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Speculation about the Targaryens on Dragonstone


Lord Varys

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12 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

What do you guys make of the Daemon-Rhea Royce match?

The Rogue Prince tells us that Daemon was married to Rhea Royce when he was 16, at year 97AC. At this point his father Balon was heir and the Prince of Dragonstone, so Daemon's marriage had to be a big thing. At the same time, though, Balon was very young and Viserys had just married and fathered Rhaenyra, so Daemon inheriting the crown may have seemed a very unlikely preposition. With this in mind a marriage that nearly made Daemon the second more powerful lord in the Vale could make some sense.

I think that Aemma Arryn having influenced the match is a strong possibility. She and Rhea could have been childhood friends, and Daemon marries her only four years after Aemma married Viserys.

 

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

My question remains. If there were five dragons, assuming that Aenar, Daenys and Gaemon had each claimed one, who is most likely to have claimed the other two? Did Aenar have other children? Or were the dragons claimed by Aenar's siblings? Daenys does not seem to have had children of her own when the Targaryens left Valyria. Or did two dragons remain riderless at that time, to be claimed by other descendents of Aenar once they were old enough..?

Which one would be more likely?

I'd go with Aenar, his sister-wives, and some of his other siblings being dragonriders. Whether his children already had dragons or later claimed dragons we cannot really know. My personal preference is that Daenys the Dreamer was the first rider of Balerion - which would she would have claimed him back in Valyria - but Gaemon could easily enough only have claimed one of the other dragons after, say, one of his uncles or aunts died, or he could have bonded with a recently hatched dragon on Dragonstone.

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Certainly possible. But Aemon died before Laena was even born, so if Vhagar had been his dragon, why would the dragon have been at Driftmark? Aemon's seat would have been Dragonstone, and I'd assume that he would have divided his time between King's Landing and Dragonstone, not Driftmark.

It seems Dragonstone was a vital Targaryen seat during the early days (or rather throughout the Targaryen reign, basically). Thus it is not unlikely that Aemon had a permanent seat on Driftmark. We don't know how qualified the man was to rule - Baelon is called 'the Brave' but Aemon didn't get some special name.

If Vhagar was on Dragonstone when Aemon died Princess Rhaenys could have taken her to Driftmark after she left to permanently live with Corlys. Or she could have flown to Dragonstone to get Vhagar. We know this works when the dragons get along with other dragonriders/dragons (e.g. Daemon taking both Caraxes and Vhagar across the Narrow Sea).

Hell, Rhaenys (and Corlys) could even have been with Aemon when he died. After all, there are some hints that Rhaenys was an experienced dragonrider and no stranger to battle.

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Additionally, if Aemon was a dragonrider when he died, wouldn't it be likely that he died whilst riding a dragon? Which would mean that Vhagar was at the Stepstones when Aemon died.

Prince Aemon died on Tarth, not the Stepstones. If he did not ride Vhagar then there is a chance that his dragon died with him. But he could also have died in some conventional battle or perhaps due to some assassination (say, during a negotiation, or something of that sort).

What we can reasonably exclude is the possibility that Rhaenys inherited Meleys from her father because she is confirmed to have been a dragonrider longer than anybody else by the time of the Dance, and at least Prince Daemon would already have had his Caraxes back in 92 AC.

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Perhaps this is a case similar to Quicksilver, and how Prince Aegon suddenly had him by his side. But out of all the locations Vhagar was most likely to be, I can't say that Driftmark is the most likely one, which raises the question "why would Jaehaerys I not have been able to secure the dragon?" Was it simply because there was no one else to claim him?

There would have been princesses who could have tried. Maegelle was still alive, although a septa. Gael lived another eight years. Viserra might have still been alive. Even Archmaester Vaegon might have still been around.

The Aegon-Quicksilver mystery should have a pretty mundane explanation. Either Aegon secretly traveled to Dragonstone to mount his father's dragon or somebody brought Quicksilver to Casterly Rock. All that would be needed to do this would be another dragonrider. Rhaena, Alyssa, or Viserys could all have pulled this off. We have no idea when exactly Alyssa and the younger children became prisoners nor when exactly Viserys became Maegor's squire.

Not to mention that there was a genuine power vacuum when Maegor fell into a coma for a month. Whatever Targaryen loyalists remained might have decided to prepare for the rise of Prince Aegon now, even Visenya might have been in support of that while Maegor had not yet wakened.

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Would you happen to have a link to that post, so I can bookmark it? :) Because this is the first I hear about Aegon II having been the one to name Aegon III his heir, or arranging the betrothal. (when did the marriage occur, do you happen to know that?)

You know how bad I am with keeping track of this kind of thing. I remember that LionoftheWest was also part of that discussion. Perhaps he remembers the whole thing?

Ran suddenly decided to intervene when we were discussing Corlys' fate after Rhaenyra imprisoned him and who freed him from the dungeon (Aegon II or Trystane Truefyre?). He felt they had cut too much from the story there, explaining that Aegon II needed Corlys' fleet for his war and thus was forced to pardon him and take him into his council. Yet Corlys only did that under the condition that Aegon the Younger's life be spared and he be betrothed to Jaehaera who were then were named co-heirs of Aegon II (much against Alicent's will).

What little information we have on the wedding of Aegon III suggests that happened immediately after his proclamation as king, presumably as part or Corlys' peace agenda. By formally uniting the two branches any reason to continue the war was basically over.

We can reasonably assume that this was only temporal solution for Aegon II and Alicent (who would have speculated to overturn this decision as soon as the war was over and the old man dead) considering that Aegon II intended to marry a Baratheon girl who might have given him sons.

Vice versa, I'm also inclined to believe that Corlys never truly was in the Green camp - after all, both his wife and son had died fighting for Rhaenyra. He wanted to restore peace to the Realm and one Aegon II became the major obstacle to peace he finally had enough people at court on his side to assassinate him.

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I would imagine that they would have little success to look forward to. Addam had been extremely loyal to Rhaenyra, and Vaemond's siblings and sons should have expected Aegon III to remember that. And both Addam and Alyn had been acknowledged by Corlys himself, who had named Addam his heir (and considering Alyn was Addam's heir, it is likely this placed Alyn in the line of succession as well).

Unwin became regent, Hand of the King, and Protector of the Realm after Corlys died. And he and Alyn apparently did not get along at all. If Peake had backed another Velaryon in this issue the wishes of the late Corlys as well as the quasi-autist boy king might have been completely irrelevant.

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Keeping in mind that we don't know whent he betrothal was made, it might have been Aegon III who betrothed Daena to Baelor.

Definitely. But it was Daeron I who married Baelor to Daena. And it is odd that the king would arrange a betrothed for his second son but not his eldest son and heir.

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If it had been Daeron I, it could be possible that he arranged the Baelor-Daena match because he was about to leave for war. Baelor was his heir, after all, so the marriage could have been a way to strengthen Baelor's position in case Daeron would not return. Depending on what Baelor was like before his visit to Dorne, it might have been clear early on that, given the choice, Baelor would not be willing to marry. By having his siblings marry, Daeron would have ensured that House Targaryen would definitly continue, whilst keeping other houses from interfering. Daeron seems to have been rather busy with arranging betrothals for his siblings, as not only did Baelor and Daena marry during his reign, but he was also trying to arrange a betrothal between the Sealord of Braavos, and one of his other two sisters (and I would assume that was Rhaena).

Baelor and Daena married in 160 AC, so it is not likely that the war had much to do with that. Could have been in the short time before the rebellion in Dorne began and Daeron I had to return to the war. It is just odd that he would not marry himself without good reason and give his eldest younger sister to his brother rather than claiming her himself.

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Wouldn't the usage of "Lady Penrose" in that setting imply that Parchements was being ruled by a female Penrose, who have several sons as her heirs? Because that's how I would read it.

Not necessarily. The Penroses could all still have been pretty young at that time. Not to mention that the focus of the story might have been on the mother. Lysa is also Lady Arryn despite the fact that she is not the Ruling Lady Arryn, and so forth.

52 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

There's also the Aelor/Aelora twincest.

Yeah, I forgot that one. That's straightforward Targaryen incest, possibly also arranged during the reign of Daeron II.

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A mostly unrelated topic (but since this thread has been mostly hijacked by Targaryen marriage policy speculation, I suppose it doesn't matter);

What do you guys make of the Daemon-Rhea Royce match?

It seems that Rhea was unrelated (which may have been in part why Daemon was so dissatisfied with her as a bride), and she was also the ruling Lady Royce. I find it mildly curious. On one hand it makes sense, because this way Daemon would get a keep and lands of his own by proxy, but I still wonder, because at the time there haven't been many male Targaryens left (I'm no good at timeline, but only Viserys and Daemon were left at one point), and had they any chidren, they would probably get into conflict if these children will be Royces or Targaryens.

What we know of that suggests that the key element was the fact that Rhea Royce was the heir to Runestone at that point. Prince Daemon was a second son and thus not likely to inherit anything. Marrying a rich heiress was the best he could hope for.

And there is another thing to consider - Daemon's character, his hotheadedness and cruelty. Those would have been things that should have troubled Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, remembering them of their own beloved uncle. By marrying Daemon to Rhea they got him away from court and out of sight. Not to mention that being a father and all could have cooled him down somewhat. Viserys and Aemma were still young and people would have hoped they would produce more children, not to mention that Baelon was still there and would hopefully rule for decades to come before his son would take over.

Jaehaerys I and Alysanne consciously decided to reduce the branches of the family by giving two of his daughters to the Faith and not allowing Gael (or any other daughters) to marry one of Baelon's sons. They already had created two rival royal branches in the descendants of Aemon and Alyssa-Baelon, and they clearly did not intend to continue this game with Daemon.

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Also, I wonder if Daemon was marched with a Vale noblewoman, because Aemma Arryn also came form the Vale? Maybe a check on wild, ambitious Daemon in case he schemed against Viserys in future? Or the Arryns helped to arrange it? Or was it just a coincidence?

That is certainly a strong possibility. Not to mention that Baelon/Viserys might have intended to strengthen their ties to the Vale in an effort to secure the support of another great house should push come to shove after the death of the Old King. Rhaenys had the Velaryon fleet and House Baratheon while Baelon had no marital ties to great houses until Viserys married Aemma.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, a pretty likely possibility, even Cersei wants to surround Tommen with boys he could befriend and grow up with like Robert and Ned grew up together.

It is common tradition in westeros, yes. I only want to point out that even if Russel, son of lady Merryweather would become friend with Tommen, he still would have little chances that his children would marry with royal house. Greater houses often took wards from lesser houses but not all of them ended up with marriage. 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That really depends on the whole Hightower marriage situation. Lord Leyton remarry constantly. Depending when exactly he chose to remarry and depending when exactly his sons and daughters were born (which we don't really know) it is easily enough possible that no Hightower girl had the right age for Rhaegar. Not to mention that it might be less prestigious to marry the younger daughter of some lord. Just look what kind of nobody Leyla Hightower married, or with whom one of Mace's sisters or some of uncles ended up with.

Then why Jorah considered himself not worthy of Leyton's youngest daughter? He certainly was better match than this nobody Jon Cupps. Other daughters of Leyton ended up with better matches. Alysanne married lord Ambrose and Denyse married desmond redwyne, possibly a brother of Paxter Redwyne, lord admiral of reach and lord of the arbor.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Obviously a privilege connected to their status as landed knights, or else they would not be allowed to do that, right? They aren't lords, after all.

Just how is it obvious?

Ser Gregor Clegane is not a lord. He is a knight - a landed one, after his father had a hunting accident.

Sandor Clegane is not a knight.

If Ser Gregor has died without children, and Sandor were not ineligible as Kingsguard - could Sandor as a non-knight inherit the Clegane lands?

As a non-knight landholder, would Sandor be able to call banners etc., just as ser Gregor as a landed knight could?

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On 11/20/2016 at 8:22 AM, Jaak said:

Vast tracts, or small pieces? We do have an example where vast tracts of land were sold - Borrell reports that Starks took Manderly gold. How many Reach hands was the market price of the whole fief of White Harbour?

Interestingly, there some perhaps related events that are said to have occurred around c.700BC in regards to the Wolf's Den:

  • Karlon Stark, a younger son of the King, helps put down a "rebel lord" & is awarded his own lands. He builds a castle called Karl's Hold as the seat of his new Stark cadet branch. Eventually the castle becomes known as Karhold & the House the Karstarks.
  • House Bolton bends the knee to Winterfell (strange, they had already done that centuries before when the last Red King, Rogar the Huntsman, bent the knee & swore fealty to King Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf) & agrees to stop flaying their enemies (strangely, historically the Starks).
  • The "overmighty" Manderlys are driven from the Reach "at the behest" of Perceon III Gardener (likely a weak king manipulated, though the Manderlys may not have been completely innocent) by Lord Lorimar Peake (mmm, why is the Manderlys' "Bracken" in charge of the royal power/forces? And why if the Manderlys were such a threat, that the Peakes were awarded their castle of Dunstonbury, & possibly Whitegrove too, that forms a three-castle power bloc on Highgarden's doorstep lasting ~900 years?). Anyway, in fleeing the Reach the Manderlys load up their ships with people (Lord Manderlys carry, among others, the title "Defender of the Dispossessed") & gold & whatever other riches they can from Dunstonbury & sail around Dorne & up the Narrow Sea to the White Knife. They're welcomed by House Stark who they bend the knee to & are awarded the Wolf's Den & its lands, tasked with defending the White Knife.
  • A thousand years after it began with the Rape of the Three Sisters, the (intermittent) War Across the Water between the Starks & the Arryns ends when the former "simply loses interest" in fighting with them for control of the Three Sisters.

Perhaps also of note to consider:

  • Centuries ago, King Harlon Stark besieges the Dreadfort after House Bolton (them again?) rebels against Winterfell & after two years he starves them out, presumably with them meeting terms & bending the knee (again).
  • After holding the Wolf's Den for ~500 years, House Greystark (a Stark cadet branch) rises in rebellion with House Bolton (really?!) against Winterfell & get themselves extinct in the process.

So to help explain how the Wolf's Den is free for the Manderlys to be given it & to not have the Boltons rebel against the Starks so many times since they first bend the knee to Winterfell it doesn't make sense they are still around:

c.702BC: Houses Greystark & Bolton form an alliance in rebellion against King Harlon Stark of Winterfell, where in the ensuing war the Greystarks are wiped out & the surviving Boltons (perhaps after having done some Stark flaying, mayhaps Harlon himself) are forced to retreat to the Dreadfort, where the Starks begin a siege.

c.700BC:

  • House Manderly are driven out of the Reach by Lord Lorimar Peake on the order of Perceon III Gardener. They load their ships with their people & their riches, fleeing into exile before they can be overwhelmed. Knowing as Reachmen they wouldn't be welcome in the Westerlands, Dorne or the Stormlands, also neither in the Riverlands where various petty kings had been warring since the fall of House Justman, & perhaps not the Vale with so much less fertile land than the Reach long consolidated under the rule of House Arryn; they may have heard of House Greystarks' fall & the vacancy of the Wolf's Den, & so head North.
  • After 2 years, the Boltons are starved out of & so surrender, bend the knee & accept terms which include no more flaying. A younger son of Winterfell, Karlon Stark, is rewarded for his efforts in the war & is given some of the Bolton's repossessed lands by his king (either Harlon, or if he died in the war, his elder brother) to form a new Stark cadet branch after the extinction of the old one, which eventually becomes House Karstark.
  • The Manderlys arrive at the White Knife looking for sanctuary. With Karlon instead already assigned to hold his new lands & make sure the Boltons are kept in check, & the Wolf's Den needing a new keeper; the Stark king wisely notes the Manderlys have the fleet, the money, the people, the desperation, & now his loyalty as he accepts their oaths spoken on bended knee & rises them up as the new lords of the castle & defenders of the White Knife. He takes their gold, but either gives (some of) it back to them for the renovation costs, or loans it back to them which they use for such.
  • With the Wolf's Den finally having the right keepers for the job, the Starks seek peace with Eyrie & Sisterton, ending the Worthless War.
On 11/20/2016 at 8:24 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Aerea and Rhalla were born in 41-43 AC, and thus would have been only 10-12 years old when Corlys was born.

Yeah unless the timeline is retconned in Fire & Blood for the twins to be born earlier (which may not mesh well with how quickly Aenys' rule falls when he marries them in 41AC) &/or Corlys is born earlier, there's basically no chance one of them is his mother. Plus, seeing as at least some of the "nine lesser claimants" are their descendants, one of them being Corlys' mother could make the numbers at the GC of 101 harder to round out. And if Corlys actually had a claim that way, his united with Rhaenys' in the form of Laenor makes me think that the boy would've gained more support than Viserys winning 20:1 (though I think it was more like only 2:1 for Viserys, with the "rumpured" figure being historical bias).

On 11/20/2016 at 8:24 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Either Daemon, or Daemon's son were Corlys's grandfather, I'd assume. We don't know when Corlys inherited, nor do we know how Daemon relates to Alyssa and the others. Was he Alyssa's sibling (very possible)? Or her nephew?

Mmm, I hadn't considered Daemon being his great-grandfather. Certainly possible. I suppose it depends on when Corlys had finished his voyaging by (conveniently) that he inherited from his grandsire, because as you've said to me before, he probably wouldn't have done anymore once he became lord. I wonder if perhaps Prince Daemon was named after Lord Daemon, whether he was still alive or not, by Jaehaerys or Baelon ...

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

It certainly could be. But there is a rather interesting question as to why Aegon IV never acknowledged the boy once he became king. True, while Baelor and Viserys II were still king telling the truth openly might have gotten him into trouble, but afterwards there was no reason not to. After all, Aegon acknowledged all his great bastards upon their birth. One wonders whether Daena's presence had something to do with that.

Yeah that is an interesting one ... Well, we know that Daena wasn't one of Aegon's "nine loves" & (IIRC) there's nothing to suggest there was anything between them after Daemon's birth. If she were still alive I could certainly see her impression of him souring over time & perhaps that (& him knowing so) &/or pressuring Aegon to acknowledge Daemon may have played a part in why he didn't for so long.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Daeron II, Maekar, and Aegon V all had to be accepted by the time their turn came because the Realm had long accepted their wives.

And Mariah's "Dornish" influence on Daeron II is said to have been a sour point for his political enemies, even if she perhaps died before the 1st BfR. At least two of her sons still had Valyrian features. Dyanna was ~15 years dead when Maekar took the throne & some of her children at least (& I think Daeron's is "mixed" from his grandmother) had Valyrian features. And Betha seems to have proven herself a rather popular queen (certainly in the early days at least) & some of her children had Valyrian features (not that it mattered as much since say the 3rd BfR).

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

And he succeeded in that because he was the king and called the shots. He singlehandedly made peace with the murderers of his brother. What does that tell you about his charisma, determination, and outright power? Baelor the Blessed was one of the most powerful Targaryen kings in Westerosi history.

We know that this was Baelor. And the other idea is just crap. Prince Viserys managed the Realm in Baelor's name but Baelor still did and got what he wanted. He built his Great Sept, he did his charities, he chose new High Septons, he threw the whores out of his city, he replaced the ravens with doves, and so on. Viserys only had so much power as his nephew granted him. That was presumably pretty much in things Baelor did not care about but rather little or none in things he wanted to control. Like the peace with Dorne, for instance.

I'm going to take the middle ground here. First though, good point on Baelor's power - I'd never considered. For however many that were follies that failed, he did achieve a lot (though most of his successful policies did come with negative side-effects, if often only coming up further in the future instead &/or manipulated by others). There's also him making Lord (probably rather minor, but still) Belgrave wash the ulcerous feet of a leper (seven hells, GRRM needs to give us that story!) showing his direct power of a vassal (& however demeaning, not exactly one that breaks the feudal agreement), & lords & knights from across the realm sending their daughters to the Maidenvault to earn brownie points with him to show the patronage (some) of his vassals sought from him. Though he does get points off for the manner of it & that some of the fathers purely for manipulative purposes & not piety, plus also handy for the lesser Houses of instead of just giving an excess daughter to the Faith; they still can in a way, but here they get to elevate her to a royal companion (however limited). And we know from the likes of Barba Bracken that that sort of king-vassal patronage could bear fruit in other ways after the king's death besides whatever benefits may have come Baelor himself.

The peace with Dorne definitely is down to Baelor, but it certainly helped he had a helpful (if annoyed) super-Hand in Viserys to assist in smoothing the whole thing over. Though Baelor was the new king, the previous one had not long been murdered under a peace banner because he was had been winning the rebellion against him, & then presumably the royalist forces in Dorne were broken & beaten back out of the country. Things wouldn't exactly have been happy between the different parties & yet peace was achieved & held for the rest of Baelor's reign (some would fear going against his piety, but a military commander or vengeance-seeker he was not). If the likes of financial-wizard Viserys weren't on Hand (heh) during this time either, there's the possibility that Baelor's "piety projects" could've financially crippled realm & so civil unrest that perhaps could've threatened the peace. Viserys kept it with his reign (& may have been able to bring Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms had he reigned longer) & his influence on his grandson, Daeron (though Baelor was obviously the greater idol here) helped to stay the threat of the peace during the reign of Aegon IV (though they were lucky his "dragons" failed, but less so when the fleet was scattered & destroyed, particularly if it was carrying Oakenfist). Finally, Daeron (however much too much he allowed the Dornish) was the one who was actually able to solidify the peace by bringing Dorne into the realm.

Viserys was Hand for probably ~15 years before Baelor came to the throne being the face of the dynasty at the forefront of the rebuilding from the Dance & the administrator whilst Daeron spent much of his time at war. During both of these periods Viserys was the one actually playing the role as king far more & had proved himself so far the best Targaryen ruler only behind Jaehaerys I (& that's saying a lot if we're including Velaryons - Alyssa & Corlys) & the best Hand only behind Barth (& that's saying a lot to be above Tyland Lannister, Robar Baratheon & even of course the Sea Snake); & had he lived during there time, I think he could've been even better than both. Viserys obviously had a deep understanding of the Hand-King dynamic & how the relationship should be, & so deferring to Baelor the final say with wise advice both when it was asked for & when his king needed it. I don't think Baelor had intended to actually war with the Iron Islands & the North to bring them "freedom" because he was a peaceable man, but if his Faith-madness had driven him to that point, Viserys did/would've turned him away from it.. Anyway besides understanding the system, Viserys allowed so much ruling freedom to Daeron (not naming himself Regent, allowing him to war) & Baelor (so many ruling things, but also making no power play of any kind against Baelor - even though he'd taken septon vows, which it wouldn't be unfeasible for his uncle to use against him) because they were his nephews & he remembered what the Dance & Regency were like for himself & his brother.

As much power as Baelor obviously had, he also did to an extent because Viserys didn't overstep his mark. Even with the Dornish hostages, Viserys followed normal protocol having them imprisoned to await execution before Baelor was crowned, but he released them when his newly-ascended king told him to.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

That is not very likely considering that we know the Baratheons weren't exactly on good footing with the Iron Throne for years after the Dance. I guess the fact that they most likely firmly stood at Daeron II's side during the First Blackfyre Rebellion might have been the beginning to change that but I see no reason to believe that Daeron II would have married his eldest son to a Baratheon of all people.

Especially with Lord Borros dying at the Muddy Mess & the perhaps the chance for better new blood to come, the relationship certainly would've improved in the 25-odd years since the end of the Dance & Daeron I's ascension, particularly after the Daeron the Daring pretenders were over. And again, at least eventually Viserys would be there pushing forward with improving relations between the Crown & its vassals (along with some of them between themselves) in the latter part of his brother's reign. Certainly the Baratheons wouldn't have played as large a role for Daeron as Orys (initially) did for Aegon I in the FDW seeing as Daeron himself led the Boneway host (he was always going to lead one of them though & Lyonel Tyrell most likely the other as Warden of the South) & also more of the realm turned out for the Young Dragon, but they still were the Lord Paramounts of the closest region to Dorne being at the end of both entry points (plus also for the royal ships to resupply & whatnot). I know much of it is only fanon, but in the MUSH the Baratheons have a strong military relationship, especially, with the Crown.

It'd be interesting to know which side, if any, they favoured between Aegon IV & Prince Daeron (who obviously had a few powerful friends who weren't Martells/Dornish, likely including the Arryns) ... But we do know that they stayed loyal to Daeron II (even if there was any reluctance) & a lot of the Stormlords (considering Daemon's appeal) still seem to have followed them in supporting the Red Dragon. But yeah, Daeron II had no real need (though it wouldn't hurt) to marry one of his sons to a Baratheon - the Dondarrions had their importance with their location (& likely so much more with royal blood), the Daynes had their importance in shoring up support within Dorne itself (same again), & the Penroses (same again, though perhaps they were on the Marches too &/or influential with Storm's End). Whether Alys had Targaryen/Velaryon ancestry or not, the Arryns did probably deserve to be rewarded more than the Baratheons. If Daeron was primarily/entirely in it for the politics though for all of his sons' matches, he would've courted the Reach for at least two of them though imo (Tyrell, Peake, Hightower) & perhaps another from the Westerlands (Reyne, Lannister, Crakehall) or Riverlands (Bracken, Lothston, Tully), with just the one for the Stormlands (Caron, Dondarrion, Baratheon). Plus we also know he had Elaena's hand to offer too - although politics played a part in all five to varying degrees, the overall policy had to primarily be about the Targaryen blood (well there was also politics within this, but you know what I mean) because he gave the Stormlands three (Penroses two!) matches whilst completely neglecting the Reach (who likely had some less present/strong somewhere from Rhaena & Garmund anyway) - seemingly pretty much from his court too.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Actually, I like the idea that Baelor learned from Manfred about Dunk and cared so much about him because he was aware that his brother-in-law was a jerk. Dunk certainly doesn't give the impression that he knows that Manfred's sister is married to the Prince of Dragonstone. He doesn't even know how many sons Daeron II has, what their names are, or how many sons they have.

Both a close or more distant familial link have their merits, but yeah that's a good point on Dunk. And even if Jena was still alive*, Dunk may have only known (if at all) that Baelor was married to some Marcher lord's daughter (Caron, Swann, Selmy, Peake, Tarly, etc besides Dondarrion) or some cousin (thinking she would most likely be a Targ by birth then).

I'm interested to know how old Matarys was & if the right age, why in-universe (besides meta) he wasn't a page or squire for his father, brother, uncle or cousin - perhaps he served someone else in the royal court not there or was fostered somewhere else.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

I'm inclined to believe that Laena might have inherited Vhagar from her grandfather, Prince Aemon. If Aemon had ridden Vhagar prior to Laena then it is possible that Jaehaerys I wasn't able to secure the dragon (or rather: was unable to prevent that the Velaryons eventually allow Laena to claim her). There were facilities to house dragons permanently on Driftmark, after all, and Laena could have remained there until Laena claimed her.

But we should also keep in mind that we have no idea who rode Dreamfyre between Rhaena and Helaena.

And Meleys could have had a rider prior to Rhaenys, too. She could easily have been the last dragon of Alyssa Velaryon, passing on the dragon to her granddaughter.

HAR! Apologies. That's interesting & certainly possible. Though I would lean to Baelon "the Brave" having claimed Vhagar as we know he couldn't have claimed Balerion, who Aemon himself is a possibility to have claimed & then Viserys (likely being forced by his father) to do so after his death. I prefer the thought though that Jaehaerys & Alysanne made a conscious decision for none of their children to claim Balerion so fresh after Maegor's atrocities with him. And also the one that Jaehaerys promised Rhaenys & Corlys that Laena could have first attempt at claiming Vhagar after Baelon's death (& subsequently the Velaryon claim dismissed at the GC).

I think Rhaena was still alive & riding on Vhagar c.80AC when Jaehaerys & Alysanne made their progress to the North & took six dragons with them. She would've only been 57 & Alysanne likely would've still when she got to that age, & of course Visenya was doing it in her early 70's. That's interesting to consider ... Perhaps Prince Aegon & he say died fighting for Daemon in the Stepstones (there's mention of Rhaenyra's favourite nuncle being Daemon & no hint another would be an Arryn, plus also the Triarchy having experience fighting dragons). Or perhaps wild Princess Viserra if Rhaena did pass earlier. Or perhaps Rhaena had a long life & so there wasn't that long really until Helaena eventually bonded with Dreamfyre.

I prefer the Red Queen only being ridden by the Queen Who Never Was, but Meleys is described as old (& Rhaenys was only 55 when she died, not that old if she was her hatchling) & was said to be the only possible contender (with superior rider than Aemond, Rhaenys, at the reins) besides Daemon & Caraxes to have any kind of half-decent shot to take down Vhagar. And Alyssa would be a very apt predecessor. Idk where Meleys would get her pre-Dance battle experience if it wasn't with Rhaenys say with her father in 92AC &/or later in the Stepstones. I suppose Rhaenys might not have claimed her until later, but she was almost certainly a dragonrider by the time Laenor was by 101AC & highly likely to have been much earlier as the heir of the Prince of Dragonstone (& rather fearless besides). Do we know if a person can claim another dragon after their previous one had died? It sounds like Viserys could've tried but perhaps it was an unknown then & assumed he could though (very likely they'd know from their days in the Valyria though, unless dragons lived far longer before the Doom). I'm not sure if Rhaena's very quickly dead hatchling before Morning counts ...

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Things get somewhat confused there since we don't exactly know when Prince Aegon, Jaehaerys I's firstborn son, died. He could have died as an infant but possibly also only as a teenager - and by then they might already decided that his younger brother Aemon would marry Jocelyn Baratheon while Alyssa Targaryen, Jaehaerys I's eldest daughter and eldest surviving child, was supposed to marry her brother Aegon but was then stuck with Baelon after Aegon died. The logical choice would have been to marry the eldest daughter to the eldest son - this was supposed to be the pair to continue the royal line. If Aegon had lived Baelon, Aeryn (if he had lived), or Vaegon could have been married to a hypothetical sister of Corlys.

True that, good points. Aegon could've easily been a teen & died in some stupid act perhaps involving dragon/s or just something more natural. Or perhaps he was a little younger, but not much so, & tried to claim Vhagar or Balerion who didn't respond well - or perhaps even a wild one like the Cannibal or Sheepstealer. I lean towards Aegon dying young before he could be betrothed & so Jocelyn was specifically matched to Aemon the heir, because of how much influence Alyssa had in the Targaryen dynasty for decades. But yes, it certainly does make a lot of sense also that Aegon & Alyssa would be betrothed (& if so, another reason why Jocelyn could be matched to Aemon if there was a sizeable gap back to Daella &/or if she herself was betrothed early to Rodrik for the Arryns' loyalty & also lose of Ronnel, etc). Being "Dragonless", obviously a smart cookie, & having politically-savvy parents who didn't need so many heirs; Vaegon probably would've ended up at the Citadel (or Faith at worst) anyway. Considering Jaehaerys & Alysanne's political motivations against the Starks (& some of their vassals) with what they did for the NW, I wonder if one out of Aeryn, Valerion or Gaemon (presuming they also had no dragon) may have even been encouraged to go to the Wall to show their further commitment to that cause ...

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Ran's recent information revealed that Aegon II was in need of Corlys' support after his restoration.

Do you have a link? I think I saw you mention it in the Aegon II vs Rhaenyra I thread ... It does all make sense considering the strength the Velaryons still had left & so the importance for Aegon took keep them on his side.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

I think Daeron I was already betrothed at his death - to a daughter of Baela and Alyn. If they had a daughter somewhat younger than Daeron I - say, 3-4 years - it makes sense that he didn't get around to marry her in his lifetime. Aegon III had a Velaryon queen and Alyn Velaryon was a very prominent figure during the reign of Aegon III and Daeron I. It is not far-fetched at all that his daughter would be the first choice to become the next Queen of Westeros. In that light the Baelor-Daena match makes sense - if Daeron I wasn't betrothed things get odd.

Yeah, that's a well-reasoned & logical alternative. If it's not that (I suppose a younger/est daughter of Rhaena & Garmund, depending on the timeline, may have been possible, but rather unlikely at best) or keeping himself free to seal/reward the peace, then it makes virtually no sense that he wouldn't marry Daena (unless one of his other sisters) because he would still have Baelor, two sisters, even Viserys if need be, &/or little Daeron to use for political marriages if he wanted to.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

If Daena was Jena's mother that could easily enough have been included in the family tree. But putting in the Dondarrions and Penroses between the Targaryen-Hightower girls and Jena and Aelinor would have been much more complicated.

Very true, though GRRM could be saving it for D&E or Fire & Blood (whoever Jena's parents were, we both think there's a blood connection somehow to Baelor, hence presumably why GRRM is saving it for at least Aelinor too). If Ronnel Penrose was descended from Baela & Alyn, that could've easily been included ...

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

My way to resolve this is going with Ronnel as the Lord of Parchments, being a son of one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls. From his first wife he had a son, the future Lord of Parchments, and Aelinor (who would marry Prince Aerys), Elaena was his second wife (married early on during the reign of Daeron II) giving him Robin, Laena, Jocelyn, and Joy Penrose (the names Laena and Jocelyn also strongly suggest that Ronnel is descended from Laena Velaryon and Jocelyn Baratheon through Rhaena Targaryen - Joy might actually be Michael Manwoody's daughter). Now, Ronnel Penrose would already have been dead by the time of the First Blackfyre Rebellion, making his son from his first wife the new Lord of Parchments whose sons were then killed by Fireball during the war.

Nice work. I could see that being the case, but why would Joy possibly be Michael's daughter? Sure they married "not long after" Ronnel's death (which could've been soon before the 1st BfR to still fit Ronnel not being the Lord Penrose as is required & Elaena could've married Michael soon after). but I think if Elaena had another Viserys-episode or anything similar (even with Joy being so far down the succession) that there would've been some hint of it.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is some chance that Maegor might have forced his new heir Aerea to mount Vhagar, considering that he should have been very interested in ensuring that a person he could trust would ride his mother's dragon after her.

Possible, but I have a hard time imagining a 4-7 year old claiming Vhagar (who may sense a scared kid, terrified mother, &/or angry/impatient step-father), even (geez, especially) under duress. Aemond was already 10, & quite the brash one at that, when he claimed Vhagar & he forgot to be scared because he was in a rush because of Joffrey & so the adrenaline would've already been pumping.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Come on, how likely is it that Aegon and Daena should just meet each other by accident? And why would Daena want to have an affair with some cousin she scarcely knew? Something smells fishy there - Aegon was a very capable womanizer and Daena bored and not exactly a sexually experienced woman. This whole thing was likely a setup sold to Daena as a sexual adventure.

I wasn't meaning they would like that. Daena likely had some sort of help from someone in the Maidenvault &/or the wider Red Keep to get out of where she was imprisoned, & she not need necessarily even have left the castle itself, at least not at first to either meet up with Aegon (who may have had help himself too to get to Daena) somehow (whether set-up, or wanted arrangement, or chance, or whatever). Barba is one of the more likely candidates around Daena to have helped her, but I don't know what is the point or how (the Maidenvault had very restricted access so it would be quite hard for Barba to communicate with her father, assuming he was even in KL at the time) some big elaborated plan to frame her o.O It completely fits with what we know about their personalities - Daena was willful (& whether actually thinking of & planning it beforehand or only after getting pregnant, I think she would tried to pass off Daemon as Baelor's son if she could - of course it wouldn't work, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't try) & Aegon tried to fuck just about any woman (especially unattached, & it's not like that would always stop him from ones that were - Megette, Falena, etc) that took his fancy. And I think Aegon was "very capable" in so far he was a Targaryen prince (keep his personality, but put him in your average male peasant - he probably wouldn't do so well then either - even if you changed that to a handsome knight or even lord, he wouldn't do anywhere near as well). Sure he was a womaniser, but he wasn't some master "player" (even with his royal benefits). Why wouldn't Daena know Aegon & vice versa?! She was at least 16 when Baelor shut her & their sisters away, perhaps 18, mayhaps even 20(!) if we take "early" in Baelor's reign to be the first half. Aegon seems to have spent a lot of time at court before Baelor ascended & even named his son after his oldest cousin who was only 10 at the time - there was some sort of bond their between the princes & perhaps only more so once Daeron became king & (somewhat, enough) martial Aegon may have slid into his inner circle (if he wasn't already), being around him often (& so often Daena) when they got back to KL from Dorne.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

That isn't the issue Yandel mentions. Yandel specifically talks about the blood of Egg's bride, not the reason why they marry. Viserys I also loved Alicent, but a king can easily enough marry a Hightower for love.

You mean this?

Aegon V had married for love, taking to wife the Lady Betha Blackwood, the spirited (some say willful) daughter of the Lord of Raventree Hall, who became known as Black Betha for her dark eyes and raven hair. When they wed, in 220 AC, the bride was nineteen and Aegon twenty, so far down in the line of succession that the match provoked no opposition. (The World of Ice & Fire, Aegon V)

I'm pretty sure Alysanne Blackwood would've been called Black Aly for the same thing. And no, Yandel doesn't mention "blood" specifically, it's only an inference. A fair one, but that doesn't rule it out be something else entirely (though unlikely, if just given his brothers' & cousins' marriages) or in conjunction with that.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that would allow them to keep those features for millennia. The Valyrians have to practice incest to accomplish this.

How have the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, Durrandons/Baratheons of Storm's End, Starks of Winterfell, etc etc seemingly retained the same House-specific "looks" in some members (at least) for centuries, if not, millenia? I suspect something to do with magic pertaining to their seats - whether it's the weirwood heart tree, being essentially a giant gold nugget, be it magic (GEotD imo for SE) used in its construction, be it hot springs, be it magical blood from the Dawn Age/AoH (from the CotF?), etc etc. Whatever the case, something of a magical nature has ensured the retaining of House-specific genetics for so long past all logical reason IRL (& that's even with the amount of noble in-breeding). Dawn (i.e. dragonsteel imo, possibly original Lightbringer) is obviously magical af, perhaps Starfall itself is too especially as it was supposedly built on the same meteorite.

Who says that Valyrian blood is "recessive" to so much? By our genetics, Dany should only have a tiny fraction of Aegon & Rhaenys' blood left, but she still has the Valyrian features, had a part in hatching the eggs & is a dragonrider (if new to it). I think the Valyrians more did it for their own superiority & to retain their ability to control dragons through their magical bloodlines. The reason I think why Dany specifically can do it (& also why Jon is likely TPtwP, or one/one part of anyway) & not Targs a century or so ago is because of her Valyrian blood, Dayne blood (GEotD, proto-Valyrians) & Blackwood blood (First Men, CotF ancestry going back). GRRM could've chosen any two Houses for those of Dany's great-grandmother & great-great-grandmother (of course made even stronger by previous generations of tradition & prophecy-fueled incest) & yet he choose such unique ones.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Because she had once been married to a king who discarded her.

A king who didn't put her aside because he loved another woman, or because she couldn't bear children, or she had been unfaithful, or anything. Sure, Daena was Defiant, but Baelor didn't even consummate the marriage. Would she have had a bastard son if he had of "closed his eyes & fucked her", or married her off to someone else, or you know not imprison her?! Probably not. And even if she did & was unattached, it's a minor political scandal at worst, probably only gossip for the court & the commons. Baelor, however unwittingly, pretty much set-up everything up for Daena to be defiant (& so the Blackfyre Rebellions in a way). But no instead of blaming himself he prays for her soul & thankfully kills himself in the process before he could do even more damaging & batshit-insane "acts of piety".

He was a nutter, whose religious zealotry made him afraid of his own dick, & then blamed that on his sisters (one of whom was only like ~12-13) because (& also, "all women are wanton") they had millenia of in-built genetics deemed superior & indoctrination (oh wait, that was also him too) to further such with incest like it was all their fault, & so logically shut them away imprisoned them (fuck off "comfortable confinement", it's still forced enclosure) from not only himself but the outside world. But then is hypocritical enough to make a betrothal for his young male cousin who has the same features & also prays & fasts that another cousin, that kid's father, has more of those kind of kids (even the girls) to survive via (marital) raping his weak sister-wife. What would've happened if the female 161AC twin survived? Would he start looking at her as an 8 year old & have to lock her up too? What if he had of lived long enough for Princess Daenerys? She'd probably be locked away too. I agree with you he certainly had his own kind of strong royal power & did some good things, but the guy was a fucking crazy! And he wasn't harmless - he went too far with his self-deluded & self-important piety, even (actually in a way, particularly) with Dorne, he could've placed huge financial stress on the Crown if it wasn't for Viserys & that he didn't reign too long to do so, book burning, possible religious intolerance, highly patriarchal & dehumanising & dangerous ideologies on women (for their fathers' financial benefit!), large-scale (ridiculous) interference in the established religious & "education" & ahem "mercantile" (for someone supposedly so charitable & forgiving, he didn't even give the children born into it to the Faith or anything, just throw them all out into the countryside & think everything would be ok because he was pious - what a cunt!) systems, fasting himself (& anyone else he influenced to do such too), etc etc.

Rant over/

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Regardless from whom the Hightowers are ultimately descended their standing comes from the fact that they are the former Kings of Oldtown, the second richest family in the Realm, and one of the oldest noble houses of the entire Realm. Not to mention their influence with the Faith and the Citadel.

Most certainly. Their GEotD ancestry giving (some of) them Valyrian-like feature/s is just one more thing to add to that list. As I said in my last reply to Paxter (on top of what I said to you about Alicent), such helps to explain the Hightowers' involvements with the Targs during the first half of the royal dynasty. And I have more thoughst on Lord Jon Hightower with Serenei of Lys for Aegon IV, but that's not GEotD-related.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

Viserys certainly was a good Hand but we know Baelor made his peace on his own after his long march. Viserys wasn't at Sunspear and while Baelor might have informed his uncle via raven there is no reason to believe he asked for his advice or permission when he decided to betroth young Daeron to Mariah Martell. Viserys certainly would have known that Baelor wanted to make a peace but not necessarily the details. And we don't even know whether Baelor suggested the idea of such a marriage or whether the Prince of Dorne demanded such match.

Baelor's calling the shots, especially be there alone, but Viserys is still the one running the show at home (if still deferring to the king's will). At the very least, he knows the betrothal is happening before it's proclaimed. Particularly if Baelor wasn't going to reveal it to the court until he got back there himself, which we know took him a little while. That's interesting to think about who actually suggest a Targaryen-Martell match. Certainly (imo) if Viserys was involved he would know the value of such given Baelor's "vision". You said so yourself that Baelor was still married Daena & their (theoretical) line at least would inherit before Viserys'. But it doesn't take an archmaester to know that this guy really takes his shit seriously, isn't exactly in the best of health or takes care of himself, & it was no secret that he hadn't consummated his year-long marriage yet. There's the possibility that Baelor himself may have even divulged to the Prince of Dorne that he wasn't intending to continue his own line either. Baelor was set on peace, but he doesn't seem to have any genuine intent on Dorne bending the knee & unifying all of the continent, even when that was Daeron's goal (& if done properly, should actually stop warring between the Crown & the Dornish altogether, not just a peace that was threatened again only 3 years after he died - Daeron had no fucking idea though, only looking at it martially with sfa concern for any kind of politics). Pretty sweet gig for the PoD & his vassals to get clemency (even though they were attacked in the first place by Daeron breaking Aegon & Nymor/Deria's "eternal" peace) for the war, no return to the utterly destructive conflict, remain independent which was just about the main reason they fought, & have a daughter eventually married to the kid who has a fair chance of inheriting the IT. Sure, Baelor laid the groundwork (if however unwittingly imo, unorthodox & just plain stupid in places), but it was Maron & Daeron who actually did it.

On 11/20/2016 at 1:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

I really don't think so. We know that both Valarr and Daeron the Drunken are old enough so that we know their parents were already married before the Blackfyre Rebellion. That makes it rather likely that the betrothals were made early on in Daeron II's reign. After all, the legitimate branches of House Targaryen were cut down to Daeron II and his four sons. The man needed grandsons to secure his dynasty. And to get those he needed to find brides for those four sons. The idea that Maekar was allowed to marry before Aerys or Rhaegel doesn't make much sense. Especially considering that we don't even know any details on the age gap between the brothers. If Maekar is a couple of years younger than Aerys and Baelor it makes even less sense that his parents would look for a bride for him while Baelor and Aerys are still without a future wife.

Even though the youngest son, Maekar was a better match than mad Rhaegel or book-bound Aerys:

... two of his four sons seemed all that could be wished in a knight, lord, or heir. The eldest, Prince Baelor, won the name Breakspear at the age of seventeen, following his famous victory at Princess Daenerys's wedding tourney; he defeated Daemon Blackfyre in the final tilt. And his youngest son, Prince Maekar, seemed like to show a similar prowess. (The World of Ice & Fire, Daeron II)

Your Baelors & Maekars are the ones you need to marry & have children before your Aerys' & Rhaegels, particularly if your Daeron. Get the good ones started early & first. Even if you take "seemed" as not turning out as ideal as Baelor fucking Breakspear, Maekar was still leaps & bounds ahead of asexual(?) Aerys (he gets some leeway there, but not with how utterly neglectful he was as king) who was prophecy-obsessed (though perhaps thankfully seemingly didn't take any practical, potentially lethal, action to facilitate such) & meek, mad, sickly Rhaegel (who at least seemingly did his marital duty, but the poor bastard wasn't good for too much else tbh). The timings are interesting: Aelinor obviously has some strong "Targ" going on, so if she was the right age, why wasn't she married to Baelor or Maekar (particularly as a Stormlord marriage isn't gone piss off certain people as much as a Dornish one, if at all) instead? If she married Aerys before Maekar married Dyanna, why was Aerys allowed to not consummate his marriage for +20 years?! Takes his books away & he might just do what they want (as childish as it sounds, unless they did do something like that & it didn't work & they relented).

Daenora only having Maegor in 232AC &/or Aelor & Aelora (afawk) having no children, makes me think think the Rhaegel-Alys marriage was not until say sometime around (or after) the 1st BfR instead of by 189AC. As I think the Arryns were likely allies of Daeron's from his days as PoD often in opposition to his father, whatever the timing of the match, it would only be a reward (& not trying to buy them) for their loyalty. Perhaps Rhaegel's match with Alys (even if she had Targaryen ancestry, which I'm nowhere near as sure as I am for Jena & Aelinor) was rather less important than at least those of the two actual important sons, Maekar & Baelor.

Admittedly, if Aerys didn't marry Aelinor until post 1st BfR, especially if not until the 200's, then what was the deal with him. There was already a decent number of grandchildren for Daeron by Baelor & Maekar (& perhaps Rhaegel too), including Aerion at least with full Valyrian features. So Aerys was not that important that he couldn't perhaps be better utilised (at least for himself) at say the Citadel to become a maester (though I think he would only care about the VS link, & perhaps even that only in so far as more prophecy reading) ... Idk, mayhaps Aerys was kept unmarried for a few years whilst at least two of his brothers were & then suddenly perhaps Aelinor was born, Daeron called dibs for Aerys, & so the waiting game begun (seven hells, that sentence sounds horrible!) ...

Again admittedly, your Ronnel & Aelinor proposal does fit nicely within their own tree at least, & so would constitute an early Aerys-Aelinor match ... If so though, why the hell was Aerys not allowed to consummate the marriage for ~20 years before he even became king himself?! Really, I don't see how such could've done Daeron any political good, perhaps quite the contrary ...

On 11/20/2016 at 6:57 PM, Paxter Redwyne said:

For all we know, only Peakes supported Daemon. No other marcher houses were mentioned to be on his side. And during tourney at Ashford, Carons, Swanns and Dondarrions seemed to enjoy royal favor.

Neither do we know of any Vale Houses who supported Daemon, besides those of the Three Sisters, & I don't think they alone are a large enough threat to have delayed (there were battles between the Red & Black Dragons in the Vale, & it doesn't seem like the loyalist-Valemen were able to assist their counterparts in the Riverlands, even though the war lasted almost a year & the last fighting may have been in the Riverlands before the Redgrass Field) the loyalists under the Arryns until soon before the Redgrass Field. House/s like the Royces, Redforts, Graftons, &/or Shetts certainly could've though; & I'm leaning towards the Royces at least. The Carons & Swanns aren't being shown royal favour in TMK, they're just two Houses among many across the realm who rocked up at Ashford for the tourney specifically being attended by a large number of royals. They're also far closer geographically to Ashford than Houses from the Westerlands, Riverlands, Vale or Crownlands; meaning they would be more like to be present just by that. Even if they're still strong Blackfyre sympathisers at this time, they were welcomed back into the king's peace (so besides a hostage in KL & perhaps a little bit of gold &/or lands given up too, things are near enough back to normal, particularly with the stability of the Targaryen dynasty still at this time). It's House Ashford that is being shown the royal favour as the hosts who have managed to attract royal presence for whatever reason. As to the besides the Carons (they're just about the most likely of the unknown-status Marcher lords to have been for Daemon unless they had strong ties to the Dondarrions &/or Baratheons at the time), the Swanns & the Peakes as to the Marcher lords who (may in the case of the first two of course); there's also possibly the Vyrwels (who are at the 2nd BfR making it likely they supported Daemon), the Selmys (likely just as historically anti-Dornish & potential to be won over by Daemon as much as the others), & the Tarlys (see Selmy) - & those are just the Houses we know about from the Marches.

On 11/21/2016 at 2:56 AM, Grievous said:

The Laena match was in fact a suggestion by Runciter (and possibly by other members of the Small Council, though one assumes Otto Hightower might have had a differing opinion - but since it is said that the Small Council preferred Laena, I believe he might have pushed for this privately), while Viserys himself preferred Alicent.

I'm guessing there's historical bias here: whether from Runciter himself (or perhaps even Eustace who is confirmed to have been heavily biased) as the source or later by Gyldayn as the writer. The maesters, both the sources & later chroniclers alike, manipulate the text & history to make themselves (& at times the Hightowers & Faith, also of Oldtown) essentially look better. If Viserys did suggest Laena, I don't doubt that there's a fair chance Alicent caught his eye given what we know of his personality, that he had (likely, I think that's one reason why he was executed, even when Ser Perkin wasn't - because he had knighted so many men he was better to keep alive - & the exposed fake, Gaemon, wasn't; to remove another rival of Aegon II) a bastard around the time Alicent was pregnant with Prince Daeron, & there were rumours (though possibly/likely untrue?) that he had an affair with Alicent (who was also rumoured, this more unlikely imo, to have slept with Daemon earlier) before Aemma even died. Keep in mind who would Runciter be better to keep happy - Lord Hightower of Oldtown's brother or Lord Velaryon who likely wouldn't find out that he himself suggested/supported Alicent & not the king (&/or other/s on the Small Council besides Otto). If there's minutes or anything like that being kept of the SC meetings - the GM is probably going to be the one keeping such - easy for Runciter to manipulate if need be. Certainly we can both agree though that Otto was the main supporter behind the Alicent match.

23 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

And really if Daeron II cared only about Targaryen ancestry, he would marry Baelor to Hightower, Velaryon, Baratheon or Arryn.

Rhaena only had daughters with Garmund Hightower so unless they married back into House Hightower (a cousin or uncle) they & their children would take the House name of the husband, or if there were any who died young, or never married, or were widowed without children; they would die as a Hightower without passing it on. Though I suspect that the Hightowers have GEotD ancestry & so this may have made Rhaena's daughters more likely to retain Valyrian(like) feature/s, we have no idea what Houses any married into & have children with (though Aelinor, Jena &/or Alys are possibilities).

The Velaryons are certainly candidates for Valyrian-ancestry, but they may have simply had no unattached female members within a suitable age bracket a/v. AFAWK, the Baratheons didn't have a(nother) Valyrian family marry into them since Queen-Dowager/Mother/(fmr)Regent Alyssa Velaryon & Lord Robar's marriage in 50AC. If you're thinking that Alys Arryn had Targaryen ancestry from Princess Daella - Aemma was her & Lord Rodrik's only child. That being said, it's possible that she did from a descendant of Rhaena or Baela, or some other Velaryon, one of Elaena's Penrose daughters (most likely eldest, Laena) may be possible if the timeline worked out (their own daughter in Alys young, Rhaegel only marrying her around 200AC), Daena (though extremely unlikely) has an unknown fate after freed from the Maidenvault ... Further back in the Targaryen lineage there is really only Aerea, Rhalla or their mother Rhaena & that is too far back of any real importance anyway.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For instance, we do know that Aegon V started to dislike the incest custom but there is no reason to believe Daeron II was opposed to that at all.

Even if Daeron II wasn't fond of it, he was making these (as we follow) matches of his sons to various cousins - it didn't get in the way off that. Sure that's definitely not sibling, avuncular, or even first-cousin incest; but if he genuinely wanted to avoid it, he'd make matches where there was no common (Targaryen) ancestry, however far back. He also possibly supported/made the Aelor-Aelora & Aegon-Daella (if indeed they were betrothed) matches.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It would make sense if the Dondarrions ruled the Dornish Marches, but they never did.

Not even the Carons who claim the title of "Lord of the Marches" do & seemingly haven't for centuries at least.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, we know they can call their banners and field quite a few men. Just look at the Templetons or the Conningtons.

Well some anyway. The Conningtons have nowhere near their former strength since the Bobellion. Still other landed knights that are likely to be comparatively powerful like the Templetons are the Dalts (control at least part of the mouth of the Greenblood & so possibly also the Planky Town), Masters Glovers & Tallharts, the Santagars (once had their own petty kingdom & their sigil & seat name may point to them controlling some forested area in not very-forested Dorne), both Shett branches (in & around rich & comparatively populous Gulltown) &/or the Waxleys (coastal seat, wax), possibly a few Ironborn cadet branches, Paeges (possibly formed from House Blackwood with perhaps the Brackens - because sigil - & have some historical & current relevance), for now the Haighs (Frey vassals & allies), & finally the GREEN APPLES!

21 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

We have no reason to assume that Daeron II was obsessed with blood purity. His own son already didn't look like a Targaryen. And Targaryens before effectively married with Hightowers, Baratheons and Arryns who do not have any Targaryen blood as far we know(at least during Daeron II era). And after the death of the last dragons Targaryens stopped marrying Velaryons what could suggest that they started to cared less about blood purity (except Jaehaerys II love marriage and Aerys II dictated marriage).

Daeron was betrothed to Princess Mariah when he was about 9 & the keystone of the Westeros-Dorne peace. He wasn't likely to have been able to get out of it (if he even wanted to) & indeed he was married & had Prince Baelor before Baelor I even died (& over all this is Prince Viserys watching to make sure things stay in place). Daeron couldn't help Baelor looking Dornish (Rhoynish) any more than the kid himself could.

Hightowers (imo) have GEotD ancestry which gives at least some of them Valyrian-like features, & their basically Great Lords in all but name (the Tyrells' strongest bannermen by far, five named lordly vassals, control of the realm's second largest city, possible distribution base for Redwyne vintages, former petty - but major in that regard - kings, founders & main patrons of the Citadel, essentially the home of the Faith in Westeros for more than a thousand years, etc). The Baratheons have Valyrian ancestry from Lord Aerion Targaryen, Queen Alyssa Velaryon (had a Targaryen mother), & Princess Rhaelle Targayen at least; whilst Lady Jocelyn Baratheon (Alyssa's daughter) was married to Aemon, Prince of Dragonstone. The Arryns received royal marriages from the Targaryens for their wealth & power mixed with proximity, loyalty & also as compensation for Lord Ronnel, his Stark wife (a match made by Queen Rhaenys to bind various historically angsty Houses together), & their children being murdered by his younger brother Jonos (who took the opportunity because of weak Aenys I succeeding the Conqueror).

The Targaryens still cared a lot about blood purity after the dragons died::

  • Viserys married his children, Aegon & Naerys, together likely at least part-wise to reaffirm their "Targaryeness" following the anti-Rogare (his wife Larra being of that family) sentiment that was heavy in the court during the Regency & likely even after.
  • Daeron I married his siblings, Baelor & Daena.
  • Rhaegel's twins, Aelor & Aelora, were married together. Egg may have once been betrothed to his sister, Daella, before he married Betha Blackwood)
  • Aerion Brightflame was married to Rhaegel's other daughter, Daenora, his first-cousin.

The Velaryons likely mainly dropped after Oakenfist was because much of their wealth was lost during the Sack of Driftmark during the Dance, & they lost a fair amount of naval strength then too, & then even more when Alyn was lost at sea likely with/leading Aegon IV's failed invasion of Dorne fleet which is scattered & effectively destroyed in a storm. Presumably also they just didn't have any female members a/v at the right times, or did but the king/s went with some other choice for whatever reason.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Before Prince Viserys returned Aegon III's only remaining heirs were his half-sisters and their children, making Rhaena's daughters rather important figures.

As Corwyn Corbray wasn't killed until 134AC & Prince Viserys returned to court by the next year (I think he did so soon before Corbray's death) so Rhaena's first daughter could only have been born in 135 at the earliest. Still, you made good points with this & this could still be apt with Aegon III not having Daeron with Daenaera until 143.

18 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

The Dondarrions have no Valyrian features either.

As Lords Manfred & Beric both have red-gold hair (no word on eye colour), it's fair to assume that this might be a genetic trait common in House Dondarrion, but that doesn't mean that Jena &/or some other Dondarrion/s who we don't know what looked like, couldn't have had Valyrian feature/s.

10 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Rhaena was born in 116 AC and Daeron II ascended to throne in 184 AC. So there is a chance, but not very big. 

Spoiler

(Great)GRANDCHILDREN!

 

7 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

Would anyone be interested in a general D&E-time politics and family relations thread?

Are there lots of Aegons since the Conquest?!

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I would imagine that they would have little success to look forward to. Addam had been extremely loyal to Rhaenyra, and Vaemond's siblings and sons should have expected Aegon III to remember that. And both Addam and Alyn had been acknowledged by Corlys himself, who had named Addam his heir (and considering Alyn was Addam's heir, it is likely this placed Alyn in the line of succession as well).

Indeed. I think it's extremely likely that Corlys married Baela & Alyn together (to bind their claims to Driftmark, plus further legitimise Alyn, & reaffirm the Targaryen-Velaryon relationship after all the harm it took during the Dance) after Aegon III's ascension (so Baela at least was a/v for the Pact of Ice & Fire, but Cregs chose Black Aly instead) & his own death the next year. It also gives further legitimacy to Alyn (only ~16!) wanting his grandfather's Regent position after the Sea Snake's death AND being the admiral of the Velaryon fleet by this time (I'm guessing he captained his own ship at least eventually during the Dance & that perhaps "cousin Daeron" had the command (even Corlys was obviously too old to actually be on the water fighting), but made some sort of dire mistake to help explain in-universe the in-universe & meta nightmare that is the Sack of Driftmark.

If Daeron was an experienced naval commander (he may have even fought for Daemon & Corlys in the Stepstones) it wouldn't be a huge leap that he would at least co-admiral with the extremely young Alyn (even with him being lord). If Daeron did have the was the admiral during the Gullet, then he may have stepped down or been demoted for Alyn to at least eventually rise. Unless Corlys held it on top of being a Regent, I'd guess that either Alyn (far more likely) or Daeron was named Master of Ships straight from the outset of the Regency (hell, possibly even before when Corlys was on Aegon II's Small Council). I definitely think Alyn was MoS by the time he was sent against Ryndoon in 133AC.

And despite seemingly not being a Regent at all, Oakenfist is noted as Peake's main rival - indeed that he sent Alyn against the Ironborn (perhaps also with Ryndoon too) hoping he would die, also further explains Baela having already been married to Alyn. I 100% think Peake had Jaehaera murdered (unlike her mother which was actually suicide) & we know he pushed very hard for the king to be matched to his own daughter (Baela & Rhaena even had to, again imo, pre-arrange with Aegon III to choose Daenaera at the great ball to thwart him). I think Peake also wanted Baela for his own House. I'm guessing Rhaena was married to Corwyn Corbray, brother of the commander of the Vale's army & Aegon's first Protector of the Realm, before Peake became a Regent (perhaps even whilst she was still in the Vale, after all, Luke had died pretty early & even if she would've been meant to marry Joff instead, he was dead before even halfway-130) to help explain how he didn't get his hands on her/make an attempt. Mayhaps I'm Peake bashing, but I wonder if he may have even somehow ordered Corwyn's death by crossbow at a parley at Runestone &/or Lady Jeyne Arryn's "illness" in Gulltown ... Both locations are close & likely happened around the same time imo (certainly they were the same year, the same one when Peake resigned because nobody (likely including Corwyn & Jeyne) wanted to give him any more royal power. Oh & that the Rogares "broke the Hand's (Peake) power", I also think his temper-tantrum resignation was when Alyn brought Viserys back from Lys & Peake unsuccessfully pushed for the annulment of Viserys' marriage to Larra say on the grounds that her brothers (& so the Rogare bank) had swindled the Iron Throne for still demanding a ransom even though they had bound Prince Viserys to them through marriage.

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Keeping in mind that we don't know whent he betrothal was made, it might have been Aegon III who betrothed Daena to Baelor. If it had been Daeron I, it could be possible that he arranged the Baelor-Daena match because he was about to leave for war. Baelor was his heir, after all, so the marriage could have been a way to strengthen Baelor's position in case Daeron would not return. Depending on what Baelor was like before his visit to Dorne, it might have been clear early on that, given the choice, Baelor would not be willing to marry. By having his siblings marry, Daeron would have ensured that House Targaryen would definitly continue, whilst keeping other houses from interfering. Daeron seems to have been rather busy with arranging betrothals for his siblings, as not only did Baelor and Daena marry during his reign, but he was also trying to arrange a betrothal between the Sealord of Braavos, and one of his other two sisters (and I would assume that was Rhaena).

Of course some of its only fanon, but some is essentially (or at least will be) semi-canon - the MUSH says:

  • It was Daeron who married Daena & Baelor & it was after only a short betrothal after he had come back from Dorne & before he would leave again to deal with the rebellion.
  • It was Rhaena with the Sealord (& its all but said he was whacked by a Faceless Man) - makes more sense certainly anyway as I'm guessing if for your assumption - than 3-years younger Elaena.

Whatever the case/s, that's some great speculative reasoning & I could easily see it going down like that!

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Wouldn't the usage of "Lady Penrose" in that setting imply that Parchements was being ruled by a female Penrose, who have several sons as her heirs? Because that's how I would read it. If one of the sons who died had been the Lord of Parchements, I would expect the event to have been described as "... when [Fireball]  killed Lord Penrose and his siblings, except for the youngest, as a kindness to his mother".

It could just be referring to her as a Lady like any female of a noble House & not the ruling Lady of Parchments ...

4 hours ago, lojzelote said:

What do you guys make of the Daemon-Rhea Royce match? It seems that Rhea was unrelated (which may have been in part why Daemon was so dissatisfied with her as a bride), and she was also the ruling Lady Royce. I find it mildly curious. On one hand it makes sense, because this way Daemon would get a keep and lands of his own by proxy, but I still wonder, because at the time there haven't been many male Targaryens left (I'm no good at timeline, but only Viserys and Daemon were left at one point), and had they any children, they would probably get into conflict if these children will be Royces or Targaryens. Also, I wonder if Daemon was marched with a Vale noblewoman, because Aemma Arryn also came form the Vale? Maybe a check on wild, ambitious Daemon in case he schemed against Viserys in future? Or the Arryns helped to arrange it? Or was it just a coincidence?

Not on Daemon & Rhea specifically, but addresses them, this is some pretty good speculation on how the match perhaps came to be. Yeah unless their younger brother Prince Aegon lived long enough (to end up dying in the Stepstones in Daemon & Corlys' war against the Triarchy?), Viserys & Daemon seem to have been the only males of House Targaryen left (certainly in the male-line anyway) until Viserys' first son with Alicent, another Prince Aegon, was born in 107AC. Actually, there's a fair chance that Archmaester Vaegon (Targaryen), their uncle, was still alive; but obviously he doesn't really count, unable to inherit. Yeah the dynamics of Daemon-Rhea children is weird ... Daemon would still be a prince, but perhaps there would be a really weird & rare occurrence of a Targaryen prince's (one who was actually arguably his brother's heir with the 92AC & 101AC precedents until Aegon's birth) children (even males) not having the royal title or House name. That is of course if it was decided that Rhea would inherit Runestone (& so their kids could lose their royal claim through their father). There's not going to be a House Targaryen of Runestone cadet branch certainly, if not by blood, but by name wiping out ancient House Royce. The more likely alternative is that Rhea would give up her claim to Runestone with the children being royal. Mariah Martell was older than Maron & so had to give up her claim to Sunspear by the time she married future Daeron II. And then there's Aemma herself who may have been Lord Rodrik's heir (particularly if Daella was his first wife) & whether she was or not, she would've given up any claim to the Eyrie upon marrying Viserys.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The Rogue Prince tells us that Daemon was married to Rhea Royce when he was 16, at year 97AC. At this point his father Balon was heir and the Prince of Dragonstone, so Daemon's marriage had to be a big thing. At the same time, though, Balon was very young and Viserys had just married and fathered Rhaenyra, so Daemon inheriting the crown may have seemed a very unlikely preposition. With this in mind a marriage that nearly made Daemon the second more powerful lord in the Vale could make some sense. I think that Aemma Arryn having influenced the match is a strong possibility. She and Rhea could have been childhood friends, and Daemon marries her only four years after Aemma married Viserys.

Baelon wasn't that young. He was already roughly 40 & if she was still alive, Alyssa was even older, so they likely weren't having anymore children. Plus though Viserys & Aemma had only been married for a few years I think she may have already had one failed pregnancy or birth of a boy. If she couldn't have surviving sons (which we know in hindsight she didn't) then by the precedents of 92AC (Jaehaerys choosing Baelon over Rhaenys) & 101AC (reaffirmed with the lords of the realm voting in favour of Viserys being Prince of Dragonstone over Laenor at the Great Council) Daemon would presumably be Viserys' heir ... Unless of course Viserys named his own heir, say Rhaenyra, instead; which we of course know he did. But yes, certainly Aemma may have influenced the Rhea-Daemon match, though she would only be about 15 when they married (& she herself had Rhaenyra - I think that may have been part of her fertility problems - in Baelon's rush to solidify the claim of his own line after his older brother's death (& being named PoD in Aemon's place), Aemma was only 11 when she was married to Viserys! She was definitely bedded by 14, & if I'm right about a pregnancy before Rhaenyra &/or Baelon pushing his son* to consummate (or Viserys just being a horny fucker like we know he was) she may have first been bedded when only 12 or 13!

*I subscribe to the theory that he forced his son (then already at least 15 & presumably having never bonded with one before) to claim Balerion to further solidify his claim - & we know Viserys never even bothered to claim even a hatchling, which there was ones around on Dragonstone at the very least in 120 (when the royal court went to Driftmark for Laenor's funeral & Viserys told Aemond they could go to Dragonstone afterwards for him to get one - who of course went for & got Vhagar instead) & likely at other times too with the Cannibal being known to eat them; after Balerion died in 94AC.

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7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

It is common tradition in westeros, yes. I only want to point out that even if Russel, son of lady Merryweather would become friend with Tommen, he still would have little chances that his children would marry with royal house. Greater houses often took wards from lesser houses but not all of them ended up with marriage. 

Sure, Tywin was also a ward at the court of Aegon V for a time, and nobody married him, either. But we are talking here about Targaryen cousins and their daughters. They would be considered as potential wives for the king's four unmarried sons.

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Then why Jorah considered himself not worthy of Leyton's youngest daughter? He certainly was better match than this nobody Jon Cupps. Other daughters of Leyton ended up with better matches. Alysanne married lord Ambrose and Denyse married desmond redwyne, possibly a brother of Paxter Redwyne, lord admiral of reach and lord of the arbor.

Was Jorah really a better match? The man calls himself 'lord' yet he lives in wooden hall. That is essentially a hovel. House Cupps might at least have a decent castle close to Oldtown and civilization. Bear Island is scarcely better than the lands beyond the Wall.

7 hours ago, Jaak said:

Just how is it obvious?

Ser Gregor Clegane is not a lord. He is a knight - a landed one, after his father had a hunting accident.

Sandor Clegane is not a knight.

If Ser Gregor has died without children, and Sandor were not ineligible as Kingsguard - could Sandor as a non-knight inherit the Clegane lands?

As a non-knight landholder, would Sandor be able to call banners etc., just as ser Gregor as a landed knight could?

Whether the Cleganes are really landed knights isn't clear. They own a tower - whether they also own sizable tracts of land is unclear. Be that as it may. One assumes that Sandor would indeed not inherit his father's lands would he stubbornly refuse to get himself a knighthood. And yes, it is also possible that a woman cannot inherit the lands of a landed knight at all because she cannot become a knight under any circumstances. There aren't any dames in Westeros, after all. At least not to our knowledge.

Presumably a man can inherit the lands of a landed knight through the female line. That could explain why the Templetons and others still exist. Or inheritance goes exclusively through the male line, meaning that the lands might go from a man to his third or fourth cousin if he has no sons or first cousins through the male line.

It might still be possible that some non-lord or non-landed-knight owns land yet that would most likely not mean he has the same privileges or rights as a lord or landed knight. One could imagine such a person to have peasants working on their lands without having the right to demand military or labour service. Such people exist in feudal societies, too.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Whether the Cleganes are really landed knights isn't clear. They own a tower - whether they also own sizable tracts of land is unclear. Be that as it may. One assumes that Sandor would indeed not inherit his father's lands would he stubbornly refuse to get himself a knighthood. And yes, it is also possible that a woman cannot inherit the lands of a landed knight at all because she cannot become a knight under any circumstances. There aren't any dames in Westeros, after all. At least not to our knowledge.

Certainly when Eddard (himself no knight) and ser Loras discuss attainder of ser Gregor, they do not disparage inheritance rights of Sandor. And Glovers of Deepwood Motte are neither lords nor knights.

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3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Certainly when Eddard (himself no knight) and ser Loras discuss attainder of ser Gregor, they do not disparage inheritance rights of Sandor. And Glovers of Deepwood Motte are neither lords nor knights.

The Glovers and Tallharts are technically masterly houses. They are not landed knights and thus other rules could apply there. Women could inherit such lands. The fact that the male Tallharts are all knights doesn't mean they have to be.

Why should Ned care about Sandor's rights of inheritance if it is clear that he as a non-knight could not inherit? Does Ned even know or care that Sandor is no knight? And could Sandor still take his brother's lands if he would be knighted after his brother's death/attainder?

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24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Glovers and Tallharts are technically masterly houses. They are not landed knights and thus other rules could apply there. Women could inherit such lands.

Or else the rules of property never actually care about knighthood, and a Master is simply a title for a male landowner who does not have a higher one (Lord or Knight).

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why should Ned care about Sandor's rights of inheritance if it is clear that he as a non-knight could not inherit? Does Ned even know or care that Sandor is no knight?

Petyr asserts that Sandor would inherit. And he at least knows enough about Cleganes to be informed about loathing. Plus, Sandor's lack of title would easily be noted hearing him referred to. Also, Petyr as a Lord, but no knight, is probably very aware what are the social embarrassments of non-knights and what are or are not the legal disabilities, if any.

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2 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Or else the rules of property never actually care about knighthood, and a Master is simply a title for a male landowner who does not have a higher one (Lord or Knight).

That seems unlikely considering there are no masters down in the South. The Lord Velaryon is styled 'Lord of the Tides and Master of Driftmark' but he is not just a master.

2 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Petyr asserts that Sandor would inherit. And he at least knows enough about Cleganes to be informed about loathing. Plus, Sandor's lack of title would easily be noted hearing him referred to. Also, Petyr as a Lord, but no knight, is probably very aware what are the social embarrassments of non-knights and what are or are not the legal disabilities, if any.

That could be a sign of George dropping the ball there. He clearly does not seem to have thought all that much about the inheritance rights of landed knights. But then, again, is House Clegane really a landed knight house. Are you a landed knight already just when you have some tower? That's not clear at all.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

That seems unlikely considering there are no masters down in the South. The Lord Velaryon is styled 'Lord of the Tides and Master of Driftmark' but he is not just a master.

Or masters are rare, and rarely attract mention. Compare the number of lords mentioned against the number of landed knights mentioned.

There are a number of southern lords who expressly are not knights - fairly few. Lord Petyr is not a knight. We hear that Lord Tytos wasn't. Willas is not knight, and accepted as heir.

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1 minute ago, Jaak said:

Or masters are rare, and rarely attract mention. Compare the number of lords mentioned against the number of landed knights mentioned.

Ran has said that George told them that the masters of the North are supposed to be roughly analogous to the landed knights of the South.

1 minute ago, Jaak said:

There are a number of southern lords who expressly are not knights - fairly few. Lord Petyr is not a knight. We hear that Lord Tytos wasn't. Willas is not knight, and accepted as heir.

What are you talking about? You don't have to be a knight to be a lord. But one would assume you have to be a knight to be a landed knight.

Perhaps you can inherit the lands of a landed knight when you are a non-knight male or a woman but don't retain all the rights and privileges you would have as a landed knight. After all, we know from George that landed knights are a special rank in the feudal hierarchy of Westeros.

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On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Yeah unless the timeline is retconned in Fire & Blood for the twins to be born earlier (which may not mesh well with how quickly Aenys' rule falls when he marries them in 41AC) &/or Corlys is born earlier, there's basically no chance one of them is his mother. Plus, seeing as at least some of the "nine lesser claimants" are their descendants, one of them being Corlys' mother could make the numbers at the GC of 101 harder to round out. And if Corlys actually had a claim that way, his united with Rhaenys' in the form of Laenor makes me think that the boy would've gained more support than Viserys winning 20:1 (though I think it was more like only 2:1 for Viserys, with the "rumpured" figure being historical bias).

If the claim in TRP that Viserys I had been married to Aemma Arryn for ten years when he took the throne in 103 AC then he would have married Aemma in 93 AC when the girl was merely eleven (she was born in 82 AC). This sets a precedent for early child marriage and quick consummation in the royal family (Aegon III and Jaehaera/Daenaera are other precedent prior to Tommen's wedding).

Thus it is still possible that Corlys is the son of either Aerea or Rhalla but it is not necessarily the likeliest possibility. If it was true then the nine lesser claimants would all be descendants of the other sister or (the descendants of legitimized) Targaryen bastards. After all, Aenys I could have had some bastard children (we know he was popular with the women) and Aemon, Baelon, and Vaegon could have illegitimate children, too.

But I'd also prefer the idea that Rhaena might be Corlys' mother. Through her alone Corlys wouldn't have as strong a claim as the descendants of Aenys I through Aegon and Rhaena. They could claim to be the scions of the eldest Targaryen branch - only through the female line, but still. And it makes sense that descendants from those branch would be dismissed as lesser claimants because considering them in earnest would mean that the kingship of the Old King would be called into question - most likely an impossible thing in 101 AC when the man had ruled for over fifty years.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Mmm, I hadn't considered Daemon being his great-grandfather. Certainly possible. I suppose it depends on when Corlys had finished his voyaging by (conveniently) that he inherited from his grandsire, because as you've said to me before, he probably wouldn't have done anymore once he became lord. I wonder if perhaps Prince Daemon was named after Lord Daemon, whether he was still alive or not, by Jaehaerys or Baelon ...

It is pretty likely that Prince Daemon was named after the Daemon Velaryons (either the first or the second) just as it seems not unlikely that Daemon Velaryon the Elder was named after Daemion Targaryen.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Yeah that is an interesting one ... Well, we know that Daena wasn't one of Aegon's "nine loves" & (IIRC) there's nothing to suggest there was anything between them after Daemon's birth. If she were still alive I could certainly see her impression of him souring over time & perhaps that (& him knowing so) &/or pressuring Aegon to acknowledge Daemon may have played a part in why he didn't for so long.

 

I'm more inclined to believe that Daena wanted nothing to do with Aegon after she saw through this whole seduction thing. She is most likely not called the Defiant for nothing. I doubt even the Unworthy wanted to provoke her without good reason. And while we have no reason to believe Aegon IV was a good or attentive father the fact remains that Daemon Waters was the very son any royal father would have wanted - and that became apparent from a very early age onwards. Why did Aegon only acknowledge him when the boy was twelve and not, say, when he was six or eight?

If Daena wanted nothing to do with Aegon then he may indeed have waited until she died. Regardless who Daemon's father was if Daena had contradicted Aegon's claim that Daemon was his son (say, instead claiming that Baelor I slipped into the Maidenvault one night to finally consummate their annulled marriage) then his plan might not really have worked. We see a pattern with Aegon that he only acts when the risk at getting caught or his plans not bearing fruit is very low - he only besmirches the honor of his sister-wife and brother when they are both dead.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

And Mariah's "Dornish" influence on Daeron II is said to have been a sour point for his political enemies, even if she perhaps died before the 1st BfR. At least two of her sons still had Valyrian features. Dyanna was ~15 years dead when Maekar took the throne & some of her children at least (& I think Daeron's is "mixed" from his grandmother) had Valyrian features. And Betha seems to have proven herself a rather popular queen (certainly in the early days at least) & some of her children had Valyrian features (not that it mattered as much since say the 3rd BfR).

We have no idea when Mariah died, actually. She could still be alive during the reign of Aerys I for all we know. She is simply never mentioned. I expect her to have died some years before Daeron II but not necessarily many years before his death.

Valyrian looks are confirmed for Aerys I and Maekar I. I guess Rhaegel could have them, too. We'll have to wait and see.

Both Betha's younger sons had Valyrian features. And I imagine Princess Shaera, too, since that would help explain the prototypical Valyrian looks of Aerys II, Rhaella, Rhaegar, Viserys III, Aegon, and Dany.

Princess Rhaelle could easily enough have inherited Betha's black hair as Duncan did. That could help explain why neither Steffon nor his sons show any Valyrian features whatsoever.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I'm going to take the middle ground here. First though, good point on Baelor's power - I'd never considered. For however many that were follies that failed, he did achieve a lot (though most of his successful policies did come with negative side-effects, if often only coming up further in the future instead &/or manipulated by others). There's also him making Lord (probably rather minor, but still) Belgrave wash the ulcerous feet of a leper (seven hells, GRRM needs to give us that story!) showing his direct power of a vassal (& however demeaning, not exactly one that breaks the feudal agreement), & lords & knights from across the realm sending their daughters to the Maidenvault to earn brownie points with him to show the patronage (some) of his vassals sought from him. Though he does get points off for the manner of it & that some of the fathers purely for manipulative purposes & not piety, plus also handy for the lesser Houses of instead of just giving an excess daughter to the Faith; they still can in a way, but here they get to elevate her to a royal companion (however limited). And we know from the likes of Barba Bracken that that sort of king-vassal patronage could bear fruit in other ways after the king's death besides whatever benefits may have come Baelor himself.

Oh, Baelor doesn't need to be sane or smart to exert a lot of power. He just needs to have that power. And that he did. The fact that he could do all his follies with impunity shows what amount of power he actually had.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

The peace with Dorne definitely is down to Baelor, but it certainly helped he had a helpful (if annoyed) super-Hand in Viserys to assist in smoothing the whole thing over. Though Baelor was the new king, the previous one had not long been murdered under a peace banner because he was had been winning the rebellion against him, & then presumably the royalist forces in Dorne were broken & beaten back out of the country. Things wouldn't exactly have been happy between the different parties & yet peace was achieved & held for the rest of Baelor's reign (some would fear going against his piety, but a military commander or vengeance-seeker he was not). If the likes of financial-wizard Viserys weren't on Hand (heh) during this time either, there's the possibility that Baelor's "piety projects" could've financially crippled realm & so civil unrest that perhaps could've threatened the peace. Viserys kept it with his reign (& may have been able to bring Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms had he reigned longer) & his influence on his grandson, Daeron (though Baelor was obviously the greater idol here) helped to stay the threat of the peace during the reign of Aegon IV (though they were lucky his "dragons" failed, but less so when the fleet was scattered & destroyed, particularly if it was carrying Oakenfist). Finally, Daeron (however much too much he allowed the Dornish) was the one who was actually able to solidify the peace by bringing Dorne into the realm.

I guess Prince Viserys was pretty much on board with Baelor's peace idea. It wouldn't have worked had he loathed the idea and secretly tried to sabotage the peace. But then, if his uncle had been against the peace Baelor most likely would have dismissed him and chosen a new Hand.

In fact, I think Viserys wasn't all that happy with or in favor of the stupid Conquest of Dorne thing. He must have known that it would be costly endeavor in any case and not likely be worth the effort. I practically see him suggests the marriage alliance idea to Daeron I, with his nephew dismissing it as cowardice.

Both Daeron II and Prince Maron seem to perceive Baelor the Blessed as the instigator of the peace process they eventually completely. With that in mind we can effectively say that Baelor was the original architect of the peace. Daeron II and Maron just followed where he led.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Viserys was Hand for probably ~15 years before Baelor came to the throne being the face of the dynasty at the forefront of the rebuilding from the Dance & the administrator whilst Daeron spent much of his time at war. During both of these periods Viserys was the one actually playing the role as king far more & had proved himself so far the best Targaryen ruler only behind Jaehaerys I (& that's saying a lot if we're including Velaryons - Alyssa & Corlys) & the best Hand only behind Barth (& that's saying a lot to be above Tyland Lannister, Robar Baratheon & even of course the Sea Snake); & had he lived during there time, I think he could've been even better than both. Viserys obviously had a deep understanding of the Hand-King dynamic & how the relationship should be, & so deferring to Baelor the final say with wise advice both when it was asked for & when his king needed it. I don't think Baelor had intended to actually war with the Iron Islands & the North to bring them "freedom" because he was a peaceable man, but if his Faith-madness had driven him to that point, Viserys did/would've turned him away from it.. Anyway besides understanding the system, Viserys allowed so much ruling freedom to Daeron (not naming himself Regent, allowing him to war) & Baelor (so many ruling things, but also making no power play of any kind against Baelor - even though he'd taken septon vows, which it wouldn't be unfeasible for his uncle to use against him) because they were his nephews & he remembered what the Dance & Regency were like for himself & his brother.

I'm pretty sure Viserys II would have been a great king had he lived. However, there is no reason to believe he did more than quietly manage the Realm while his royal nephews were otherwise occupied. There wouldn't have been much to do back in KL during Daeron's war and as far as we know Baelor was almost always in KL. Sure, when the king was fasting Viserys would have been in charge.

Oh, and I don't think Viserys had a choice in the matter of a Regency when Aegon III died. From what we know about Daeron I the boy had such a charisma that the idea that he could not immediately rule in his own right was just ridiculous.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Especially with Lord Borros dying at the Muddy Mess & the perhaps the chance for better new blood to come, the relationship certainly would've improved in the 25-odd years since the end of the Dance & Daeron I's ascension, particularly after the Daeron the Daring pretenders were over. And again, at least eventually Viserys would be there pushing forward with improving relations between the Crown & its vassals (along with some of them between themselves) in the latter part of his brother's reign. Certainly the Baratheons wouldn't have played as large a role for Daeron as Orys (initially) did for Aegon I in the FDW seeing as Daeron himself led the Boneway host (he was always going to lead one of them though & Lyonel Tyrell most likely the other as Warden of the South) & also more of the realm turned out for the Young Dragon, but they still were the Lord Paramounts of the closest region to Dorne being at the end of both entry points (plus also for the royal ships to resupply & whatnot). I know much of it is only fanon, but in the MUSH the Baratheons have a strong military relationship, especially, with the Crown.

Things could have normalized somewhat by when Daeron II took the throne but hardly to degree that a Baratheon girl would have been eligible to marry into the royal family. In fact, the whole favoritism Daeron II showed to the Dondarrions and Penroses could actually be a hint that the Iron Throne intended to sideline and weaken the Baratheons (by the way, you can also interpret the Old King deciding to marry his daughter Viserra to Lord Manderly - rather than, say, Lord Stark - as the Targaryens intending to weaken the position of the Starks in the North).

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

It'd be interesting to know which side, if any, they favoured between Aegon IV & Prince Daeron (who obviously had a few powerful friends who weren't Martells/Dornish, likely including the Arryns) ... But we do know that they stayed loyal to Daeron II (even if there was any reluctance) & a lot of the Stormlords (considering Daemon's appeal) still seem to have followed them in supporting the Red Dragon.

 

There is this subtle hint that Stormlords were among those of Daeron's friends his father tried to alienate from him with his Dornish war. The idea is that Daeron was friends both with many Dornishmen as well as a couple of Marcher and Stormlords. The Dornish war Aegon tried to wage would have put those people against each other, greatly weakening Daeron's power base. It didn't work.

And I think two of those friends Daeron had in the Stormlands were his cousin Ronnel Penrose and another cousin, the father of Jena Dondarrion. Both men were later rewarded for their loyalty and friendship when Daeron II (then king) married Elaena to Ronnel, Aelinor Penrose to Aerys, and Jena Dondarrion to Baelor.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Both a close or more distant familial link have their merits, but yeah that's a good point on Dunk. And even if Jena was still alive*, Dunk may have only known (if at all) that Baelor was married to some Marcher lord's daughter (Caron, Swann, Selmy, Peake, Tarly, etc besides Dondarrion) or some cousin (thinking she would most likely be a Targ by birth then).

By the way, the other idea for this Targaryen-Dondarrion idea of mine is that this could turn out to be an important explanation as to why the kiss of fire brought Beric back to life and why his blood now has the magical quality to set swords aflame. The idea is that it is unlikely that this works on anybody, and that it only works on people with dragonlord ancestry. The details being that the kiss of fire is one half of the spell while the dragonlord blood in the body of the dead person is the other half. That would also explain why this ritual usually doesn't work the way it did with Beric.

Beric has only very distant dragonlord ancestors, explaining perhaps while things didn't work as well with as they could have. Catelyn also could have Targaryen blood if a Lothston is among her ancestors (not unlikely at all considering that the Tullys often interbred with the Lords of Harrenhal).

Brienne also seems to have Targaryen blood and she also has a Valyrian steel sword. One really wonders what's going to happen if she was imbued with this fire magic and her blood would then interact with the steel of her sword...

I mean, one really asks why the hell it is Dondarrion of all houses. Why not Caron, Swann, or some other Stormland house (if it has to be one of those).

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I'm interested to know how old Matarys was & if the right age, why in-universe (besides meta) he wasn't a page or squire for his father, brother, uncle or cousin - perhaps he served someone else in the royal court not there or was fostered somewhere else.

We have no idea how old he was. Could be that he wasn't martially inclined.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

HAR! Apologies. That's interesting & certainly possible. Though I would lean to Baelon "the Brave" having claimed Vhagar as we know he couldn't have claimed Balerion, who Aemon himself is a possibility to have claimed & then Viserys (likely being forced by his father) to do so after his death. I prefer the thought though that Jaehaerys & Alysanne made a conscious decision for none of their children to claim Balerion so fresh after Maegor's atrocities with him. And also the one that Jaehaerys promised Rhaenys & Corlys that Laena could have first attempt at claiming Vhagar after Baelon's death (& subsequently the Velaryon claim dismissed at the GC).

 

It wouldn't have been that fresh after Maegor. And we should not forget Princess Alyssa in all this. She was Jaehaerys I's eldest surviving child and was thus very likely also a dragonrider.

And considering her importance in the dynastic framework it wouldn't surprise me one bit if she rode either Balerion or Vhagar. In fact, she could easily enough have been the rider of Balerion prior to Viserys because she could have even predeceased Prince Aemon (perhaps dying in childbirth when delivering her third son, the obscure Prince Aegon). The idea that Aemon was riding Balerion before Viserys makes little sense to me because I'm not sure it is likely that Viserys first became a dragonrider at the age 15-16, not to mention that he then would only have ridden the dragon for four years.

My guess is that Jaehaerys' children down to Vaegon (who might be called the Dragonless because no dragon was left for him) all got dragons of their own. If Aegon and Aerys both got hatchlings then it is possible that they passed down to some of the younger children, depending when exactly they died.

Maegelle and Saera most likely got no dragons considering they were supposed to become septas but Viserra may have inherited some dragon. She certainly had the character to become a dragonrider.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I think Rhaena was still alive & riding on Vhagar c.80AC when Jaehaerys & Alysanne made their progress to the North & took six dragons with them. She would've only been 57 & Alysanne likely would've still when she got to that age, & of course Visenya was doing it in her early 70's. That's interesting to consider ... Perhaps Prince Aegon & he say died fighting for Daemon in the Stepstones (there's mention of Rhaenyra's favourite nuncle being Daemon & no hint another would be an Arryn, plus also the Triarchy having experience fighting dragons). Or perhaps wild Princess Viserra if Rhaena did pass earlier. Or perhaps Rhaena had a long life & so there wasn't that long really until Helaena eventually bonded with Dreamfyre.

 

We have no idea when Jaehaerys and Alysanne made their progress to Winterfell, but my guess is that this must have been earlier in their reign - perhaps in the 60s or even the 50s because Alysanne's behavior strongly suggests a youthful curiosity and energy. They would have taken Vermithor and Silverwing with them, with the other four dragons either being the dragons of their children or Rhaena's Dreamfyre (if she accompanied them). Even if we assume that Rhaena was with them we pretty much have to assume that at least three of their children were dragonriders. It is not likely they would have taken riderless dragons with them on a progress.

That whole thing is also at the core of my idea that Aenys I's son Aegon must have had a dragon of his own who eventually died before he took his father's Quicksilver. We know the Targaryens showed off their dragons when they traveled the Realm, and since Aenys I sent Aegon and Rhaena on a progress in his stead to introduce his successor to the people it is very likely that they were not only dragonriders at that point but also taking those dragons with them. The idea is that those dragons were then killed by the Faith Militant during the attack(s) that eventually forced them to take refuge at Crakehall.

I also think it likely that Rhaena originally rode a different dragon because if Dreamfyre was Rhaena's dragon from the beginning she must have been older than Vermithor (which she is not supposed to be according to both TWoIaF and TPatQ). So the idea is that Rhaena lost her dragon (which also explains why she didn't help Aegon against Maegor with her own dragon), went into hiding, and was only given a young hatchling, Dreamfyre, who was no danger to Balerion after she had married Maegor. Maegor needed dragonriders to replace Visenya.

Not to mention that the idea that only Rhaena, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne should have been given dragons while Aenys' two elder sons, Aegon and Viserys, shouldn't have any.

By the way, the fact that Rhaenyra considers Daemon her favorite uncle is perhaps the only hint towards her other uncle, Prince Aegon, we hear mentioned in the text of TRP. That guy most likely was cut out of that text, being some obscure footnote. Aemma was an only child and it doesn't seem likely that Rhaenyra would have been close to any Arryn half-uncles she might have had - especially considering that those must have been dead by the time Jeyne Arryn became Lady of the Vale, anyway.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I prefer the Red Queen only being ridden by the Queen Who Never Was, but Meleys is described as old (& Rhaenys was only 55 when she died, not that old if she was her hatchling) & was said to be the only possible contender (with superior rider than Aemond, Rhaenys, at the reins) besides Daemon & Caraxes to have any kind of half-decent shot to take down Vhagar. And Alyssa would be a very apt predecessor. Idk where Meleys would get her pre-Dance battle experience if it wasn't with Rhaenys say with her father in 92AC &/or later in the Stepstones. I suppose Rhaenys might not have claimed her until later, but she was almost certainly a dragonrider by the time Laenor was by 101AC & highly likely to have been much earlier as the heir of the Prince of Dragonstone (& rather fearless besides). Do we know if a person can claim another dragon after their previous one had died? It sounds like Viserys could've tried but perhaps it was an unknown then & assumed he could though (very likely they'd know from their days in the Valyria though, unless dragons lived far longer before the Doom). I'm not sure if Rhaena's very quickly dead hatchling before Morning counts ...

I once asked George on his NAB prior to the release of TRP about Viserys I's dragon (the idea that the king of all people should be dragonless was very odd to me and I still don't like that all that much - the idea of Viserys I's death creating another large riderless dragon in KL could have been a fine addition to the story of the Dance) and he then revealed, before TRP came out, that Viserys was the last rider of Balerion and that he chose to claim no other dragon thereafter, effectively confirming that dragonriders can mount new dragons after the previous one has died.

Rhaenyra also believes she and Aegon can become dragonriders again after she hatches more dragon eggs on Dragonstone after her return. That's her main reason to go there, suggesting that the Targaryens believed they could do this. After all, both Rhaenyra and Aegon the Younger had been dragonriders before their mounts died.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

True that, good points. Aegon could've easily been a teen & died in some stupid act perhaps involving dragon/s or just something more natural. Or perhaps he was a little younger, but not much so, & tried to claim Vhagar or Balerion who didn't respond well - or perhaps even a wild one like the Cannibal or Sheepstealer. I lean towards Aegon dying young before he could be betrothed & so Jocelyn was specifically matched to Aemon the heir, because of how much influence Alyssa had in the Targaryen dynasty for decades. But yes, it certainly does make a lot of sense also that Aegon & Alyssa would be betrothed (& if so, another reason why Jocelyn could be matched to Aemon if there was a sizeable gap back to Daella &/or if she herself was betrothed early to Rodrik for the Arryns' loyalty & also lose of Ronnel, etc). Being "Dragonless", obviously a smart cookie, & having politically-savvy parents who didn't need so many heirs; Vaegon probably would've ended up at the Citadel (or Faith at worst) anyway. Considering Jaehaerys & Alysanne's political motivations against the Starks (& some of their vassals) with what they did for the NW, I wonder if one out of Aeryn, Valerion or Gaemon (presuming they also had no dragon) may have even been encouraged to go to the Wall to show their further commitment to that cause ...

What we know about the marriage custom in the Conqueror's day makes it indeed very odd that the eldest daughter should be married to younger son. Thus the Aemon-Jocelyn match is very odd. An explanation could indeed be that Alyssa and Aegon were first betrothed to each other and Alyssa's later marriage to Baelon was just a way to reshuffle things.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Yeah, that's a well-reasoned & logical alternative. If it's not that (I suppose a younger/est daughter of Rhaena & Garmund, depending on the timeline, may have been possible, but rather unlikely at best) or keeping himself free to seal/reward the peace, then it makes virtually no sense that he wouldn't marry Daena (unless one of his other sisters) because he would still have Baelor, two sisters, even Viserys if need be, &/or little Daeron to use for political marriages if he wanted to.

 

Exactly, not to mention that the usual way of things seems to be to marry the eldest son to the eldest daughter.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Very true, though GRRM could be saving it for D&E or Fire & Blood (whoever Jena's parents were, we both think there's a blood connection somehow to Baelor, hence presumably why GRRM is saving it for at least Aelinor too). If Ronnel Penrose was descended from Baela & Alyn, that could've easily been included ...

Well, Ran has told us that some of George's family tree merge with other family trees, so it is not unlikely that something like that is happening with the Targaryen family tree and those five Targaryen-Hightower girls.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Nice work. I could see that being the case, but why would Joy possibly be Michael's daughter? Sure they married "not long after" Ronnel's death (which could've been soon before the 1st BfR to still fit Ronnel not being the Lord Penrose as is required & Elaena could've married Michael soon after). but I think if Elaena had another Viserys-episode or anything similar (even with Joy being so far down the succession) that there would've been some hint of it.

 

Isn't there a hint that Elaena and Michael might have been lovers before they married?

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

 

Possible, but I have a hard time imagining a 4-7 year old claiming Vhagar (who may sense a scared kid, terrified mother, &/or angry/impatient step-father), even (geez, especially) under duress. Aemond was already 10, & quite the brash one at that, when he claimed Vhagar & he forgot to be scared because he was in a rush because of Joffrey & so the adrenaline would've already been pumping.

 

Well, we don't know what exactly happens when a dragon really likes you. Considering how insane Aemond and Vhagar are it is not completely out of place that even a younger girl could bond with a huge dragon. The Targaryens are bred for this kind of thing, after all. And Rhaenyra and Laenor became dragonriders at about the same age, not to mention that Prince Aenys bonded with his Quicksilver even at an earlier age.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

You mean this?

Aegon V had married for love, taking to wife the Lady Betha Blackwood, the spirited (some say willful) daughter of the Lord of Raventree Hall, who became known as Black Betha for her dark eyes and raven hair. When they wed, in 220 AC, the bride was nineteen and Aegon twenty, so far down in the line of succession that the match provoked no opposition. (The World of Ice & Fire, Aegon V)

I'm pretty sure Alysanne Blackwood would've been called Black Aly for the same thing. And no, Yandel doesn't mention "blood" specifically, it's only an inference. A fair one, but that doesn't rule it out be something else entirely (though unlikely, if just given his brothers' & cousins' marriages) or in conjunction with that.

It must have been the blood. Bloodraven was the Hand at that time, so politics clearly couldn't have been an issue. A Targaryen-Blackwood match should never be more easy and less controversial than when a Blackwood-Targaryen was Hand of the King and the king's own uncle.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

How have the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, Durrandons/Baratheons of Storm's End, Starks of Winterfell, etc etc seemingly retained the same House-specific "looks" in some members (at least) for centuries, if not, millenia? I suspect something to do with magic pertaining to their seats - whether it's the weirwood heart tree, being essentially a giant gold nugget, be it magic (GEotD imo for SE) used in its construction, be it hot springs, be it magical blood from the Dawn Age/AoH (from the CotF?), etc etc. Whatever the case, something of a magical nature has ensured the retaining of House-specific genetics for so long past all logical reason IRL (& that's even with the amount of noble in-breeding). Dawn (i.e. dragonsteel imo, possibly original Lightbringer) is obviously magical af, perhaps Starfall itself is too especially as it was supposedly built on the same meteorite.

 

There are some magical lineages, yes, Gardeners, Lannisters, Durrandon-Baratheons, and so forth, yet it is easily enough believable that they could retain their looks through a lot of cousin marriages. Especially in the case of the numerous branches of House Lannister this should have been comparatively easy.

The Stark look might also have been retained by constant cousin marriages among various Starkish First Men lines in the North.

We don't have to be looks remaining unchanged for millennia for some magical reasons.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Who says that Valyrian blood is "recessive" to so much? By our genetics, Dany should only have a tiny fraction of Aegon & Rhaenys' blood left, but she still has the Valyrian features, had a part in hatching the eggs & is a dragonrider (if new to it). I think the Valyrians more did it for their own superiority & to retain their ability to control dragons through their magical bloodlines. The reason I think why Dany specifically can do it (& also why Jon is likely TPtwP, or one/one part of anyway) & not Targs a century or so ago is because of her Valyrian blood, Dayne blood (GEotD, proto-Valyrians) & Blackwood blood (First Men, CotF ancestry going back). GRRM could've chosen any two Houses for those of Dany's great-grandmother & great-great-grandmother (of course made even stronger by previous generations of tradition & prophecy-fueled incest) & yet he choose such unique ones.

It seems to me that Jaehaerys II and Shaera carry - due to some fateful/freak accident or divine providence - their Valyrian heritage and the Targaryen genes in a very undiluted form. Jaehaerys II seems to have been a half-monstrosity, after all, and his children and grandchildren all embody the best and the worst House Targaryen has to offer.

Every hints we have is that the special Valyrian looks are not very stable. People with Valyrian traits have to be bred in Lys, and so forth. If they would remain for generations one would not have to bred them. And we know that half-Targaryens more often than do not inherit all of the Valyrian traits.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

A king who didn't put her aside because he loved another woman, or because she couldn't bear children, or she had been unfaithful, or anything. Sure, Daena was Defiant, but Baelor didn't even consummate the marriage. Would she have had a bastard son if he had of "closed his eyes & fucked her", or married her off to someone else, or you know not imprison her?! Probably not. And even if she did & was unattached, it's a minor political scandal at worst, probably only gossip for the court & the commons. Baelor, however unwittingly, pretty much set-up everything up for Daena to be defiant (& so the Blackfyre Rebellions in a way). But no instead of blaming himself he prays for her soul & thankfully kills himself in the process before he could do even more damaging & batshit-insane "acts of piety".

Sure, but she had been humiliated in this whole affair, and she even fathered a bastard whose father remained unknown. That doesn't make her a very desirable bride. Just look whom Elaena was forced to marry. Some old guy who died in the wedding night.

On 21.11.2016 at 6:44 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Most certainly. Their GEotD ancestry giving (some of) them Valyrian-like feature/s is just one more thing to add to that list. As I said in my last reply to Paxter (on top of what I said to you about Alicent), such helps to explain the Hightowers' involvements with the Targs during the first half of the royal dynasty. And I have more thoughst on Lord Jon Hightower with Serenei of Lys for Aegon IV, but that's not GEotD-related.

 

I really don't think you have to go with the GEotD stuff there. It could just be some proto-Valyrians from the Lands of the Long Summer.

More later ;-).

 

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19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ran has said that George told them that the masters of the North are supposed to be roughly analogous to the landed knights of the South.

What are you talking about? You don't have to be a knight to be a lord. But one would assume you have to be a knight to be a landed knight.

In a literal sense, yes. Which is why it´s inconvenient to talk about "landed knights and masters" when masters are few in number.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps you can inherit the lands of a landed knight when you are a non-knight male or a woman but don't retain all the rights and privileges you would have as a landed knight. After all, we know from George that landed knights are a special rank in the feudal hierarchy of Westeros.

Do masters lack any rights and privileges that landed knights have?

Members of Parliament representing counties are called "Knights of the Shire"... yet they are not actually required to be knights, and esquires also qualify.

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On 21-11-2016 at 2:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

It seems Dragonstone was a vital Targaryen seat during the early days (or rather throughout the Targaryen reign, basically). Thus it is not unlikely that Aemon had a permanent seat on Driftmark. We don't know how qualified the man was to rule - Baelon is called 'the Brave' but Aemon didn't get some special name.

Do you mean Dragonstone?

On 21-11-2016 at 2:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

If Vhagar was on Dragonstone when Aemon died Princess Rhaenys could have taken her to Driftmark after she left to permanently live with Corlys. Or she could have flown to Dragonstone to get Vhagar. We know this works when the dragons get along with other dragonriders/dragons (e.g. Daemon taking both Caraxes and Vhagar across the Narrow Sea).

Hell, Rhaenys (and Corlys) could even have been with Aemon when he died. After all, there are some hints that Rhaenys was an experienced dragonrider and no stranger to battle.

Prince Aemon died on Tarth, not the Stepstones. If he did not ride Vhagar then there is a chance that his dragon died with him. But he could also have died in some conventional battle or perhaps due to some assassination (say, during a negotiation, or something of that sort).

Oops, my bad. 

Agreed on Rhaenys possibly having been with Aemon when he died.

 

On 21-11-2016 at 2:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

What we can reasonably exclude is the possibility that Rhaenys inherited Meleys from her father because she is confirmed to have been a dragonrider longer than anybody else by the time of the Dance, and at least Prince Daemon would already have had his Caraxes back in 92 AC.

Why would Daemon already have had Caraxes in 92 AC? I get that he was already 11 at the time, and that it is likelythat a dragon had been claimed prior to that age (as we've seen multiple Targaryens claiming a dragon at a younger age), but is there anything that confirms that Daemon had already claimed Caraxes by then?

 

On 21-11-2016 at 2:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

There would have been princesses who could have tried. Maegelle was still alive, although a septa. Gael lived another eight years. Viserra might have still been alive. Even Archmaester Vaegon might have still been around.

Considering that maester's are supposed to give up their family names, I doubt that Vaegon claiming a dragon would sit well with the Citadel.

 

On 21-11-2016 at 2:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

You know how bad I am with keeping track of this kind of thing. I remember that LionoftheWest was also part of that discussion. Perhaps he remembers the whole thing?

Ran suddenly decided to intervene when we were discussing Corlys' fate after Rhaenyra imprisoned him and who freed him from the dungeon (Aegon II or Trystane Truefyre?). He felt they had cut too much from the story there, explaining that Aegon II needed Corlys' fleet for his war and thus was forced to pardon him and take him into his council. Yet Corlys only did that under the condition that Aegon the Younger's life be spared and he be betrothed to Jaehaera who were then were named co-heirs of Aegon II (much against Alicent's will).

What little information we have on the wedding of Aegon III suggests that happened immediately after his proclamation as king, presumably as part or Corlys' peace agenda. By formally uniting the two branches any reason to continue the war was basically over.

I think I already found it!

 

On 21-11-2016 at 2:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

We can reasonably assume that this was only temporal solution for Aegon II and Alicent (who would have speculated to overturn this decision as soon as the war was over and the old man dead) considering that Aegon II intended to marry a Baratheon girl who might have given him sons.

Possibly. House Baratheon was among Aegon's most important supporters during the war, so Aegon III becomming Aegon II's heir is likely to have been "only until such a time as sons are born to King Aegon II himself".

However, I do wonder, as Ran's post stated "[...] and Aegon and Jaehaera were declared heirs".. Through who would the succesion go, exactly?  

 

On 21-11-2016 at 2:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

Vice versa, I'm also inclined to believe that Corlys never truly was in the Green camp - after all, both his wife and son had died fighting for Rhaenyra. He wanted to restore peace to the Realm and one Aegon II became the major obstacle to peace he finally had enough people at court on his side to assassinate him.

Agreed on the bolded. Especially considering that Corlys forced Aegon III not to execute Aegon III, a ploy of 'joining Aegon III as to ensure he could see an end to the struggle with as few casualties as possibe' would also explain why he was allowed to keep a high position at court during the early reign of Aegon III. 

 

On 21-11-2016 at 2:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

Definitely. But it was Daeron I who married Baelor to Daena. And it is odd that the king would arrange a betrothed for his second son but not his eldest son and heir.

Baelor and Daena married in 160 AC, so it is not likely that the war had much to do with that. Could have been in the short time before the rebellion in Dorne began and Daeron I had to return to the war. It is just odd that he would not marry himself without good reason and give his eldest younger sister to his brother rather than claiming her himself.

Why wouldn't the war have played a role? The rebellion began in 160 AC again, and there is no way to tell which occurred first (the death of Lord Tyrell, or the marriage of Baelor and Daena). So it is at least a possibility.

It is also interesting to note that, if it hadn't been Daeron I who betrothed Baelor and Daena, but Aegon III, Daeron apparently had no intention to break that betrothal either.

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3 hours ago, Jaak said:

In a literal sense, yes. Which is why it´s inconvenient to talk about "landed knights and masters" when masters are few in number.

Do masters lack any rights and privileges that landed knights have?

I'm not sure why masters should have the same restrictions insofar as rights and privileges are concerned as landed knights are. The title of master would have a completely different origin than landed knight. For instance, the Glovers are not likely to send their smallfolk to Winterfell or some other lordly castle for trial. If they were truly equivalent to landed knights they would lack the right of pits and gallows.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Members of Parliament representing counties are called "Knights of the Shire"... yet they are not actually required to be knights, and esquires also qualify.

Westeros doesn't have a parliament and is not as complex as the real world.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Do you mean Dragonstone?

Yeah, my mistake.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Why would Daemon already have had Caraxes in 92 AC? I get that he was already 11 at the time, and that it is likelythat a dragon had been claimed prior to that age (as we've seen multiple Targaryens claiming a dragon at a younger age), but is there anything that confirms that Daemon had already claimed Caraxes by then?

No, there isn't but it is more the fact that I don't find it very likely Rhaenys only took Meleys after her father's death. She is a couple of years older than Daemon. Even if Caraxes had a rider prior to Daemon I'm inclined to believe that he could have taken him as a young boy.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Considering that maester's are supposed to give up their family names, I doubt that Vaegon claiming a dragon would sit well with the Citadel.

Sure, the point was just Jaehaerys I still had children who could have claimed Vhagar in place of Laena.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

House Baratheon was among Aegon's most important supporters during the war, so Aegon III becomming Aegon II's heir is likely to have been "only until such a time as sons are born to King Aegon II himself".

One should think so. But then, back in 105 AC Viserys I didn't include such a clause when he named Rhaenyra his heir so perhaps Aegon II would have forgotten that, too. My idea is more that they Aegon II and Alicent would have bided their time until Corlys was either no longer needed or dead, and then they would have quietly poisoned Aegon the Younger to remove him from the board. That way they wouldn't even have to revoke the decree naming him heir. I'm pretty sure both of them didn't give a damn about the security of the Realm after their own death. But they would have made sure that none of Rhaenyra's get would ever sit the Iron Throne.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

However, I do wonder, as Ran's post stated "[...] and Aegon and Jaehaera were declared heirs".. Through who would the succesion go, exactly?  

It could have been some sort of official co-monarchy. That kind of thing could have worked. Aegon II and Alicent technically should have preferred Jaehaera as Queen Regnant, making her nominally the stronger party of the couple, but even if they did then Jaehaera's mental state would have made any scenario in which she was a Queen Regnant a joke. Her consort, Hand, or council would have ruled in her name, with her being nothing but a puppet.

In addition, those Greens who stood with Aegon II because they did not want a Queen Regnant would have inevitably favored and gravitated to Aegon III in such a scenario, simply because of his gender.

In the end, the only hope Aegon II had to resolve this situation would have been to father new sons.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Agreed on the bolded. Especially considering that Corlys forced Aegon II not to execute Aegon III, a ploy of 'joining Aegon III as to ensure he could see an end to the struggle with as few casualties as possibe' would also explain why he was allowed to keep a high position at court during the early reign of Aegon III. 

Well, he was also well-connected to the king and his half-sisters and seems to have been at the core of the whole peace process. We have to keep in mind that in the end it was a violent coup. Aegon II was killed, and Alicent was imprisoned. Aegon III was crowned king, and Jaehaera did not become his co-ruler, not even nominally. Things might have turned out differently if the Greens had won in the field against the Riverlords and the Northmen and Aegon II had shortly died thereafter, or natural causes. Then Alicent and Borros (if he lived) and other Greens would have dominated the Regency with Jaehaera serving as the figurehead, and not Aegon the Younger. 

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Why wouldn't the war have played a role? The rebellion began in 160 AC again, and there is no way to tell which occurred first (the death of Lord Tyrell, or the marriage of Baelor and Daena). So it is at least a possibility.

I meant that Daeron I himself could have married and fathered a child during the short time he was back at home after the war was seemingly over. Since we Daeron I conducted the Baelor-Daena match I think we have to assume Daeron I was there to see it through. I'm not sure Viserys could have forced his nephew Baelor to go through with a marriage he did not like all that much in the king's absence.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

It is also interesting to note that, if it hadn't been Daeron I who betrothed Baelor and Daena, but Aegon III, Daeron apparently had no intention to break that betrothal either.

Sure, why should he?

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Westeros doesn't have a parliament and is not as complex as the real world.

And?

The underlying attitude - that knighthood was socially preferrable but not a strict legal requirement, and that non-knights could legally fill the roles of knight with only some social embarrassment - was a widespread even if not universal one in medieval Europe. There is no strong evidence that it is not shared by Westeros, and quite some evidence that it is.

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53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One should think so. But then, back in 105 AC Viserys I didn't include such a clause when he named Rhaenyra his heir so perhaps Aegon II would have forgotten that, too. My idea is more that they Aegon II and Alicent would have bided their time until Corlys was either no longer needed or dead, and then they would have quietly poisoned Aegon the Younger to remove him from the board. That way they wouldn't even have to revoke the decree naming him heir. I'm pretty sure both of them didn't give a damn about the security of the Realm after their own death. But they would have made sure that none of Rhaenyra's get would ever sit the Iron Throne.

But Viserys intended for Rhaenyra to follow him no matter how many children he fathered. That's why she was specifically named Princess of Dragonstone, and had so many lords swear to defend her rights. So why should he have believed a clause to be necessary?

 

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It could have been some sort of official co-monarchy. That kind of thing could have worked. Aegon II and Alicent technically should have preferred Jaehaera as Queen Regnant, making her nominally the stronger party of the couple, but even if they did then Jaehaera's mental state would have made any scenario in which she was a Queen Regnant a joke. Her consort, Hand, or council would have ruled in her name, with her being nothing but a puppet.

In addition, those Greens who stood with Aegon II because they did not want a Queen Regnant would have inevitably favored and gravitated to Aegon III in such a scenario, simply because of his gender.

In the end, the only hope Aegon II had to resolve this situation would have been to father new sons.

But even then, if he had fathered sons and Aegon the Younger had suddenly died, Jaehaera would still remain as his heir. So either he would have to marry his eldest son to Jaehaera, or have included a statement in making Jaehaera his heir that voids her rights to the Iron Throne once Aegon fathers a son, I think.

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