Do you think Daenerys and Jon Snow

[CaptainTheo]

The main reason I'd be uncomfortable about a Dany/Jon hookup is that Jon is very honourable and refuses to father a bastard and only sleeps with Ygritte after being coerced into it and as part of pretending to be on the side of the Wildlings. For him to have a random hookup with Dany, unless they get married first, seems particularly OOC for him. Not so much for Dany.

[Ice Spider]

57 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

If Jon is legit. Dany really has no claim above Jon.

No, your wrong. Direct heirs of the King have precedence to heirs from the prince, sorry. 

[Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

This is an interesting point because it could be a dilemma for Bran as well.  Would it best to tell them pre-war (and put cracks in their relationship thus risking the unity of the several factions) or post-war (and guarantee unity thus giving them the best chance to defeat the Others.  But it would require Bran being somewhat dishonest because he's concealing an important truth)?  What would be the right thing to do in this regard (what would Ned do lol)?  I'm certain Bran will let Jon know at some point, the question is when?

Now I'm somewhat hoping D&D decide to play it like this because there is no clear-cut (right or wrong) answer for Bran.

I am betting this is the course of action D&D will take, and it will leave the "Eww Incest!" people with no legitimate gripes. Dany and Jon in a relationship, not knowing they are related, Dany becoming pregnant, and THEN they learn the truth. That would lead to an incredible plot twist and all kinds of soul searching for Jon. 

[El Guapo]

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

If Jon is legit. Dany really has no claim above Jon.

Daenerys is already the Queen having inherited the crown after the death of King Viserys III.  Jon is certainly welcome to try to press him claim though.

 

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, Ice Spider said:

No, your wrong. Direct heirs of the King have precedence to heirs from the prince, sorry. 

Rheagar was Aery's heir and if Jon is legit, we already know he is Rheagar's son, then he has the claim over Dany. This of course is unknown to Jon, Dany, pretty much everyone alive in Westeros with the exception of Bran but if it becomes known, proven in some way, Jon is the Targaryen with the best claim. His would absolutely outweigh Dany's. Dany's only ambition to come to Westeros is that she thinks it is her from her blood birthright. However, he, may, Just may be ahead of her in that regard.

[Ice Spider]

7 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Rheagar was Aery's heir and if Jon is legit, we already know he is Rheagar's son, then he has the claim over Dany. This of course is unknown to Jon, Dany, pretty much everyone alive in Westeros with the exception of Bran but if it becomes known, proven in some way, Jon is the Targaryen with the best claim. His would absolutely outweigh Dany's. Dany's only ambition to come to Westeros is that she thinks it is her from her blood birthright. However, he, may, Just may be ahead of her in that regard.

No, Again your wrong. Rhaegar was not Aery's heir, Aery's children where Aery's heirs. Using your logic, Stannis would have been heir to the throne when Robert died, but the throne went to Joffrey (who at the time was believed to have been Roberts son). Please stop this silly argument. 

[MoIaF]

8 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Rheagar was Aery's heir and if Jon is legit, we already know he is Rheagar's son, then he has the claim over Dany. This of course is unknown to Jon, Dany, pretty much everyone alive in Westeros with the exception of Bran but if it becomes known, proven in some way, Jon is the Targaryen with the best claim. His would absolutely outweigh Dany's. Dany's only ambition to come to Westeros is that she thinks it is her from her blood birthright. However, he, may, Just may be ahead of her in that regard.

 

18 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

No, Again your wrong. Rhaegar was not Aery's heir, Aery's children where Aery's heirs. Using your logic, Stannis would have been heir to the throne when Robert died, but the throne went to Joffrey (who at the time was believed to have been Roberts son). Please stop this silly argument. 

When Rhaegar died Aerys skipped over Rhaegar's children and named Viserys his heir. Thus the line of succession has been moved. Dany being Viserys' heir has a better claim to the throne than Jon does. Of course this doesn't even take into consideration that Daenerys is a known Targaryen, while Jon is a known bastard of Ned Stark. Many people might not believe Jon's story that he is Rhaegar's son. 

"Power lies where me believe it lies" I would say it lies with a hundred thousand soldiers and three dragons. 

[MoIaF]

This discussion about who is Queen and who is King or who has a better claim is not very relevant of course. None of that will matter once the Wight Walkers invade Westeros and by then Jon and Dany will be together. It matters even less if they have a child, as that child automatically will be the Targaryen heir, they aren't going to fight over something that is going to their child anyway. 

This paring should not have come as a surprise to anyone, it's been pretty clearly telegraphed both in books and on the show. You don't like the incest, read another series. And no incest hasn't been portrayed as bad or good. It's a mixed bag, like everything else in the series. 

[Lord Friendzone]

9 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Daenerys is already the Queen having inherited the crown after the death of King Viserys III.  Jon is certainly welcome to try to press him claim though.

 

 

Last time I checked this stuff Cersei is the Queen, not Dany. She has to take it and this thing being rightful Queen or King is bs. As it was said here, what matters is the military power and not claim or any of that.

[Lord Friendzone]

8 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Rheagar was Aery's heir and if Jon is legit, we already know he is Rheagar's son, then he has the claim over Dany. This of course is unknown to Jon, Dany, pretty much everyone alive in Westeros with the exception of Bran but if it becomes known, proven in some way, Jon is the Targaryen with the best claim. His would absolutely outweigh Dany's. Dany's only ambition to come to Westeros is that she thinks it is her from her blood birthright. However, he, may, Just may be ahead of her in that regard.

Aerys named Viserys his heir, not Aegon or Rhaenys or wouldn't even Jon. It's Aerys -> Viserys and then Dany in this order if we're goijng by their "supposed claim." Besides the fact Jon has absolutely no reason or evidence that he'll be interested in iron throne. Another argument against Jonerys in the trash bag.

14 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

This discussion about who is Queen and who is King or who has a better claim is not very relevant of course. None of that will matter once the Wight Walkers invade Westeros and by then Jon and Dany will be together. It matters even less if they have a child, as that child automatically will be the Targaryen heir, they aren't going to fight over something that is going to their child anyway. 

This paring should not have come as a surprise to anyone, it's been pretty clearly telegraphed both in books and on the show. You don't like the incest, read another series. And no incest hasn't been portrayed as bad or good. It's a mixed bag, like everything else in the series. 

They would have to get married in order for their kid to be legitimate for it because otherwise it's only a bastard.

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Here is another twist, if Jon lives and for some reasons of legality, he is actually Rheagar's true heir and not Dany, then he is King and she is not even Queen unless they marry in some convoluted way. Jon would not have to legitimize him or her depending on potential incest baby (his child would also be his first cousin). Dany would be, well, nothing really, legally that is, in Westeros.

Daenerys has  royal parents and grandparents, whereas Jon is only descended from royalty through his father. Even if his father married Lyanna, it's far from certain that the legitimacy of the marriage would be accepted. And, Viserys became Crown Prince, following the death of Rhaegar, and Daenerys was his heir, so her claim is the stronger one.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 8. 1. 2017 at 9:32 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Jon would never marry Dany as a result of embracing his Targ side, following their traditions. That would be the last thing he would do. First of all, even if he is a targ, he has not been raised as one, so he' will not be like an ordinary Targ. Never. Ever. He is Stark in heart. And if he married Dany it would not be for this reason. Just imagine Jon saying: "Ok, now I'm a Targ, I have to behave the way targs do". Can you? I just can't. And among the Targ traditions, this one is just the worst he would choose. He'd not do that to "be a Targ". And I highly doubt marrying between relatives is something that he has in his blood and now will appear out of a sudden, LOL. Not even all Targs did that...

Jon already in the books is having what you can describe as romantic thoughts about his own sister or close to it. What I said is that he would realize if he's a truly legit Targ, not Stark. Means he has to embrace it riding a dragon, connect to his other side of his heritage and pair that with already established canon of him not be against it during conversation with Ygritte. He's constantly reminded throught the books he's been told he's a not a Stark. He would like to be one, but he won't be. You see, this might be part of his bittersweet ending. He won't be part of them as Jon Stark or Snow but a Targaryen and maybe with a different name. I would understand surname but name not so much, but I can see this. Jon has to emrbace both sides of his heritage because otherwise what's the point?

Of course Starks have never married in their family to the extent of Targs; they have never married between siblings during centuries and one can count with the fingers of a hand how many "cousin-type" or marriages alike have been during generations, and as many people have pointed out when talking about this topic, it has not even always been between cousins (more like cousins once removed) and/or with forced situations. Not only that, but these marriages are a minority. So Jon could not apply the traditions of the Stark family to "be a Targ".

Jon and Dany by the law is not considered illegal much like cousins marriage. Starks married in their family, doesn't matter once removed or not. They did it, not to the extent of Targs but they did. Especially if you considered that Jon won't be thinking about her in familial way when they're first meet. These first impressions are key. He doesn't have years of growing up together thinking abot each oíther as siblings to be changed into romantic. Dany is fairly a stranger who happens to have his blood.

Targ family tree

Stark family tree

being the last ones alive from the Targ family is not a reason to arry between eachothe On the contrary, they could continue the Targ lineage separately.

No, easiest is to continue with them.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

12 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

Unless they never find out, Bran dies, or chooses to keep it hidden from them. 

I don't get why Bran would not tell them the truth. Apart from theoretically having his own story and being a key player to the fantasy endgame, he has the responsibility to tell Jon what's happening if he knows.

Telling that would not be bad because he would feel Jon is still his relative and loves him eitherway. If you consider he shouldn't tell him because of Jonerys, I'll tell you it's not even confirmed this would happen and I highly doubt Jonerys falls in love so deeply so that Bran prevents him from telling them about it because of boatlove (it's only boat sex, not love). Anyway, he will tell him. And he doesn't have to know the details of Jonerys, I don't think he will know because if leaks are true and as a consequence, Jonerys is, then Bran doesn't know about their sex boat affair., anyway.

[Meera of Tarth]

8 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Rheagar was Aery's heir and if Jon is legit, we already know he is Rheagar's son, then he has the claim over Dany. This of course is unknown to Jon, Dany, pretty much everyone alive in Westeros with the exception of Bran but if it becomes known, proven in some way, Jon is the Targaryen with the best claim. His would absolutely outweigh Dany's. Dany's only ambition to come to Westeros is that she thinks it is her from her blood birthright. However, he, may, Just may be ahead of her in that regard.

Yes, Jon would have the best claim, although close to Dany's. In "normal" circumstances, there would be issues with this, Dany being proved to be a real Targaryen, and Jon not bein proved to be Aerys' direct heir despite being his grandson and thus, having more claim than Dany, but at the same time Dany having the greatest army to reconquer the throne. Then any legitimate heir of Robert would also have claim to the throne because would be the direct heir of the former King by conquest, but sadly Shireen was murdered and Gendry has not been legitimised.

[Lord Friendzone]

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, Jon would have the best claim, although close to Dany's. In "normal" circumstances, there would be issues with this, Dany being proved to be a real Targaryen, and Jon not bein proved to be Aerys' direct heir despite being his grandson and thus, having more claim than Dany, but at the same time Dany having the greatest army to reconquer the throne. Then any legitimate heir of Robert would also have claim to the throne because would be the direct heir of the former King by conquest, but sadly Shireen was murdered and Gendry has not been legitimised.

Dany's clam is far superior as we told you. Aerys named Viserys, then it passed to Dany. Not Rhaegar's kids and pretty sure they gonna prove somehow Jon is Rhaegar's not Aerys' son as Aerys was nowhere near Lyanna prior events to her kidnapping or even after it. She was away for the whole year with only Rhaegar and his compatriots knowing where she is.

[MoIaF]

41 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Aerys named Viserys his heir, not Aegon or Rhaenys or wouldn't even Jon. It's Aerys -> Viserys and then Dany in this order if we're goijng by their "supposed claim." Besides the fact Jon has absolutely no reason or evidence that he'll be interested in iron throne. Another argument against Jonerys in the trash bag.

They would have to get married in order for their kid to be legitimate for it because otherwise it's only a bastard.

Technically speaking if Daenerys is Queen, she can legitimize her own child. Kings have done it in the past and I don't see why a Queen can't do it. 

[Meera of Tarth]

55 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

 

Quote

 

Jon would never marry Dany as a result of embracing his Targ side, following their traditions. That would be the last thing he would do. First of all, even if he is a targ, he has not been raised as one, so he' will not be like an ordinary Targ. Never. Ever. He is Stark in heart. And if he married Dany it would not be for this reason. Just imagine Jon saying: "Ok, now I'm a Targ, I have to behave the way targs do". Can you? I just can't. And among the Targ traditions, this one is just the worst he would choose. He'd not do that to "be a Targ". And I highly doubt marrying between relatives is something that he has in his blood and now will appear out of a sudden, LOL. Not even all Targs did that...

Jon already in the books is having what you can describe as romantic thoughts about his own sister or close to it. What I said is that he would realize if he's a truly legit Targ, not Stark. Means he has to embrace it riding a dragon, connect to his other side of his heritage and pair that with already established canon of him not be against it during conversation with Ygritte. He's constantly reminded throught the books he's been told he's a not a Stark. He would like to be one, but he won't be. You see, this might be part of his bittersweet ending. He won't be part of them as Jon Stark or Snow but a Targaryen and maybe with a different name. I would understand surname but name not so much, but I can see this. Jon has to emrbace both sides of his heritage because otherwise what's the point?

 

Jon doesn't have romantic thoughts towards Arya or Sansa. See, reading the forum and talking with Jonrya fans, now I can see reminiscent lines of the original outline in the first books that could have been considered kind of a literary building up between him an Arya, to change his relationship to a romantical one in a future. I   doubt it will happen in the next two books, but, personally, I have never considered them romantic thoughts.

What you say about embracing his Targ side is interesting, but I don't see the point of embracing it completely up to losing his Stark identity..... as you point out. I don't know what will happen, maybe you are right, but the point I was discussing was that by embracing his Targ side he would not change into being an incestuous man. Not even all Targs did this. I highly doubt it's in their bloods, but a cultural trait.

Jon is, and always will be, a Stark in his heart, no matter if he embraces his Targ side partially (as I presume it will happen) or completely (as you mention). Maybe the bitterswwet part is that he will be in the middle of them, not being fully any of them, or the contrary, being both a Stark and a Targ, but in his own way. I think the point of his journey is to acknowledging that the names matter, but the most important are is who you are, due to your experiences, and he has had experiences with many people, including the wildings.

Quote

 

Of course Starks have never married in their family to the extent of Targs; they have never married between siblings during centuries and one can count with the fingers of a hand how many "cousin-type" or marriages alike have been during generations, and as many people have pointed out when talking about this topic, it has not even always been between cousins (more like cousins once removed) and/or with forced situations. Not only that, but these marriages are a minority. So Jon could not apply the traditions of the Stark family to "be a Targ".

Jon and Dany by the law is not considered illegal much like cousins marriage. Starks married in their family, doesn't matter once removed or not. They did it, not to the extent of Targs but they did. Especially if you considered that Jon won't be thinking about her in familial way when they're first meet. These first impressions are key. He doesn't have years of growing up together thinking abot each oíther as siblings to be changed into romantic. Dany is fairly a stranger who happens to have his blood.

 

 

These type of marriages are a minority, as I showed up. And people who know more than me about the topic have pointed out that some were kind of contrived by special circumstances. Legal is one thing, but it's not what humans do as a normal thing. We are not prgrammed to be incestuous.

Quote

Targ family tree

Stark family tree

being the last ones alive from the Targ family is not a reason to arry between eachothe On the contrary, they could continue the Targ lineage separately.

No, easiest is to continue with them.

It's "easiest" if they find incest the normal thing and are not bothered about it, but it's not the case. Jon will be bothered about the situation if it happens once he knows the truth,

[Lord Friendzone]

22 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

Technically speaking if Daenerys is Queen, she can legitimize her own child. Kings have done it in the past and I don't see why a Queen can't do it. 

True, forgot about it. If she's a Queen then yes, but who knows at this point where her story is going. She might die before ever reaching iron throne. Apart from Ramsay (even tho by another bastard) was there anybody else legitimized?.

[A Ghost of Someone]

There is a lot of twisted arguments to try and make Dany the sole heir to the Iron Throne.

The Targaryens were overthrown on the basis of injustice, madness and outright cruelty. They were deposed. The Baratheons were installed and accepted by all of the 7 Kingdoms etc. The Baratheons are dead on the show but not in the books. For House Targaryen, Dany is all that is known to be alive on the show as Aegon/Young Griff does not exist. Jon Snow is Rheagar and Lyanna Stark's son. We do not know if he is somehow legitimate or not. If he is, then he is the best, true claimant to House Targaryen if they want to re-establish themselves as rulers from the Iron Throne. Sexist, that is how this society is based, even Dorne it seems on the show has male before female. In the Iron Islands, Theon seems to have been able to claim it but due to being Reeked, he deferred to his sister. They chose the Uncle instead of her despite him admitting he murdered his elder brother.

As far as Aerys, a decree by a madman who is about to be killed and deposed is not worth as much as the blood in his and his offspring and their offspring. Dany was not born until after Aerys died and for all they knew, Queen Rhaella was not even Pregnant at the time (at least I do not thinks so).

I contend that if Jon is discovered to be and there is verifiable/certifiable to the world of the show, that he is  Rheagar's, the deceased former Prince of Dragonstone's eldest surviving and legitimate child, his claim, should he assert it, trumps Dany for the Iron Throne Claim by House Targaryen.

The same applies with Bran when he returns and it is made public in regards to the King in the North and Lord of Winterfell and in this case, even more so as his family already has Winterfell and the North's allegiance.

[Lord Friendzone]

7 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Jon doesn't have romantic thoughts towards Arya or Sansa. See, reading the forum and talking with Jonrya fans, now I can see reminiscent lines of the original outline in the first books that could have been considered kind of a literary building up between him an Arya, to change his relationship to a romantical one in a future. I   doubt it will happen in the next two books, but, personally, I have never considered them romantic thoughts.

The way they think about each other, come on that's far from ordinary brother/sister relationship. It's at least weirdly put together because that's not the wa you think about your own sister. 

What you say about embracing his Targ side is interesting, but I don't see the point of embracing it completely up to losing his Stark identity at all, as you point out. I don't know what will happen, maybe you are right, but the point I was discussing was that by embracing his Targ side he would not change into an incestuous man. Not even all Targs did this. I highly doubt it's in their bloods, but a cultural trait.

There has to be balance but as we know both sides do intermarry in their families to certain extent. Jon enever sshowe any disgust about it.

Jon is, and always will be a Stark in his heart, no matter if he embraces his Targ side partially (as I presume it will happen) or completely (as you mention). Maybe the bitterswwet part is that he will be in the middle of them, not being fully any of them, or the contrary, being both a Stark and a Targ, but in his own way. I think the point of his journey is to acknowledging that the names matter, but the most important are is who you are, due to your experiences, and he has had experiences with many people, including the wildings.

He will always be Stark at heart and carrying Ned's memory, values and principles but that doesn't mean he won't embrace Targ side to certain extent and he has that fiery side. I presume Targ side might be a bit more important whether it is for prophecy and fight against white walkers or iron throne. He's constantly remainded he's not a Stark, to be silent man in the shadows who dares no to speak his true possibly Targ name. If he reaches iron throne, it's because of him and not his name but don't think he'll name himself a Stark or Snow. I would prefer Snow but Iam not writing this series but George. 

These type of marriages are a minority, as I showed up. And people who know more than me about the topic have pointed out that some were kind of contrived by special circumstances. Legal is one thing, but it's not what humans do as a normal thing. We are not prgrammed to be incestuous.

In this world it's not unsual. If you're bitching about incest, you're watching or reading wrong show or books. You see kids even born from incest were shown to be normal and beautiful.

It's "easiest" if they find incest the normal thing and are not bothered about it, but it's not the case. Jon will be bothered about the situation if it happens once he knows the truth,

He won't be as much as some people think. Much bigger deal would Ned not being his father, him not being a Stark but legit Targ. Much more than sleeping with his aunt who he has no familai relations prior.