Do you think Daenerys and Jon Snow

[MoIaF]

On 11/16/2016 at 2:03 AM, Faint said:

The question really is whether Daenerys will find out or, rather, whether Jon will tell her.  Obviously Jon will find out.  I have a hard time envisioning a scenario in which Jon does not find out about the biggest mystery in the series since it concerns himself.  I see little reason for Martin to go down that route since it would lessen the impact of the whole thing. 

I think this is an interesting questions. For sure Jon finds out and we'll see the his struggle with the revelations. But who will tell Dany if not Jon? Would he keep it from her?

Although, the Jon we've known wouldn't be like to keep that kind of secret he has changed and we don't know the effect his relationship with Dany will have on him. 

[Queen of Procrastination]

1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Battle of the Wall and Blackwater were basically a siege in both cases. Pre battle scenes, during the battle was a time to adress some of the moments. Hardhome was ambush and it's hard to let people interact and especially since zombies are coming on them. BOtB was classic battle on the field but we had in the episode character moments so I disagree.

We had Davos and Tormund pre battle, Jon and Mel, Jon and Sansa or meeting with Ramsay. Not all fight sequences should be and will be same. Not everytime will be people interacting in the middle of the battle and having time to chat. dany and Tyrion pre battle moments, Dany and Masters parlay.

Hardhome too had plenty of character developments. Karsi is a good example how very litle screen time can serve well and explore a rather minor character. Wun Wun, Edd, Loboda, Tormund and Jon. We saw things from their perspective and valuable character developments but Hardhome was literally showcasig power of white walkers, massacre and ambush of wildlings.

You canb't really compare Battle of the Blackwater Bay and the all with Hardhome and BotB. They had pre battle scenes, but of course unlike Blackwater and the Wall no during the battle moments.

I agree with what you're saying about the pre-battle moments and I get what you're  saying about Hardhome, but they could have done things differently during the BotB. They could've cut back to the camp (or wherever the women were staying) and shown us Sansa's reactions. In the Inside the Episod they could've drawn a contrast to the Battle of Blackwater and pointed out how much she's changed etc. Many people were a bit confused, because they didn't know if Sansa knew that the KotV beforehand, so they could have given us a short conversation between her and LF at some point. I would also have liked to see Mel's reactions during the battle. She seems to believe now that Jon is the PtwP, so how was she feeling when things were going badly for him. Was she loosing hope? Was she praying? Etc.

This kind of stuff doesn't need that much screentime. They could have cut from Jon's or Tormund's fighting for 1 Minute in order to show us these things. I think this kind of stuff would've made the battle more interesting, but that's just my personal taste.

[Le Cygne]

As for Dany and Jon finding out, it would be interesting if they found out they were family before they met, show how this plays out. What would they do differently if they knew. How would this knowledge change the way they rule.

(And finding out they are family as a pleasant surprise for them, rather than some sordid soap opera.)

[Sir Matthis Light]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

As for Dany and Jon finding out, it would have been interesting if they found out they were family before they met, show how this plays out. What would they do differently if they knew. How would this knowledge change the way they rule.

For Jon I doubt it would change how he rules the North. He maybe Rhaegars biological son, but he Ned son through and through and he going to continue to allow the moral code that he taught him to guide him.

For Dany I also doubt this revelation would doubt how she rule. I'm pretty sure she going to be happy she has at least one relative left in the world and she falling for him but she has dragons and he doesn't so...

[Lord Friendzone]

59 minutes ago, Sir Matthis Light said:

For Jon I doubt it would change how he rules the North. He maybe Rhaegars biological son, but he Ned son through and through and he going to continue to allow the moral code that he taught him to guide him.

For Dany I also doubt this revelation would doubt how she rule. I'm pretty sure she going to be happy she has at least one relative left in the world and she falling for him but she has dragons and he doesn't so...

True. Better is to let them develop relartionship and then reveal their connection. It adds drama, tension and angst to their relationship and those around them. Also, Jon basically pledged himself to her and now realizing he has potentially a stronger claim or better than he could've ever imagined. How will Dany react to it or Jon? They could equals as character even with kneeling but then realizing this, also sleeping with his aunt wil become an issue for him.

3 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

I agree with what you're saying about the pre-battle moments and I get what you're  saying about Hardhome, but they could have done things differently during the BotB. They could've cut back to the camp (or wherever the women were staying) and shown us Sansa's reactions. In the Inside the Episod they could've drawn a contrast to the Battle of Blackwater and pointed out how much she's changed etc. Many people were a bit confused, because they didn't know if Sansa knew that the KotV beforehand, so they could have given us a short conversation between her and LF at some point. I would also have liked to see Mel's reactions during the battle. She seems to believe now that Jon is the PtwP, so how was she feeling when things were going badly for him. Was she loosing hope? Was she praying? Etc.

This kind of stuff doesn't need that much screentime. They could have cut from Jon's or Tormund's fighting for 1 Minute in order to show us these things. I think this kind of stuff would've made the battle more interesting, but that's just my personal taste.

We can say Sansa was getting for the Vale and LF help, also it made dramatic finale to the battle itself. Also, battle was to showcase the sheer brutality of it and how it is chaotic. Neither of previous battles deal with that fact and it was always from characters perspective.

Miguel Sapocnik called it that he wanted this battle to be result of hero being at fault and making mistakes, going through the field like a soldier and becoming a killing machine. Very interesting points from him, besides funny moments of commentary betwen him, Sophie and Kit. So, Jon being a dumbass was on purpose of him making mistakes and not being traditionaly good at everything... and win the battle cleanly.

It was battle really focuse on aspect of it, not POV from other character but maybe Sansa could've been included. Maybe, also battle was centered around Jon and Ramsay. But also Sansa, So, I understand your point with it. I would imagine, if Meereen wan't part of it, maybe they could've done something else. Battle of Blackwater and the Wall were whole episode devoted to it. Don't forget abou that.

[Queen of Procrastination]

29 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

 

Miguel Sapocnik called it that he wanted this battle to be result of hero being at fault and making mistakes, going through the field like a soldier and becoming a killing machine. Very interesting points from him, besides funny moments of commentary betwen him, Sophie and Kit. So, Jon being a dumbass was on purpose of him making mistakes and not being traditionaly good at everything... and win the battle cleanly.

I don't think that this is in general a bad idea in order to subvert troops, but the problem with that is that

1. They've done this with Jon repeatedly. It wasn't the first time the show has portrayed him as a dumbass. This already happened back in Season 2 and in other seasons they've pretty much excluded all of Jon's capibilities as an negotiator and administrator. Or in general as someone who's good at anything beyond fighting. So, Jon being competent at military strategy would have been a nice change for once. If the leaks are true the show will continue with this trend next season.

2. It gives less credibility to the KitN scene. I don't have something against Jon becoming KitN per se and I believe it will happen in the books as well just in a different way. I kind find some reasons why the Northern Lords might prefer Jon over Sansa or Bran, though I think the scene would've worked far better, if he hadn't been portryed in a dumbass in the episode before. 

[Sir Matthis Light]

51 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

True. Better is to let them develop relartionship and then reveal their connection. It adds drama, tension and angst to their relationship and those around them. Also, Jon basically pledged himself to her and now realizing he has potentially a stronger claim or better than he could've ever imagined. How will Dany react to it or Jon? They could equals as character even with kneeling but then realizing this, also sleeping with his aunt wil become an issue for him.

I would find it very odd any very out of character for Jon to be ok with sleeping with Dany after learning the truth about himself. It just doesn't seem likely in Jon moral code that he would be ok with it k nowing he banged his aunt. I also would like to see the other Starks reaction to them hearing Jons "involvement" with this Targaryen dragon Queen, pre and post R+L=J reveal. D&D has got to give Sansa something to say about Jon going to meet with Dany, her brother kidnapped and raped "their" aunt  and her father murdered their grandfather and uncle. It would be very out of character for Sansa to be like "Ok Jon have a nice trip south trying to win Daenerys Targaryen help in the fight for the dawn!!"

[Lord Friendzone]

24 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

I don't think that this is in general a bad idea in order to subvert troops, but the problem with that is that

1. They've done this with Jon repeatedly. It wasn't the first time the show has portrayed him as a dumbass. This already happened back in Season 2 and in other seasons they've pretty much excluded all of Jon's capibilities as an negotiator and administrator. Or in general as someone who's good at anything beyond fighting. So, Jon being competent at military strategy would have been a nice change for once. If the leaks are true the show will continue with this trend next season.

2. It gives less credibility to the KitN scene. I don't have something against Jon becoming KitN per se and I believe it will happen in the books as well just in a different way. I kind find some reasons why the Northern Lords might prefer Jon over Sansa or Bran, though I think the scene would've worked far better, if he hadn't been portryed in a dumbass in the episode before. 

1. Season 2 was butchery all around for others. In other seasons Jon displayed negotiations skills and talent besides fighting. Next season is no different. Jon is man of compromise above all, sacrifice. His wons if we can call that are earned and hard fought, he a lost every time

2. It doesn't really. They saw Jon running to save Rickon after sansa gave up on him, something Ned would never do no matter what and that whats make Jon Jon. He's good at heart, sometimes at fault and that's why he's Stark, no matter his heritage. To you it shows dumbass, to them courage, bravery and will to fight against opponent that outnumbered them. Jon trying to save Rickon was absolutely in character and anything else would be against it. Jon makes mistakes and pays for them, much more than Dany for example or others like Tyrion. 

Look at Dany, she's trying to save someone she loves as Jon and Jorah, essentialy making a mistake by allowing them have a  dragon. Doesn't make her dumbass. It's in character. Jon would never watch with cold blood seeing Rickon. I don't know how many times do I have to explain it. It's easy to blame him as a dumbass and not looking deeper into it.

13 minutes ago, Sir Matthis Light said:

I would find it very odd any very out of character for Jon to be ok with sleeping with Dany after learning the truth about himself. It just doesn't seem likely in Jon moral code that he would be ok with it k nowing he banged his aunt. I also would like to see the other Starks reaction to them hearing Jons "involvement" with this Targaryen dragon Queen, pre and post R+L=J reveal. D&D has got to give Sansa something to say about Jon going to meet with Dany, her brother kidnapped and raped "their" aunt  and her father murdered their grandfather and uncle. It would be very out of character for to be like "Ok Jon have a nice trip south trying to win Daenerys Targaryen help in the fight for the dawn!!"

Sansa in he leaks says something about or is not in agreement with this mission.

They don't have pre-established relationship and in the books Jon thought about banging his sister or something to that context while being with Ygritte, They had conversation. But yeah, it would offer him dilemma what to do.

Don't think it's Arya's, Bran's or Sansa's business if he falls in love with her or not. Of course giving up title KITN could be. Targaryens are famously known for incest or relations between family, so to them it will be quite standard thing.

[Leticia Stark]

31 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It doesn't really. They saw Jon running to save Rickon after sansa gave up on him, something Ned would never do no matter what and that whats make Jon Jon. He's good at heart, sometimes at fault and that's why he's Stark, no matter his heritage. To you it shows dumbass, to them courage, bravery and will to fight against opponent that outnumbered them. Jon trying to save Rickon was absolutely in character and anything else would be against it. Jon makes mistakes and pays for them, much more than Dany for example or others like Tyrion. 

Thank you! I cringe everytime someone calls Jon stupid for running after Rickon when we all would do the same for a sibling. At least, I would.

For Jon, that battle was much more about saving Rickon than taking Winterfell back.

[Lord Friendzone]

Just now, Leticia Stark said:

Thank you! I cringe everytime someone calls Jon stupid for running after Rickon when we all would do the same for a sibling. At least, I would.

For Jon, that battle was much more about saving Rickon than taking Winterfell back.

We look at it from viewer's perspective but not from characters and what he stands for. This is where Jon and Dany are similar. They would do anything for those they love.true. Jon even in the tent told Sansa he would never let Ramsay harm her and how could they give up Rickon. 

He lost Ned, Robb and wanted to go helped them but in the end choose to stay at the Wall. When he had chance to help Rickon or try to, how would it be if he just stand there and watch. He had to run even tho it break the formation. It prove to be a mistake from a tactical point of view but a human and reletable act.

Him going after Rickon must've showed Northerners what he stands for and that comes in these times before legitimacy. For us nonsense but for them very important aspect.

[Queen of Procrastination]

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

1. Season 2 was butchery all around for others. In other seasons Jon displayed negotiations skills and talent besides fighting. Next season is no different. Jon is man of compromise above all, sacrifice. His wons if we can call that are earned and hard fought, he a lost every time

2. It doesn't really. They saw Jon running to save Rickon after sansa gave up on him, something Ned would never do no matter what and that whats make Jon Jon. He's good at heart, sometimes at fault and that's why he's Stark, no matter his heritage. To you it shows dumbass, to them courage, bravery and will to fight against opponent that outnumbered them. Jon trying to save Rickon was absolutely in character and anything else would be against it. Jon makes mistakes and pays for them, much more than Dany for example or others like Tyrion. 

Look at Dany, she's trying to save someone she loves as Jon and Jorah, essentialy making a mistake by allowing them have a  dragon. Doesn't make her dumbass. It's in character. Jon would never watch with cold blood seeing Rickon. I don't know how many times do I have to explain it. It's easy to blame him as a dumbass and not looking deeper into it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

We look at it from viewer's perspective but not from characters and what he stands for. This is where Jon and Dany are similar. They would do anything for those they love.true. Jon even in the tent told Sansa he would never let Ramsay harm her and how could they give up Rickon. 

He lost Ned, Robb and wanted to go helped them but in the end choose to stay at the Wall. When he had chance to help Rickon or try to, how would it be if he just stand there and watch. He had to run even tho it break the formation. It prove to be a mistake from a tactical point of view but a human and reletable act.

Him going after Rickon must've showed Northerners what he stands for and that comes in these times before legitimacy. For us nonsense but for them very important aspect.

1. I think we have to agree to disagree here. When I compare Book!Jon to Show!Jon I think that the show has butchered this character. I believe that they've dumped him down a lot and the that KitN seen would have worked better if this hadn't happened. He hasn't been butchered as much as some other charalters like Jaime or Ellaria, but I don't think they have done a good job with his character.

2. I only used the word "dumbass", because you used it in your previous comment and I was replying to that exact quote. I agree that it's in character for Jon to try to save Rickon and this is natural many people would react in that way. However, the problem I have with it that the episode emphasises too much how he falls into a trap. If they had excluded Sansa's "don't do what he wants you to do" comment that would've been less obvious. On me as a viewer it looked like they wanted to portray Sansa as smart (though her withholding the KotV actually wasn't, but that's another matter) and achieved this by portraying other characters in a way that many viewers would see as being less smart. I saw some reviews with headlines like "Sansa is smart and Jon is dumb". I agree that being emotionally compromised doesn't make you stupid, but unfortunately many viewers don't view it that way and maybe they would have viewed his action differently if Sansa hadn't warned him about falling into a trap. Making Ramsay less competent would also have helped in that regard.

Furthermore, Jon and Sansa knew for months that Ramsay had Rickon, but they never made any plans to get him back? What did they think was gonna happen to him in all the time they travelled around the North? How exactly did they want to get him back? I believe that they didn't assume that Ramsay would just let him go.. So they could have addresed this question earlier.  

The show has unfortunately a record of portraying honour as something stupid and not really showing us the advantages of being honourable. The Lannisters and Boltons win, because they act dishounorable and the Starks loose because they act honourable. Now the books seem to go into that direction in the beginning, but then we got see Northern Lords beeing loyal to the Starks, because Ned was so honourable. Unfortunately, this is completely different on the show and the Northern Lords don't care about Ned anymore. Ramsay on the other hand gets support despite being cruel and dishonourable. He acts smart (at least that's how many viewers perceive it) and only looses because LF (one of the most dishonourable characters on the show) comes to save the day. So for many viewers it looks like being honourable is always stupid and doesn't have good consequences and being dishonorable is intelligent and makes you succesful. It would be nice to see the posititve consequences of honour for once. Sure him going after Rickon must have shown the Northern Lords that he stands for, but these are the same Northern Lords who didn't seem to remember Ned's honourable behaviour anymore and who didn't seem to care about Rickon being Ramsay's capitve. 

[Sir Matthis Light]

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Sansa in he leaks says something about or is not in agreement with this mission.

They don't have pre-established relationship and in the books  1) Jon thought about banging his sister or something to that context while being with Ygritte, They had conversation. But yeah, it would offer him dilemma what to do.

2) Don't think it's Arya's, Bran's or Sansa's business if he falls in love with her or not. Of course giving up title KITN could be. Targaryens are famously known for incest or relations between family, so to them it will be quite standard thing.

1) Really, do you have the quote? It could be one of those foreshadowing moments you told me about.

and

2) You're totally right its is none of their business who their brother and new King falls in love with, but still she a Targaryen. They all know the story what they did to their family. Outta all of them I think Bran would be the most cool with him hooking up with Dany, due to his knowledge of their true relationship. But I'm fully expecting both of his sisters to have some problems with Dany.( Mind you I don't think they gonna have an issue with her for long )

[Queen of Procrastination]

4 minutes ago, Sir Matthis Light said:

1) Really, do you have the quote? It could be one of those foreshadowing moments you told me about.

and

2) You're totally right its is none of their business who their brother and new King falls in love with, but still she a Targaryen. They all know the story what they did to their family. Outta all of them I think Bran would be the most cool with him hooking up with Dany, due to his knowledge of their true relationship. But I'm fully expecting both of his sisters to have some problems with Dany.( Mind you I don't think they gonna have an issue with her for long )

1. It's from ASOS Jon III when Jon asks Ygritte if she's been a virgin. 

Quote

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

"Longspear is not my brother."

"He's of my village  You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

"Craster weds his daughters," Jon pointed out.

This quote has sometimes been used by JonArya shippers or maybe also JonSa shippers as forshadowing for this relationship, but maybe it acutally forshadowed something else. 

2. Yes, I agree Bran would probably be the most cool with it. I could see both Sansa and Arya having a problem with it due to what Aerys did to the Starks and maybe Sansa also for political reasons in the beginning. Maybe Sansa doesn't like that Jon is looking for an alliance with Dany and thinks that Jon and Dany got too close. 

[Lord Friendzone]

48 minutes ago, Sir Matthis Light said:

1) Really, do you have the quote? It could be one of those foreshadowing moments you told me about.

and

2) You're totally right its is none of their business who their brother and new King falls in love with, but still she a Targaryen. They all know the story what they did to their family. Outta all of them I think Bran would be the most cool with him hooking up with Dany, due to his knowledge of their true relationship. But I'm fully expecting both of his sisters to have some problems with Dany.( Mind you I don't think they gonna have an issue with her for long )

1. "Her shaggy mop of her hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, bt most of that was layers of fur  and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya."

Jon VI, A Clash of Kings

He's imagining Arya and how would Ygritte looked like his sister. kinda weird to magine your sister this way and maybe his Targ genes creeping out.

"She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be,with all the furs and skins she wore."

Jon II, A Storm of Swords

 

As for their convo. Ygritte asked him during their cave scene. if Jon would ever bed his sister and he evades this question by answering.

"Who was he?"

"A boy at a feast, five years past. He'd come traiding with his brothers and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak.When he came back to try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once."

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved, He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. "That's a vile. Would you bed your sister?"

"Longspear's not your brother."

Jon III, A Storm of Swords

He's not exactly repulsed by this idea. Given evidence how he's imagining Arya and all that. Well, his genes might be playing a part.

2. Dany is hardly responsible for the actions of her father. What he did was undeniable and murder basically. Bran will likely told them true nature of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship.

[Sir Matthis Light]

Ha, I suck at noticing foreshadowing moments but I'm taking this as one XD.

[Lord Friendzone]

It's fine, a lot of us use to re-read the books to notice it. When I read them for the first time, I kinda missed Red Wedding clues but when you re-read it there you go.just with other stuff and believe me here on westeros.org there are plenty of people with better skills at skills but even they don't know or notice everything on the first read or even second or thir.

But beauty of GRRM books is that some foreshadowing is plain and simple or a bit deeper and you gotta dig for it. Foreshadowing itself is one of my favourite aspects and trying to connect dots.

[Le Cygne]

GRRM commented on this at a recent con. It's Arya that he's holding up as his ideal there. And Arya is very different from Dany.

There's more here...

[GravyFace]

On November 21, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Sir Matthis Light said:

I would find it very odd any very out of character for Jon to be ok with sleeping with Dany after learning the truth about himself. It just doesn't seem likely in Jon moral code that he would be ok with it k nowing he banged his aunt. I also would like to see the other Starks reaction to them hearing Jons "involvement" with this Targaryen dragon Queen, pre and post R+L=J reveal. D&D has got to give Sansa something to say about Jon going to meet with Dany, her brother kidnapped and raped "their" aunt  and her father murdered their grandfather and uncle. It would be very out of character for Sansa to be like "Ok Jon have a nice trip south trying to win Daenerys Targaryen help in the fight for the dawn!!"

There's uncle/niece marriages in the Stark family tree. Why would Jon be so opposed to it, if it's been his family history. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Jon might find out at the end of the season, after they have "relations". As far as his family goes, I do not see Sansa or Arya approving as she is a Targ and her Dad was a monster. The question I am wondering is, what will the reaction by by them when they find out Jon is not a Stark and is a Targ, therefore not the rightful King of the North and not a "Stark" in name after all?

[Sir Matthis Light]

2 hours ago, GravyFace said:

There's uncle/niece marriages in the Stark family tree. Why would Jon be so opposed to it, if it's been his family history. 

There could be some reasons:

1) We know D&D likes to shorten the history like they did with Jaeherys II by omitting him and making his father Aegon V Daenerys grandfather. So this really can't be relied upon( Tho they make mention of King Theon "The Hungry Wolf" in the lore videos, so who knows  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯    )

2)  Cregan seemed to have had a bit of a succession crisis after the death of his firstborn in Dorne. With his next sons and grandsons in the succession dropping like flies due to natural causes, harsh winters, and Dagon Greyjoy Ironborn steel, these halfuncles/nieces marriages could have had a precedents( I'm I using this word right? Lol ) to them, such as trying to keep the claim to Winterfell within the family and could be rare.   

2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Jon might find out at the end of the season, after they have "relations". As far as his family goes, I do not see Sansa or Arya approving as she is a Targ and her Dad was a monster. The question I am wondering is, what will the reaction by by them when they find out Jon is not a Stark and is a Targ, therefore not the rightful King of the North and not a "Stark" in name after all?

Most likely shock but he is of BOTH StarkandTargaeyen lines and the true defacto leader of ALL the 7 Kingdoms so they should really be cool with it. The undead are coming, and their gonna have to come to terms it ASAP lol. With all the sh*t that happen to the family I'm sure they( Sansa/Arya ) are still going to love Jon no matter what, he fought hard to place them back into Winterfell.