Marcus corvinus Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Westeros is based heavily on medieval europe, which was a highly traditional and conservative society. The idea of chivalry is very much steeped in a sort of platonic friendship between a knight and a lady or even a subconscious attraction or romance. He's performing the role of the provider, he's defending women( potential wives/romantic interests), children and ensuring the continuation of society. Now a straight knight can easily go with that idea but does the same work for a gay knight like loras? Since doesn't have any attraction towards women does it mean that protecting women or respecting them or maintaining courtesy isn't the same to him. We see jon con interact slightly with lemore and its mentioned that he was fond of her but again instantly becomes somewhat condescending while thinking that he doesn't need her approval with anything. A straight knight might not instantly be such towards an attractive lady. Also the matter of protecting children....a gay man won't be a father, so can he feel the same urge to protect or show sympathy towards children? Jon con seems to regard aegon as a son of sorts but that may be out respect for rhaegar and his royal lineage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo_Dane Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Gregor Clegane could have children. That didn't stop him from butchering anyone and everyone, including children. I don't think Loras' sexual orientation warps his view of chivalry, as the "code" is rather straight forward. If anything, his need/desire to hide his sexual orientation from the conservative society increase his chivalrous displays. Loras seems no different from any other knight in a public manor. Again, he seems to be held in a much higher regard in relation to chivalry and admired by woman more than most other Knights. What he may or may not do behind closed doors is irrelevant in regards to chivalry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaedys Targaryen Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 20 minutes ago, Marcus corvinus said: Westeros is based heavily on medieval europe, which was a highly traditional and conservative society. The idea of chivalry is very much steeped in a sort of platonic friendship between a knight and a lady or even a subconscious attraction or romance. He's performing the role of the provider, he's defending women( potential wives/romantic interests), children and ensuring the continuation of society. Now a straight knight can easily go with that idea but does the same work for a gay knight like loras? Since doesn't have any attraction towards women does it mean that protecting women or respecting them or maintaining courtesy isn't the same to him. We see jon con interact slightly with lemore and its mentioned that he was fond of her but again instantly becomes somewhat condescending while thinking that he doesn't need her approval with anything. A straight knight might not instantly be such towards an attractive lady. Also the matter of protecting children....a gay man won't be a father, so can he feel the same urge to protect or show sympathy towards children? Jon con seems to regard aegon as a son of sorts but that may be out respect for rhaegar and his royal lineage I don't quite see what the problem is. Chivalry goes for being humble to both women AND men. And as you said, "the idea is very much steeped in a sort of platonic relationship between a knight and a lady". Sure, if a woman is very beautiful, there might be instant attraction on the knight's side and he isn't prohibited from engaging in sex with her, but sometimes a knight may encounter a lady and not be attracted to her. Also, are you saying that just because a man is homosexual that means he won't feel the same urge to protect or show sympathy to women and children like a heterosexual man does? xD Loras is already very chivalrous to women, despite his sexual orientation. Also, does the Faith have any problems with homosexuality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo_Dane Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 19 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said: Also, does the Faith have any problems with homosexuality? Of course in the books it isn't so blatant that Loras is homosexually but he does take strides to hide that fact. Society and religion shape each other's views on social issues. Medieval society was not very accepting and as it seems GRRM writes with analogs in mind and as most religions are (were? Idk I don't pay much attention) anti-homosexual I would assume that the Faith is too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Medieval society did not have the concept of homosexuality. What mattered wasn't the sex of the participants, but rather who was doing the penetrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 For starters, "revere and respect and protect women so you'll get to fuck them" is not an actual, binding part of the chivalry code. The "fuck" part is merely an unwritten, optional perk. And, as we've seen Ser Loras interacting with female personnel of the opposite sex, he behaves in perfectly chivalrous manner even without the implied prize of coitus. As for kids - hard-binding parental instincts with heterosexual orientation seems like a logical stretch. Why would gay people ever be interested in adopting, if that was the case? Anyway, I don't think it's the topic for "The Novels" forum. If anything, it's for "General Chatter". Anyway, "natural parental instincts" shouldn't be any more important that "natural liege lord obeying instincts" or "natural protecting members of royal family instincts". He said vows, he's expected to honor them, period. No matter if it comes naturally, or he has to force himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Zoo_Dane said: I don't think Loras' sexual orientation warps his view of chivalry, as the "code" is rather straight forward. I see what you did there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Loras is just fine and perfectly chivalrous, thank you. If being attracted to women is a pre-requisite, than Brienne can never hope to be chivalrous. Loras can never have children? By his own choice as a member of the Kingsguard, sure. But then Barristan the Bold could never hope to be truly chivalrous either. I don't think either one of the pre-requisites you mention have any bearing on the idea of chivalry. There are elements of the idealized platonic relationship you mention (from our world), but there's an entire code that surrounds it. It's about being honorable and protecting those who can't protect themselves, and that generally includes women and children in this society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Marcus corvinus said: Westeros is based heavily on medieval europe, which was a highly traditional and conservative society. The idea of chivalry is very much steeped in a sort of platonic friendship between a knight and a lady or even a subconscious attraction or romance. He's performing the role of the provider, he's defending women( potential wives/romantic interests), children and ensuring the continuation of society. Now a straight knight can easily go with that idea but does the same work for a gay knight like loras? Since doesn't have any attraction towards women does it mean that protecting women or respecting them or maintaining courtesy isn't the same to him. We see jon con interact slightly with lemore and its mentioned that he was fond of her but again instantly becomes somewhat condescending while thinking that he doesn't need her approval with anything. A straight knight might not instantly be such towards an attractive lady. Also the matter of protecting children....a gay man won't be a father, so can he feel the same urge to protect or show sympathy towards children? Jon con seems to regard aegon as a son of sorts but that may be out respect for rhaegar and his royal lineage There is nothing in the code of chivalry about women or homosexuality. All that opening door crap came about when people romanticized it after it had been dead for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrl6199 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Just now, Dorian Martell's son said: There is nothing in the code of chivalry about women or homosexuality. All that opening door crap came about when people romanticized it after it had been dead for a long time. Their was in medieval times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 12 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said: Their was in medieval times. No, there was not. Chivalry was a soldier having a horse. All the stuff of nobility, courtly etiquite and being noce to women was added in romantic times after the concept had been long dead. GRRM makes fun of this by having men like Gregor be knights annointed with the seven oils and swearing by the faith and all that bullshit while raping, pillaging and murdering children. Knights in the book are satire. The most honorable people in the books are not knights, just people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said: No, there was not. Chivalry was a soldier having a horse. All the stuff of nobility, courtly etiquite and being noce to women was added in romantic times after the concept had been long dead. There was, actually. It started as warrior ethos and the name comes from chevalier, but it evolved over time. Religion was heavily entwined into it and the honor of (highborn) women did become a part of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Look at Loras's behavior compared to that of Ser Gregor Clegane, Ser Dontos Hollard, or those two knightly fuckwits Brienne encounters on her search for Sansa. Who better embodies chivalry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakhearts head Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 This thread is pretty hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GyantSpyder Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 If we're actually talking about medieval literature, then the concept is not chivalry, but "courtly love" - which specifically is about adoration between a knight and a highborn lady, often while she was married to someone else, that rises above the level of regular old affairs by being sexually restrained and devoted to the moral and spiritual as well as the physical. It's connected to "Platonic love" which only can be elevated because it does not meet its fulfillment in what was understood to be conventional sexual intercourse. Chivalric love is absolutely not about "getting them to sleep with you." It's not all that much about defending the chastity of maidens - that's more the job of the family than of knights. It's not even all that much about people who don't have sex getting to have sex. It's about people who already have sex getting to have better sex, and better than sex. It's from Italy and France, people! Courtly love from chivalric romance is more about heightening pleasure and expression in the context of then-contemporary culture, religion and spirituality. You have to remember that most of these people either a) visited prostitutes or b ) were in familial, transactional marriages where they started having sex at a young age with somebody they didn't particularly care for at the time. Sex itself was not the goal. It's the beginning of what turned into, say, listening to records while talking about your souls, and also the beginning of contemporary romance novels with pirates and lonely bachelor cowboys and all that. You might (probably) have sex, but having sex is not the point, and if you don't understand sex or how it works, you're not participating in this sort of thing anyway. It is not correct to seek to understand courtly love from the standpoint of the sex starved adolescent male just because it includes swordfights. It was a court culture mostly of sophisticated young aristocratic women and court poets and whatnot. That is, of the cool kids. Loras absolutely is a figure of courtly love and chivalric romance later in the story, because Renly is dead, and yet Loras is still devoted to him. While Renly was alive, it's debatable - their romance might be seen as more courtly/chivalric if they only rarely got to meet, in secret, as opposed to the HBO vision of it, where they sleep together casually and shave each other and have regular midmorning shenanigans and whatnot. But it does share the characteristics of courtly/chivalric love because there is a barrier to consummation between the highborn and the knight, and the barrier seems to deepen and intensify their relationship in both erotic and spiritual ways. Brienne is also a figure of courtly love with Renly, except then she meets Jaime and it gets all mixed up, and they also have a sort of courtly love relationship, but it's confounded and subverted in a bunch of ways, especially because he is higher-status and on the feminine side of masculine, whereas she's lower-status and on the masculine side of feminine, and yet he's the one who saves her physically, while she saves him morally - it's a very complex riff - whereas Loras is much more straightforward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 This thread is as funny as those how could Renly ever possibly have an heir threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Of course there was a concept of homosexuality, people weren't blind to their sexuality. On a side note, it was really annoying how DnD handled Loras character, he could be basically be summarized as "that gay one". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 So you're implying Loras can't do his job because of his sexual orientation? That sounds eerily familiar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking902 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 The very concept of this thread doesnt make sense IMO. Being a gay knight doesnt matter as long as you hide it from your peers, I have a gay uncle who adopted two children and he loves them very much being gay doesnt make you any less compassionate about woman or children it might even strengthen it in some ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 20 minutes ago, Stormking902 said: The very concept of this thread doesnt make sense IMO. Being a gay knight doesnt matter as long as you hide it from your peers, I have a gay uncle who adopted two children and he loves them very much being gay doesnt make you any less compassionate about woman or children it might even strengthen it in some ways. Loras's sexuality wasn't particularly hidden. Plenty of people were aware of it. Didn't stop him from being a fighter at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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