Do you think Daenerys and Jon Snow

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

That's the short way of saying fan-fic-for-the-tv-only-crowd-that-doesn't-know-90%-of the story-or-90%-of the characters-so-they-vote-for-the-princess-version 

You got it right now 

[Dragon in the North]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Is this what you are talking about the show "spoiled"? Because that stuff was not spoiled by the show at all.

No, that was my response to a poster who was arguing that since the circumstances behind these events were different, the show won't spoil the books. My point was that even though the detail may differ, the fact remains that major plot points have been and will be spoiled. For example, Jon's resurrection, Dany taking control of the khalasar, Arya leaving the Faceless Men, Euron killing Balon, Valerian steel killing White Walkers, Shireen's burning, Hodor means "hold the door," Cersei burns down King's Landing, Tyrion becomes Hand of the Queen, Bran becoming the Three-Eyed Raven, R+L=J, the Hound being alive, the Knights of the Vale ride North, the Children of the Forest creating the White Walkers, etc. 

[Farerb]

1 hour ago, Dragon in the North said:

No, that was my response to a poster who was arguing that since the circumstances behind these events were different, the show won't spoil the books. My point was that even though the detail may differ, the fact remains that major plot points have been and will be spoiled. For example, Jon's resurrection, Dany taking control of the khalasar, Arya leaving the Faceless Men, Euron killing Balon, Valerian steel killing White Walkers, Shireen's burning, Hodor means "hold the door," Cersei burns down King's Landing, Tyrion becomes Hand of the Queen, Bran becoming the Three-Eyed Raven, R+L=J, the Hound being alive, the Knights of the Vale ride North, the Children of the Forest creating the White Walkers, etc. 

Tyrion won't become Hand of the Queen cause Martin actually remains true to the characterization he has written. I don't see any logical situation in which Dany names Tyrion her hand (or anyone for that matter cause Daenerys is done being a queen).

Cersei won't burn KL. Aegon will most likely conquer it, but I can see it happening on the show cause they like to whitewash their heroes.

[Dragon in the North]

15 minutes ago, farerb said:

Tyrion won't become Hand of the Queen cause Martin actually remains true to the characterization he has written. I don't see any logical situation in which Dany names Tyrion her hand (or anyone for that matter cause Daenerys is done being a queen).

Tyrion becoming Dany's Hand is actually a popular theory. And Dany certainly hasn't finished being a queen. Otherwise, her story would have ended at the end of ADWD.

 

16 minutes ago, farerb said:

Cersei won't burn KL. Aegon will most likely conquer it, but I can see it happening on the show cause they like to whitewash their heroes.

Possibly, but we'll have to wait for Winds and Dream to come out to know for sure.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 6. 11. 2016 at 3:47 PM, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

i'm in the vanguard of the camp who will be extremely disapointed if jon does not consider Ned his ONLY father, because he was, period... sperm donors are only that, donors...

but i´m also in the camp that dany-jon interactions would be better if jon IS NOT a targ... aunt-nephew dialogue (even non-romantically)?? naah, that's boring to me

and to me, dany as the only targaryen brings more to her side, the true balance between ice and fire, not only one person... if jon is a targ, it takes away from dany´s part of the story, wich is BEING THE LAST TARG...

i as a writer would not take away from one angle, and put on the other, jon as a stark (and non-targ) and dany as a full targ is truly a great in-story balance, not jon-azor ahai-hail rhaeman and lyanna tumblr romance-bla bla-boring as hell... again, imo

 

To consider Ned is ONLY father would be well not so wise move. Even from narative. Jon is constantly reminded in both book and show, He's not a Stark even if we want him to be, he's got their blood but he's not one of them. Kings of Winter during feast even were hostile against him. Jon needs in order to fully reach his potential embrace both sides of his heritage Stark and Targaryen. Not just one. I think while Ned will be his REAL father, he learned everything from him, he took care of him and let him to be raised among loving family except Cat. He need to make a peace that Rhaegar is his bilogical father, just like Lyanna is his mother...you can't ignore them.

As for Jon and Dany. Jon is Targ and I think it adds to them more then it takes away from them. Dilemma,conflict and drama that comes with his parentage. Dany always wanted family, to know there is someone with her blood and actually a Targ adds to her.

I dont think it's about Jon, or even being azor ahai. That seems to be Dany. George even said title stads for The Others and Dany and her dragons but balance is what Jon represents.

 

[Lord Friendzone]

On 6. 11. 2016 at 1:23 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Since Nymeria was accepted there is no reason why Val shouldn't be accepted.

There is little political value to that marriage. Even if I'd like that idea.

They really don't have foreshadowings. 

You might want to ignore, but they do.

I don't agree.

D&D always said and they know ending for George's books. Why do you think they knew about Shireen, Hodor and one other thing. Of course context will be different but it will happen in the books.

Here you have some of it:

"... Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of, her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow."

Dany's chapter in A Clash of KIngs? (I am not sure.)

"... For the rest of his life- however long that might be - he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not to speak his true name"

Jon's chapter in A Game of Thrones.

Jon is described too to have a face that gives noting away, like a shadow. Something in Mel chapters but can't remember what it exactly was but something with a shadow behind a fluttering curtain too. I would have to check it out.

 

 

"The light of the half-moon turned Val's hone- blond a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. Air tastes sweet."

Jon's chapter in  A Dance with Dragons.

As you can see a pale silver, funny enough we know who's got silver hair, on top of that sweet again. Jon liked what he saw. For sure there will be something between Jon and Val or at least he has attraction to her and it foreshadows he likes what resemble very much Dany.

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweatness...mother of dragon, bride of fire."

Daenery's chapter in A Clash of Kings.

Especially bride of fire part where it stands for husbands or really connected to people very important to her, lovers. Drogo being first, Hizdar/Euron being second. Jon being third. While, sweatness means foul/bad things to her - it's kinda connected to sweatness, love, poison. Still, they'll be love. Although, it might very well end tragically for her. As HOTU vision is from he point of view.

Some people might consider this to be Silver, Drogon, Ghost but more inclined towards first option.

 

"Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound mad her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry..."

Daenery's chapter in A Dance with Dragons.

There is even a spiritual connection between without even knowing it. This happened after Jon was stabbed, Jon's chapter , Cersei and than Dany in ADWD. Since D&D knows how things pans out, it'S posible Ghost in the show howled, much like he will in the books. He's there mute, this might be perfect way to do it.

[Le Cygne]

Dany calls Daario beautiful, he appeared shortly after the dream and became her lover. (And the word shadow is used more than 600 times in the books...)

He would not write a romance based on special moments with another woman. The scene with Val was about Val, and tells us something about Jon.

Also this thread for another look at the HotU passages:

[Ser Wun Wun]

He'll find out in S8.  At this point, I imagine their S8 romance will play out like this:

Jon/Dany can't get married immediately because the North is under attack when they get there.  Jon finds out about his parentage before any marriage takes place.  He's horrified and pulls away from Dany (without telling her why, I'd imagine).....then he finds out Dany is pregnant.  The show has kept her 'I will bear no living child until...' prophecy for a reason imo.

At that point, Jon's dilemma is:  Do I knowingly commit incest and marry my Aunt, or do I become the father of a bastard child?  Human heart in conflict with itself and all that jazz.  

Pretty sure he'll marry her in that scenario.  Then one of them dies, Dany in childbirth or Jon in battle.  I'd like it if they both lived, but it's hard to be that optimistic with this series.    

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

snip

I have seen that all before and I still don't see it. They just seem as desperate choices made to fit a fan fiction when they dismiss other choices who fit much better and have way more forshadowings than that.

[The Bear Who Knocks]

I see it as d&d pandering to themselves since they're clearly jon and daenerys fanboys that whitewash and subvert other characters for them. Same seems to happen with Cersei and Tyrion.

[The Bear Who Knocks]

BTW which argument is it?

1) Grrm told them the fate of all characters stories and fates so they're "efficiently" cutting down on filler to meet the "same" ending

Or

2) They only know the broadstroaks and ending but because WoW and ADoS aren't out it's on grrm. So, d&d have to wing it on their own to get that same ending.

Because, in my time lurking here I've seen people flip flop between the two so often its mind boggling.

[Meera of Tarth]

11 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Here you have some of it:

"... Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of, her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow."

Dany's chapter in A Clash of KIngs? (I am not sure.)

"... For the rest of his life- however long that might be - he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not to speak his true name"

Jon's chapter in A Game of Thrones.

Jon is described too to have a face that gives noting away, like a shadow. Something in Mel chapters but can't remember what it exactly was but something with a shadow behind a fluttering curtain too. I would have to check it out.

 

 

"The light of the half-moon turned Val's hone- blond a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. Air tastes sweet."

Jon's chapter in  A Dance with Dragons.

As you can see a pale silver, funny enough we know who's got silver hair, on top of that sweet again. Jon liked what he saw. For sure there will be something between Jon and Val or at least he has attraction to her and it foreshadows he likes what resemble very much Dany.

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweatness...mother of dragon, bride of fire."

Daenery's chapter in A Clash of Kings.

Especially bride of fire part where it stands for husbands or really connected to people very important to her, lovers. Drogo being first, Hizdar/Euron being second. Jon being third. While, sweatness means foul/bad things to her - it's kinda connected to sweatness, love, poison. Still, they'll be love. Although, it might very well end tragically for her. As HOTU vision is from he point of view.

Some people might consider this to be Silver, Drogon, Ghost but more inclined towards first option.

 

"Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound mad her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry..."

Daenery's chapter in A Dance with Dragons.

There is even a spiritual connection between without even knowing it. This happened after Jon was stabbed, Jon's chapter , Cersei and than Dany in ADWD. Since D&D knows how things pans out, it'S posible Ghost in the show howled, much like he will in the books. He's there mute, this might be perfect way to do it.

From of all your quotes I could only accept as foreshadowing the one in the House of the Undying, if anything. The rest is just extremely out of nowhere.

How could the description of Val be foreshadowing of Daenerys? I mean, he is clearly being happy at Val's description.

And the wolf?This word appears more than 500 imes in the books.

Just one I found about Tyrion:

Quote

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning

of course this is not about him being hungry. I guess the word hungry might suggest hungry of lust or romance?

Well, the word hungry appears 3 times in the chapter of Daenerys. She is just HUNGRY in that chapter:

Hers had been a lonely sojourn, and for most of it she had been hurt and hungry … yet despite it all she had been strangely happy here. A few aches, an empty belly, chills by night … what does it matter when you can fly? I would do it all again.

She was hungry too. One morning she had found some wild onions growing halfway down the south slope, and later that same day a leafy reddish vegetable that might have been some queer sort of cabbage

Not to mention that Daenerys is hungry in many of her chapters and we are told everythinh she eats, something the author does with all the characters.

[Ser Wun Wun]

12 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Here you have some of it:

"... Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of, her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow."

Dany's chapter in A Clash of KIngs? (I am not sure.)

"... For the rest of his life- however long that might be - he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not to speak his true name"

Jon's chapter in A Game of Thrones.

Jon is described too to have a face that gives noting away, like a shadow. Something in Mel chapters but can't remember what it exactly was but something with a shadow behind a fluttering curtain too. I would have to check it out.

 

 

"The light of the half-moon turned Val's hone- blond a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. Air tastes sweet."

Jon's chapter in  A Dance with Dragons.

As you can see a pale silver, funny enough we know who's got silver hair, on top of that sweet again. Jon liked what he saw. For sure there will be something between Jon and Val or at least he has attraction to her and it foreshadows he likes what resemble very much Dany.

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweatness...mother of dragon, bride of fire."

Daenery's chapter in A Clash of Kings.

Especially bride of fire part where it stands for husbands or really connected to people very important to her, lovers. Drogo being first, Hizdar/Euron being second. Jon being third. While, sweatness means foul/bad things to her - it's kinda connected to sweatness, love, poison. Still, they'll be love. Although, it might very well end tragically for her. As HOTU vision is from he point of view.

Some people might consider this to be Silver, Drogon, Ghost but more inclined towards first option.

 

"Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound mad her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry..."

Daenery's chapter in A Dance with Dragons.

There is even a spiritual connection between without even knowing it. This happened after Jon was stabbed, Jon's chapter , Cersei and than Dany in ADWD. Since D&D knows how things pans out, it'S posible Ghost in the show howled, much like he will in the books. He's there mute, this might be perfect way to do it.

I did a reread a few months ago (when I naively thought Winds might be out before the end of the year)  and this line caught my eye:

Quote

Daenerys; ADWD

If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly.

Dany is basically expressing a desire to be stolen here.  

It put the crackpot idea in my head that Jon Snow will "steal" Dany in the books.  Not to make her his woman or anything, but to drag her ass North of the Wall so she can see the true threat with her own eyes.  Something to that effect.

Of all the ways George could initiate a romance between them, I think that would be the best.  The show version where they simply meet and flirt seems a bit...conventional.  I've expected Jon/Dany for years, but I was disappointed with how the leaker described it.  Sounds pretty tame and boring.  

  

[Farerb]

7 hours ago, Ser Wun Wun said:

He'll find out in S8.  At this point, I imagine their S8 romance will play out like this:

Jon/Dany can't get married immediately because the North is under attack when they get there.  Jon finds out about his parentage before any marriage takes place.  He's horrified and pulls away from Dany (without telling her why, I'd imagine).....then he finds out Dany is pregnant.  The show has kept her 'I will bear no living child until...' prophecy for a reason imo.

At that point, Jon's dilemma is:  Do I knowingly commit incest and marry my Aunt, or do I become the father of a bastard child?  Human heart in conflict with itself and all that jazz.  

Pretty sure he'll marry her in that scenario.  Then one of them dies, Dany in childbirth or Jon in battle.  I'd like it if they both lived, but it's hard to be that optimistic with this series.    

The show didn't keep the "bear no living child" part of the prophecy, it was dropped in season 1 and retconed in season 6 without any "until".

Aunt/Nephew is not incest in Westeros.

[Karmarni]

My take-away for the showrunners is:

1. They know how the principal main cast will end the show. If a character's ending per GRRM didn't work for them, they aren't doing it and will alter it. Sliding scale on how altered. However, consider my point #2 also.

2. Their 'main' characters - Starks / Lannisters / Dany will have a similar, though likely not exact, ending to the books. If a principal main cast character shares an ending with a Stark, Lannister or Dany, they will be their supporting character at the end.

Like everything else, the show is dumbing the story down. So a cold progressing to hot arc for Jon and Dany seems within the show's realm. Will they find out they're related? Hell, yes. GRRM likes his Targaryens. He likes them convolutedly related and how that affects them and others around them. So, no doubt they will learn that they have a familial relationship too.

How it matters to the story, the intertwined Targaryen history for Jon and Dany, that's what is open to show meddling. It will be viewer easy to understand and they'll make it forefront, I'd say. Not that I agree, or even really like the way GRRM plays with his Targs, btw.

[Larger than Average Finger]

I am sill perplexed by the hatred of the producers of the show.

Martin has had 20 Years to think about this story, and over 5 to release one book, and he cannot make himself do it.

If we were waiting for him to progress the story, we might get 2 episodes in time for the 2024 Fall season.

 

[Ser Wun Wun]

6 hours ago, farerb said:

The show didn't keep the "bear no living child" part of the prophecy, it was dropped in season 1 and retconed in season 6 without any "until".

Aunt/Nephew is not incest in Westeros.

She says it with the "until" part to Khal Moro in S6:  Start at 4:08

I am aware of the 2 (or so) aunt/nephew marriages in the Stark line....but the idea that Aunt/Nephew marriages is therefore not incestuous/weird to anyone based on those 2 incidents and won't freak Jon the fuck out is just ludicrous to me.  

Jon Snow finds out he's banged his aunt and is like, 'whatever, doesn't count'. 

[Farerb]

7 hours ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

I am sill perplexed by the hatred of the producers of the show.

Martin has had 20 Years to think about this story, and over 5 to release one book, and he cannot make himself do it.

If we were waiting for him to progress the story, we might get 2 episodes in time for the 2024 Fall season.

 

Nobody expected them to wait. People are mostly bothered by D&D about how their characterization is off, how they interchange characters so lightly even though it doesn't make sense, and how they reverse the themes of the book because instead of telling a good story, they prefer to shock the viewers with violence, sex and rape.

[Drago]

Hello Friends,

In my opinion GRRM has already finished the WOW and possibly even started the next Book. I don't see him releasing WOW until season seven is over and possibly half way through season 8 or even the end. It would ruin it for the show and people would lose interest and it would be an injustice to release it after all that HBO has done for the series. I am not a book reader myself and if it wasn't for the fact that HBO got the rights I never would have heard of the series at all. People who think that the show is going in a different direction because HBO has said so should not believe all they are told. I would bet that GRRM is still directing HBO in a certain direction so it marries up with the books. Yes they have combined characters storylines left others out Changed characters stories all together but the core story should be the same. That's how I see it otherwise what would have been the point for GRRM to have his story changed to such an extent that its not his any more.

 

[Farerb]

2 hours ago, Drago said:

Hello Friends,

In my opinion GRRM has already finished the WOW and possibly even started the next Book. I don't see him releasing WOW until season seven is over and possibly half way through season 8 or even the end. It would ruin it for the show and people would lose interest and it would be an injustice to release it after all that HBO has done for the series.

So the show ruining it for the books, which made the show exist in the first place, is OK?! Do people not realize what an adaptation even means anymore? How did the show was successful when it was actually based on books? How did the books not ruin the show then?!

2 hours ago, Drago said:

I am not a book reader myself and if it wasn't for the fact that HBO got the rights I never would have heard of the series at all. People who think that the show is going in a different direction because HBO has said so should not believe all they are told. I would bet that GRRM is still directing HBO in a certain direction so it marries up with the books.

Actually he hasn't been involved in the series since season 5 and he said that D&D can do whatever they want and he can't do anything about it. If he had had any control, Dorne would have been different and Sansa wouldn't have been raped.

2 hours ago, Drago said:

Yes they have combined characters storylines left others out Changed characters stories all together but the core story should be the same.

You pretty much contradicted yourself with this sentence. A story is not just a checklist of plot points and the endgame. If that was the case then why don't they just reveal those and be done with that? A story is characterization, context and themes. The journey is as important as the endgame, even more.

2 hours ago, Drago said:

That's how I see it otherwise what would have been the point for GRRM to have his story changed to such an extent that its not his any more.

He doesn't have his story changed. D&D hack his story until it is not his anymore, because they rather have their preferred characters have the plots of other characters (Jon instead of Stannis, Tyrion instead of Dany\Barristan\Quentyn) or change the plot of main characters to serve secondary characters (Sansa is not worthy of her own plot from the books because "there's this story line with Ramsay" and he's so obviously more important than her so she is put in there instead of Jeyne).

I'm sorry but you don't get GRRM's story, you get D&D's fanfiction. If you want GRRM's story, read the books.