possibly. And true for no political need until Daeron II's reign. But that Daeron I didn't marry obvious candidate Daena (or even betroth himself to Rhaena or Elaena), seems like he was keeping himself free for one of his great lords' daughter/sister/cousin/niece/aunt or perhaps even a Dornishwoman if needs be (or perhaps even say a Lyseni bride). We know he betrothed Rhaena to the Sealord of Braavos (the MUSH couldn't imply he was whacked by a Faceless Man, at least in that canon, any more unless it straight out said it) in a political match, so he wasn't just a vainglorious warmonger. The weird one is marrying Daena & Baelor ... I'm guessing her specifically because she was the one closest in age to him. & a sister for the already extremely pious brother for the hope they'd have daughter/s he could marry back to (mingled) son/s of his own if need be (& again, perhaps even vice versa). I'd guess that Baelor & Daena's marriage was either late in 160AC or right before Daeron returned to Dorne for his last campaign for there to have not been more pressure for a consummation.

I think Daeron I was already betrothed at his death - to a daughter of Baela and Alyn. If they had a daughter somewhat younger than Daeron I - say, 3-4 years - it makes sense that he didn't get around to marry her in his lifetime.

Aegon III had a Velaryon queen and Alyn Velaryon was a very prominent figure during the reign of Aegon III and Daeron I. It is not far-fetched at all that his daughter would be the first choice to become the next Queen of Westeros.

In that light the Baelor-Daena match makes sense - if Daeron I wasn't betrothed things get odd.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

How young though? Even if she lived to see Daemon die, Elaena still lived until at least 220AC (seven hells I want to see her live to at least Egg's ascension!), so she could've easily still long outlived Daena. It would also make things even more interesting if Daena was around for all the "mistress wars" & even after when Daemon was being pushed (perhaps by her too) by his followers to rebel. My thoughts for Daena as Jena's mother are:

• Name similarity. Poor "evidence" I know, but they are rather close considering any other name that Jena could've been called.
• A Daena-Dondarrion match would make a great deal of sense for Viserys to organise after Baelor's death for the same reasons why Baelor Breakspear's was to Jena (besides what we're guessing was trying to get Valyrian features back into the main Targaryen line - Valarr did have blue eyes & the silver-gold streak after all when his father had Mariah's hair & seemingly her dark brown/black eyes; Terros genetics means such are more likely to come from Jena than skipped from Baelor). Plus also just to marrying her off considering she'd just had Daemon (obviously by Prince Aegon) & try to avoid him having brother/s &/or sister/s. I'm guessing Viserys allowed Rhaena to become a septa pretty much straight after the Maidenvault, if only to help explain how she was the only cousin Aegon never went there with. As much as Viserys was too easy on Daeron & Baelor as a boon to what his own brother had to live through & their bond, he did care for his nieces too as well it seems given the (possible, depends on when they were) slight-martial freedoms afforded to Daena, but also of course the influence on Elaena (obviously despite Baelor's limitations, the Hand had access to the Maidenvault). Besides his untimely death, perhaps such was why Viserys didn't get around to making a match for Elaena, though admittedly she had likely already started her relationship with Oakenfist. Viserys would have good reasons to support a marriage between Elaena & Alyn too (if/when Baela had passed).
• Even Aegon IV could've made the match, not one politically nuanced, but just a "fuck you" to Dorne he would certainly like to take.
• The Dondarrions already had close links to the Targs (in the MUSH - this theory obviously is very dependent on this being a semi-canon part instead of a fanon one). Ser Doran was once Baelor's sworn shield when he was a prince & would know Daena to some degree, & Lady Carmella is a lady-in-waiting to Daena anyway (friend? Likely. Helped her escape from the Maidenvault once or twice? Possibly). Ser Anders is thus far unwed. Doran's wife is childless & perhaps could take an ASoIaF classic of death by pregnancy/birth. They're mother is an Yronwood, which is even more of a bonus for a Daena-Dondarrion political match.
• Not so much evidence, but the timing of Daena having Jena c.172AC would work with her in turn having Valarr by 188AC, for him not to be younger than Tywin (assuming Daeron named Valarr his Hand after Baelor).

If Daena was Jena's mother that could easily enough have been included in the family tree. But putting in the Dondarrions and Penroses between the Targaryen-Hightower girls and Jena and Aelinor would have been much more complicated.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

But yeah, descent from Baela or Rhaena certainly would work too. Something interesting about Aelinor I don't see brought up much is her obvious Targaryen name, which may point at greater Targaryen lineage (son of Alyn & Baela marrying a daughter of Rhaena & Garmund? Or Daena is a possibility here too, even with my preference for Jena instead?) &/or having Valyrian features. But yes, an earlier marriage child of Ronnel (particularly if he had Targaryen lineage himself) is certainly possible, nice thought. What do you think about the timing of Aerys & Aelinor's marriage? I'm guessing post 1st BfR, perhaps even only when (my headcanon is it was a double ceremony) or after Valarr had to be married to Kiera (o/w if the right age, Aelinor would be towards the top of the list of his potential partners; because Daella, Rhae, Aelora & little Daenora (if even born yet) were so much younger). Elaena & Ronnel certainly were a political match, but there is a lineage link possibility there too as we've speculated.

 

The Penrose thing is really confusing. We have Aelinor Penrose, Ronnel Penrose, and Elaena's son and three daughters by Ronnel. Then there is the fact from TMK that 'Lady Penrose' sons were all killed save the youngest. That Lady Penrose wouldn't have been Elaena.

My way to resolve this is going with Ronnel as the Lord of Parchments, being a son of one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls. From his first wife he had a son, the future Lord of Parchments, and Aelinor (who would marry Prince Aerys), Elaena was his second wife (married early on during the reign of Daeron II) giving him Robin, Laena, Jocelyn, and Joy Penrose (the names Laena and Jocelyn also strongly suggest that Ronnel is descended from Laena Velaryon and Jocelyn Baratheon through Rhaena Targaryen - Joy might actually be Michael Manwoody's daughter).

Now, Ronnel Penrose would already have been dead by the time of the First Blackfyre Rebellion, making his son from his first wife the new Lord of Parchments whose sons were then killed by Fireball during the war.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Though it would've made Storm's End even more of a target (though the strength of that castle - particularly if GEotD-era fused black stone - & Maegor's woes & focuses elsewhere, helped them pull through til 48AC), a dragon (& Vermithor &/or Silverwing may have already been there ridden by the kids) would've made it more defensible. Hilarious if Alyssa goes on to claim Balerion or Vhagar!

Well, that would have been an interesting turn of events. Somebody should/must have claimed the two largest dragons after the deaths of Visenya and Maegor. There is some chance that Maegor might have forced his new heir Aerea to mount Vhagar, considering that he should have been very interested in ensuring that a person he could trust would ride his mother's dragon after her.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Possible, though the timeline strongly suggests that Aegon & Daena found each other one way or another on what seems to have been her last escape attempt & ~9 months later Daemon is born in 170AC, then Aegon perhaps returns to Braavos for the last time in the meantime, then is called back to court when Baelor dies & his father ascends, then Barba becomes his new mistress around the time the Maidenvault is unlocked early in 171AC, & finally Aegor is born in 172AC, I do wonder if Barba & her father had a hand in the death of Viserys II, as I assume he was poisoned, to bring Aegon IV to the throne faster & thus their own shot at top-level royal patronage.

 

Come on, how likely is it that Aegon and Daena should just meet each other by accident? And why would Daena want to have an affair with some cousin she scarcely knew? Something smells fishy there - Aegon was a very capable womanizer and Daena bored and not exactly a sexually experienced woman. This whole thing was likely a setup sold to Daena as a sexual adventure.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

The Dondarrions are (& were) powerful Marcher lords (perhaps only with the Carons, Swanns, Conningtons, &/or Penroses themselves with greater military strength than the Baratheons in the Stormlands at that time) whose seat of Blackhaven has an incredibly strategic location of overlooking (well, it's on their lands anyway) the entrance to the Boneway. An idea of Baelor's match to Jena is to create a Targaryen royal line that is Westerosi (incumbent Valyrian-descended Targaryen dynsaty & incumbent Rhoynish-descended Martell principality, joined to ancient Marcher lord - just looking over Jena's likely Targaryen ancestry atm) - it's about unifying all (particularly some of the greatest & most recent belligerents against each) of the realm behind a royal line that shares the same blood. Plus, like I said earlier it may be that Summerhall (by gift, decree or force; the Targaryens got that land from someone - even if it's literally just what the palace itself sat on & had no lands of its own) was Jena's dowry. See (somewhere) above about my thoughts on the "possibilities" of the Penroses.

Sure, the Dondarrions aren't that poor or completely insignificant but they haven't the proper standing to marry into the royal family, not to mention providing the next queen.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Perhaps Egg's (potential) scandal was marrying Betha without Maekar's consent (&/or knowledge to seek such) &/or breaking his (presumed) betrothal to Daella. He did marry love, not (potential) duty, after all.

That isn't the issue Yandel mentions. Yandel specifically talks about the blood of Egg's bride, not the reason why they marry. Viserys I also loved Alicent, but a king can easily enough marry a Hightower for love.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Interesting, I've never considered nor even seen that meta interpretation!

I'm not so sure Alys had Targaryen/Velaryon ancestry & if she did, her match was more for politics than blood compared to Baelor-Jena & Aerys-Aelinor - reward the long-loyal Arryns, who had previously received plenty of royal patronage in such marriages a century beforehand for such (perhaps also as a boon by Jaehaerys & Alysanne for what befell Ronnel, his Stark wife, & their kids), after the 1st BfR.

 

Yeah, Arryn blood is good enough, we know that. But then, who is to say that one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls didn't marry into House Arryn?

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Creative scenario, but the Maekar-Dyanna match (in terms of getting the Targ-look back into the bloodlines) was for her GEotD ancestry (being a Dayne) giving her Valyrian-like features, imo.

 

I don't think that would allow them to keep those features for millennia. The Valyrians have to practice incest to accomplish this.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Why not?

Because she had once been married to a king who discarded her.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Again, some well-made points before this grab ... I think the Hightowers are also descended from the GEotD & so have Valyrian-like feature/s in some members, this would further bolster Alicent's standing (as well as earlier, even with his seeming senility, have Jaehaerys mistake her for Saera) & back up the likelihood of all of their children looking Valyrian (Aegon & Helaena married by Alicent part-wise to emphasise such, Aegon looking like his old man, Helaena's "less striking" appearance I'd put down to her weight - not helped by twins at 14! - instead of any non-Targ feature/s, Aemond's sapphire likely to be a similar colour to his other, text specifically says Daeron was such). But yes, Laena would still have been the preferable choice for her lineage & for political reasons.

 

Regardless from whom the Hightowers are ultimately descended their standing comes from the fact that they are the former Kings of Oldtown, the second richest family in the Realm, and one of the oldest noble houses of the entire Realm. Not to mention their influence with the Faith and the Citadel.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I disagree on Viserys - he certainly knew what Baelor was about (peace with Dorne) & with Prince Daeron having no sister at this time to marry (with a mother who had difficulty bearing children to say the least), its a good political match in terms of Baelor's policy. I think Viserys was even better as Hand & King then what Jaehaerys I himself was as a monarch.

 

Viserys certainly was a good Hand but we know Baelor made his peace on his own after his long march. Viserys wasn't at Sunspear and while Baelor might have informed his uncle via raven there is no reason to believe he asked for his advice or permission when he decided to betroth young Daeron to Mariah Martell. Viserys certainly would have known that Baelor wanted to make a peace but not necessarily the details. And we don't even know whether Baelor suggested the idea of such a marriage or whether the Prince of Dorne demanded such match.

4 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

As I said previously, I subscribe to a later timing of Aelinor & Aerys marrying, but that is a very intriguing thought ...

 

I really don't think so. We know that both Valarr and Daeron the Drunken are old enough so that we know their parents were already married before the Blackfyre Rebellion. That makes it rather likely that the betrothals were made early on in Daeron II's reign. After all, the legitimate branches of House Targaryen were cut down to Daeron II and his four sons. The man needed grandsons to secure his dynasty. And to get those he needed to find brides for those four sons. The idea that Maekar was allowed to marry before Aerys or Rhaegel doesn't make much sense. Especially considering that we don't even know any details on the age gap between the brothers. If Maekar is a couple of years younger than Aerys and Baelor it makes even less sense that his parents would look for a bride for him while Baelor and Aerys are still without a future wife.

4 hours ago, Jaak said:

The question here is how the Westerosi draw the line between a poor noble and a rich commoner.

Nobles have noble blood and titles. Commoners just money. The difference is pretty obvious.

4 hours ago, Jaak said:

Vast tracts, or small pieces? We do have an example where vast tracts of land were sold - Borrell reports that Starks took Manderly gold. How many Reach hands was the market price of the whole fief of White Harbour?

If the Manderlys still hold their lands as fiefs from the Starks they don't own that land. Fiefs are essentially loans. And it seems that all lords hold their lands as fiefs.