Speculation - Cannons in Old Town? *Book spoilers*

[Davjos]

I've recently watched a short youtube video about the dragons in ASOIAF and how they inhibit the progress in the Westerosi society and keep the world in a feudal, medieval state (approx. 10.000 years). The youtuber pointed at the lack of cannons as the cause for this constant Medieval Era and stated that the dragons took away the need for cannons. 

Here's a link to the vid if you're interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDdKmx0PW7s

 

This video, combined with my fascination for the Hightowers of Old Town, gave me some inspiration. Cannons are not that difficult to invent, nor to develop. In it's most basic form you would need: (btw, I'm in no way a historian, nor do I have any prior, extensive knowledge on cannons and firearms)
- a projectile

- combustion

- a strong 'canister'.

I was tossing the idea/fantasie around of the Hightowers developing cannons and would love to hear if you like it.

 

Could cannons exist in Westeros

As the people of Westeros can make and use steel, the only missing component for a cannon is the combustion, the propellant. The first thing that comes to mind is using Wildfire. In ACOK Wildfire is described as exploding/being able to explode. Such an explosion could be used as a propellant. Also, Wildfire is highly volatile, but not very reactive. It needs heat to ignite, although very low heat is enough. The biggest problem however is we know that Wildfire seeps into steel, as Thoros of Myr uses it on his swords, and ruins them doing so. So Wildfire is a possibility, and an easy one, but perhaps not the most interesting and effective one.

 

As we know we used gunpowder for our cannons. Earliest gunpowder was made up of salpeter(KNO₃ - Potassium Nitrate), charcoal and sulfur. It is very possible that these things exist in the WOIAF. I always smell sulfur when I think of the Smoking Sea and volcanoes. Salpeter is the most important element of gunpowder. It's found in nature, most in the form of bat guano (dried up shit). Again, it doesn't seem to far fetched for salpeter to exist in this world. Honestly, gunpowder is not that difficult to make. 

 

Another option is GRRM making an alternative to gunpowder from Westerosi 'elements', perhaps linked to the Doom of Valyria.

 

My fourth, least liked and least thought through option is magic. Ofcourse magic can cause explosions.

 

Without going to much into details, I think it's not a big leap for a scientifically and magically advanced world as Westeros/Essos to develop an explosive powder with enough force to propel an object. Their society seems to have surpassed our Middle-Ages. For instance: the cities in Essos are a lot bigger than medieval cities in our world, they have some knowledge of surgery etc. 

Why would the Hightowers develop cannons. No TWOW read!!

Firstly, they need them. They are a trading, seafaring people(cannons and ships are a great combination). They have many people to defend in a big city, have an almost unrealistically small fleet (Redwynes is bigger for instance). And the Ironborn will soon knock on their door. They need to defend their city against a navy.
The need for cannons in Westeros in general is pretty big. With massive castles like Winterfell and Storm's End, that can survive sieges for years, the cannons are THE necessary equipment for non-dragon riders to bring about the destruction of Harrenhal and 'kick them out of their castles'

 

Secondly, they have the money. The Hightowers are in my eyes the second richest house in Westeros, with only the Lannisters having more gold. This type of serious cash allows experimentation, developments and innovation and mass production. 

Thirdly, Oldtown is the centre of knowledge in the west. All the maesters train there. The Citadel seems like a place where these discoveries are made, especially with their hatred/fear of dragons.

And finally we have some crazy old man named Lord Leyton Hightower in a tower dabbling in the secrets of magic. 

 

To summarize. The Hightowers have motive, also considering they're not powerful enough for a House of their military strength and wealth. I know they don't like fighting wars, but they do want to defend themselves. They also have the financial means, the scientific or the magical knowledge. So what do you think? I can see Euron getting annihilated by primitive cannons, thousands of ships sinking, Oldtown standing strong and our dear friend Sam the Slayer making them focus North, for the good of the realm(maybe, perhaps haha).

Anyway, hope you liked this post. No real theories, but wanted to share my thoughts with you. Also, first time posting so please be gentle. 

 

[Snowmelter]

Interesting post.  I don't think that Martin will introduce gunpowder, however, because, as you mentioned, it would make castles obsolete.  I don't think it would fit the flavor of the setting of Westeros.  Essos, though, perhaps.

 

[Fencer]

36 minutes ago, Ethelarion said:

Cannons are not that difficult to invent, nor to develop

I think you are vastly underestimating the development process.  Consider that saltpeter, sulfur and charcoal were around long before man walked the earth, but it took thousands of years for them to be properly combined to make something useful.  It is not the existence of the requisite materials that is an issue, but the intentional fine mixing of them in the proper proportions to make something that is useful that poses a challenge.

Further, in the real world, those few cultures with the knowledge to make gunpowder didn't truly weaponize if for centuries.  And other cultures, while they may have been aware of its existence, were not able to tease the process of manufacture out of those who controlled it.  Additionally, in general, Westeros doesn't seem to have the intellectual curiosity that has often served as a tool to drive our world forward in the fits and starts that it has had; yes, there are measters, but many of them seem more interested in historical pursuits and the status quo than innovation.

All that said, it could be in interesting development, were Martin to include it.  Interestingly, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series did address this, and some of the impact that it had on changing warfare.

[Davjos]

Thanks for responding!

2 hours ago, Fencer said:

I think you are vastly underestimating the development process.  Consider that saltpeter, sulfur and charcoal were around long before man walked the earth, but it took thousands of years for them to be properly combined to make something useful.  It is not the existence of the requisite materials that is an issue, but the intentional fine mixing of them in the proper proportions to make something that is useful that poses a challenge.

Further, in the real world, those few cultures with the knowledge to make gunpowder didn't truly weaponize if for centuries.  And other cultures, while they may have been aware of its existence, were not able to tease the process of manufacture out of those who controlled it. 

  

I do agree with you that the fact they might make it doesn't mean they will make it and weaponize it. To counter this point: the first found chemical formula for gunpowder is only 200 years older than the first fire-lance, and cannons weren't far behind. 

The proportions aren't that important either. 50% salpeter is flammable, 75% is explosive. It's not a matter of getting it spot on to get a result

 

2 hours ago, Fencer said:

Additionally, in general, Westeros doesn't seem to have the intellectual curiosity that has often served as a tool to drive our world forward in the fits and starts that it has had; yes, there are measters, but many of them seem more interested in historical pursuits and the status quo than innovation.

 

 

I don't agree with you. For instance: they manufacture Wildfire, a process more lengthy and more precise than creating gunpowder (if you for instance don't add enough salpeter, gunpowder isn't explosive but still burns). This process is more complex than creating gunpowder. Also, their architecture, shipbuilding, farming etc. all is/seems more advances. To support a city of 500.000 (KL) with the small Crownlands is a feat of it's own. (To put into perspective, around 1500 Moscow had a pop. of 200.000.) Some poisons also seem very complex concoctions. 

Also, since Asshai is basically China it might come from there. 

But I don't expect it to come into action. I just would love if 10 southern dromonds, armed with cannons, would annihilate Pyke. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Nerdwriter! I like that guy's videos. Nice to see he embarked on GoT too.

[Wat The Second]

15 hours ago, Snowmelter said:

Interesting post.  I don't think that Martin will introduce gunpowder, however, because, as you mentioned, it would make castles obsolete.  I don't think it would fit the flavor of the setting of Westeros.  Essos, though, perhaps.

 

I think that will be the very point. The way things are going in Westeros is unsustainable. The latest wars will make everyone sick of kings and lords, especially when the white walkers come barging in and the kings and lords can't protect their people. With the Wildlings coming south with ideas of freedom, the Martells scheming for some gender equality in Westeros, Tyrion's inventive mind, Dany coming over with dragons and thoughts of change, much like Aegon V,  and Jon being able to see the bigger picture and sympathize with the small folk - I think we have all the ingredients for a complete revolution of Westeros, and a needed one.

I subscribe to the idea that by the end magic will be gone as well as dragons and the remnants of the old like the giant unbreakable castles or the Wall it's self and gunpowder may be one of the needed ingredients for this revolution. I'll be very surprised if the Iron Throne is still standing by the end.

[Maester of Valyria]

If gunpowder is going to make an appearance, my money is on it coming from the Far East, either Yi Ti (China-equivalent + magic) or from Asshai (lots of magic, volcanoes, and possibly forgotten technology).

However it may make sense for the Citadel to have imported a supply of gunpowder/the recipe for it. I don't think it'll play a huge role in the series though, because introducing gunpowder weaponry with so little warning would cheapen the storyline and detract from the 'medieval' feel of the series.

[John Doe]

That would be amazing. Everyone expects they were inventing some sort of magic in the past ten years in the tower, while they just worked on gun powder the whole time.

[Light a wight tonight]

Just an observation: "gunpowder" was around way before guns were. The Chinese used it in rockets and perhaps bombs.

As to hitting a dragon with a cannonball, primitive cannon were not super accurate, and not notably useful on moving targets. "Sit right there, Smaug, while I fire and load three or four times trying to kill you."