Speculation about the Targaryens on Dragonstone

[Paxter Redwyne]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Have you read the books? The Martell match to bring Dorne into the Realm was on the table since Viserys I. When Baelor arranged the match it was part of the peace treaty and only involving the grandson of his uncle who, at that time, was not likely to inherit the Iron Throne. Baelor was still married Daena at that time.

In same fashion Dondarrion match was made to unite dorne with dornish marches. 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It didn't work that way, though. There was a Blackfyre Rebellion, you know, and for all we know Daemon had a lot of support from the Marcher Lords.

For all we know, only Peakes supported Daemon. No other marcher houses were mentioned to be on his side. And during tourney at Ashford, Carons, Swanns and Dondarrions seemed to enjoy royal favor.

 

[Jaak]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobles have noble blood and titles. Commoners just money. The difference is pretty obvious.

Not everywhere in Europe. And in Westeros, we also have large groups whose status is ambiguous.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the Manderlys still hold their lands as fiefs from the Starks they don't own that land. Fiefs are essentially loans. And it seems that all lords hold their lands as fiefs.

Um, that´s a claim made by William the Bastard in England. Not accepted by a lot of Europe.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

In same fashion Dondarrion match was made to unite dorne with dornish marches. 

I guess you assume 'to unite the Iron Throne with the Dornish marches'? Because uniting the Marches with Dorne makes no sense if a Targaryen prince is betrothed or even married to a Dondarrion girl before the Dornish deal is even made.

If there was a pact made between Dorne and the Marcher Lords Daeron II would have arranged a marriage between a Dondarrion and a Martell.

4 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

For all we know, only Peakes supported Daemon. No other marcher houses were mentioned to be on his side. And during tourney at Ashford, Carons, Swanns and Dondarrions seemed to enjoy royal favor.

They did not enjoy royal favor. The king wasn't even there. They might have been looking for Baelor's favor and were thus showing up at the tourney. If there were no Marcher houses with Daemon then the First Blackfyre Rebellion must have been pretty much a joke considering that no great houses supported the man. But it wasn't. Some noble houses must have supported him wholeheartedly.

Baelor Breakspear lead some Stormlords on the Redgrass Field but those could easily enough have been only Dondarrion men plus people from Cape Wrath, the Rainwood, and other regions of the Stormlands closer to Storm's End itself. Thus the Stormland levies would have been split up between the rebels and loyalists.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Not everywhere in Europe. And in Westeros, we also have large groups whose status is ambiguous.

We don't. Noblemen (lords and landed knights) have certain privileges commoners cannot posses (like raising castles, dispensing justice - in the case of lords -, calling their banners, etc.). We don't even know if a rich commoner is allowed to accept tenants on his lands - as a lord or landed knight is. Being a lord means you have vast tracts of lands you don't work the land yourself. You force others to do the work for you.

Keep in mind that the commoners are a political non-factor in Westeros aside from the rabble rioting and the like. That makes only sense if the nobility very effectively prevents the commoners from becoming a powerful class in their own right. Which means most of them must be relatively poor in comparison to the lords, especially outside the cities and towns.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Um, that´s a claim made by William the Bastard in England. Not accepted by a lot of Europe.

It is the reality of the situation in Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror defeats the other kings, forces them to submit, and then makes them lords ruling in his name. We know the Crown can also unmake lords (it does this repeatedly throughout the series) so we can be reasonably sure that nobody in Westeros aside from the king actually owns any land. The people just hold it in the name of the king and only as long as the Crown allows them to hold it.

If the Starks had permanently sold land to the Manderlys the Manderlys weren't really subject to House Stark, or would they? The Manderlys got some fiefs and the right to be build a city, etc. in exchange for swearing an oath of loyalty to the Starks. This land grant is actually a loan based on certain conditions. When they are no longer met the land can be taken from you again. If it was just a deal involving money then the Starks would have no right to ever take the land from the Manderlys again.

[Grievous]

On 19.11.2016 at 5:32 PM, Lord Varys said:

If you go back to TRP you'll realize that choosing a spouse for the king or the Heir Apparent of the Iron Throne was always a delicate matter. Alicent Hightower was accepted thanks to her very noble and esteemed Hightower ancestry, but the favored choice for Viserys' second wife was Laena Velaryon, due to her impeccable Valyrian ancestry. The same goes for Rhaenyra's match - Laenor Velaryon won the day because of his Valyrian ancestry. The only other groom that was considered was the Prince of Dorne for political reasons. The idea that some girl from a minor family could marry the Crown Prince is very unlikely indeed.

While Laena certainly had impeccable breeding, which put her on the short list of candidates to marry a Targaryen king, the reason she was put forward as the preferred candidate by the Small Council was the fact that the marriage would be a step in healing the rift between the Targaryens and Velaryons, existing since the Great Council of 101 AC.

 

19 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

• Viserys married Alicent because he was weak & pressured by Otto & Runciter, especially as the Laena match was perhaps king's own suggestion.

The Laena match was in fact a suggestion by Runciter (and possibly by other members of the Small Council, though one assumes Otto Hightower might have had a differing opinion - but since it is said that the Small Council preferred Laena, I believe he might have pushed for this privately), while Viserys himself preferred Alicent.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Grievous said:

While Laena certainly had impeccable breeding, which put her on the short list of candidates to marry a Targaryen king, the reason she was put forward as the preferred candidate by the Small Council was the fact that the marriage would be a step in healing the rift between the Targaryens and Velaryons, existing since the Great Council of 101 AC.

The thing is that the Small Council actually held opinions on the matter of royal marriages and was forceful/determined enough to advise the king in this matter rather than allow the king and his family to decide such matter privately.

If they dared to do this in the dragon days one cannot really believe a king like Daeron II - who first had to assert his authority and deal with the consequences of his father's misrule (widespread corruption and the like) - could have won any sympathy in the Realm had he decided to marry his heir to the daughter of some minor lord (assuming Jena Dondarrion was even the daughter of a Lord Dondarrion). The same goes for the two Penrose matches. Rhaegel and Maekar are different because there are precedents for Targaryen-Arryn marriages, and the Daynes are also a very old and former royal line of First Men descendants (nobility-wise they could be on the same level as the Hightowers, although definitely not insofar as prestige and wealth are concerned).

I'm not saying Daeron II did not mainly make those matches for political reason to secure lasting alliances in the Stormlands but I think the main rationale he gave for those marriages to the public and his advisers is that the girls (and the man) involved were Targaryen relations and thus eligible to marry back into the royal family. Targaryen marriage policy and tradition demands that people marry close relatives, and Daeron II's sons had no sisters or first cousins to marry.

There was also a political reason behind the Laena proposal yet it is quite clear that there were no other proposals made. Targaryens only married close relations - nobody put forth a Lannister, Stark, or Tyrell girl in opposition to either Laena or Alicent.

The only other political matches the Targaryen kings were willing to enter into was to marry a Martell, and that only to complete the Conquest. Note that many men - the Lannister twins, the Tully sons, the Blackwood and Bracken men, Forrest Frey - propose to Princess Rhaenyra during her youth yet none of those names come up when the Princess' marriage is later discussed in earnest by Viserys I and the Small Council. It is Laenor Velaryon, the Prince of Dorne, or Prince Aegon (with only Alicent advocating for her son, it seems).

If Daeron II had arranged matches of the sort Aegon V tried to make later with Betha's help - marrying his children to scions of the great houses of the Realm (Baratheon, Tyrell, Tully, etc.) - then I could see him meeting little or no resistance. After all, the great lords are pretty powerful and if they support the king then other people would not dare to speak against that. But marrying royal princes to Dondarrions, Penroses, and Daynes is not likely to be uncontroversial with a majority of the lords.

You have to keep in mind that the entire establishment - the Small Council, the High Septon, and the lords later forced Prince Duncan to give up his claim to the Iron Throne when he refused to give up Jenny.

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The thing is that the Small Council actually held opinions on the matter of royal marriages and was forceful/determined enough to advise the king in this matter rather than allow the king and his family to decide such matter privately.

If they dared to do this in the dragon days one cannot really believe a king like Daeron II - who first had to assert his authority and deal with the consequences of his father's misrule (widespread corruption and the like) - could have won any sympathy in the Realm had he decided to marry his heir to the daughter of some minor lord (assuming Jena Dondarrion was even the daughter of a Lord Dondarrion). The same goes for the two Penrose matches. Rhaegel and Maekar are different because there are precedents for Targaryen-Arryn marriages, and the Daynes are also a very old and former royal line of First Men descendants (nobility-wise they could be on the same level as the Hightowers, although definitely not insofar as prestige and wealth are concerned).

I'm not saying Daeron II did not mainly make those matches for political reason to secure lasting alliances in the Stormlands but I think the main rationale he gave for those marriages to the public and his advisers is that the girls (and the man) involved were Targaryen relations and thus eligible to marry back into the royal family. Targaryen marriage policy and tradition demands that people marry close relatives, and Daeron II's sons had no sisters or first cousins to marry.

There was also a political reason behind the Laena proposal yet it is quite clear that there were no other proposals made. Targaryens only married close relations - nobody put forth a Lannister, Stark, or Tyrell girl in opposition to either Laena or Alicent.

The only other political matches the Targaryen kings were willing to enter into was to marry a Martell, and that only to complete the Conquest. Note that many men - the Lannister twins, the Tully sons, the Blackwood and Bracken men, Forrest Frey - propose to Princess Rhaenyra during her youth yet none of those names come up when the Princess' marriage is later discussed in earnest by Viserys I and the Small Council. It is Laenor Velaryon, the Prince of Dorne, or Prince Aegon (with only Alicent advocating for her son, it seems).

If Daeron II had arranged matches of the sort Aegon V tried to make later with Betha's help - marrying his children to scions of the great houses of the Realm (Baratheon, Tyrell, Tully, etc.) - then I could see him meeting little or no resistance. After all, the great lords are pretty powerful and if they support the king then other people would not dare to speak against that. But marrying royal princes to Dondarrions, Penroses, and Daynes is not likely to be uncontroversial with a majority of the lords.

You have to keep in mind that the entire establishment - the Small Council, the High Septon, and the lords later forced Prince Duncan to give up his claim to the Iron Throne when he refused to give up Jenny.

There is excellent article in warsandpoliticsoficeandfire about marriages made by Daeron II :

 https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2015/09/30/brides-of-war-ladies-of-the-blackfyre-rebellion/

And really if Daeron II cared only about Targaryen ancestry, he would marry Baelor to Hightower, Velaryon, Baratheon or Arryn. And at least house Arryn had appropiate bride: Alys Arryn who ended up marrying Rhaegel. Daeron II tried to merge Seven Kingdoms together and by marrying his half-dornish heir to woman from marcher house, he would symbolically unite Dorne with Dornish Marches.  He had to show that he treat equally dornishmen and lords from rest of Westeros. One of the reasons why Daemon had so much support is because people thought that Daeron II favors more dornishmen, people who were their enemies for centuries and not so long ago, treacherously murdered their king. 

 

Anyway, I think we should stop discussing about Jena Dondarrion and return to topic.

[Jaak]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't. Noblemen (lords and landed knights) have certain privileges commoners cannot posses (like raising castles, dispensing justice - in the case of lords -, calling their banners, etc.).

The only express legal privilege is the high justice of lords. We do not actually hear of any legal privileges of landed knights.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't even know if a rich commoner is allowed to accept tenants on his lands - as a lord or landed knight is.

It they cannot, there could not be rich commoners. How else would a man with three hides of land, a wife and a baby - as ser Bonifer promised to Mountain´s men - be able to cultivate these three hides? He himself could cultivate just one hide.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Being a lord means you have vast tracts of lands you don't work the land yourself. You force others to do the work for you.

It´s true that lord Baelish and ser Eustace don´t personally work their land, though the lands are not quite vast.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Keep in mind that the commoners are a political non-factor in Westeros aside from the rabble rioting and the like. That makes only sense if the nobility very effectively prevents the commoners from becoming a powerful class in their own right. Which means most of them must be relatively poor in comparison to the lords, especially outside the cities and towns.

Two possibilities. Either nobles prevent commoners from getting rich. Or else rich commoners are treated close enough to poor nobles, and easily enough become poor nobles, that they do not have distinctive political interests.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is the reality of the situation in Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror defeats the other kings, forces them to submit, and then makes them lords ruling in his name. We know the Crown can also unmake lords (it does this repeatedly throughout the series) so we can be reasonably sure that nobody in Westeros aside from the king actually owns any land. The people just hold it in the name of the king and only as long as the Crown allows them to hold it.

If the Starks had permanently sold land to the Manderlys the Manderlys weren't really subject to House Stark, or would they? The Manderlys got some fiefs and the right to be build a city, etc. in exchange for swearing an oath of loyalty to the Starks. This land grant is actually a loan based on certain conditions. When they are no longer met the land can be taken from you again. If it was just a deal involving money then the Starks would have no right to ever take the land from the Manderlys again.

Roman emperors routinely confiscated the lands of political opponents, without claiming to have owned them before.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

There is excellent article in warsandpoliticsoficeandfire about marriages made by Daeron II :

 https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2015/09/30/brides-of-war-ladies-of-the-blackfyre-rebellion/

I've read that, but it is, in parts, full of speculation that is not very founded. For instance, we do know that Aegon V started to dislike the incest custom but there is no reason to believe Daeron II was opposed to that at all.

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

And really if Daeron II cared only about Targaryen ancestry, he would marry Baelor to Hightower, Velaryon, Baratheon or Arryn.

There is no reason to believe that the Arryns retained any Targaryen blood. The Targaryens had Arryn blood, but Aemma Arryn is the only known child of Daella and Rodrik, and her only living child was Rhaenyra Targaryen. Again, we have no idea about any suitable Velaryon girls in the right age to marry one of Daeron II's son. The Baratheon Targaryen blood was a joke at that time, considering that the last 'Targaryen' marriage into House Baratheon was Alyssa Velaryon in the 1st century. And whether the Hightowers retained any Targaryen blood from the Garmund-Rhaena match is still unclear.

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

And at least house Arryn had appropiate bride: Alys Arryn who ended up marrying Rhaegel. Daeron II tried to merge Seven Kingdoms together and by marrying his half-dornish heir to woman from marcher house, he would symbolically unite Dorne with Dornish Marches.  

Not really, because the Dondarrions are just one house. They are not the Swanns, the Carons, the Tarlys, the Peakes, or any other house living there. It would make sense if the Dondarrions ruled the Dornish Marches, but they never did.

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

He had to show that he treat equally dornishmen and lords from rest of Westeros. One of the reasons why Daemon had so much support is because people thought that Daeron II favors more dornishmen, people who were their enemies for centuries and not so long ago, treacherously murdered their king. 

That still makes no sense. Throwing your heir into the dirt would cause more trouble that it was worth politically. The idea that the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne could marry some minor lord's daughter simply makes no sense. If the Blackwoods are not worthy enough to marry a Targaryen prince close to the Iron Throne then a Dondarrion match should be anathema to the Prince of Dragonstone.

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Anyway, I think we should stop discussing about Jena Dondarrion and return to topic.

Take you time. I started this thread. And I don't mind if it takes some unexpected detours.

14 minutes ago, Jaak said:

The only express legal privilege is the high justice of lords. We do not actually hear of any legal privileges of landed knights.

Well, we know they can call their banners and field quite a few men. Just look at the Templetons or the Conningtons.

14 minutes ago, Jaak said:

It they cannot, there could not be rich commoners. How else would a man with three hides of land, a wife and a baby - as ser Bonifer promised to Mountain´s men - be able to cultivate these three hides? He himself could cultivate just one hide.

Rich commoners would also be rich peasants sitting on a fertile piece of land which they cultivate with the help of a lot of farmhands and servants. They don't have to hand out those lands as loans to exploit other people.

But then, rich commoners mostly would be craftsmen and merchants in cities and towns. They don't have to own land to control vast sums of money. Not to mention commoners owning and maintaining ships.

14 minutes ago, Jaak said:

It´s true that lord Baelish and ser Eustace don´t personally work their land, though the lands are not quite vast.

Two possibilities. Either nobles prevent commoners from getting rich. Or else rich commoners are treated close enough to poor nobles, and easily enough become poor nobles, that they do not have distinctive political interests.

We know there are rich commoners in the cities and towns. What they lack is a voice in the government of the Realm.

14 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Roman emperors routinely confiscated the lands of political opponents, without claiming to have owned them before.

That has nothing to do with feudal Westeros. The Roman Empire was neither was no feudal monarchy.

[Paxter Redwyne]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I've read that, but it is, in parts, full of speculation that is not very founded. For instance, we do know that Aegon V started to dislike the incest custom but there is no reason to believe Daeron II was opposed to that at all.

Everything we talk is full of speculations. We do not have any proof for Jena having Targaryen blood and vice versa, we do not have any proof that she wasn't part-Targaryen.

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no reason to believe that the Arryns retained any Targaryen blood. The Targaryens had Arryn blood, but Aemma Arryn is the only known child of Daella and Rodrik, and her only living child was Rhaenyra Targaryen. Again, we have no idea about any suitable Velaryon girls in the right age to marry one of Daeron II's son. The Baratheon Targaryen blood was a joke at that time, considering that the last 'Targaryen' marriage into House Baratheon was Alyssa Velaryon in the 1st century. And whether the Hightowers retained any Targaryen blood from the Garmund-Rhaena match is still unclear.

Still Arryns and Hightowers were more prestigous than Dondarrions, even with Targaryen blood. Marrying royal heir to daughter of minor lord over daughter of lord paramount just because she have some drop of targaryen blood is ridiculous. Through six daughters of Garmund and Rhaena there were probably better matches for Baelor Breakspear. Maybe some Redwyne or Florent.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not really, because the Dondarrions are just one house. They are not the Swanns, the Carons, the Tarlys, the Peakes, or any other house living there. It would make sense if the Dondarrions ruled the Dornish Marches, but they never did.

As no marcher house holds supremacy in region we can only wonder by what Daeron II guided by choosing Jena Dondarrion. Perhaps Daeron II decided that Dondarrions are most worthy of marcher houses because they had some Targaryen blood, but it would be one of reasons, not main reason.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That still makes no sense. Throwing your heir into the dirt would cause more trouble that it was worth politically. The idea that the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne could marry some minor lord's daughter simply makes no sense. If the Blackwoods are not worthy enough to marry a Targaryen prince close to the Iron Throne then a Dondarrion match should be anathema to the Prince of Dragonstone.

Then Jena even with Targaryen blood would be considered dirt. 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Everything we talk is full of speculations. We do not have any proof for Jena having Targaryen blood and vice versa, we do not have any proof that she wasn't part-Targaryen.

Yeah, but not considering that possibility is stupid. Especially in light of the Penrose matches where a Targaryen ancestry is effectively confirmed.

17 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Still Arryns and Hightowers were more prestigous than Dondarrions, even with Targaryen blood. Marrying royal heir to daughter of minor lord over daughter of lord paramount just because she have some drop of targaryen blood is ridiculous.

It is not if we keep in mind that the Valyrian tradition going back to the Freehold dictated cousin marriages when there were no sisters or aunts around. Now, if that was the established practice, also leading to the rise of House Velaryon in the 1st and 2nd century, then it makes sense to assume that Dondarrions and Penroses with Targaryen blood were as suitable matches for royal princes as if they actually bore the name Targaryen. The only difference is that they are descended through the female line instead of the male.

17 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Through six daughters of Garmund and Rhaena there were probably better matches for Baelor Breakspear. Maybe some Redwyne or Florent.

We have no idea how many of those five daughters lived long enough to have children of their own, nor have we any idea who they married. And I never said that Daeron II might not have picked such Targaryen cousins as were convenient for his own political agenda. He might very well have decided to discard a Velaryon or Hightower match in favor of a Penrose or Dondarrion cousin because of his Dornish agenda.

What I don't believe is that Daeron II could just decide on a whim to marry his heir to a nobody. Not without causing a major scandal which should have had a greater negative effect on his reign than the whole Dornish peace thing had.

17 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Then Jena even with Targaryen blood would be considered dirt. 

No, because having Targaryen blood makes you a member of the extended royal family.

[Paxter Redwyne]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, but not considering that possibility is stupid. Especially in light of the Penrose matches where a Targaryen ancestry is effectively confirmed.

Considering something does not automatically make it clever. Anything could happen.

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not if we keep in mind that the Valyrian tradition going back to the Freehold dictated cousin marriages when there were no sisters or aunts around. Now, if that was the established practice, also leading to the rise of House Velaryon in the 1st and 2nd century, then it makes sense to assume that Dondarrions and Penroses with Targaryen blood were as suitable matches for royal princes as if they actually bore the name Targaryen. The only difference is that they are descended through the female line instead of the male.

We have no reason to assume that Daeron II was obsessed with blood purity. His own son already didn't looked as targaryen. And Targaryens before effectively married with Hightowers, Baratheons and Arryns who do not have any Targaryen blood as far we know(at least during Daeron II era). And after death of last dragons Targaryens stopped marrying Velaryons what could suggest that they started to cared less about blood purity (except Jaehaerys II love marriage and Aerys II dictated marriage).

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no idea how many of those five daughters lived long enough to have children of their own, nor have we any idea who they married. And I never said that Daeron II might not have picked such Targaryen cousins as were convenient for his own political agenda. He might very well have decided to discard a Velaryon or Hightower match in favor of a Penrose or Dondarrion cousin because of his Dornish agenda.

What I don't believe is that Daeron II could just decide on a whim to marry his heir to a nobody. Not without causing a major scandal which should have had a greater negative effect on his reign than the whole Dornish peace thing had.

Whatever reason, Jena certainly wasn't nobody if Daeron II married her to his heir. Reasons could be variable.

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, because having Targaryen blood makes you a member of the extended royal family.

But do we know who is considered to be part of extended royal family? Given age Jena Dondarrion could be either granddaughter or great-granddaughter of garmund and rhaena. Therefore she would be either third-cousin or fourth-cousin once removed through female line of Baelor Breakspear. Was Robert Baratheon then part of extended royal family? Or Selwyn Tarth whose grandmother was either Daella or Rhae?

[Lord Varys]

56 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Considering something does not automatically make it clever. Anything could happen.

Well, no. Not everything can happen. A royal prince cannot just marry anybody, especially not a Prince of Dragonstone. Not if he wants to become king.

56 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

We have no reason to assume that Daeron II was obsessed with blood purity. His own son already didn't looked as targaryen.

What has the look of Baelor Breakspear to do with Targaryen marriage policy? In fact, his non-Targaryen look were a problem for himself and the king because he did not look royal. Baelor was as good a knight as Daemon Blackfyre, perhaps even better, yet he was never seen as the Conqueror Reborn or the Warrior in the flesh - because he had no Valyrian looks while Daemon looked like a proper Targaryen.

Daeron II himself was incest-born and had thus little reason to consider this problematic or vile. And we know that the practice continued under Daeron II and Aerys I - Egg was betrothed to his sister Daella, and Aerion married his cousin Daenora.

56 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

And Targaryens before effectively married with Hightowers, Baratheons and Arryns who do not have any Targaryen blood as far we know(at least during Daeron II era).

Hightowers, Baratheons, and Arryns are quite different from Dondarrions and Penroses.

56 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

And after death of last dragons Targaryens stopped marrying Velaryons what could suggest that they started to cared less about blood purity (except Jaehaerys II love marriage and Aerys II dictated marriage).

There is nothing to back this up. Baelor married Daena after the death of the last dragon. Earlier on we have Aegon marrying Naerys.

56 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Whatever reason, Jena certainly wasn't nobody if Daeron II married her to his heir. Reasons could be variable.

Her name remains the same. She is a Dondarrion, a family of minor importance in the grand scale of things. And keep in mind that anyone who is descended both from the Targaryens and the Hightowers can boast a rather prestigious heritage, never mind his family. A Penrose or Dondarrion with this kind of ancestry would look much more impressive than Harrold Hardyng who right now - never mind his insignificant paternal ancestry - is the recognized and popular Heir Presumptive of the Vale of Arryn.

56 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

But do we know who is considered to be part of extended royal family? Given age Jena Dondarrion could be either granddaughter or great-granddaughter of garmund and rhaena. Therefore she would be either third-cousin or fourth-cousin once removed through female line of Baelor Breakspear.

You raise a valid point here but I've already said that I think Ronnel Penrose and Jena's father were raised at court in a similar fashion as Steffon Baratheon was later on. Keep in mind that House Targaryen nearly died out after the Dance. Before Prince Viserys returned Aegon III's only remaining heirs were his half-sisters and their children, making Rhaena's daughters rather important figures. Considering that Prince Viserys had only three children and Aegon III only children later in life. It would make sense to keep close ties to the Targaryen-Hightower family branch under such circumstances.

56 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Was Robert Baratheon then part of extended royal family? Or Selwyn Tarth whose grandmother was either Daella or Rhae?

Robert and Steffon were extended members of the royal family, yes. Steffon was raised at court, and his father was the Hand of Jaehaerys II. Selwyn Tarth might have been considered an extended member of the royal family in his youth during the reign of Aegon V. We will have to wait and see.

A daughter of Steffon or an elder daughter of Selwyn (with better looks than Brienne) could easily enough have been married to Rhaegar. Aerys II desperately searched for a proper Valyrian bride for his heir and settled on the distant Martell cousin Elia in the end. If there had been Velaryon, Baratheon, Tarth girls around he would likely have settled on one of those just as Daeron II chose the women he chose for his sons.

[Paxter Redwyne]

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What has the look of Baelor Breakspear to do with Targaryen marriage policy? In fact, his non-Targaryen look were a problem for himself and the king because he did not look royal. Baelor was as good a knight as Daemon Blackfyre, perhaps even better, yet he was never seen as the Conqueror Reborn or the Warrior in the flesh - because he had no Valyrian looks while Daemon looked like a proper Targaryen.

Dondarrions have no valyrian features either. If this would trouble Daeron II he would marry Baelor to Velaryon, Hightower, Dayne or some Lyseni.

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is nothing to back this up. Baelor married Daena after the death of the last dragon. Earlier on we have Aegon marrying Naerys.

Aegon and Naerys married in same year as last dragon died. Anyways, they stopped marrying Velaryons what is weird.

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Her name remains the same. She is a Dondarrion, a family of minor importance in the grand scale of things. And keep in mind that anyone who is descended both from the Targaryens and the Hightowers can boast a rather prestigious heritage, never mind his family. A Penrose or Dondarrion with this kind of ancestry would look much more impressive than Harrold Hardyng who right now - never mind his insignificant paternal ancestry - is the recognized and popular Heir Presumptive of the Vale of Arryn.

Besides being heir to Vale, Harrold Hardyng is nobody. If he wasn't next in line to Eyrie he would probably end as petty household knight.

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You raise a valid point here but I've already said that I think Ronnel Penrose and Jena's father were raised at court in a similar fashion as Steffon Baratheon was later on. Keep in mind that House Targaryen nearly died out after the Dance. Before Prince Viserys returned Aegon III's only remaining heirs were his half-sisters and their children, making Rhaena's daughters rather important figures. Considering that Prince Viserys had only three children and Aegon III only children later in life. It would make sense to keep close ties to the Targaryen-Hightower family branch under such circumstances.

Still they were very distant cousins and when Aegon IV ascended to throne, succesion was already secured by Daeron II's young sons. In fact, about fifty years have passed between marriage of Rhaena to Garmund and Daeron II's ascend to the throne. This is huge time gap. I don't think that Rhaena's descendants would live for so long in King's Landing. Maybe Garmund itself resided in King's Landing (if he wasn't ruling lord of Oltown), but his children and grandchildren sooner or later probably left court. 

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A daughter of Steffon or an elder daughter of Selwyn (with better looks than Brienne) could easily enough have been married to Rhaegar. Aerys II desperately searched for a proper Valyrian bride for his heir and settled on the distant Martell cousin Elia in the end. If there had been Velaryon, Baratheon, Tarth girls around he would likely have settled on one of those just as Daeron II chose the women he chose for his sons.

Aerys was realy obsessed with finding wife for his son. It is suspicious however why he did not married Rhaegar to Hightower? They are noble enough and around that time there was i think three women which he could marry: Malora, Alerie and Leyla.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Dondarrions have no valyrian features either. If this would trouble Daeron II he would marry Baelor to Velaryon, Hightower, Dayne or some Lyseni.

They don't? How many Dondarrions do you know? If Jena is a descendant of Rhaena and Garmund she could have had Valyrian features, just Aelinor and Ronnel Penrose could have had. Even Beric still has red-blond hair a hundred years later.

And the fact that Prince Valarr actually had Valyrian features while his father had none could be a hint that his mother also had Targaryen ancestors. 

8 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Aegon and Naerys married in same year as last dragon died. Anyways, they stopped marrying Velaryons what is weird.

Only if you insist that they had to do this. Could have been they felt they did not want to marry any children of Alyn the Bastard, or it could simply have been the fact that they scarcely needed to search for brides for the sons outside the family. After Daeron II's reign they had plenty of siblings and cousins around to marry. Only Aegon V consciously broke with the family tradition to forge political alliances.

But again, I already said above that there is a pretty good chance that Daeron I was betrothed to a daughter of Baela and Alyn. Nothing would have come of that because Daeron I died too young.

8 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Besides being heir to Vale, Harrold Hardyng is nobody. If he wasn't next in line to Eyrie he would probably end as petty household knight.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that he included the Arryn banner into his personal sigil. Ronnel Penrose and Jena's father could also have had the Targaryen dragon incorporated in their own personal arms. That would have given them a different status than the average Penrose or Dondarrion guy.

8 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Still they were very distant cousins and when Aegon IV ascended to throne, succesion was already secured by Daeron II's young sons. In fact, about fifty years have passed between marriage of Rhaena to Garmund and Daeron II's ascend to the throne. This is huge time gap. I don't think that Rhaena's descendants would live for so long in King's Landing. Maybe Garmund itself resided in King's Landing (if he wasn't ruling lord of Oltown), but his children and grandchildren sooner or later probably left court. 

It depends how long Rhaena and Garmund themselves lived. Rhaena could still be around during the reign of Daeron II, no? Besides, Lord Jon Hightower (possibly a descendant of Garmund and Rhaena) was the last known Hand of Aegon IV. The fact that Targaryen-Hightowers were still around would have been known in such a case.

But the idea isn't that the five daughters lived in KL, but that their sons were taken in as royal wards there, to grow up with young Daeron II (just as young Steffon later did). After all, Daeron had no siblings for a long time and Prince Viserys and Aegon III might actually have intended to take care of the grandchildren of their sister Rhaena.

8 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Aerys was realy obsessed with finding wife for his son. It is suspicious however why he did not married Rhaegar to Hightower? They are noble enough and around that time there was i think three women which he could marry: Malora, Alerie and Leyla.

If the Hightowers have Targaryen blood from Rhaena this goes a long time back in the days of Aerys II. He apparently wanted somebody with closer kinship to the Targaryens or a purer Valyrian heritage. Alerie seems to have been married to Mace at the time Aerys began searching for a bride for Rhaegar (Willas is in his twenties in the series), Malora might actually be mad, giving us a pretty good reason why she never married anyone. Leyla and Lynesse might both be too young to ever be considered as brides for Rhaegar.

[Paxter Redwyne]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It depends how long Rhaena and Garmund themselves lived. Rhaena could still be around during the reign of Daeron II, no? Besides, Lord Jon Hightower (possibly a descendant of Garmund and Rhaena) was the last known Hand of Aegon IV. The fact that Targaryen-Hightowers were still around would have been known in such a case.

Rhaena was born in 116 AC and Daeron II ascended to throne in 184 AC. So there is a chance, but not very big. 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the idea isn't that the five daughters lived in KL, but that their sons were taken in as royal wards there, to grow up with young Daeron II (just as young Steffon later did). After all, Daeron had no siblings for a long time and Prince Viserys and Aegon III might actually have intended to take care of the grandchildren of their sister Rhaena.

We have to wait for more information to confirm that. Of course it is a possibilty.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the Hightowers have Targaryen blood from Rhaena this goes a long time back in the days of Aerys II. He apparently wanted somebody with closer kinship to the Targaryens or a purer Valyrian heritage. Alerie seems to have been married to Mace at the time Aerys began searching for a bride for Rhaegar (Willas is in his twenties in the series), Malora might actually be mad, giving us a pretty good reason why she never married anyone. Leyla and Lynesse might both be too young to ever be considered as brides for Rhaegar.

Alerie probably was already married, but i think that Leyla had right age. Denyse, Alysanne and Lynesse are all younger than her, i think.

[Jaak]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, we know they can call their banners and field quite a few men. Just look at the Templetons or the Conningtons.

And? Is that a privilege connected to knighthood?

[Shuvuuia]

On 20.11.2016 at 5:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

We know nothing about Maekar's reign. Nothing at all. Everything we read about that in TWoIaF we already knew, not to mention that half of that page covered the Great Council after Maekar's reign. Maekar could have taken six wives during his reign and we had no idea about that.

The last sentence cracked me up, i just imagine grumpy Maekar with six wives simultaneously, really trying to up his brothers at least in the marriage department.

Spoiler

And then Aelinor would be "sorry, but Aerys was better"

But seriously, if Maekar re-married, why wouldn't it be in the family tree? I don't think it would be such a big spoiler for future D&E

On 20.11.2016 at 5:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

Actually, I like the idea that Baelor learned from Manfred about Dunk and cared so much about him because he was aware that his brother-in-law was a jerk. Dunk certainly doesn't give the impression that he knows that Manfred's sister is married to the Prince of Dragonstone. He doesn't even know how many sons Daeron II has, what their names are, or how many sons they have.

 

He doesn't? As far as i remember, after he realizes that Baelor is the prince of the Dragonstone, he immediately concludes that the second prince is Maekar, since Aerys and Rhaegel are not likely to attend a tourney. So he knows them. Dunk maybe doesn't know Maekar's brood, but i think the princess of the Dragonstone should be more famous (plus he and ser Arlan served her father/uncle/cousin several years before)

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They don't? How many Dondarrions do you know? If Jena is a descendant of Rhaena and Garmund she could have had Valyrian features, just Aelinor and Ronnel Penrose could have had. Even Beric still has red-blond hair a hundred years later.

And the fact that Prince Valarr actually had Valyrian features while his father had none could be a hint that his mother also had Targaryen ancestors. 

 

i thought Beric is red-gold, which, i think, is more red than blond, like Manfred in the graphic novel. I wonder with grrm's genetics, if Baelor's marriage already decided when THK was written, then if Valarr would've had red-brown or red with white streaks hair, lol. 

 

Would anyone be interested in a general D&E-time politics and family relations thread?

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Jaak said:

And? Is that a privilege connected to knighthood?

Obviously a privilege connected to their status as landed knights, or else they would not be allowed to do that, right? They aren't lords, after all.

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

We have to wait for more information to confirm that. Of course it is a possibilty.

Actually, a pretty likely possibility, even Cersei wants to surround Tommen with boys he could befriend and grow up with like Robert and Ned grew up together.

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Alerie probably was already married, but i think that Leyla had right age. Denyse, Alysanne and Lynesse are all younger than her, i think.

That really depends on the whole Hightower marriage situation. Lord Leyton remarry constantly. Depending when exactly he chose to remarry and depending when exactly his sons and daughters were born (which we don't really know) it is easily enough possible that no Hightower girl had the right age for Rhaegar. Not to mention that it might be less prestigious to marry the younger daughter of some lord. Just look what kind of nobody Leyla Hightower married, or with whom one of Mace's sisters or some of uncles ended up with.

3 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

The last sentence cracked me up, i just imagine grumpy Maekar with six wives simultaneously, really trying to up his brothers at least in the marriage department.

  Hide contents

And then Aelinor would be "sorry, but Aerys was better"

But seriously, if Maekar re-married, why wouldn't it be in the family tree? I don't think it would be such a big spoiler for future D&E.

Well, my point there was to illustrate that we know literally nothing about Maekar's reign. If he married some widow beyond her childbearing years (like Aelinor Penrose or Alys Arryn) then this would have had no effect on the Targaryen family tree. Kiera of Tyrosh was included as Valarr's and Daeron's wife most likely only because she became the mother of Princess Vaella.

And unless Daella and Rhae only had bastards, unless Aerea and Rhall never married (but then, who the hell were those nine lesser claimants at the Great Council?), Duncan and Jenny had no children of their own there are gaping holes in the Targaryen family tree in any case.

Even Prince Maegor and Princess Vaella could have married to have children of their own.

3 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

He doesn't? As far as i remember, after he realizes that Baelor is the prince of the Dragonstone, he immediately concludes that the second prince is Maekar, since Aerys and Rhaegel are not likely to attend a tourney. So he knows them. Dunk maybe doesn't know Maekar's brood, but i think the princess of the Dragonstone should be more famous (plus he and ser Arlan served her father/uncle/cousin several years before)

Right, he knows who Baelor is, and he knows about the other sons of Daeron II, but that's it. He has no idea about their children.

3 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

i thought Beric is red-gold, which, i think, is more red than blond, like Manfred in the graphic novel. I wonder with grrm's genetics, if Baelor's marriage already decided when THK was written, then if Valarr would've had red-brown or red with white streaks hair, lol. 

It was definitely not decided back then. Even Bloodraven and the Blackfyres were not yet a thing when THK was written. But considering the fact that Ser Manfred is still only his father's heir in 209 AC it is pretty likely he was of Jena's generation (and thus his sister) because it is exceedingly unlikely that the Prince of Dragonstone did not marry the daughter of Lord Dondarrion. I guess Manfred could also be her nephew under certain conditions (say, if her brother, the previous Lord Dondarrion, died in the Blackfyre Rebellion, but that would be stretching things quite a bit).

3 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

Would anyone be interested in a general D&E-time politics and family relations thread?

Sure.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 20-11-2016 at 3:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

One assumes that all the five dragons of Aenar already had riders by the time they moved to Dragonstone.

My question remains. If there were five dragons, assuming that Aenar, Daenys and Gaemon had each claimed one, who is most likely to have claimed the other two? Did Aenar have other children? Or were the dragons claimed by Aenar's siblings? Daenys does not seem to have had children of her own when the Targaryens left Valyria. Or did two dragons remain riderless at that time, to be claimed by other descendents of Aenar once they were old enough..?

Which one would be more likely?

 

On 20-11-2016 at 3:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

I'm inclined to believe that Laena might have inherited Vhagar from her grandfather, Prince Aemon. If Aemon had ridden Vhagar prior to Laena then it is possible that Jaehaerys I wasn't able to secure the dragon (or rather: was unable to prevent that the Velaryons eventually allow Laena to claim her). There were facilities to house dragons permanently on Driftmark, after all, and Laena could have remained there until Laena claimed her.

Certainly possible. But Aemon died before Laena was even born, so if Vhagar had been his dragon, why would the dragon have been at Driftmark? Aemon's seat would have been Dragonstone, and I'd assume that he would have divided his time between King's Landing and Dragonstone, not Driftmark.

Additionally, if Aemon was a dragonrider when he died, wouldn't it be likely that he died whilst riding a dragon? Which would mean that Vhagar was at the Stepstones when Aemon died.

Perhaps this is a case similar to Quicksilver, and how Prince Aegon suddenly had him by his side. But out of all the locations Vhagar was most likely to be, I can't say that Driftmark is the most likely one, which raises the question "why would Jaehaerys I not have been able to secure the dragon?" Was it simply because there was no one else to claim him?

 

On 20-11-2016 at 3:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

Ran's recent information revealed that Aegon II was in need of Corlys' support after his restoration. They made a deal, and Corlys forced Aegon II to spare Aegon the Younger's life, betroth him to his daughter, and name him his heir (much to Alicent's chagrin) in exchange for the support of the Velaryon fleet.

Would you happen to have a link to that post, so I can bookmark it?  Because this is the first I hear about Aegon II having been the one to name Aegon III his heir, or arranging the betrothal. (when did the marriage occur, do you happen to know that?)

 

On 20-11-2016 at 3:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

But my point more is that Vaemond's children and brothers could easily enough have tried to prevent the rise of the bastard Alyn to the lordship of Driftmark - just as they once tried to prevent Rhaenyra's sons from taking it.

I would imagine that they would have little success to look forward to. Addam had been extremely loyal to Rhaenyra, and Vaemond's siblings and sons should have expected Aegon III to remember that. And both Addam and Alyn had been acknowledged by Corlys himself, who had named Addam his heir (and considering Alyn was Addam's heir, it is likely this placed Alyn in the line of succession as well).

 

On 20-11-2016 at 3:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

In that light the Baelor-Daena match makes sense - if Daeron I wasn't betrothed things get odd.

Keeping in mind that we don't know whent he betrothal was made, it might have been Aegon III who betrothed Daena to Baelor.

If it had been Daeron I, it could be possible that he arranged the Baelor-Daena match because he was about to leave for war. Baelor was his heir, after all, so the marriage could have been a way to strengthen Baelor's position in case Daeron would not return. Depending on what Baelor was like before his visit to Dorne, it might have been clear early on that, given the choice, Baelor would not be willing to marry. By having his siblings marry, Daeron would have ensured that House Targaryen would definitly continue, whilst keeping other houses from interfering. Daeron seems to have been rather busy with arranging betrothals for his siblings, as not only did Baelor and Daena marry during his reign, but he was also trying to arrange a betrothal between the Sealord of Braavos, and one of his other two sisters (and I would assume that was Rhaena).

On 20-11-2016 at 3:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

Now, Ronnel Penrose would already have been dead by the time of the First Blackfyre Rebellion, making his son from his first wife the new Lord of Parchments whose sons were then killed by Fireball during the war.

Wouldn't the usage of "Lady Penrose" in that setting imply that Parchements was being ruled by a female Penrose, who have several sons as her heirs? Because that's how I would read it.

If one of the sons who died had been the Lord of Parchements, I would expect the event to have been described as "... when [Fireball]  killed Lord Penrose and his siblings, except for the youngest, as a kindness to his mother".

[lojzelote]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, no. Not everything can happen. A royal prince cannot just marry anybody, especially not a Prince of Dragonstone. Not if he wants to become king.

What has the look of Baelor Breakspear to do with Targaryen marriage policy? In fact, his non-Targaryen look were a problem for himself and the king because he did not look royal. Baelor was as good a knight as Daemon Blackfyre, perhaps even better, yet he was never seen as the Conqueror Reborn or the Warrior in the flesh - because he had no Valyrian looks while Daemon looked like a proper Targaryen.

Daeron II himself was incest-born and had thus little reason to consider this problematic or vile. And we know that the practice continued under Daeron II and Aerys I - Egg was betrothed to his sister Daella, and Aerion married his cousin Daenora.

Hightowers, Baratheons, and Arryns are quite different from Dondarrions and Penroses.

There's also the Aelor/Aelora twincest.

 

A mostly unrelated topic (but since this thread has been mostly hijacked by Targaryen marriage policy speculation, I suppose it doesn't matter);

What do you guys make of the Daemon-Rhea Royce match?

It seems that Rhea was unrelated (which may have been in part why Daemon was so dissatisfied with her as a bride), and she was also the ruling Lady Royce. I find it mildly curious. On one hand it makes sense, because this way Daemon would get a keep and lands of his own by proxy, but I still wonder, because at the time there haven't been many male Targaryens left (I'm no good at timeline, but only Viserys and Daemon were left at one point), and had they any chidren, they would probably get into conflict if these children will be Royces or Targaryens.

Also, I wonder if Daemon was marched with a Vale noblewoman, because Aemma Arryn also came form the Vale? Maybe a check on wild, ambitious Daemon in case he schemed against Viserys in future? Or the Arryns helped to arrange it? Or was it just a coincidence?