Do you think Daenerys and Jon Snow

[Evarei]

Well then, Jon freaking out  over banging his own aunt (with Daenerys being all cool about it) on top of learning who his parents were is going to be some great drama. Now I want it more than any WW invasion. Hope they play it well in s8.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Evarei said:

Well then, Jon freaking out  over banging his own aunt (with Daenerys being all cool about it) on top of learning who his parents were is going to be some great drama. Now I want it more than any WW invasion. Hope they play it well in s8.

Yup. Shock and ratings, not logic and certainly not any sort of adaptation. I agree. 

[The Fattest Leech]

19 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, same thing is happening to her. This is not a good thing for the women at all.

Still in the car so pardon spelling errors. 

Even in the books when crazy aunt Lysa tries to marry current Sansa to Sweetrobin it is done because crazy aunt Lysa is crazy and Lysa wants to put her son in a power position. Sansa doesn't want that. 

[Lord Friendzone]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Actually, George does define in the books that incest includes more than just brother and sister. Aside from every religion being against it, (George says the Targs think of themselves as above all gods), it is actually defined in both the main books and the World book to include things like aunts and more  and general "clan kin". George is using the idea of incest as a downfall of a dynasty, Lannisters included, and this has been shown throughout real history. 

I'm on my phone or I'd share the quotes. 

The show does incest for shock and ratings... just like the never ending twincest 

One time downfall and the other time rise. Again, cousins or aunt/nephew is not an incest. 

There is a precedent for these marriages or relationships in both Stark and Targ trees. Whether it ended badly or not is for another debate, it happened. Most of all it drives the story forward, look at Jaime and Cersei. Jon was always gonna have a relationship with his family relative whether it was Arya or Dany. Sansa yeah not counting that, as it really doesn't have any solid evidence  besides show kinda having fun with it.

[Evarei]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yup. Shock and ratings, not logic and certainly not any sort of adaptation. I agree. 

lol if you think Jon x Daenerys isn't happening in the books. Well they may not be happening because there won't be any books.

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Lord Friendzone said:

One time downfall and the other time rise. Again, cousins or aunt/nephew is not an incest. 

There is a precedent for these marriages or relationships in both Stark and Targ trees. Whether it ended badly or not is for another debate, it happened. Most of all it drives the story forward, look at Jaime and Cersei. Jon was always gonna have a relationship with his family relative whether it was Arya or Dany. Sansa yeah not counting that, as it really doesn't have any solid evidence  besides show kinda having fun with it.

Again, it is in the books as this is incest. Do a search in the search site because I am in the car and can't right now. 

[Lord Friendzone]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Yup. Shock and ratings, not logic and certainly not any sort of adaptation. I agree. 

It makes for a good storytelling. Drama, personal conflict, emotional and human struggle. It would bring it for both of them and actually make a sense. Not just mindless action. Just like any conversation and the got a lot ot talk about.

As far as adaptation goes, they're ahead of the books and in this concrete scenario books are heading this way too.

It won't end well for them. That's my prediction.

[Evarei]

Martin's original idea was Jon x Arya for pete's sake. And they were attracted to each other even when thinking themselves to be siblings. The reveal of Jon's parentage simply alleviated some angst. So it's farfetched to think he wouldn't do Jon x Daenerys because he has specifically used sibling incest as a bad thing.

[Evarei]

5 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It makes for a good storytelling. Drama, personal conflict, emotional and human struggle. It would bring it for both of them and actually make a sense. Not just mindless action. Just like any conversation and the got a lot ot talk about.

As far as adaptation goes, they're ahead of the books and in this concrete scenario books are heading this way too.

It won't end well for them. That's my prediction.

yeah I fail to see how any of it is illogical. Two attractive people find common ground, bond over traumatic events and come together, then learn about their blood relation and at least one of them is conflicted and distressed because it wasn't instilled in him that intermarriages are normal and required to keep blood 'pure'. Isn't Martin all about a human heart in conflict with itself? Drama and angst define his story.

Jon and Daenerys happening has been in the works since book 1. So if they happen on the show, those who say it's illogical basically call the books' plot development illogical.

[Lord Friendzone]

9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Again, it is in the books as this is incest. Do a search in the search site because I am in the car and can't right now. 

Been a long time since I read books. Look up to it again and you're kinda right.

But it's legal neverthless and especially when you got fire breathing dragons to support it. Not to mention storytelling purposes and where are we heading in both books and the show. They know broad stroke of the story and key events. George is essentially writing about human struggle and this one is clear example of it. What will they do? How it affects both of them going forward and those around them? It could end in any way but it's a logical step supported by foreshadowing. Story full of incest.

[The Fattest Leech]

23 minutes ago, Evarei said:

Martin's original idea was Jon x Arya for pete's sake. And they were attracted to each other even when thinking themselves to be siblings. The reveal of Jon's parentage simply alleviated some angst. So it's farfetched to think he wouldn't do Jon x Daenerys because he has specifically used sibling incest as a bad thing.

You do know that George said that the outline was basically full of shit, right? He actually said he was "making shit up" and that "characters changed along the way". And if you really analyze that outline then you will see that virtaully nothing is the same, right? Cersei was not even in it, so chances are, Cersei was invented along the way and the incest was treansferred to that relationship because Jaime was supposed to be the king.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, very much so. In the books it happens for TERRIBLE reasons anywhere it happens. The Targs have been doing it for "blood purity" which George thinks is an insulting joke in real life. He is making an example out of them by giving them a long, slow burn. 

Incest in the books is a lesson in darkness. Incest on the show is a lesson in ratings because there is no rhyme or reason to it. 

By the way, love the avatar 

Yes, it is portrayed as a bad thing in both: TV and books.

Thanks!

[Evarei]

9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You do know that George said that the outline was basically full of shit, right? He actually said he was "making shit up" and that "characters changed along the way". And if you really analyze that outline then you will see that virtaully nothing is the same, right? Cersei was not even in it, so chances are, Cersei was invented along the way and the incest was treansferred to that relationship because Jaime was supposed to be the king.

Or he was just tryng to 'save face' when it got leaked. It doesn't matter that he changed a lot. What matters is that it came up to him in the first place.

[The Fattest Leech]

Incest =/= romance.

The Targs did it because they saw them selves above the rules and laws and gods, etc, because of blood purity, blood of the dragon thing. Even back in Valyria it was really mostly/only practiced by the highest ruling houses.

Here are just a few quotes from various books in the series:

• The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.
  This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.
• Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries...yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.
• the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Jaime the Kingslayer.
• Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.
• "Joffrey the Illborn," one of the Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."

  "Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens."

   

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, Evarei said:

Or he was just tryng to 'save face' when it got leaked. It doesn't matter that he changed a lot. What matters is that it came up to him in the first place.

Gonna have to call to George "saving face'. The man has never done that and is more apt to telling you to "keep reading" if he doesn't want to spoil anything. And his answer to the outline changes were very detailed. He realized how the first arrangement of plot and characters didn't fit the story so he changed it. Besides, he only had 170 pages written at the time of the outline. So, are Jon and Tyrion gonna fit over Arya... because that was in the outline as well and if George came up with it, then I guess it's gonna happen?

Sorry, but that reason "he came up with it" doesn't hold water at all. And remember, the entire ending was blacked out so NOBODY knows the ending.

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Incest =/= romance.

The Targs did it because they saw them selves above the rules and laws and gods, etc, because of blood purity, blood of the dragon thing. Even back in Valyria it was really mostly/only practiced by the highest ruling houses.

Interesting interview, thanks for sharing that. They thought the rules didn't apply to them.

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Interesting interview, thanks for sharing that. They thought the rules didn't apply to them.

Yup. When you are above the gods, you have no god. And then there is incest practicing Craster who is said to have his own gods, and we know all about that now, don't we

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It would be worse if Rhaegar had Jon with another Targ female. This way it's relatively fine.

Even uncle/niece marriage is in Stark tree, isn't it? Cousin/cousin or aunt/nephew is far more acceptable and not an incest according to laws.

Well, sure but the reason for a lot of the problems that lead to the Rebellion of Robert, Ned, Jon and Hoster was that, in Aerys II's despair, Rheagar had no sister to marry or he would have married her so they sent Robert's parents, lord and lady Baratheon to Essos to find a suitable wife but none was found and they died on the way back. Elia Martell was chosen because the Dornish had Targ Blood in them from the Union which helped ignite the Blackfyre rebellion. So, they tried to find the closest female, legit, child baring female they could. They look for and seek that incest crap. That is messed up. They, the Targs are messed up.

One recorded half uncle/half neice, I believe it was in the time of the yet to be written Dunk and Egg story The She-Wolves of Winterfell and it was where 3-4 Lord Starks died in close time to one another and lots of lady Stark Widows and a direct female heir. The marriage was to "seal the breach" but it was a drastic measure for them and not "practiced" and certainly not "practiced gleefully" most of the time like the Targs did.

 

[Commander Jon Snow]

Even if incest is 'bad', that still doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. Hell, Jon and Dany being related is the one reason I never considered this relationship to be cliche. In the end, I think there's been a solid amount of foreshadowing to the two getting together at some point in the story

[Le Cygne]

I think the better story would be they come together as family, that's the thing both are missing. She's the only one left (or so she thinks) and he's always felt like an outsider. If the author does bring them together romantically, I'm just saying I think there's going to a tragic element to it. In other words, the incest does matter in the books, and will play a part in the story.