Do you think Daenerys and Jon Snow

[Evarei]

LOL @ the denial. 

Who cares that much about minor storylines for secondary characters, the fact of the matter is the major characters' arcs have been more or less the same (I don't consider Sansa a major character like the big 5 although she gets to do more in the show than books) with necessary tweaks to accomodate the medium. S6 has spoiled a lot, we got confirmation on quite a few well-built theories FROM the books.

D and D and Martin are on record saying the key plot elements and the ending will be the same. Some of the details may differ but that's expectable. Adaptation can never be 100% true to its source material. It's impossible, they are different mediums that are governed and constrained by different factors.

I find it funny how people who want to deny some of the major plot points, accept R+L=J as fact now because of the show. That's selective. You don't get to choose what you like and disregard everything else. This is not your story.

As for Val. She's just a plot device, not an actual character. She's not going to feature in the endgame.

[Queen of Procrastination]

21 hours ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

I see it as d&d pandering to themselves since they're clearly jon and daenerys fanboys that whitewash and subvert other characters for them. Same seems to happen with Cersei and Tyrion.

I don't think they are Jon fanboys.. Based on their interviews, I came to the conclusion that they don't really understand his book character and they've repeatedly portrayed him as some complete idiot who isn't good at anything except for swordfighting.Instead of letting him rule the North, and being actually good at it, he will probably just sit around at Dragonstone next season, so it looks like they continue that trend.  If they were fans of his character they would have shown him as more competent than he is in the books, like they did with Cersei and Ramsay. They just know that he's popular with the audience and that Kit has quite many fans, so they try to make use of that. On top of that they need their battle and fighting scenes and Kit is apparently the best swordfighter out of the cast, so they just use his talent, knowing the audience will like it. 

21 hours ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

BTW which argument is it?

1) Grrm told them the fate of all characters stories and fates so they're "efficiently" cutting down on filler to meet the "same" ending

Or

2) They only know the broadstroaks and ending but because WoW and ADoS aren't out it's on grrm. So, d&d have to wing it on their own to get that same ending.

Because, in my time lurking here I've seen people flip flop between the two so often its mind boggling.

I've seen both of the arguments as well, but one of the best comments I've seen in that regard comes from one of our Mods: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5a2ukm/spoilers_main_question_about_s6_regarding/d9e0fvc/?context=3

I personally think that your second argument is more accurate. GRRM has told them the ending and some important plot points along the way, but apparently he doesn't always know how we will get there, so D&D try to figure it out themselves. There is also this comment about the plot twist in TWOW which the show can't use, because it includes a character that is dead in the show, but from the way I understood it, he only came up with the plot twist while writing the book. 

[Queen of Procrastination]

8 hours ago, farerb said:

Nobody expected them to wait. People are mostly bothered by D&D about how their characterization is off, how they interchange characters so lightly even though it doesn't make sense, and how they reverse the themes of the book because instead of telling a good story, they prefer to shock the viewers with violence, sex and rape.

This.

And while a book adaptation will barely ever be as good as the books they're based,on they can still be good adaptations of the work they are based on, but GoT stopped being that (I believe it was a very good book adaptation back in Season 1) long before they ran out of book material. I got into the books trough the show, and I don't like the show in itself(when you ignore the books) anymore), because of how  the things that I loved about the show are basically gone now. I got into the show, because it had an interesting and well written story, good developed characters and because it had a fantasy story that wasn't only about big battles. Many other fantasy stories only focus on big battles, badass scenes or the epic stuff, but what hooked me back in Season 1 was the interesting story with good characters and not the epic moments. I loved some of the quiter scenes like the one between Robert and Cersei, because they gave us insight into the characters, but scenes like these don't exist anymore.

 I think what many people who got into the show when Season 1 first aired liked about the show was that it was a fantasy story, but it didn't have all the things that people often criticise in other fantasy stories. It was fantasy but it was realistic. We didn't have to suspend our disbelieve like we need to do it in other fantasy stories. We didn't have things like characters surviving against impossible odds or characters coincedently arriving at the right time to help other characters out of a difficult situation. We didn't have characters who act in a certain way, just so we can get epic moment, they acted realistically. However, now  GoT has exactly become that typical Hollywood fantasy story it didn't want to become and it uses some of the things that we have criticised about other fantasy stories in the past. Arya healing so fast is something I expect to see in shows like Arrow and IRRC even there it took a bit longer for Oliver Queen to get better after he had been stabbed in Season 3. If I want to see the Riders of Rohan arriving,I watch LotR 2. When I watch GoT I don't expect to see these things, because GoT promised to be different in that regard. 

As others have said a story is more than just plot points and epic moments.I want to see the quiter moments,I want to see more of what characters are feeling and I want a story that doesn't feel rushed.  I prefer havig to wait 6 years for GRRM to finish and give me a good written story which does more than checking off a few plot points, over waiting one year and getting the writing season 6 had.

 

[Queen of Procrastination]

Regarding the original topic: I'm a fan of both Jon and Dany in the books (don't like their show versions that much though) and together with Arya they are my favourite characters.  Contrary to some other Jon fans, I have to say  that I'm not against Jon and Dany getting together per se. If I look at the different possibilities for Jon, I must say that I definetely prefer this over Jon and Arya or Jon and Sansa, though I still like Jon and Val getting together more than Jon/ Daenerys.

 I could see Jon and Dany happening in the books, but I won't be disappointed if it doesn't happen. I would be okay with this relationship, as long as it is well done (no instant love, not cheesy, etc). I think there can be some interesting aspects to this relationship and I also believe that GRRM could write it in a way that subverts the traditional "hero and heroine get together, save the world and live happily ever after" clichee a bit. Them getting together for politics and not for love, or one of them dying are only two of the many potential ways to do it. I think he would develop a relationship slowly and also spend enough time on the potential conflicts like Jon finding out about Rhaegar. 

However, my fear is that the show will do it in a very cheesy and typical Hollywood style way and that potential conflicts might get swepped under the rug. After seeing how they dealt with Jon's ressurection, I fear that they might deal with him learning that Rhaegar is his biological father and that Dany is his aunt in a similar way. 

Despite this I'm stil willing to wait and see. Maybe my fears wont get confirmed. Maybe they will spend enough time on those things. Kit and Emilia seem to have a good chemistry, if the director does some good work, the writing is ok and we don't get some cheesy lines, it might be good. 

 

[Dragon in the North]

23 hours ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

BTW which argument is it?

1) Grrm told them the fate of all characters stories and fates so they're "efficiently" cutting down on filler to meet the "same" ending

Or

2) They only know the broadstroaks and ending but because WoW and ADoS aren't out it's on grrm. So, d&d have to wing it on their own to get that same ending.

Because, in my time lurking here I've seen people flip flop between the two so often its mind boggling.

Well, naturally not everyone is in agreement on this, but I personally believe that major plot points will be the same, but the details getting their will be different. We can already see it happening in seasons 5 an 6, with major events being spoiled.

[Le Cygne]

They've actually made several statements suggesting there will be differences to the ending. Here's Benioff:

Quote

"Luckily we've had a lot of talks with George, we know where he's going. We know the end point, and we're hoping that, you know, that end point will be very much in keeping with the spirit of the books."

 

 

[Lord Friendzone]

21 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

From of all your quotes I could only accept as foreshadowing the one in the House of the Undying, if anything. The rest is just extremely out of nowhere.

How could the description of Val be foreshadowing of Daenerys? I mean, he is clearly being happy at Val's description.

And the wolf?This word appears more than 500 imes in the books.

 

Val's description fits Dany too much for it to be coincidence. 

"A wolf howled off in the distance..." is just a supporting thing to show there is connection between them could be romantical, familial. Dany's visions included Robb, Red Wedding and in fact wolf appears to be linked a lot to her. Further leading people to believe she is Lyanna's daughter.

I just wanted to showcase there is foreshadowing for them, in the show we have some of it

20 hours ago, Ser Wun Wun said:

I did a reread a few months ago (when I naively thought Winds might be out before the end of the year)  and this line caught my eye:

Dany is basically expressing a desire to be stolen here.  

It put the crackpot idea in my head that Jon Snow will "steal" Dany in the books.  Not to make her his woman or anything, but to drag her ass North of the Wall so she can see the true threat with her own eyes.  Something to that effect.

Of all the ways George could initiate a romance between them, I think that would be the best.  The show version where they simply meet and flirt seems a bit...conventional.  I've expected Jon/Dany for years, but I was disappointed with how the leaker described it.  Sounds pretty tame and boring.  

  

I could see Jon stealing Dany. Certainly thig that would impress her and basicaly jhave similair efect to what is show presenting to us. To see true threat.

I would be careful with judging shows version because leaker is not exactly best in ways of explaining it, We haven't see it on the screen and chemistry, dialog if good can make it very good relationship. It may sound boring and lame...but I would reserve my judgment for it after seeing it. Chemistry can make up for a lot of things. If pair do have a chemistry, it's easy to view it as a good pairing. IT can make up for subpar writing.

[Le Cygne]

Actually Val's description sounds like a hint that Jon is a Targ... He's attracted to Val, there's something innately familiar about her.

He uses the same technique with Ygritte, Jon remembering Arya. He said so, there's something he admires about her, something familiar.

Dany also pictures Daario with purple eyes (repeatedly). And that was Daario she was hoping would steal her, not Jon.

He would not write a romance based on special moments with another woman or man. He'd give them their own story.

[Meera of Tarth]

18 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

They've actually made several statements suggesting there will be differences to the ending. Here's Benioff:

 

 

No! For a moment,  my hope for the real romances has vanished...

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Evarei said:

LOL @ the denial. 

Who cares that much about minor storylines for secondary characters, the fact of the matter is the major characters' arcs have been more or less the same (I don't consider Sansa a major character like the big 5 although she gets to do more in the show than books) with necessary tweaks to accomodate the medium. S6 has spoiled a lot, we got confirmation on quite a few well-built theories FROM the books.

D and D and Martin are on record saying the key plot elements and the ending will be the same. Some of the details may differ but that's expectable. Adaptation can never be 100% true to its source material. It's impossible, they are different mediums that are governed and constrained by different factors.

I find it funny how people who want to deny some of the major plot points, accept R+L=J as fact now because of the show. That's selective. You don't get to choose what you like and disregard everything else. This is not your story.

As for Val. She's just a plot device, not an actual character. She's not going to feature in the endgame.

Many people care about minor characters, especially when those characters are main or more important in the books like other ones like, let's say, Cersei.

[Meera of Tarth]

9 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Val's description fits Dany too much for it to be coincidence. 

 

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Actually Val's description sounds like a hint that Jon is a Targ...

Dany also pictures Daario with purple eyes (repeatedly).

That was what I was going to say!

9 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

 

Quote

"A wolf howled off in the distance..." is just a supporting thing to show there is connection between them could be romantical, familial. Dany's visions included Robb, Red Wedding and in fact wolf appears to be linked a lot to her. Further leading people to believe she is Lyanna's daughter.

I just wanted to showcase there is foreshadowing for them, in the show we have some of it

I could see Jon stealing Dany. Certainly thig that would impress her and basicaly jhave similair efect to what is show presenting to us. To see true threat.

I would be careful with judging shows version because leaker is not exactly best in ways of explaining it, We haven't see it on the screen and chemistry, dialog if good can make it very good relationship. It may sound boring and lame...but I would reserve my judgment for it after seeing it. Chemistry can make up for a lot of things. If pair do have a chemistry, it's easy to view it as a good pairing. IT can make up for subpar writing.

Could be, like there is a connection between Tyrion or Jaime when they hear about wolves in their chapters.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 10. 11. 2016 at 2:56 PM, Ser Wun Wun said:

He'll find out in S8.  At this point, I imagine their S8 romance will play out like this:

Jon/Dany can't get married immediately because the North is under attack when they get there.  Jon finds out about his parentage before any marriage takes place.  He's horrified and pulls away from Dany (without telling her why, I'd imagine).....then he finds out Dany is pregnant.  The show has kept her 'I will bear no living child until...' prophecy for a reason imo.

At that point, Jon's dilemma is:  Do I knowingly commit incest and marry my Aunt, or do I become the father of a bastard child?  Human heart in conflict with itself and all that jazz.  

Pretty sure he'll marry her in that scenario.  Then one of them dies, Dany in childbirth or Jon in battle.  I'd like it if they both lived, but it's hard to be that optimistic with this series.    

Human heart conflict and this is why besides dragonriding will be main thing RLJ will serve for at least for the show.

I could see Jon being reserved about Dany at first, then her being pregnant or simply him following his heart will marry her. Her third marriage is still to come on the show.

Dany dying in the childbirth would be sort of mirroring Lyanna or Rhaella but she survived at much younger age preganancy and lived. Of course who's to say she can't die from childbirth, as this was a common thing in Medieval times or Westeros. But wouldn't be surprised if she lives and have a son. That HOTU shows' version can be interpretated as that she'll die and join Drogo and Rhaego but also as finding her new family, what she lost before there Beyond the Wall, where Jon was at that time. Drogo will always be very important but don't think he will be her greatest love, that is to come. Right now, Drogo with Dany or Ygritte with Jon wouldn't work as well like it did before.

[Le Cygne]

23 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Many people care about minor characters, especially when those characters are main or more important in the books like other ones like, let's say, Cersei.

Yeah, this. And I didn't need the show to tell me R + L = J...

[Le Cygne]

15 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No! For a moment,  my hope for the real romances has vanished...

I don't think they have the slightest idea how to tell a romance, but they could still check off the boxes. I think we like the same "real" romances, and they seem to have set things up.

I think they also like to shock, so I could see something like Jon and Dany pulling together in that way, then apart, when this doesn't happen in the books. I'd prefer they have a family connection.

[Meera of Tarth]

7 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I don't think they have the slightest idea how to tell a romance, but they could still check off the boxes. I think we like the same "real" romances, and they seem to have set things up.

I think they also like to shock, so I could see something like Jon and Dany pulling together in that way, then apart, when this doesn't happen in the books. I'd prefer they have a family connection.

I have my hopes  in that the real romances could still happen bc they might be saving them for the ending (shocking). nd yes, as you say, some things have already been set up.

[Le Cygne]

Just now, Meera of Tarth said:

I have my hopes  in that the real romances could still happen bc they might be saving them for the ending (shocking). nd yes, as you say, some things have already been set up.

Yeah, the whole shocking "endgame" thing. But the best stories take the audience/readers along for the ride. That's not only more fun to watch/read, those are the stories you remember.

[Queen of Procrastination]

On 11.11.2016 at 8:32 AM, Evarei said:

LOL @ the denial. 

Who cares that much about minor storylines for secondary characters, the fact of the matter is the major characters' arcs have been more or less the same (I don't consider Sansa a major character like the big 5 although she gets to do more in the show than books) with necessary tweaks to accomodate the medium. S6 has spoiled a lot, we got confirmation on quite a few well-built theories FROM the books.

D and D and Martin are on record saying the key plot elements and the ending will be the same. Some of the details may differ but that's expectable. Adaptation can never be 100% true to its source material. It's impossible, they are different mediums that are governed and constrained by different factors.

 

On 11.11.2016 at 10:49 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

Many people care about minor characters, especially when those characters are main or more important in the books like other ones like, let's say, Cersei.

Exactly.

As a fan of Arianne I have to support this statement and on top of that I care about many minor characters as well. On top of that Bran is not really an important character in the show while Cersei and Jaime have gotten fare bigger roles than they have in the books. 

I supect that a few plot points that happened in the show will also happen in TWOW (Dany gaining the Dothraki and sailing for Westeros, Jon returning and Arya leaving the FM for example), but I believed that this stuff would happen long before Season 6 aired. I believe that this stuff will be massively different in the books.  I agree that plot points are not what makes up a good story. I care about how things happen and how characters feel and develop. I want to see more of the Dothraki and I don't believe Dany meeting them again will be something that just happens for her gaining a bigger army. It will also be important for her personal journey and I want to see that more than the "epic moment" of her burning the khals. Seeing how much Jon has changed is nearly more important for me than the actual ressurection and I also want to see how other people will react to that. I care about Bran and I don't just want to see him as an exposition machine, I want to see how his personality develops. I want to see how the meeting between Brienne, Jaime and LS goes down and I want to see what happens to minor characters. I want to learn who the Hooded Man at Winterfell was, I want to learn who Septa Leymore is and I'm curious to see what Sarella/ Alleras is up to. Will the show give me the answer to these things? No. 

A good story should consist of more than just a few plot points. It needs to connect these plot points logically. It needs to show how characters develop, how they react to the things that happen to them and what meaning some plot poins had in their lives.

A good book adaptation should not just hit a few plot points that exist in the books, it should also follow the books as closely as possible when it comes to how the main plot points come to pass. I can understand some small changes and appreciate some of them, but I still think that the adaptation should adapt important plot points as close as possible to the books. Characters should be motivated by the same reasons. The plot points in a adaptation should have the same narrative meaning as they have in the books they are based on. The message of the adapted version should not deviate to fare from the message of the original version. 

Jon's assassination is an important plot point in both the books and the show. As far as I know both book readers and show watchers would list it as one of the major shocking moments, so it should be adapted properly.

Here are some aspects about that storyline happened both in the show and in the books: Jon gets stabbed by his own men, Ramsay writes Jon a letter stating that he wants his wife back and that he will attack him,Jon decides that he wants to fight against Ramsay, Jon asks the wildlings to fight for him and the wildlings agree.

Was it the same story with the same characters (not just referring to the people who appeared, but also to their personalities)? Did these things come to pass in the same manner? I think everone who has read Jon's last chapter in ADWD knows the answer to these questions. 

 

[Le Cygne]

Yeah, that Jon came back to life is not the draw. It's how this changed him, that's what I wanted to see. Meaning.

[A Ghost of Someone]

On 10/30/2016 at 5:53 PM, Feologild said:

Will find out that they are aunt and nephew ?

 

On this show, anything can happen. Anything.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, the whole shocking "endgame" thing. But the best stories take the audience/readers along for the ride. That's not only more fun to watch/read, those are the stories you remember.

Exactly. In fact these are the ones which are more beautiful and realistic, bc they are based on friendship or encounters that make the relationship develop gradually. The process of separation is very important too in some of them, and I think that is what the majority of people like. Not just a quick romance that comes out of nowhere.

I respect people who ship Jonerys bc they have read things than might let them think that is foreshadowed (although I disagree on this) but it's just impossible that they could make Jonerys realistic in te show with such a few time considering the personality of the the characters involved, the few time they have, and the relationships and past Jon and Dany have with other characters.