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Do you think Daenerys and Jon Snow

274 posts in this topic

22 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

 

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  28 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Jon doesn't have romantic thoughts towards Arya or Sansa. See, reading the forum and talking with Jonrya fans, now I can see reminiscent lines of the original outline in the first books that could have been considered kind of a literary building up between him an Arya, to change his relationship to a romantical one in a future. I   doubt it will happen in the next two books, but, personally, I have never considered them romantic thoughts.

The way they think about each other, come on that's far from ordinary brother/sister relationship. It's at least weirdly put together because that's not the wa you think about your own sister. 

 

 

I disagree. As I said, I can see the arguments of Jonrya shippers even if I don't  ship them as a couple, but can you deny me that it can be considered thoughts of a brother-sister being extremely close to eachother in terms of personality? If so, give examples I can't refute.

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What you say about embracing his Targ side is interesting, but I don't see the point of embracing it completely up to losing his Stark identity at all, as you point out. I don't know what will happen, maybe you are right, but the point I was discussing was that by embracing his Targ side he would not change into an incestuous man. Not even all Targs did this. I highly doubt it's in their bloods, but a cultural trait.

There has to be balance but as we know both sides do intermarry in their families to certain extent. Jon enever sshowe any disgust about it.

 

Well, I have not watched any episode in which Jon talks with anyone about if that disgusts him in fact. We have not been told by him if he would like to marry his aunt, either, no?

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Jon is, and always will be a Stark in his heart, no matter if he embraces his Targ side partially (as I presume it will happen) or completely (as you mention). Maybe the bitterswwet part is that he will be in the middle of them, not being fully any of them, or the contrary, being both a Stark and a Targ, but in his own way. I think the point of his journey is to acknowledging that the names matter, but the most important are is who you are, due to your experiences, and he has had experiences with many people, including the wildings.

He will always be Stark at heart and carrying Ned's memory, values and principles but that doesn't mean he won't embrace Targ side to certain extent and he has that fiery side. I presume Targ side might be a bit more important whether it is for prophecy and fight against white walkers or iron throne. He's constantly remainded he's not a Stark, to be silent man in the shadows who dares no to speak his true possibly Targ name. If he reaches iron throne, it's because of him and not his name but don't think he'll name himself a Stark or Snow. I would prefer Snow but Iam not writing this series but George. 

 

I know about those dreams, it's interesting. My take is that he will make himself from his experiences.

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These type of marriages are a minority, as I showed up. And people who know more than me about the topic have pointed out that some were kind of contrived by special circumstances. Legal is one thing, but it's not what humans do as a normal thing. We are not prgrammed to be incestuous.

In this world it's not unsual. If you're bitching about incest, you're watching or reading wrong show or books. You see kids even born from incest were shown to be normal and beautiful.

 

Sorry, nothing personal but I don't think anyone should tell me what to read or watch based on my love/hate for incestuous relationships in fiction, and, as a consequence, I won't tell anyone what to read or watch based on the opposite. Apart from incestuous, it's cliche and I dislike these kind of stories.

 I have never said something wrong about their children, as they have no fault about that, being them healthy or not.

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It's "easiest" if they find incest the normal thing and are not bothered about it, but it's not the case. Jon will be bothered about the situation if it happens once he knows the truth,

He won't be as much as some people think. Much bigger deal would Ned not being his father, him not being a Stark but legit Targ. Much more than sleeping with his aunt who he has no familai relations prior.

 

All these things will be complex and he will have difficulties in assimilating them in my humble opinion.

PS: Could you please quote me in the ordinary way please? In case you have problems (phone or whatever) could you please quote be at the end? I'd be grateful, thanks, since this way I have difficulties quoting you.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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7 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

There is a lot of twisted arguments to try and make Dany the sole heir to the Iron Throne.

Not twisted arguments and nobody is making her sole heir but the one with the strongest claim even tho claims means shit.

The Targaryens were overthrown on the basis of injustice, madness and outright cruelty. They were deposed. The Baratheons were installed and accepted by all of the 7 Kingdoms etc. The Baratheons are dead on the show but not in the books.

Funny that Robert based this on his Targ heritage as he has their blood through his grandmother. View of injustice and all that is very subjective. They took it by the right of conquest.

For House Targaryen, Dany is all that is known to be alive on the show as Aegon/Young Griff does not exist. Jon Snow is Rheagar and Lyanna Stark's son. We do not know if he is somehow legitimate or not. If he is, then he is the best, true claimant to House Targaryen if they want to re-establish themselves as rulers from the Iron Throne. Sexist, that is how this society is based, even Dorne it seems on the show has male before female. In the Iron Islands, Theon seems to have been able to claim it but due to being Reeked, he deferred to his sister. They chose the Uncle instead of her despite him admitting he murdered his elder brother.

As for House Targaryen Aerys passed it onto Viserys not Rhaegar, then it went to Dany who has the strongest claim. Jon has a claim but not stronger than her.

As far as Aerys, a decree by a madman who is about to be killed and deposed is not worth as much as the blood in his and his offspring and their offspring. Dany was not born until after Aerys died and for all they knew, Queen Rhaella was not even Pregnant at the time (at least I do not thinks so).

Aerys was King at that time, doesn't matter mad or not. And now you're twisting arguments by how he's not even worth, he was the King and since he named Viserys, then logical it is it went to his younger sister.

 

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33 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

There is a lot of twisted arguments to try and make Dany the sole heir to the Iron Throne.

The Targaryens were overthrown on the basis of injustice, madness and outright cruelty. They were deposed. The Baratheons were installed and accepted by all of the 7 Kingdoms etc. The Baratheons are dead on the show but not in the books. For House Targaryen, Dany is all that is known to be alive on the show as Aegon/Young Griff does not exist. Jon Snow is Rheagar and Lyanna Stark's son. We do not know if he is somehow legitimate or not. If he is, then he is the best, true claimant to House Targaryen if they want to re-establish themselves as rulers from the Iron Throne. Sexist, that is how this society is based, even Dorne it seems on the show has male before female. In the Iron Islands, Theon seems to have been able to claim it but due to being Reeked, he deferred to his sister. They chose the Uncle instead of her despite him admitting he murdered his elder brother.

As far as Aerys, a decree by a madman who is about to be killed and deposed is not worth as much as the blood in his and his offspring and their offspring. Dany was not born until after Aerys died and for all they knew, Queen Rhaella was not even Pregnant at the time (at least I do not thinks so).

I contend that if Jon is discovered to be and there is verifiable/certifiable to the world of the show, that he is  Rheagar's, the deceased former Prince of Dragonstone's eldest surviving and legitimate child, his claim, should he assert it, trumps Dany for the Iron Throne Claim by House Targaryen.

The same applies with Bran when he returns and it is made public in regards to the King in the North and Lord of Winterfell and in this case, even more so as his family already has Winterfell and the North's allegiance.

- Yes Rhaella was known to be pregnant when she was sent to Drgonstone with the Targaryen heir Viserys

- It doesn't matter if Aerys was mad or not, he was king and his decrees still stand as such. If he skipped over Rhaegar's children and name Viserys his heir that is the law and the line of succession now runs through Viserys. 

- When Aerys died Viserys was crowned King by his mother at Dragonstone, making him the new Targaryen king. As the Targaryen king he chose Dany as his heir. In fact she is first introduced to us as Daenerys Targaryen, Princess of Dragonstone. The Prince of Dragonstone is the title given to the heir to the throne. 

- Because Dany was the heir to the last crowned Targaryen king (whether he rained or not he was still crowned king) she is the last true heir. Whether Jon is legitimate  or not he was never part of the official line of succession and no king named him heir. Therefore his claim is not as strong as Dany. 

- Jon of course has a claim being son of Rhaegar, but he hast to prove it and he would have to push his claim with army and support from other's if he wants to be king. 

Edited by MoIaF

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32 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

There is a lot of twisted arguments to try and make Dany the sole heir to the Iron Throne.

The Targaryens were overthrown on the basis of injustice, madness and outright cruelty. They were deposed. The Baratheons were installed and accepted by all of the 7 Kingdoms etc. The Baratheons are dead on the show but not in the books. For House Targaryen, Dany is all that is known to be alive on the show as Aegon/Young Griff does not exist. Jon Snow is Rheagar and Lyanna Stark's son. We do not know if he is somehow legitimate or not. If he is, then he is the best, true claimant to House Targaryen if they want to re-establish themselves as rulers from the Iron Throne. Sexist, that is how this society is based, even Dorne it seems on the show has male before female. In the Iron Islands, Theon seems to have been able to claim it but due to being Reeked, he deferred to his sister. They chose the Uncle instead of her despite him admitting he murdered his elder brother.

As far as Aerys, a decree by a madman who is about to be killed and deposed is not worth as much as the blood in his and his offspring and their offspring. Dany was not born until after Aerys died and for all they knew, Queen Rhaella was not even Pregnant at the time (at least I do not thinks so).

I contend that if Jon is discovered to be and there is verifiable/certifiable to the world of the show, that he is  Rheagar's, the deceased former Prince of Dragonstone's eldest surviving and legitimate child, his claim, should he assert it, trumps Dany for the Iron Throne Claim by House Targaryen.

The same applies with Bran when he returns and it is made public in regards to the King in the North and Lord of Winterfell and in this case, even more so as his family already has Winterfell and the North's allegiance.

I couldn't agree more with you. Anyway, supports are also an important thing to consider, but Jon's claim is higher, as it is Bran's in the North.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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52 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

True, forgot about it. If she's a Queen then yes, but who knows at this point where her story is going. She might die before ever reaching iron throne. Apart from Ramsay (even tho by another bastard) was there anybody else legitimized?.

Yes, Aegon The Unworthy legitimized all his bastards, that's why the Blackfyre Rebellions happened. The point is that Dany can legitimize her own child and even if she died in childbirth if Jon is still King in the North he can legitimize the child as well. 

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1 hour ago, MoIaF said:

Yes, Aegon The Unworthy legitimized all his bastards, that's why the Blackfyre Rebellions happened. The point is that Dany can legitimize her own child and even if she died in childbirth if Jon is still King in the North he can legitimize the child as well. 

I meant show version.

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1 minute ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I meant show version.

Oh, I see. Well, Ramsay should be example enough. Although, I highly doubt any of this will ever come into play. Their child will be legitimate, I don't think that will be the issue here. 

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On 11. 1. 2017 at 4:42 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

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Jon never showed any disgust about incest or any of that and doubt it will be on his agenda.

He will make himself from this experience, he will be his own man but he won't be a Stark. This too sweet ending for Jon, he'll be Targ maybe Jon Snow wil be known as Aemon Targaryen or Aegon whatever his name is. Birthname has to have some significance because otherwise they wouldn't bother to make it a secret.

You're criticizing incest this or that. Iam just telling you then you're reading wrong books as they're filled with incest which pushes plot, adds into the story. It¨s not shite storytelling. You can dislike incest based on our world but this world it's completely normal. Especially, since Targs and even Stark marry in family.

He'll think about it but eventually accept who he is and if he loves Dany, he'll be with her incest or not. They're fighting white walkers, might die you really think that he would just reject Dany based on this reveal of his parentage.

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On 1/11/2017 at 10:46 AM, MoIaF said:

- Yes Rhaella was known to be pregnant when she was sent to Drgonstone with the Targaryen heir Viserys

- It doesn't matter if Aerys was mad or not, he was king and his decrees still stand as such. If he skipped over Rhaegar's children and name Viserys his heir that is the law and the line of succession now runs through Viserys. 

- When Aerys died Viserys was crowned King by his mother at Dragonstone, making him the new Targaryen king. As the Targaryen king he chose Dany as his heir. In fact she is first introduced to us as Daenerys Targaryen, Princess of Dragonstone. The Prince of Dragonstone is the title given to the heir to the throne. 

- Because Dany was the heir to the last crowned Targaryen king (whether he rained or not he was still crowned king) she is the last true heir. Whether Jon is legitimate  or not he was never part of the official line of succession and no king named him heir. Therefore his claim is not as strong as Dany. 

- Jon of course has a claim being son of Rhaegar, but he hast to prove it and he would have to push his claim with army and support from other's if he wants to be king. 

Did Aerys disinherit ALL Rhaegar's children or just his children by Elia? I remember he excluded his children by Elia only.

Plus, I suspect either Jon or Dany (or both) will not survive the war with the Others.

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1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Jon never showed any disgust about incest or any of that and doubt it will be on his agenda.

He will make himself from this experience, he will be his own man but he won't be a Stark. This too sweet ending for Jon, he'll be Targ maybe Jon Snow wil be known as Aemon Targaryen or Aegon whatever his name is. Birthname has to have some significance because otherwise they wouldn't bother to make it a secret.

You're criticizing incest this or that. Iam just telling you then you're reading wrong books as they're filled with incest which pushes plot, adds into the story. It¨s not shite storytelling. You can dislike incest based on our world but this world it's completely normal. Especially, since Targs and even Stark marry in family.

He'll think about it but eventually accept who he is and if he loves Dany, he'll be with her incest or not. They're fighting white walkers, might die you really think that he would just reject Dany based on this reveal of his parentage.

Incest is not normal in this world. Why would they call Tommen an abomination in KG's streets if it was?

Incest is not the core of THE story, only some plot points. I doubt Jonerys will change the way they fight WWs in the endgame.

And also you are assuming Jon and Dany will fall deeply in love. We only have some leaks and we are not sure even if they are true. So far we only know wight hunt is real, we don't know all the characters listed in that leak will be involved (only confirmation of some of them) and the way he said it will happen is completely unknown since there are no pics, so it could be completely made up. As for Jon and Dany, the leak was about boat sex, we don't even know if that will be true, and less than they will fall in love deeply, just that they were attracted, if anything. 

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Jon never showed any disgust about incest or any of that and doubt it will be on his agenda.

Of course he dislikes it

 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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1 hour ago, Masha said:

Did Aerys disinherit ALL Rhaegar's children or just his children by Elia? I remember he excluded his children by Elia only.

Plus, I suspect either Jon or Dany (or both) will not survive the war with the Others.

The only children Rhaegar had were Elia's (Jon hadn't been born yet). So, they are the only children that could be disinherited. Nonetheless, once the line of succession passed on to Viserys his children or heirs become the official heir. 

Edited by MoIaF

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Well, conveniently, which line of Targs has the "true" inheritance right won't matter one bit in the end, since it looks like Jon and Dany will have offspring together, converging the lines again. I was always pretty sure Dany and Jon would be dead in the end. Still pretty sure about Dany but no longer about Jon so much (especially since GRRM has shifted from his "bittersweet ending" to "happy ending" :( with some bitterness or something in his latest interviews). Could be he will be Lord Regent for his Targ son or daughter after Dany's death.

PS: Just occured to me it would be even more hilarious if Jon pulls an inverse-Ned and raises the kid as for example Sansa's to hide its Targness from the world. :P

 

Edited by ambi76

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On 10/31/2016 at 0:53 AM, Feologild said:

Will find out that they are aunt and nephew ?

 

 

Yes of course.:laugh:

Spoiler

well i for myself believe that those two....you know:love:

 

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On 1/12/2017 at 9:00 PM, ambi76 said:

especially since GRRM has shifted from his "bittersweet ending" to "happy ending"

What do you mean?He said something new??OHHHHHH......:cheers:

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