Them Bones (rethinking Ned's Bones, Hallis Mollen and Silent Sisters)

[sweetsunray]

Jon's dream about Ygritte in the godswood of Winterfell can be seen as a hint to Jon that his father's bones ended up misplaced or misidentified because of Maidenpool.

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When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father's face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn't, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained, and the pool bubbled thick and red.(aSoS, Jon VI)

On the one hand the dream places Ned's spirit in the weirwood, and surviving. And then we have a "maiden" (as in "young woman") in a "pool" dissolving until only skull and bones are left. So, Ned Stark, Maidenpool, and skull and bones.

[sweetsunray]

For those interested in the mythological stuff in relation to these dangerous Riverland Gates: here you can read the full version of Them Bones

I give some background on The Book of Two Ways, Book of Gates and show how the Twins, Whispering Woods and Oldstones are portrayed as one of the gates of the ancient Egyptian Land of Rosdau.

[Julia H.]

@sweetsunray Amazing, as usual. What an essay to read just today!

Speaking of Ned's spirit roaming free and the previous Kings of Winter being now unrestrained by the swords, it seems very much like fate that all this happens when apparently there is no Stark in Winterfell. Could it be that the dead Kings  / Lords of Winterfell may / must fulfill this role in the absence of living Starks? In this case, the failure to bury Ned and the removal of some of the swords from the crypts may only help the inevitable to happen - because there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. When there is no Stark in Winterfell, the whole kingdom is in turmoil and at war, which prevents the proper burial of the last ruler. When the last Starks in Winterfell (Bran and Rickon) have to run away secretly, they take some of the swords from the crypts, thus unknowingly (but doing the right thing) they leave the castle and the realm in the care of the spirits of the dead.  

Your essay also implies that Robb's spirit must be out there somewhere, too, as he probably wasn't buried either, and there is certainly no sword to guard his spirit. His last words (Grey Wind) indicate that he embraced his magical - Stark - nature in the last moment. He may have warged Grey Wind then and perhaps he suffered death twice that night, with no burial or sword or statue. I wonder if we will hear about anyone encountering his spirit, which must be a very angry spirit now... It also makes me wonder whether Jon's "Lord of Winterfell" dream (in which he kills a dead Robb and shouts "I am the Lord of Winterfell!") may have a layer of meaning that suggests that Winterfell will have to be taken back from the dead as well as from the Boltons. Of course, I'm not thinking of a sword fight, but perhaps a kind of ritualistic rebirth will be necessary before the castle can truly be ruled by the living Starks again.

[sweetsunray]

@Julia H. Thanks Yes, that is indeed the unformulated idea.. Robb's spirit is out there somewhere. He too was a ruler of WF, and his spirit is somewhere.

In the long version of this essay, where I go in depth into the gateways and how especially the Twins even architecturually matches 9 of the 12 gateways of the Land of Rosdau. In ancient Egypt, they came to believe at some point that every dead soul could try to achieve Osiris' status of resurrection in the underworld (including commoners). Pharaohs could choose to go to the stars or sit with Osiris. Everybody else could try for Osiris. But to get there you had to pass through dangerous nightlands of former enshrined rulers and gods and snakes and lizards, monkeys with knives, etc, and of course the weighing of the heart against truth (Ma'at, the feather). These lands were called Land of Rosdau, and Rosdau means Necropolis. If a soul died there, then he died a second death. We know of this because of coffin drawings and texts of men buried, who were rich, but not pharaohs. Those texts were like a cheater's guide, including maps, how to navigate the Land of Rosdau and how to deal with the dangers. That cheater guide of coffin drawings and texts is called the Book of Two Ways (you could go overland, or follow river routes).

Then you have the Book of Gates, which tells Ra's nightly journey from West to East after sunset and before sunrise. Each night he had to conquer 12 gates, one for each hour of the night, and you had 12 maidens who belonged to an hour and thus a gate. In the Book of Two Ways you only need to do 7 gates. The difference is the purpose of two books. Ra's journey is meant to escape the land of the dead and live another day, and thus beyond Osiris. In the Two Ways you only need to get as far as Osiris, because you're dead already.

The identifiable gateways I'm certain of are Moat Cailin, Twins, Oldstones, Fairmarket, Whispering Woods and Maidenpool. Not sure of the 7th yet, but I'm thinking the Ruby Ford combined with Darry. Whispering Woods is the first gate in the West where the sun sets and dips into the nightlands, as well as the second gate with the leaves. The Twins architecturally fits the 3rd gate and beyond: 2 walls with swords on top, a corridor between them where Ra's barge is carried by a procession compared to a snake, usually a pool of water in the middle (water tower), water green of herbs (Green Fork, named after what flows into the river from the Neck), and boiling (a word that Walder Frey loves to use, and the Green Fork is boiling when Robb and Cat arrive for the Red Wedding), and Walder Frey introduces us to 12 maidens (one for each hour). Oldstones compares to the gateway where the heart is weighed, as two Freys get judged and hanged there, and the commoner Tom O' Sevens sits on King Tristifer's tomb (even a commoner can get to sit with Osiris). And all these gateways are associated with maidens. As @Daendrew pointed out, Cailin means 'girl' or 'maiden' in Irish Gaelic. Cateline is the French version of Cailin. So Catelyn is actually named 'maiden'. She supervizes the Battle of Whispering Woods, is the one to whom Jaime is brought to and who decides to put him in chains and a cell. Oldstones => Jenny of Oldstones. Fairmarket => Megette. Twins => the 12 spurned maidens, and weeping Roslin. Maidenpool => Jonquil and her sisters.

Now, you can also follow the order of appearance in the books, for Robb:

• Moat Cailin, 1st gate for Robb. Since there is a living Stark at WF, this is under his own control, so he can safely pass through.
• Twins, 2nd gate for Robb. By negotiation he can get it opened and Walder Frey becomes a benefactor as he gives him 2000 soldiers.
• Whispering Woods: 3rd gate for Robb, but 1ste gate for Jaime - the sun who enters the nightlands through the valley and already ends up captured there (Ra fails)
• Whispering Woods (again): 4th gate for Robb,passable but indicative that the way is choking up
• Fairmarket: 5th gate, cannot cross, as there is no crossing anymore, but passed it in safety
• Oldstones: 6th gate, cannot cross, as there is no crossing anymore, bu passed it in safety
• Twins: 7th gate, dies, as the Lord of the Crossing has become his enemy.

While Robb died, Oldstones was his 6th gate, and he visited Tristifer's tomb, the Hammer of Justice. So, I think we can consider him as having the Osiris status. He's dead, but he has an afterlife. If Fairmarket and Oldstones don't count because they weren't crossed, then the Twins was the 5th gate, and then he did not reach Osiris's status.But I'm inclined to think they count. The merging of Grey Wind on Robb's body, it practically makes him Wepwawet who was conflated with Anubis. Wepwawet means "opener of the way". He was a war god, but since battle is so deadly, he became associated with being an opener of the way into the underworld. The Whipsering Woods resemble the first gate so much, opening the way for the sun to enter into the nigth lands, it's uncanny. Wepwawet had a grey wolf's head.

Catelyn has been resurrected as Lady Stoneheart, the Silent Sister. If we expand the gates to gates passed in the night, such as the Vale as well (Bloody Gate, Stone, Snow and Sky) as well as Bitterbridge in the Reach then she passed 12 gates. So, like the sun she got to be resurrected for real.

Moat Cailin was closed and in possession of the Ironborn for as long as Theon held WF. When Theon shows up at Moat Cailin to make the remaining Ironborn surrender, we learn how few there are left, especially since the Ironborn could never actually subdue the related Watchers - the Crannogmen in the Neck. The Ruby Ford crossing is determined by whomever who can hold Darry. With the BwB she has control over at least 2 gates: Oldstones and Fairmarket. With a Red Wedding 2 at RR, she will hold Riverrun and thus the gateway of Whispering Woods. I've been wondering whether the sparrows at Darry are actually sparrows. It takes little to impersonate a sparrow: roughspun garb, allowed to carry weapons, and just pin a 7 pointed star on your garb, or draw one with charcoal on your face. Lancel let them in. We have no confirmation that Lancel took them with him to KL. There are over a hundred sparrows inside Darry courtyard. Ser Harwyn went off somewhere chasing the Hound and Beric (well good luck to him). Randyl Tarly decamped from Maidenpool to come to Mace Tyrell's aid with Margaery, and the BwB have a former gate captain in their possession, Ser Hyle Hunt.

That leaves the Twins. Once the other gateways and their seats of control (Maidenpool, Darry and RR) are in LS's power, and WF falls, the Twins will fall with the in-fighting between the remaining Freys there, if it's not already starting. Edwyn and Black Walder are probably at each other's throats. It would not surprise me at all, if there are stories of a wolf's ghost being seen at the Twins.

There are several indications of LS's success: for one, have you noticed how many times Emmon Frey has been mentioned to have a mouth that looks like spitting blood, beause of the sourleaf? Every man and woman shown to be fond of sourleaf, and referenced as having a blood spit mouth because of it has been killed: Yoren, Masha of the Crossroads in, the pious dwarf that Brienne meets at Duskendale, and Robert's actual bloody smile on his deathbed is the event of association to this bloody mouth visual. Jaime notices Emmon's bloody mouth at least thrice, so Emmon Frey is deader than dead. And then she has Robb's crown in her possession and the reforged golden phallus. Both are crucial symbols to regain the "kingdom" from the enemy.

Because of all the gateways, I think that tWoW's prologue featuring Jeyne Westerling as one of the characters, will take place at Golden Tooth. It's a pass, a gate, through mountains, in the West. So, it's a similar gate as Whispering Woods. And it will probably happen with the setting sun, at dusk. The Blackfish knows the secret goat trail, and in a pass 400 soldiers have to file in a line. Rain stones down on them and you can separate the column. George can use rebellious Ambiorix's tactic against a legion of Caesar's soldiers in Gaul for such a battle. Ambiorix managed to kill a whole legion of Romans as the legion crossed a valley - that's thousands of Roman soldiers - though he was vastly outnumbered. Afterwards he killed 5 cohorts more - a total of 7200 Roman soldiers. 

I like your idea of the spirits of WF "taking care" of it now, and how possibly a living Stark must wrestle the power of WF back for himself over the dead Starks in the crypts. The section where Bran and Luwin go into the crypts and Rickon's Shaggy and Summer wrestle with each other might fit with this idea. The black wolf with green eyes suddenly jumps out of Ned's empty tomb. Luwin drops his torch, scrapes Brandon's statue against the face, and sets its feet on flame (well stone can't burn), but it appears that way. Then the grey Summer fights with Black Shaggy, and you see large wolf shadows fighting on the walls in the crypts. The black chthonic canine is Anubis. I think Rickon will be crucial in regaining WF for the Starks and subdue the spirits, but I do think he will not live to be Lord or King of WF.

[Runaway Penguin]

The bones did not pass before the Neck was cut - actually they started after that already happened. However I really do not think that the fact of Ironborn invasion would cause either detour to Maidenpool (way too far away through war zone) or Mollen returning (I mean he would assume raven mail informs Robb - his warnirng would come late, no raven flies to Greywater Watch). A most sensible option is him being guest at GW until the Ironborn are removed - and maybe even after that. I don't think Howland Reed would send Ned's boned into danger willy-nilly and he may even know about Lady Dustin's enmity... Unless the Lady is part of the conspiracy (at times she gives the impression of lady who doth protesteth much). The Lady is very bitter about the Southron ambitions and shows interest in the crypts... Maybe she knows why the bones need to reach their destination?

[ravenous reader]

Great essay @sweetsunray, with especially brilliant catch of the Finnegans Wake 'Riverrun' reference by you and @Daendrew !  The 'commodius vicus of recirculation' alluding to Giambattista Vico who purported like Archmaester Rigney that history is a 'vicious cycle' might also refer to a plumbing system (a 'commode' is a toilet) whereby waste recirculates and is recycled back into life, in similar fashion to a river.  

One question to which I am still seeking a comprehensive answer is why the north is being configured in increasingly fluid terms, as an 'ocean', 'sea' or 'drowned', etc., to which you provide a measure of an answer, explaining how the subterranean and therefore subaquatic realms are welling up and overflowing the bounds of the living.  In other words, the under- or otherworldly realms of the north are encroaching on the south, perhaps all brought about by Ned's restless spirit?  

Unwittingly, Ned's nemesis Baelish may have foretold as well as precipitated this 'watery' transformation when he indicated (in one of his disingenuous quips) that he wished to kill Ned and seal up his bones behind a wall in the Red Keep dungeon, which as you explain may have ironically transpired, albeit under the sept instead of the keep.  In essence, 'Petyr' (etymologically 'rock' or 'stone') wished to turn Ned to stone -- i.e. 'petrify' him (as he later does to Sansa, turning her into Alayne 'Stone') -- but failed!  Unbeknownst to Baelish, the only way to truly seal off Ned's power would have been to inter him safely in the Winterfell crypt with a stone likeness, direwolf and iron sword to keep him contained.  South of the Neck, however, as Littlefinger once himself remarked, the Starks 'melt' -- and become a flood!  When Littlefinger had Ned decapitated (he did everything to pass the sentence, although he may not have swung the sword) literally beheading him 'south of [Ned's] neck,' he knew he would unleash a torrent, but he failed to comprehend the magnitude of how he would simultaneously unleash Ned's power.

Since ice and liquid water are but two phases of water, of which water vapour is the third, it's not surprising that the Staks and their old god avatars may bring their power to bear using any of these three.  In the Winterfell godswood, for example, Theon notes the presence of all three phases of water, which are personified as active agents:

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A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

It was warmer in the godswood, strange to say. Beyond its confines, a hard white frost gripped Winterfell. The paths were treacherous with black ice [solid], and hoarfrost [solid] sparkled in the moonlight on the broken panes of the Glass Gardens. Drifts of dirty snow [solid] had piled up against the walls, filling every nook and corner. Some were so high they hid the doors behind them. Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders, and here and there a blackened beam or a pile of bones adorned with scraps of skin and hair. Icicles [solid] long as lances hung from the battlements and fringed the towers like an old man's stiff white whiskers. But inside the godswood, the ground remained unfrozen, and steam [vapour] rose off the hot pools [liquid] , as warm as baby's breath [vapour].

The bride was garbed in white and grey, the colors the true Arya would have worn had she lived long enough to wed. Theon wore black and gold, his cloak pinned to his shoulder by a crude iron kraken that a smith in Barrowton had hammered together for him. But under the hood, his hair was white and thin, and his flesh had an old man's greyish undertone. A Stark at last, he thought. Arm in arm, the bride and he passed through an arched stone door, as wisps of fog [vapour] stirred round their legs. The drum was as tremulous as a maiden's heart, the pipes high and sweet and beckoning. Up above the treetops, a crescent moon was floating in a dark sky, half-obscured by mist [vapour], like an eye [greenseer] peering through a veil of silk.

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

Theon Greyjoy was no stranger to this godswood. He had played here as a boy, skipping stones across the cold black pool [liquid] beneath the weirwood, hiding his treasures in the bole of an ancient oak, stalking squirrels with a bow he made himself. Later, older, he had soaked his bruises in the hot springs [liquid] after many a session in the yard with Robb and Jory and Jon Snow. In amongst these chestnuts and elms and soldier pines he had found secret places where he could hide when he wanted to be alone. The first time he had ever kissed a girl had been here. Later, a different girl had made a man of him upon a ragged quilt in the shade of that tall grey-green sentinel.

He had never seen the godswood like this, though—grey and ghostly, filled with warm mists [vapour] and floating lights and whispered voices that seemed to come from everywhere and nowhere [greenseer presence again]. Beneath [chthonic reference] the trees, the hot springs [liquid] steamed [vapour]. Warm vapors rose from the earth [death and rebirth], shrouding the trees in their moist breath [vapour], creeping up the walls to draw grey curtains across the watching windows.

 

On 10/27/2016 at 8:04 PM, sweetsunray said:

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The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots. “These are the bones of holy men, murdered for their faith. They served the Seven even unto death. Some starved, some were tortured. Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshipers. Even silent sisters have been molested…” (aFfC, Brienne I)

Like the 'holy men,' Ned was indeed 'murdered for [his] faith' from a certain perspective, considering he kept faith with Robert, 'going south' with him at his request to be Hand of the King in the first place, then stubbornly keeping faith with time-honored traditions of succession rather than relinquishing the throne to Cersei and her Lannister imposter brood, and finally refusing to break faith with his love for his children, even being prepared to give up his honor by falsely confessing to treason, which gave Joffrey the excuse he needed to carry out the execution.

If these are indeed Ned's bones, then it's fitting that he's being accompanied by a number of northern, 'old gods'' symbols.  For example, the bearded 'grizzled grey and brown' septon with 'bare black' feet evokes your (black/brown) 'grizzly bear' motif!  Could a vengeful bear spirit have been unleashed, in which case the septon is aiding or acting on behalf of the abused and baited bear, namely Ned, who having been mutilated and imprisoned underground in the Red Keep Dungeon is arguably reminiscent of a bear whose hibernation has rudely been interrupted and whose killing has certainly been botched in terms of following proper 'bear killing ritual etiquette', as you've outlined.   

Then we have a person compared to 'gnarled tree roots' which reciprocally implies a personified tree like a weirwood or greenseer/prophetic figure like Bloodraven 'half-corpse half-tree', Bran, or the Ghost of High Heart, all of whom are described in similar terms.  Thus, the person tending to the bones is compared to a tree which is compared elsewhere to bones (weirwood bark frequently being referred to as 'bone-white'; the bones and trees 'remember')--  a 'recirculatory vicus'!  In fact, Winterfell itself is compared to an old, gnarled tree:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran II

The rooftops of Winterfell were Bran's second home. His mother often said that Bran could climb before he could walk. Bran could not remember when he first learned to walk, but he could not remember when he started to climb either, so he supposed it must be true.

To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn't even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Then all at once he was back home again.

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

He tried not to flinch as Hodor ducked through a low door. They walked down a long dim hallway, Summer padding easily beside them. The wolf glanced up from time to time, eyes smoldering like liquid gold. Bran would have liked to touch him, but he was riding too high for his hand to reach.

The godswood was an island of peace in the sea of chaos that Winterfell had become. Hodor made his way through the dense stands of oak and ironwood and sentinels, to the still pool beside the heart tree. He stopped under the gnarled limbs of the weirwood, humming. Bran reached up over his head and pulled himself out of his seat, drawing the dead weight of his legs up through the holes in the wicker basket. He hung for a moment, dangling, the dark red leaves brushing against his face, until Hodor lifted him and lowered him to the smooth stone beside the water.

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran I

"The gods?" he murmured, drowsy already. Osha's face grew blurry and grey. Sweet, dreamless sleep, Bran thought.

Yet when the darkness closed over him, he found himself in the godswood, moving silently beneath green-grey sentinels and gnarled oaks as old as time. I am walking, he thought, exulting. Part of him knew that it was only a dream, but even the dream of walking was better than the truth of his bedchamber, walls and ceiling and door.

 

A Clash of Kings - Sansa II

Ser Dontos placed a hand on the gnarled bole of the heart tree. He was shaking, she saw. "I vow, with your father's gods as witness, that I shall send you home."

He swore. A solemn oath, before the gods. "Then . . . I will put myself in your hands, ser. But how will I know, when it is time to go? Will you send me another note?"

 

A Storm of Swords - Arya IV

Yet even so, the hair on the back of her neck stood up that night. She had been asleep, but the storm woke her. The wind pulled the coverlet right off her and sent it swirling into the bushes. When she went after it she heard voices.

Beside the embers of their campfire, she saw Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard talking to a tiny little woman, a foot shorter than Arya and older than Old Nan, all stooped and wrinkled and leaning on a gnarled black cane. Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground. When the wind gusted it blew about her head in a fine cloud. Her flesh was whiter, the color of milk, and it seemed to Arya that her eyes were red, though it was hard to tell from the bushes. "The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?"

"Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, "what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?"

Rethinking the Ghost's prophecy, I've just realised that many of her dreams share a common water element-- bridge, drowned crow, fish woman...  She too seems to have foreseen the dissolution of the north and general over-under, inside-outside, living-dead inversion.

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Thrice the sparrows mention bones together with the claim that even silent sisters were raped: the High Sparrow tells it to Brienne, a one legged sparrow repeats the above speech to Cersei when she asks them about their intentions with all them bones at Baelor’s statue, and finally the High Sparrow repeats the crime against the silent sisters in his fist conversation with Cersei as well as asking whether she has seen the bones. When George repeats teamed phrases thrice in a chapter or arc of the same book (The High Sparrow’s arc in this case), then he usually wants us to pay attention to it. In reality, the High Sparrow would be unable to tell whose bones they find. If hypothetically Hal and the sisters went to Maidenpool and guested at a septry that was attacked by the Bloody Mummers, then the High Sparrow could not have know the box with Ned’s Bones were not a septon’s bones. Perhaps the bones the High Sparrow has in his cart may actually be Ned’s bones?

You make a compelling case!

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Ser Creighton lifted one cheek off the saddle to scratch his arse. “What sort of man would slay a holy septon?”
Brienne knew what sort. Near Maidenpool, she recalled, the Brave Companions had strung a septon up by his heels from the limb of a tree and used his corpse for archery practice. She wondered if his bones were piled in that wayn with all the rest.
“A man would need to be a fool to rape a silent sister,” Ser Creighton was saying. “Even to lay hands upon one . . . it’s said they are the Stranger’s wives, and their female parts are cold and wet as ice.” (aFfC, Brienne I)

So I presume you're implying the 'silent sister' or 'Stranger's wife' might be a reference to Catelyn-come-Lady Stoneheart, making Ned 'the Stranger' in line with your thesis that he represents the Lord of the chthonic underworld and I'd add underwater realm.  In this he's much like the 'Shrouded Lord' or 'his Grey Grace' who might similarly have been wed to an icy water mermaid.  Significantly, the mention of 'ice' could definitely allude to Ned's ancestral sword 'Ice' -- another example of a northern, ancestral talisman accompanying Ned on his peripatetic journey of vengeance or justice ('just Ice').  Alternatively, 'the Stranger's icy wives' might refer to the mobilization of the 'Others' at their Lord's behest.

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And what happened to the bones that the High Sparrow brought with him? Initially they pile them up around Baelor’s statue in King’s Landing, the same square where Ned was beheaded.

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When she saw what they had done to Baelor the Beloved, the queen had cause to rue her soft heart. The great marble statue that had smiled serenely over the plaza for a hundred years was waist-deep in a heap of bones and skulls. (aFfC, Cersei VI)

 

Afterwards the Sparrows cleaned up the square, and I assume they buried the bones beneath Baelor’s Sept. And yes, the thought of Ned’s bones circling back to King’s Landing and ending up beneath the sept of the Faith of the Seven hurt. Unfortunately, I cannot rule it out. In fact, the location where Ned’s bones were last seen is quite suspect for a circular fate. Riverrun is the opening word of James Joyce’s novel Finnegan’s Wake. The opening sentence of the novel should actually be attached to the last unfinished sentence at the end of the book. Once you do that you get

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a way a lone a last a loved a long the / riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.(Finnegan’s Wake, James Joyce)

Great pickup and explanation!  Also reminds me of the allusion to Coleridge's Kubla Khan upon which many elements of Bloodraven's cavern are based:

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In Xanadu did Kubla Khan 

A stately pleasure-dome decree: 

Where Alph, the sacred river, ran 

Through caverns measureless to man 

   Down to a sunless sea...

 

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The book is circular. Finnegan is a character from an Irish song. Drunk from whiskey he falls from a ladder while building a wall, broke his skull and everyone believed him dead. The mourners get rowdy and spill whiskey on Finnegan’s body who wakes from his coffin and is thus resurrected by the same element that killed him, whiskey or “water of life”. In Joyce’s book though the guests tell him he is better off where he was and put him back to rest (and thus kill him). Its main theme is the cycle of life and death with rivers being one of its many symbols (courtesy of Daendrew for pointing it out to me once). One of the most favored and hailed sections of the book are two washerwomen washing clothes at either side of the river, gosipping about the wife of the man accused of a crime. As the day grows darker into night, the river gets wider annd thus overflows its banks and the washerwomen turn gradually into stone and tree, their voices being no more than whispers.

And in relation to that renowned passage of the book, I want to point out the passages of the chapter where Catelyn and Robb cross the Whispering Wood first and then learn Fairmarket was washed out.

Very interesting connection to the 'stone', 'tree' and 'whispering.'

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As the gods would have it, their route took them through the Whispering Wood where Robb had won his first great victory. They followed the course of the twisting stream on the floor of that pinched narrow valley, much as Jaime Lannister's men had done that fateful night. It was warmer then, Catelyn remembered, the trees were still green, and the stream did not overflow its banks. Fallen leaves choked the flow now and lay in sodden snarls among the rocks and roots, and the trees that had once hidden Robb's army had exchanged their green raiment for leaves of dull gold spotted with brown, and a red that reminded her of rust and dry blood. Only the spruce and the soldier pines still showed green, thrusting up at the belly of the clouds like tall dark spears.

More than the trees have died since then, she reflected. On the night of the Whispering Wood, Ned was still alive in his cell beneath Aegon's High Hill, Bran and Rickon were safe behind the walls of Winterfell. And Theon Greyjoy fought at Robb's side, and boasted of how he had almost crossed swords with the Kingslayer. Would that he had. If Theon had died in place of Lord Karstark's sons, how much ill would have been undone?

As they passed through the battleground, Catelyn glimpsed signs of the carnage that had been; an overturned helm filling with rain, a splintered lance, the bones of a horse. Stone cairns had been raised over some of the men who had fallen here, but scavengers had already been at them. Amidst the tumbles of rock, she spied brightly colored cloth and bits of shiny metal. Once she saw a face peering out at her, the shape of the skull beginning to emerge from beneath the melting brown flesh.

It made her wonder where Ned had come to rest. The silent sisters had taken his bones north, escorted by Hallis Mollen and a small honor guard. Had Ned ever reached Winterfell, to be interred beside his brother Brandon in the dark crypts beneath the castle? Or did the door slam shut at Moat Cailin before Hal and the sisters could pass?

 

 

We have a very vivid scene here with a stream overflowing in a "wood of trees" that "whispers" and Catelyn reflects on the passage of time and cycle of life and death. And then two paragraphs later we have two bridges being "washed out" or "washed away" and Glover clingig to a rock to make it out again. In total there are seven paragraphs that reference the two washerwomen whispering as stone and tree at the overflowing banks of the Liffey of James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake, and at the heart of it (the 4th paragraph) Cat wonders where Ned Bones lie now.

A proper burial is something that every culture known to man finds important. It does not matter what you believe or even that you believe in after life, but the majority of people hold to some type of ritual that respects the integrity of the deceased’s body. Purposeful desacration of the remains of the deceased is one of the biggest taboos and therefore often used in wartime as the final demoralizing insult to the enemy, which is exactly what Lady Dustin intends to attempt and what the Freys certainly did to Robb Stark and Catelyn. It is thus painful for readers to know what happens to Robb's body, to Catelyn and the idea that Ned's Bones are not safely tucked away in Greywater Watch.

There are indications, however, that the desecration of Starks and the prevention of the proper burial might actually aid the surviving Starks. This is a family steeped in chthonic symbolism while alive, whose power may actually grow as dead spirits roam the underwordly realm that is the North. Even Ned’s southern wife ends up being resurrected as Lady Stoneheart, and she is only wedded to a Stark. Had the Freys buried her properly according to Riverland’s customs of burning a body on a boat, Beric could never have resurrected her. As for Ned Stark himself, not only is there Ned’s damnation of plenty of people in the chthonic dungeons, but Bran and Rickon meet and talk with Ned Stark down in the crypts at his empty tomb before they receive the confirmation message that Ned is dead (aGoT). Arya talks with a voice she believes to be her father at the weirwood of Harrenhall (aCoK) before she decides to escape, and Jon dreams of Winterfell’s godswood with its weirwood having Ned Stark’s face (aSoS).

I agree that the north has been empowered by Ned's (and Catelyn's) deaths. When the 'door slammed shut' at the Neck, ironically it opened the floodgates.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn IV

Let the kings of winter have their cold crypt under the earth, Catelyn thought. The Tullys drew their strength from the river, and it was to the river they returned when their lives had run their course.

There's no difference between the crypts and river --they're one.  Both are reservoirs of power used for burial and resurrection, just as Bloodraven's cavern is fed and perhaps powered by a 'sunless underground sea.'

By the way, 'sunless sea'= dark seeing (an allusion to 'third-eye' power, with which I suspect Ned is finally making contact and growing into his own, after a lifetime of shrugging off the signs).

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Jon's dream about Ygritte in the godswood of Winterfell can be seen as a hint to Jon that his father's bones ended up misplaced or misidentified because of Maidenpool.

On the one hand the dream places Ned's spirit in the weirwood, and surviving. And then we have a "maiden" (as in "young woman") in a "pool" dissolving until only skull and bones are left. So, Ned Stark, Maidenpool, and skull and bones.

That would make sense.  Also ties into my point about the watery dissolution -- and thereby paradoxical empowerment -- of the north.  The maiden in the pool is reminiscent of Osha bathing in the cold black pool at the foot of the heart tree, in addition to Dany bathing in the similarly black waters under the shadow of the Mother of Mountains at Vaes Dothrak, as well as the pregnant woman in Bran's weirwood 'time projection' into the history of his antecedents.  Again, note the profusion of watery imagery associated with Stark power: 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her.

The immersion ritual symbolises drowning and being born again 'harder and stronger,' and mirrors how Ned used to cleanse Ice in the pool after an execution.  Symbolically, in his watery medium Ned has become the embodiment of his sword Ice.  Note, Ned is described as 'drowned' and 'dissolved' in the passage above.  Ultimately, submersion or immersion in a 'maiden pool' signifies cleansing as well as a wave of revenge.

3 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Speaking of Ned's spirit roaming free and the previous Kings of Winter being now unrestrained by the swords, it seems very much like fate that all this happens when apparently there is no Stark in Winterfell. Could it be that the dead Kings  / Lords of Winterfell may / must fulfill this role in the absence of living Starks? In this case, the failure to bury Ned and the removal of some of the swords from the crypts may only help the inevitable to happen - because there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. When there is no Stark in Winterfell, the whole kingdom is in turmoil and at war, which prevents the proper burial of the last ruler. When the last Starks in Winterfell (Bran and Rickon) have to run away secretly, they take some of the swords from the crypts, thus unknowingly (but doing the right thing) they leave the castle and the realm in the care of the spirits of the dead.  

I think this is the subtext of Theon's chapter 'A Ghost in Winterfell,' in which winter's forces take over the castle (the snow grows in force and seems to act as a counter-insurgency agent against the Boltons and the other invaders; in the same chapter Theon is contacted by Bran another Stark ghost via the heart tree in the godswood, etc.).

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak

Outside the snow was falling still. [remember, the name of the castle is 'Winter fell'] Wet, heavy, silent, it had already begun to cover the footsteps left by the men coming and going from the hall. [winter's forces are overcoming human forces] The drifts came almost to the top of his boots. [the snow is like a flood, in line with my point above] It will be deeper in the wolfswood … and out on the kingsroad, where the wind is blowing, there will be no escape from it. A battle was being fought in the yard; Ryswells pelting Barrowton boys with snowballs. [winter is an agent in the battle -- and it's winning!] Above, he could see some squires building snowmen along the battlements. They were arming them with spears and shields, putting iron halfhelms on their heads, and arraying them along the inner wall, a rank of snowy sentinels. "Lord Winter has joined us with his levies," one of the sentries outside the Great Hall japed … until he saw Theon's face and realized who he was talking to. Then he turned his head and spat.

Like with any supernatural power wielded as weapon, it is a double-edged sword or rather 'sword without a hilt,' which has a habit of getting out of control and threatens to destroy the same living it purports to further or save.  So, I agree in the end the living Starks will have to subdue the dead.  After all, that is their function: namely 'to fell Winter'!

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I like your idea of the spirits of WF "taking care" of it now, and how possibly a living Stark must wrestle the power of WF back for himself over the dead Starks in the crypts. The section where Bran and Luwin go into the crypts and Rickon's Shaggy and Summer wrestle with each other might fit with this idea. The black wolf with green eyes suddenly jumps out of Ned's empty tomb. Luwin drops his torch, scrapes Brandon's statue against the face, and sets its feet on flame (well stone can't burn), but it appears that way. Then the grey Summer fights with Black Shaggy, and you see large wolf shadows fighting on the walls in the crypts.  The black chthonic canine is Anubis. I think Rickon will be crucial in regaining WF for the Starks and subdue the spirits, but I do think he will not live to be Lord or King of WF.

I like that image of the Summer wolf wrestling with the Winter wolf, symbolising the change of seasons.  Winterfell has been crucially associated with the seasons being out of whack as well as their hope for restoration.  For example, it's impressed upon us that the 'wolfish' Tyrion reads the thousand-year-old discourse about the changing of the seasons by a long-dead Maester in the library at Winterfell, a book which was probably later burnt along with the library-- symbolising at once the loss of knowledge as well as an ignition of understanding.  On the same night the book and library was burnt, Summer the 'outside wolf' became the 'inside wolf,' taking up his vigil in Bran's sleeping chamber where Bran was lying in his coma after having thwarted the would-be assassin, and later going underground with him first in the crypts and later down into Bloodraven's cavern.  At present, therefore, the 'inside wolf' Summer is underground with the sweet summer child Bran, thus Summer is hibernating and 'Winter is coming'!   Reciprocally, the wild and ungovernable 'outside wolf' Shaggy is at large, signifying the ascendance of the chthonic forces and the advent of a fell Winter!  I like how he springs out of Ned's empty grave, hinting at the significance of the bones not being returned.  The wilderness is taking over.  In order for the Spring/Summer='Dawn' to reassert itself, Shaggy the night wolf must be subdued and Summer must re-emerge from the cavern.  In other words, the 'outside' and 'inside' wolves must eventually switch places.

33 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said:

The bones did not pass before the Neck was cut - actually they started after that already happened. However I really do not think that the fact of Ironborn invasion would cause either detour to Maidenpool (way too far away through war zone) or Mollen returning (I mean he would assume raven mail informs Robb - his warnirng would come late, no raven flies to Greywater Watch). A most sensible option is him being guest at GW until the Ironborn are removed - and maybe even after that. I don't think Howland Reed would send Ned's boned into danger willy-nilly and he may even know about Lady Dustin's enmity... Unless the Lady is part of the conspiracy (at times she gives the impression of lady who doth protesteth much). The Lady is very bitter about the Southron ambitions and shows interest in the crypts... Maybe she knows why the bones need to reach their destination?

Similar to Shaggy, Lady Dustin is described as a 'feral' predator (with wild, rogue connotations), so I suspect that Lady Dustin as an underworld gatekeeper (Lady of the Barrows...which are large, cavernous First Men burial sites) and undercover agent is actually acting in the interests of the 'northern conspiracy' by ensuring Ned's bones keep circulating, which effectively keeps Ned's power alive to avenge the Red Wedding:  

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

"House Ryswell too," said Roger Ryswell.

"Even Dustins out of Barrowton." Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. "The north remembers, Frey."

Aenys Frey's mouth quivered with outrage. "Stark dishonored us. That is what you northmen had best remember."

The bones could still be in the swamp, where 'all the knights are under the water'!  I have been arguing that Ned's bones not having come to rest have been prevented from turning to stone as it were, with the watery underground environment giving him greater freedom of movement and augmenting his power.

[Seams]

On 10/27/2016 at 8:04 PM, sweetsunray said:

Thrice the sparrows mention bones together with the claim that even silent sisters were raped: the High Sparrow tells it to Brienne, a one legged sparrow repeats the above speech to Cersei when she asks them about their intentions with all them bones at Baelor’s statue, and finally the High Sparrow repeats the crime against the silent sisters in his fist conversation with Cersei as well as asking whether she has seen the bones. When George repeats teamed phrases thrice in a chapter or arc of the same book (The High Sparrow’s arc in this case), then he usually wants us to pay attention to it. In reality, the High Sparrow would be unable to tell whose bones they find. If hypothetically Hal and the sisters went to Maidenpool and guested at a septry that was attacked by the Bloody Mummers, then the High Sparrow could not have know the box with Ned’s Bones were not a septon’s bones. Perhaps the bones the High Sparrow has in his cart may actually be Ned’s bones?

 

And what happened to the bones that the High Sparrow brought with him? Initially they pile them up around Baelor’s statue in King’s Landing, the same square where Ned was beheaded.

...

 

There are indications, however, that the desecration of Starks and the prevention of the proper burial might actually aid the surviving Starks.

I had a little brainstorm. There are many notions in the forum about secret identities. While some are persuasive, I am more willing to believe that GRRM has created "parallel" characters - maybe parallel isn't the right word, though. Symbolic? Allegorical?

Examples: "Mance is Rhaegar!" "The High Sparrow is Howland Reed!"

And I will add a new one: "Rattleshirt is Ned Stark!"

Your insights about Ned's bones might finally makes sense of these clues that have led some people to discern secret identities in characters who seem to be uncannily similar, explain the Baelor / Bael wordplay, and might also help to sort out larger mysteries in the plot (Jon Snow's paternity). I'll try to get to the point:

1) If Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, then Howland Reed would be a big fan of hers and would consider her to be a dear friend for life. One of the "secret identity" theories in the forum says that Howland Reed in disguise has become the High Sparrow. I have my doubts that Howland is literally the High Sparrow, but I would at least admit that Howland and the Sparrow may be a deliberate pair. The High Sparrow's emphasis on the outrage of raping a sister, could be one of these important similarities - Howland must have been ripshit when (if) he heard that someone had raped Lyanna. When the text tells us that the Sparrow is outraged that "sisters" would be raped, it is entirely plausible to imagine Howland enraged that Ned's sister was raped.

2a) I have seen a number of posts comparing Mance and Rhaegar, mostly pointing out that both are singers who play the harp. Mance does function as something of a father figure for Jon Snow, so some of the theorizing may stem from the possible/probable paternal role of Rhaegar as the lover or rapist of Lyanna.

2b) Mance admits that he has snuck into Winterfell in the past and we believe we are seeing him in ADwD as Abel on a rescue mission to liberate the girl believed to be Arya Stark. Mance is helping the Starks with this mission. Of course, the King Beyond the Wall disguised as a singer at Winterfell is an echo of the Bael the Bard story.

3) The OP points out that Ned's bones may have been in the pile that surrounds the statue of Baelor the Blessed in King's Landing, the location where Ned was executed. Mance is able (ha!) to undertake his undercover Winterfell mission because Melisandre has surrounded him with the bones of Rattleshirt: he is disguised as the Lord of Bones and the magic of the glamour keeps anyone from recognizing him. If the OP is correct on this point, then the bones of Ned and the bones of Rattleshirt both surround Bael figures. (Keep in mind, Baelor the Blessed had his sisters locked in a tower so he wouldn't be tempted to sleep with them. There goes that silent sister imagery again.)

4) Mance was supposed to have been burned to death by Stannis and Melisandre, but Mel substituted Rattleshirt and saved Mance for her own reasons. Before Rattleshirt could die from the fire, Jon Snow prevented the more torturous death by having him shot with an arrow. (Fwiw, we also saw Tyrion shoot his father with an arrow, perhaps relieving him of a more torturous death by poison, if forum speculation is correct.) So Jon Snow thought he was shooting Mance ("Rhaegar") but he was really shooting the Lord of Bones ("Ned"), both of whom seem to Jon's "father" in the biological or adoptive sense.

So there's this group of parallel characters that seem connected to this notion of the unburied bones. Does one group (Mance, Rattleshirt, the High Sparrow) help to clarify the other (Rhaegar, Ned, Howland)?

There are some additional details and speculation:

Lady Dustin is bitter that Ned left Lord Dustin's bones at the Tower of Joy years ago. Is it possible that Lady Dustin is a parallel character for Lyanna? Both are associated with horses, both are in the crypt at Winterfell . . . Could Lady Dustin's anger at Ned, and her vow to keep his bones from reaching Winterfell, represent a "voice from the grave" speaking for the silent sister Lyanna?

The Winter King and the Summer King are supposed to fight for the same maiden. If Robert is the Summer King and Ned is the Winter King, maybe Ned raped his silent sister, making her the "bride" of the Stranger . . . Maybe he really is Jon Snow's father, as he has always claimed. Maybe Howland Reed has hidden and avoided contact with Winterfell because he can't stand to look at Ned, and he wants Ned's spirit to be restless and to suffer, so he has aided in the interception of Ned's bones.

Rattleshirt wears a giant's skull as a helmet. We believe that Qyburn sent Gregor Clegane's giant skull to the Martells at Dorne. The Martells are glad if Clegane is finally dead, but they really suspect that Tywin Lannister was the mastermind of the murder of Elia Martell and her children. In effect, Tywin was wearing Clegane's skull as his own armor. If the suspicion is correct that Qyburn has reanimated Clegane to make Ser Robert Strong, then the skull didn't really matter - it was just a disguise or a shell and the monster lives on.

In the Direwolf re-read (currently discussing ACoK), we have a new set of references to wolf skins, and who wants to wear one. So this quote from Rattleshirt sort of leaps off the page: "Might be you fooled these others, crow, but don’t think you’ll be fooling Mance. He’ll take one look a’ you and know you’re false. And when he does, I’ll make a cloak o’ your wolf there, and open your soft boy’s belly and sew a weasel up inside." (ASoS, Jon I) He's right, of course, Jon Snow really is falsely claiming to have left the Night's Watch. But Rattleshirt was the one who forced Jon to kill Qhorin Halfhand, though. I believe Qhorin was an aspect of Jeor Mormont, so there's the death of yet another father-figure by the hand of Jon Snow. (And another link to Tywin Lannister through the Selaesori Qhoran / stinky steward and Half hand / Hand of the King wordplay.)

But the wording of Rattleshirt's threat is worth examining closely: He doesn't say that he wants the cloak made of the wolf skin, he says he will make a cloak of the wolf. In the Direwolf Re-read, the thing that we have noticed about the wolf skin cloak references is that they are often uttered by people who want to be Starks. Maybe, symbolically, Rattleshirt ("Ned") is saying that Jon Snow will become a Stark - will have a wolf cloak - when Mance recognizes him with one look.

The weasel reference must somehow connect to Arya - she travels with a silent girl named weasel and later uses the name Weasel as one of her aliases. Sewing is also an important word in Arya's symbolism. Is the imagery supposed to imply that Jon Snow will be pregnant with a weasel (= a silent sister)? That Arya will stab Jon Snow in the belly with the sword Needle?

There are a lot of possibilities in these parallel characters, if that's what they are.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

The bones did not pass before the Neck was cut - actually they started after that already happened. However I really do not think that the fact of Ironborn invasion would cause either detour to Maidenpool (way too far away through war zone) or Mollen returning (I mean he would assume raven mail informs Robb - his warnirng would come late, no raven flies to Greywater Watch). A most sensible option is him being guest at GW until the Ironborn are removed - and maybe even after that. I don't think Howland Reed would send Ned's boned into danger willy-nilly and he may even know about Lady Dustin's enmity... Unless the Lady is part of the conspiracy (at times she gives the impression of lady who doth protesteth much). The Lady is very bitter about the Southron ambitions and shows interest in the crypts... Maybe she knows why the bones need to reach their destination?

Actually, at the time he left RR, Tywin was marching for the West and Roose held the Ruby Ford, ordered to retake HH. And no there is no confirmation that Moat Cailin was already taken when Hal left with the bones. We only have a rough estimation for Theon raiding the Stony Shore, not Victarion taking Moat Cailin. While I agree it would have been shut to Hal, there is no indication to believe it was already when Cat and Hal arrived from the South at RR. In fact, likely Theon's attacks on the Stony Shore were a tactical diversion to draw Northern attention to those raids first, to then slip passed the attention to capture Deepwood Motte and Moat Cailin. Asha indicates Motte was taken well after. Theon never seemed to have understood his raiding was meant as a diversion/decoy for his uncle's and sister's mission. Meanwhile, passing the Twins on his way North Hal would have learned that Roose had taken HH and the Bloody Mummers switched side. So, Hal could certainly believe kingsroad was safe between Neck and Maidenpool. Even if a bird warns of the taking of Moat Cailin faster than he can get south on the KR again, he would have vital tactical information. Mollen was nothing but dutiful and loyal, and I find it hard to argue that this man, the captain of the guard would just "wait" and not try to accomplish two things in one go: get the sisters on a ship to White Harbor and relay tactical information such as numbers and possibly intentions of HR (if he met him). He may have wanted to go to Saltpans, but it's not a regular harbor with plenty of ships to choose from. And the few ships there might have been going in the wrong direction. So, he would have been told to go to Maidenpool instead, that was back under wolf control. I suspect Harrion Karstark may know more, since he went to Darry to recapture it and slaughtered everybody there, before going south to Duskendale (but somehow ends up in a Maidenpool cell). George wrote in tactical deployments of characters to that area, but kept them off-page as well. He's hiding something.

[Neds Secret]

Excellent work @sweetsunray, a really interesting theory, thanks

[Blackfyre Bastard]

@sweetsunray Thanks very much. This is a great read for a day like this, the Day of the Dead (or more formally, All Souls' Day)

[Ygrain]

Ouch. I very, very much hope that this well-thought OP is dead wrong and that Ned's bones are in HR's keeping. 

Besides, given all the "bones remeber", I do hope that these particular bones might yield some memories about a certain promise.

[sweetsunray]

On 1-11-2016 at 5:19 PM, Julia H. said:

What an essay to read just today!

2 hours ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

This is a great read for a day like this, the Day of the Dead (or more formally, All Souls' Day)

I'll just pretend I planned it so on purpose The long version on my blog with all the Rosdau gateway stuff in the night lands, did indeed get published on the 1st, on Halloween. It's actually a segment of a former essay where I at least had the idea that Ned's bones not being in the crypts yet is actually to the benefit of the Starks, that Ned seems to be communicating, where I back then sort of dismissed the idea of an alternative route.More like, I grasped for any suggestion that Hal and bones are safely in the Neck, without having confirmation on it. I'm not the first having the idea that the High Sparrow carried Ned's bones back to KL, but I had not yet seen a theory that could explain why that should be.

28 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ouch. I very, very much hope that this well-thought OP is dead wrong and that Ned's bones are in HR's keeping. 

Me too. I really hope I'm wrong!

 

4 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

a really interesting theory, thanks

@ravenous reader and @Seams I'm working on a thorough reply on your own thoughts.

[Pain killer Jane]

On 10/28/2016 at 4:52 PM, sweetsunray said:

Brienne is a silent sister, and Catelyn as Lady Stoneheart also has become a silent sister, who is the widow of a former ruler of the underworld and the wife of dead ruler of the underworld, and we could consider Podrick as a silent brother.

Catelyn also mirrors Ser Ilyn Payne as a mute King's Justice. 

And great essay, Sweetsunray! Possible Ghost Army?......

[Pain killer Jane]

23 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

By the way, 'sunless sea'= dark seeing (an allusion to 'third-eye' power, with which I suspect Ned is finally making contact and growing into his own, after a lifetime of shrugging off the signs).

This interests me a lot. Would the fact that Ned grew up in the Eyrie- where weirwoods fail to take root- and alongside the solar/fertility deity, Robert, be the source of this mistrust of signs? But what do we  make of the fact that he also could hear Alyssa's tears from the Eyrie which this serves as associating the Vale with veil of tears? 

[Pain killer Jane]

On 11/1/2016 at 0:49 PM, ravenous reader said:

The bones could still be in the swamp, where 'all the knights are under the water'!

And Aaru is the heavenly paradise of the rushes or Reeds.  

[Pain killer Jane]

17 hours ago, Seams said:

(Keep in mind, Baelor the Blessed had his sisters locked in a tower so he wouldn't be tempted to sleep with them. There goes that silent sister imagery again.)

I would like to add Michael Manwoody to this as he received a harp on his sepulcher instead of the spurs from one of the Princesses of the Tower and negotiated with the 23 Keyholders of the subterranean vaults of the Iron Bank. 

[sweetsunray]

16 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

One question to which I am still seeking a comprehensive answer is why the north is being configured in increasingly fluid terms, as an 'ocean', 'sea' or 'drowned', etc., to which you provide a measure of an answer, explaining how the subterranean and therefore subaquatic realms are welling up and overflowing the bounds of the living.  In other words, the under- or otherworldly realms of the north are encroaching on the south, perhaps all brought about by Ned's restless spirit?

 

The subaquatic is also a type of "underworld" in mythology. The older Greek mythology for example had Poseidon be the ruler of the underworld, and there you don't have the rape of Persephone, but the rape of Demeter... and this was not just a rape in the old meaning of "against a guardian's consent", but Demeter trying to escape and being chased and being angry over it afterwards.George certainly used this with his merman, squishers and the drowned god. What we see happening once Robb goes South, and certainly after Ned's death (the ruler) while there is only a young Stark boy in WF is that other possible underworld rulers try to acquire the seat. The Ironborn who are rulers of the sea, and then this Mexican underworldly type of family that loves flaying skin. The problem is that WF is indeed at heart of the land. Even if a tidal wave can come along, the water will eventually get soaked up by earth and become groundwater. Hence, we see them try, but fail. And by aDwD we have Stannis making the North is home base. He was master-of-sea, so he's a Poseidon like lord.

The underworld encrouching south of the Neck, begins with the Lions of the West causing mayhem in the RL. While lions are a sun symbol, the lions of the west, imply the setting sun. They're like Ra-Atum, the night sun, not the day sun. They begin by setting the lands on fire, especially around the gods eye. But we also see already in aCoK, how the Lannisters are bringing death with them into Kings Landing. As Tyrion makes his first tour in KL he notices the dead bodies lying around, without anyone even attempting to bury them. So, the Lannisters (with Cersei and Joffrey and Tywin foremost) begin the process. Then Robb, ruler of the North goes South and is proclaimed king of North as well as the Riverlands. He basically does an annexation of a southern region (like Horus) and makes it one kingdom. From then on the Riverlands become more and more chthonic.

And in that sense you know that Jaime trying to put things back to "peace" is quite useless. As a Lannister, lion of the West, lion of the night, he can't undo what his family started and Robb completed with his annexation, certainly not when the High Sparrow dumps all those bones at Baelor's statue in KL. As you mention, the floodgates are open already. Try pushing water flowing from a tap back into the tap? And of course the underworld is more successful working from the "underground", "unseen", "in the darkness", "unrecognized".

By the time of aFfC, every Stark is operating under a different identity or believed to be dead:

• Arya believed to be dead with the FM in Braavos and has been succesfully operating in this manner since aCoK. Her actions and choices do not always have big momentous changes. Vargo's plan with Roose was already in the works and the Weasel Soup would not have changed the tactical outcome, but it saved herself and her two best friends Gendry and Hot Pie. Roose put many people's heads on a spike. But Arya being recognized for the Weasel Soup promoted her to the safest position as cupbearer (untouchable to the likes of Rorge) and Genry and Hot Pie would have been associated with her and therefore left alone as well. Her overhearing the slavers talk about Hardhome likely gave the necessary push for the Iron Bank to be rather helpful to the NW. And her Mercy chapter sets up a scandal where the Iron Bank can wipe their hands off of Cersei in KL, after they already agreed to back Stannis.
• Bran believed to be dead since aCoK, with Bloodraven in the cave, but before that while down in the crypts influencing Jon to fully warg and spy on the Milkwater. The rediscovery of the Black Gate. Giving Theon enough of his courage back to save Jeyne Poole, and without Jeyne Poole at WF anymore, the Boltons lose their false Stark
• Rickon believed to be dead since aCoK. No idea what he's been up to in Skagos, except for Shaggy taking down a unicorn, but it certainly is the thing that makes Manderly hatch plans against the Boltons.
• Sansa as Alayne Stone since aSoS. She's set up to be LF's undoing. She is the one over whom Lysa ends up killed. She may not have had the same motivations as LF, but she certainly was an enemy to the Starks and the Tully's. 
• Jon Snow as Ned's bastard, but actually being Lyanna's son. He used his Ned's bastard identity to get Mance to trust him just enough, so that actually was able to get back to the Wall (with some sacrifice), but also gain enough recognition amongst the wildlings to accept a deal from him and have Mance and the spearwives to help fetch fArya. Meanwhile his Stark blood put him in the position to arrange Alys Karstark's marriage to the Magnar of Thenn, that did not involve the Magnar stealing Alys. Of course Jon had to work and make choices to get all that done, but his false identity and his hidden true identity gave him that edge.
• Catelyn Tully-Stark resurrected as Lady Stonheart unbeknowest to her enemies. She may only be a Stark through marriage, but at the RW she does identify herself as a Stark, "On my honor as a Tully, on my honor as a Stark." She now leads an elusive underground resistance that has the backing of the smallfolk and operates in cells, north and south of the Trident, as far as Maidenpool. And though George does his very best in aFfC to make it look as if the BwB is falling apart, we are given enough clues the opposite is probably true and that even Houses who bent the knee to Tommen are likely aiding the BwB. The price for their full cooperation probably is the freeing of the hostages the Freys had and that Jaime ordered to be escorted to KL.

And with all that magic going around, there is no actual reason to dismiss Ned Stark from the list. If his bones got misidentified, he becomes an even more hidden Stark agent. Same goes for Robb who's now been physically turned into half-wolf.

On 1-11-2016 at 8:49 PM, ravenous reader said:

Unwittingly, Ned's nemesis Baelish may have foretold as well as precipitated this 'watery' transformation when he indicated (in one of his disingenuous quips) that he wished to kill Ned and seal up his bones behind a wall in the Red Keep dungeon, which as you explain may have ironically transpired, albeit under the sept instead of the keep.  In essence, 'Petyr' (etymologically 'rock' or 'stone') wished to turn Ned to stone -- i.e. 'petrify' him (as he later does to Sansa, turning her into Alayne 'Stone') -- but failed!  Unbeknownst to Baelish, the only way to truly seal off Ned's power would have been to inter him safely in the Winterfell crypt with a stone likeness, direwolf and iron sword to keep him contained.

Well "stone" is a chthnoic word. A stone person is a dead person. But a dead Stark is imo not a powerless Stark. And yes... all those enemies who think that desecrating a dead Stark is the ultimate humiliation and proof of their power over Starks, comes to bite them back in the ass.

Just look at Lysa: she thinks she has won LF from Catelyn, because he married her and Catelyn is dead, and the Starks are dead and the remaining Tully is in a prison cell at the Twins. Now she even has Catelyn's look-alike as a hostage basically to wed her to her son and make Sweetrobin the lord over both WF and the Eyrie. But then Sansa becomes Catelyn's stand-in ghost with Lysa talking to Sansa as if she is Catelyn. Lysa had everything she wanted, underestimated Sansa's presence at her court, and she falls literally from the highest achievement to her death, with the last words said to her, ebing "Only Cat."

On 1-11-2016 at 8:49 PM, ravenous reader said:

Since ice and liquid water are but two phases of water, of which water vapour is the third, it's not surprising that the Staks and their old god avatars may bring their power to bear using any of these three.  In the Winterfell godswood, for example, Theon notes the presence of all three phases of water, which are personified as active agents:

Love that association you make - solid, fluid and gaseous form of water. Meanwhile the quotes you gave of the godswood through Theon's POV show that the only place where life is possible or from which life springs is the Stark godswood, which is such a chthonic location (aside from the crypts).

 

On 1-11-2016 at 8:49 PM, ravenous reader said:

It was warmer in the godswood, strange to say. Beyond its confines, a hard white frost gripped Winterfell. The paths were treacherous with black ice, and hoarfrost sparkled in the moonlight on the broken panes of the Glass Gardens. Drifts of dirty snow had piled up against the walls, filling every nook and corner. Some were so high they hid the doors behind them. Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders, and here and there a blackened beam or a pile of bones adorned with scraps of skin and hair. Icicles long as lances hung from the battlements and fringed the towers like an old man's stiff white whiskers. But inside the godswood, the ground remained unfrozen, and steam rose off the hot pools, as warm as baby's breath.

The bride was garbed in white and grey, the colors the true Arya would have worn had she lived long enough to wed. Theon wore black and gold, his cloak pinned to his shoulder by a crude iron kraken that a smith in Barrowton had hammered together for him. But under the hood, his hair was white and thin, and his flesh had an old man's greyish undertone. A Stark at last, he thought. Arm in arm, the bride and he passed through an arched stone door, as wisps of fog stirred round their legs. The drum was as tremulous as a maiden's heart, the pipes high and sweet and beckoning. Up above the treetops, a crescent moon was floating in a dark sky, half-obscured by mist, like an eye peering through a veil of silk.

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

Theon Greyjoy was no stranger to this godswood. He had played here as a boy, skipping stones across the cold black pool beneath the weirwood, hiding his treasures in the bole of an ancient oak, stalking squirrels with a bow he made himself. Later, older, he had soaked his bruises in the hot springs after many a session in the yard with Robb and Jory and Jon Snow. In amongst these chestnuts and elms and soldier pines he had found secret places where he could hide when he wanted to be alone. The first time he had ever kissed a girl had been here. Later, a different girl had made a man of him upon a ragged quilt in the shade of that tall grey-green sentinel.

He had never seen the godswood like this, though—grey and ghostly, filled with warm mists and floating lights and whispered voices that seemed to come from everywhere and nowhere. Beneath the trees, the hot springs steamed. Warm vapors rose from the earth, shrouding the trees in their moist breath, creeping up the walls to draw grey curtains across the watching windows.

In the last paragraph I marked some chthonic words in the life color, because the warm vapors are doing the shrouding and creeping here, onto objects that are usually associated with death. But these passage contrast highly those of Cat's when she visits Ned in the godswood while he's cleaning Ice. But yes Theon sees how life comes from death, and then his "a Stark at last" is a very appropriate conclusion. Starks would know that death is not the end, nor life's enemy. New life is born from death. Since Theon sees this cycle, he thus would also witness the cycle of water into its various forms.

 

On 1-11-2016 at 8:49 PM, ravenous reader said:

If these are indeed Ned's bones, then it's fitting that he's being accompanied by a number of northern, 'old gods'' symbols.  For example, the bearded 'grizzled grey and brown' septon with 'bare black' feet evokes your (black/brown) 'grizzly bear' motif!  Could a vengeful bear spirit have been unleashed, in which case the septon is aiding or acting on behalf of the abused and baited bear, namely Ned, who having been mutilated and imprisoned underground in the Red Keep Dungeon is arguably reminiscent of a bear whose hibernation has rudely been interrupted and whose killing has certainly been botched in terms of following proper 'bear killing ritual etiquette', as you've outlined.   

Then we have a person compared to 'gnarled tree roots' which reciprocally implies a personified tree like a weirwood or greenseer/prophetic figure like Bloodraven 'half-corpse half-tree', Bran, or the Ghost of High Heart, all of whom are described in similar terms.  Thus, the person tending to the bones is compared to a tree which is compared elsewhere to bones (weirwood bark frequently being referred to as 'bone-white'; the bones and trees 'remember')--  a 'recirculatory vicus'!  In fact, Winterfell itself is compared to an old, gnarled tree:

Septon Meribald's feet are also compared to looking like gnarled roots IIRC. Gnarled and roots are chthonic lexicon words. It's possible the High Sparrow is a bear character. I haven't looked into him in that way, but I can see the hints for that. The chthonic trees are often described as gnarled like an old man, and subsequentionally the reverse is also true - old men gnarled like trees. I think it seems to make these men 'wisdoms' who speak for the gods, whether the old or the new.

 

On 1-11-2016 at 8:49 PM, ravenous reader said:

So I presume you're implying the 'silent sister' or 'Stranger's wife' might be a reference to Catelyn-come-Lady Stoneheart, making Ned 'the Stranger' in line with your thesis that he represents the Lord of the chthonic underworld and I'd add underwater realm.  In this he's much like the 'Shrouded Lord' or 'his Grey Grace' who might similarly have been wed to an icy water mermaid.  Significantly, the mention of 'ice' could definitely allude to Ned's ancestral sword 'Ice' -- another example of a northern, ancestral talisman accompanying Ned on his peripatetic journey of vengeance or justice ('just Ice').  Alternatively, 'the Stranger's icy wives' might refer to the mobilization of the 'Others' at their Lord's behest.

Well, at the very least the paragraph allused to Stoneheart, yes as silent sister. It's mentioned in the first chapter of Brienne in aFfC, and her final chapter of the same novel is Brienne meeting the Silent Sister who has half of ice back in her hands. Not only is she told that Stoneheart is also called The Silent Sister , seeing Stoneheart in her grey garb and hood and scarf, she thinks she looks like a silent sister. And Brienne is a silent sister too in a way, carrying Ice. Jaime calls her the most obnoxious company because she's so silent. It's often interpreted by other characters as Brienne being upset or angry with them, but even when she's in a good mood she's silent. In her POV we often get people talking to her, and she answering them in her mind, but without actually saying what pops up in her mind. It doesn't really matter who is talking to her. And when she does speak it tends to be formal, short sentences, or an interrogation.

 

On 1-11-2016 at 8:49 PM, ravenous reader said:

Great pickup and explanation!  Also reminds me of the allusion to Coleridge's Kubla Khan upon which many elements of Bloodraven's cavern are based:

And Hypnos' cave too... the cave in the underworld that is home to the God of Sleep (and dreams).

 

[Daendrew]

Cthulhu is chthonic.

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

Cthulhu is chthonic.

He certainly is

[Pain killer Jane]

@sweetsunray

I think this book might interest you.

https://www.amazon.com/Bone-Gatherers-Worlds-Early-Christian/dp/0807013099