Do you think Daenerys and Jon Snow

[A Ghost of Someone]

Just now, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, that Jon came back to life is not the draw. It's how this changed him, that's what I wanted to see. Meaning.

You have a point, GRRM says that when the dead come back, they are not the same. Maybe Jon mellowed out, however the execution of his "assasins" would suggest not.

[Meera of Tarth]

7 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

 

Exactly.

As a fan of Arianne I have to support this statement and on top of that I care about many minor characters as well. On top of that Bran is not really an important character in the show while Cersei and Jaime have gotten fare bigger roles than they have in the books. 

I supect that a few plot points that happened in the show will also happen in TWOW (Dany gaining the Dothraki and sailing for Westeros, Jon returning and Arya leaving the FM for example), but I believed that this stuff would happen long before Season 6 aired. I believe that this stuff will be massively different in the books.  I agree that plot points are not what makes up a good story. I care about how things happen and how characters feel and develop. I want to see more of the Dothraki and I don't believe Dany meeting them again will be something that just happens for her gaining a bigger army. It will also be important for her personal journey and I want to see that more than the "epic moment" of her burning the khals. Seeing how much Jon has changed is nearly more important for me than the actual ressurection and I also want to see how other people will react to that. I care about Bran and I don't just want to see him as an exposition machine, I want to see how his personality develops. I want to see how the meeting between Brienne, Jaime and LS goes down and I want to see what happens to minor characters. I want to learn who the Hooded Man at Winterfell was, I want to learn who Septa Leymore is and I'm curious to see what Sarella/ Alleras is up to. Will the show give me the answer to these things? No. 

Here are some plot points that happened both in the show and in the books: Jon gets stabbed by his own men, Ramsay writes Jon a letter stating that he wants his wife back and that he will attack him,Jon decides that he wants to fight against Ramsay, Jon asks the wildlings to fight for him and the wildlings agree.

Was it the same story with the same characters (not just referring to the people who appeared, but also to their personalities)? I think everone who's read Jon's last chapter in ADWD knows the answer to that. 

 

I couldn't agree with this more. It's the story and how this affects the characters (and how their personality may change because of what happens to them!) what is really important.

Personally, I got into the first seasons of GOT bc it wasn't about 4 main characters and their "supporting" ones. It was rich and all the characters had their story. While I agree that there has to be main characters, I just don't understand why now the story is only about 4 of them up to the point the others' motivations and characterisation has been vanished or it's just for "exposition" purposes. it could be a matter of taste too. I've always preferred the secondary ones, but I have never disliked Dany or Jon. And I did like Tyrion (well, to some extent). But now this is totally different.

I want to see the stories of the "minor" characters, and I can't believe they are all going to be ONLY about "supporting" Jon and Dany in the books. Jon doesn't believe he is more important than his brothers or sisters, for instance. And Tyrion is not as much egocentric in the books. I'd like to tell them: Don't make us believe the story is about Jonerys and the WWs. The others are important too. And their romances, and familiar bonds as well.

[Queen of Procrastination]

19 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I couldn't agree with this more. It's the story and how this affects the characters (and how their personality may change because of what happens to them!) what is really important.

Personally, I got into the first seasons of GOT bc it wasn't about 4 main characters and their "supporting" ones. It was rich and all the characters had their story. While I agree that there has to be main characters, I just don't understand why now the story is only about 4 of them up to the point the others' motivations and characterisation has been vanished or it's just for "exposition" purposes. it could be a matter of taste too. I've always preferred the secondary ones, but I have never disliked Dany or Jon. And I did like Tyrion (well, to some extent). But now this is totally different.

I want to see the stories of the "minor" characters, and I can't believe they are all going to be ONLY about "supporting" Jon and Dany in the books. Jon doesn't believe he is more important than his brothers or sisters, for instance. And Tyrion is not as much egocentric in the books. I'd like to tell them: Don't make us believe the story is about Jonerys and the WWs. The others are important too. And their romances, and familiar bonds as well.

Agree though I think it won't just be Jon, Dany and Tyrion, because Cersei's still alive and she showrunners love her  

I actually think that we might not even get a good characterisation  and personality development of Jon, Dany and Tyrion, despite them being so important. Sure they might get many scenes, but the showrunners value "epic" and "shocking" moments more than good character development and storytelling. Jon, Dany and/ or Tyrion might act increadibly stupid and completely OOC (even for their show personalities) at some point just so we get an epic moment or a cool looking battle sequence. IMO we saw that in Season 6 already. 

[Queen of Procrastination]

15 minutes ago, Mario Daniel said:

No, I think jonerys is crap no matter how they do it.

Fine that's your opinion. I've mine. Doesn't mean your more right than I am or that I'm more right than you are. 

Not providing reasons or justifications will not make it more likely that people will believe you though. 

It has been some time, since I read the forum policy, but IIRC one person should not have multiple accounts @principenoprometido or should I call you @señor de nada ? 

Trying to make the same Dany or Jonaerys hate posts under the disguise of multiple accounts won't give you more credibility. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Jon has risen from the dead. Could he still sire children?

[Queen of Procrastination]

12 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Jon has risen from the dead. Could he still sire children?

To quote yourself

3 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

On this show, anything can happen. Anything.

When I apply book knowledge, though: I don't know. We only have Cat and Berric as ressurected characters and not so much detail into the whole ressurection thing. From what I've gotten from the books the ressurection mainly affects a person psychologically and not that much physically. However, the wounds don't seem to heal e.g. Cat's throat or Beric's wounds.  Jon was not stabbed into the parts that ehh... affect his ability to sire children (not sure how to formulate that without it sounding akward). 

So he should still be able to do so, but that's only speculation. We have to wait and see. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

What I mean is Jon capable of well, fertilizing eggs? Then again that may be too technical, especially for the show.

[Queen of Procrastination]

9 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

What I mean is Jon capable of well, fertilizing eggs? Then again that may be too technical, especially for the show.

This conversation... You know you're an ASOIAF fan, when you think there is nothing strange about having a conversation about a fictional character's ability to father children after having been ressurected.  

I think he will be capable if D&D wan't him to be capable. Whether or not that actually makes sense might be less important for them. 

Seeing how they've treated the ressurection so far, I believe that we can count ourselves lucky if the ressurection will ever be brought up again. It's not like that's a particulary important thing that should play a big role in the story and for which we need to see the reactions of other characters. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

2 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

This conversation... You know you're an ASOIAF fan, when you think there is nothing strange about having a conversation about a fictional character's ability to father children after having been ressurected.  

I think he will be capable if D&D wan't him to be capable. Whether or not that actually makes sense might be less important for them. 

Seeing how they've treated the ressurection so far, I believe that we can count ourselves lucky if the ressurection will ever be brought up again. It's not like that's a particulary important thing that should play a big role in the story and for which we need to see the reactions of other characters. 

I know, the resurrection erection etc. I would think that any woman or really any person that sees Jon without his shirt is going to look at those scars as they are stabb wounds, not slashes and no stitches and questions should ARISE. Then again, he eats and drinks so the internal mechanisms may work as well. As for the story, this show, well......

[Drago]

19 hours ago, farerb said:

So the show ruining it for the books, which made the show exist in the first place, is OK?! Do people not realize what an adaptation even means anymore? How did the show was successful when it was actually based on books? How did the books not ruin the show then?!

I know what an adaptation is. The show has not ruined it for the book readers yet, stop twisting words. The book plots from what I understand are far more complex. All I am saying is that releasing a book now would ruin it for the TV show especially if someone is sitting on the throne by the end of it taking into account how the internet works every Tom, Dick & Harry will be plastering his opinion all over it. The internet is almost impossible to escape theses days.

19 hours ago, farerb said:

Actually he hasn't been involved in the series since season 5 and he said that D&D can do whatever they want and he can't do anything about it. If he had had any control, Dorne would have been different and Sansa wouldn't have been raped.

How do you know he has not been involved? Are you best mates with him? I'm saying don't believe everything you are told. GRRM & HBO can make a whole lot more money if they let the TV adaptation finish. You know what merchandise is? Obviously not. Forget about the Books the readers will still buy them. Look at all the leaks that are coming through for season 7 filming. Can you really tell me that once the book readers get that book in their hands that one of them wont start spoiling it for the TV Show even if it isn't the same the core story is?

People got angry over the Rape of Sansa as they should but nothing is said of all the killing, gay themes, nudity, prostitution, torture, etc. What a joke.

This show is set back from our point of view many hundreds of years if not thousands. Regardless of whether the story is fiction society was not a fairy tale back then.

19 hours ago, farerb said:

You pretty much contradicted yourself with this sentence. A story is not just a checklist of plot points and the endgame. If that was the case then why don't they just reveal those and be done with that? A story is characterization, context and themes. The journey is as important as the endgame, even more.

I didn't contradict myself at all. you have jumped to a false conclusion looking for something that's not there.

 

19 hours ago, farerb said:

He doesn't have his story changed. D&D hack his story until it is not his anymore, because they rather have their preferred characters have the plots of other characters (Jon instead of Stannis, Tyrion instead of Dany\Barristan\Quentyn) or change the plot of main characters to serve secondary characters (Sansa is not worthy of her own plot from the books because "there's this story line with Ramsay" and he's so obviously more important than her so she is put in there instead of Jeyne).

You're mincing my words once again.  D&D have stated they already know how the story ends which means they have been told right from the start. Yes they are doing things differently but once again they will end up with the same ending even if the journey differs.

I think they are doing this on purpose after season 5 so it does not spoil it for the book readers too much.

Obviously they had to condense the story otherwise the series would go on for 20 years or more. People generally lose interest after 7 or 8. This is where combining characters stories comes in.

 

19 hours ago, farerb said:

I'm sorry but you don't get GRRM's story, you get D&D's fanfiction. If you want GRRM's story, read the books.

No, I Understand his story enough just from reading these forums. I myself don' care if the books come out and I don't care about spoilers I will watch the show just the same because I like a visual story over a book any day of the week.

At some point HBO would have figured out that by GRRM releasing the next book may hurt the show considering how popular it is and that is why I believe the release date continues to be delayed all the time. This is just my opinion and I guess we will never know.

[Meera of Tarth]

5 hours ago, Drago said:

I know what an adaptation is. The show has not ruined it for the book readers yet, stop twisting words. The book plots from what I understand are far more complex. All I am saying is that releasing a book now would ruin it for the TV show especially if someone is sitting on the throne by the end of it taking into account how the internet works every Tom, Dick & Harry will be plastering his opinion all over it. The internet is almost impossible to escape theses days.

How do you know he has not been involved? Are you best mates with him? I'm saying don't believe everything you are told. GRRM & HBO can make a whole lot more money if they let the TV adaptation finish. You know what merchandise is? Obviously not. Forget about the Books the readers will still buy them. Look at all the leaks that are coming through for season 7 filming. Can you really tell me that once the book readers get that book in their hands that one of them wont start spoiling it for the TV Show even if it isn't the same the core story is?

People got angry over the Rape of Sansa as they should but nothing is said of all the killing, gay themes, nudity, prostitution, torture, etc. What a joke.

This show is set back from our point of view many hundreds of years if not thousands. Regardless of whether the story is fiction society was not a fairy tale back then.

I didn't contradict myself at all. you have jumped to a false conclusion looking for something that's not there.

 

You're mincing my words once again.  D&D have stated they already know how the story ends which means they have been told right from the start. Yes they are doing things differently but once again they will end up with the same ending even if the journey differs.

I think they are doing this on purpose after season 5 so it does not spoil it for the book readers too much.

Obviously they had to condense the story otherwise the series would go on for 20 years or more. People generally lose interest after 7 or 8. This is where combining characters stories comes in.

 

No, I Understand his story enough just from reading these forums. I myself don' care if the books come out and I don't care about spoilers I will watch the show just the same because I like a visual story over a book any day of the week.

At some point HBO would have figured out that by GRRM releasing the next book may hurt the show considering how popular it is and that is why I believe the release date continues to be delayed all the time. This is just my opinion and I guess we will never know.

if Martin has not released the book it's not because of tv show conspiracies.

the books would ryin the show?

5 books released before the tv show

[Evarei]

17 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

This conversation... You know you're an ASOIAF fan, when you think there is nothing strange about having a conversation about a fictional character's ability to father children after having been ressurected.  

I think he will be capable if D&D wan't him to be capable. Whether or not that actually makes sense might be less important for them. 

We're talking about magic which doesn't have strict rules in this story.  Martin has never come up with them. So you can't just judge magical plot developments on whether or not they make sense.

[Queen of Procrastination]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

if Martin has not released the book it's not because of tv show conspiracies.

the books would ryin the show?

5 books released before the tv show

 

 

@Drago. : I agree with Meera of Tarth's assesment. Things like the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding and Jon's assassinatiom were not ruined for many viewers. It took them by surprise despite the fact that the books were already out. ADWD was actually released after season 2 of the show had aired. Book readers were going crazy about stuff like Jon'assassination, Aegon and the Epiloge. Still a lot of show watchers didn't learn about these things in 2011. D&D make their show for casual watchers and not for the fandom. Most viewers don't spend hours debating about the show on the internet. We are a minority. If TWOW would be released tommorow (not gonna happen I know) some viewers would be spoiled, because they read some stuff online, but many of them wouldn't know about that stuff. The majority of viewers are casual viewers and some of them might not even be able to name 10 characters. I've watched past seasons with two if them and when I had to explain some stuff to them I did it in this way:

I: "Daenerys she is gonna.."

They: "Who?"

I: "The blonde Queen". 

They: "The evil one?"

I: "No, the one with dragons...

I have no clue how I'm gonna explain R+L=J to them once Season 6 has aired in my country, because they don't know who the hell Rhaegar was. Not all casual viewers are lile this, but many of them are and they will not learn anything about TWOW's content. 

On top of that TWOW is not gonna spoil the end and stuff lile who's gonna sit on the IT, because it's not supposed to be the last book of the series. GRRM still wants to write ADOS. 

Furthermore, it's wromg to say that people don't complain about stuff like the violence and prostitution, etcs. The show has always received some heavy criticism for this stuff, even before we got the sept scene in season 4 and the entire rape debate that followed. 

[Evarei]

Jon has the perfect blend of magical blood. Stark and Targaryen (Valyrian and First Men). Beric and Catelyn don't. That magic in him would help with restoring him back to life in ways those two weren't.

[Meera of Tarth]

7 minutes ago, Evarei said:

Jon has the perfect blend of magical blood. Stark and Targaryen (Valyrian and First Men). Beric and Catelyn don't. That magic in him would help with restoring him back to life in ways those two weren't.

Yeah, as I said in another thread, Heroes have privileges.

[Queen of Procrastination]

9 minutes ago, Evarei said:

We're talking about magic which doesn't have strict rules in this story.  Martin has never come up with them. So you can't just judge magical plot developments on whether or not they make sense.

I agree that GRRM hasn't explained his magical rules in that much detail, but he has given us two precedents for ressurections and he has made some comments about ressurection. Based on these things many of us came to the conclusion that his ressurection will be different in the books and that his ressurection was done in a way that went against the things that were established about ressurections. 

Martin also said explicitly that Dany is not fireproof and that her surviving Drogo's pyre was a one time event created by special factors and the showrunners still made her fireproof. 

On top of that the show hasn't bothered with giving us explanation of some other stuff and has sometimes broken it's own rules, so I just don't think they would care explaining it. I doubt the majority of viewers would care about this. 

[Queen of Procrastination]

25 minutes ago, Evarei said:

Jon has the perfect blend of magical blood. Stark and Targaryen (Valyrian and First Men). Beric and Catelyn don't. That magic in him would help with restoring him back to life in ways those two weren't.

When did the show ever explain the magic factors of Stark blood? The only Stark who has magical abilities in the show is Bran. Unless you want to count Arya's ability to change faces. The mechanics of which haven't really been explained either (not in the books yet, but maybe we still get it). The ability to change faces is apparently not related to her Stark blood.  I doubt GRRM will let Jon get away with the ressurection easily just because he's the hero. That's not his style. Not saying that the show did this just that Jon's special magic blood might not help him to get over a ressurection just, because he's the hero. 

[Le Cygne]

5 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yeah, as I said in another thread, Heroes have privileges.

Try to understand, try to understand, try try try to understand, he's a magic man. (Just kidding, that's a song...)

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

 

 

@Drago  ADWD was actually released after season 2 of the show had aired. Book readers were going crazy about stuff like Jon'assassination, Aegon and the Epiloge.

ADWD was released after Season 1 aired, right when filming for Season 2 aired.

[A Ghost of Someone]

58 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Try to understand, try to understand, try try try to understand, he's a magic man. (Just kidding, that's a song...)

Great Song.