Do you think Daenerys and Jon Snow

[Queen of Procrastination]

52 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

ADWD was released after Season 1 aired, right when filming for Season 2 aired.

Yeah... I made a mistake there, hit the wrong button on my keyboard. Thank you for the correction. Doesn't change the fact that show watchers had years to find out about it, though. 

[Queen of Procrastination]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Try to understand, try to understand, try try try to understand, he's a magic man. (Just kidding, that's a song...)

. 

Great song.

What are his magical abilities though? It's not like he's a warg or something.Getting over a ressurection rather quickly and convincing arrows not to hit you is certainly useful, but it's kinda lame compared to teleportation or the ability to hide armies from everyone when they are crossing long distances

[Le Cygne]

28 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

. 

Great song.

What are his magical abilities though? It's not like he's a warg or something.Getting over a ressurection rather quickly and convincing arrows not to hit you is certainly useful, but it's kinda lame compared to teleportation or the ability to hide armies from everyone when they are crossing long distances

He has a magic manbun!

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

He has a magic manbun!

And what exactly can he or anyone do with a man bun unless she grabs it and goes.... well.

[The Bear Who Knocks]

Manbun Ahai

[Le Cygne]

23 minutes ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

Manbun Ahai

The manbun that was promised.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I see guys with these things all over the place. Was Kit the one to make it in style or something, the Manbun?

[Queen of Procrastination]

4 hours ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

Manbun Ahai

4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

The manbun that was promised.

Brilliant. 

3 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I see guys with these things all over the place. Was Kit the one to make it in style or something, the Manbun?

It was a trend before, but Jon Snow having it probably made it even more popular due to the popularity of GoT. Chris Hemthworth, Leonardo DiCaprio and Jared Leto had it before him and made it a trend. 

However, my wonderful gossip magasine is also tellying me that another trend will soon take over and that the manbun will be out soon  

[A Ghost of Someone]

43 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Brilliant. 

It was a trend before, but Jon Snow having it probably made it even more popular due to the popularity of GoT. Chris Hemthworth, Leonardo DiCaprio and Jared Leto had it before him and made it a trend. 

However, my wonderful gossip magasine is also tellying me that another trend will soon take over and that the manbun will be out soon  

That is good.

[Drago]

On ‎13‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:10 AM, Lady of Whisperers said:

 

 

@Drago. : I agree with Meera of Tarth's assesment. Things like the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding and Jon's assassinatiom were not ruined for many viewers. It took them by surprise despite the fact that the books were already out. ADWD was actually released after season 2 of the show had aired. Book readers were going crazy about stuff like Jon'assassination, Aegon and the Epiloge. Still a lot of show watchers didn't learn about these things in 2011. D&D make their show for casual watchers and not for the fandom. Most viewers don't spend hours debating about the show on the internet. We are a minority. If TWOW would be released tommorow (not gonna happen I know) some viewers would be spoiled, because they read some stuff online, but many of them wouldn't know about that stuff. The majority of viewers are casual viewers and some of them might not even be able to name 10 characters. I've watched past seasons with two if them and when I had to explain some stuff to them I did it in this way:

I: "Daenerys she is gonna.."

They: "Who?"

I: "The blonde Queen". 

They: "The evil one?"

I: "No, the one with dragons...

I have no clue how I'm gonna explain R+L=J to them once Season 6 has aired in my country, because they don't know who the hell Rhaegar was. Not all casual viewers are lile this, but many of them are and they will not learn anything about TWOW's content. 

On top of that TWOW is not gonna spoil the end and stuff lile who's gonna sit on the IT, because it's not supposed to be the last book of the series. GRRM still wants to write ADOS. 

Furthermore, it's wromg to say that people don't complain about stuff like the violence and prostitution, etcs. The show has always received some heavy criticism for this stuff, even before we got the sept scene in season 4 and the entire rape debate that followed. 

I don't think people are understanding what I am saying. Lets take Jon's death, people knew he was going to die, book readers anyway and dedicated show fans will always find these forums because they don't care about potential spoilers, I knew Jon's death through the forums and I didn't care, until you see it onscreen it doesn't have a effect on you. As a show fan I picked up on all the clues regarding Jon, I knew he was coming back, in what form remained to be seen... The books up until this point served as the basis for the show but the GRRM story has still not finished.

The fact that they left it as a cliff-hanger was a dead giveaway. Also the fact that they have been slowly building his character over 6 seasons in itself should have been telling. At this point in time the source material has not been completed or so they say. Now just think about this for a moment, If they do release the next book how long do you think it will take for the plot to be plastered all over the internet?

Do you not think that it would not spoil it for the everyday show fan, some people would just stop watching. Now how would this benefit the show if there are still 2 seasons to come? In my opinion it would not.

 

 

[Faint]

The question really is whether Daenerys will find out or, rather, whether Jon will tell her.  Obviously Jon will find out.  I have a hard time envisioning a scenario in which Jon does not find out about the biggest mystery in the series since it concerns himself.  I see little reason for Martin to go down that route since it would lessen the impact of the whole thing. 

[Evarei]

On 11.11.2016 at 5:52 PM, Lady of Whisperers said:

Agree though I think it won't just be Jon, Dany and Tyrion, because Cersei's still alive and she showrunners love her  

I actually think that we might not even get a good characterisation  and personality development of Jon, Dany and Tyrion, despite them being so important. Sure they might get many scenes, but the showrunners value "epic" and "shocking" moments more than good character development and storytelling. Jon, Dany and/ or Tyrion might act increadibly stupid and completely OOC (even for their show personalities) at some point just so we get an epic moment or a cool looking battle sequence. IMO we saw that in Season 6 already. 

It's already been 6 seasons, time for character development for the original ones is over, they're all developed. Now it's time to wrap things up. And to do so in 13 episodes things have to happen to break the story, to move the plot right to its conclusion and not meander all over the place like the last two ASOIAF books.

[Lord Friendzone]

1 hour ago, Faint said:

The question really is whether Daenerys will find out or, rather, whether Jon will tell her.  Obviously Jon will find out.  I have a hard time envisioning a scenario in which Jon does not find out about the biggest mystery in the series since it concerns himself.  I see little reason for Martin to go down that route since it would lessen the impact of the whole thing. 

I think it is neccessary for them to find out.

 

After ending of eason 7 it will make their relationship all the more interesting. What will Dany do,when she finds he's legitimate? What will Jon that he's not a Stark, not even Ned's bastard? He slept with his aunt. What about this? If they have a child from that sex, that then will they do? How it will affect them and others around. The reason why they won't meet is that they can develop relationship and then boom Bran will reveal it. [/ spoiler]

[Queen of Procrastination]

16 hours ago, Evarei said:

It's already been 6 seasons, time for character development for the original ones is over, they're all developed. Now it's time to wrap things up. And to do so in 13 episodes things have to happen to break the story, to move the plot right to its conclusion and not meander all over the place like the last two ASOIAF books.

This is not how storytelling works. If you ask writers or readers what forms a story they will usually list 3 things: 

- Plot 

- Characters

-Language

Within the Fantasy and Sci-Fi Genre many people also list Wortbildung. Now language may be a bit less important for a TV show or movie, but plot and characters are still integral. There is nothing wrong with focussing more on one aspect of the story and focussing a bit less on the other elements. This is totally fine as long as you don't negelect one element completely. There aren't many writers who excell in all three areas, even among succesful writers. Many writers are very good in one area, less good in the others. GRRM is often praised for his characters, but many readers have remarked that his language is not particulary outstanding. They wouldn't say that he is bad in that regard, just that it language is not the aspect in which he's best. Readers and the same goes for TV watchers also have their own preferences and usually find one aspect more important than the others. However, you can't negelct one aspect too much. 

Stating that the time for character development is over is wrong, because characters similar to regular people develop. We never stop developing. Even people who are 90 years old still develops. Surely not at the same speed as a 10 year old, but development is there. Character development is a natural process, because we are all affected by the people and the world around us and these things keep changing. The development of a character in a story is technically not over when a story is over. Even when you get an ending along the lines of "the prince and the princess married and lived hapily ever after". Maybe the prince and the princess get children. From what I've heard becomimg a parent affects and changes you, so they would be affected by this and develop in a certain way. The author just doesn't tell you about it, because he wants to focus on a certain part of the character's live. So yes there is always character development and characters never stop developing. 

Furthermore, just moving the plot along for the sake of moving the plot along makes plot points pretty much meaningless. What was the point of a plot point if we don't get to see how it affected the characters and the world? If there is no aftermath than something else could just have happened instead. 

Things like falling in love, losing a friend or family member, gaining power, etc. Affect the characters in completely different ways, but if we don't see how it affects the characters than it doesn't really matter anymore which of these things is happening. You could just exchange one thing for the other which makes it kind of irrelevant that a particular plot point happened in the first place. 

To give you one example: Hodor's death is often named by both book readers and show-only watchers as one of the most memorable scenes of Season 6. But what was the significance of Hodor's death for the story? Apart from being one of many shocking moments and showing us that the White Walkers are the true enemies (which I'm pretty sure every watcher had understood after Hardhome)? We had five other episodes and in none of them we saw how Bran was affected by it. He never mentioned Hodor. I can imagine a scenario in which Hodor survives, but he's really confused by everything happening around them, so he can't help Meera with carrying Bran and thus Benjen still has to save the day. Apparently Bran and Meera would still be the same characters as before and the story would pretty much be the same. We would just miss a shocking moment. To quote one of my show only friends: "Hodor was with us from the beginning" and he was part of Bran's life from before the story even started. Therefore, Bran should be affected by it, but apparently he isn't. 

Why did Dany have to go to the Dothraki, if it didn't affect her? She had a big army before and could just have stayed in Meeren. 

If all the plot point don't affect the characters and they don't develop (or it happens off screen), then we can don't need 13 Episodes to wrap the story up. I'm pretty sure it could be achieved in 2 or 3 episodes. A Battle between Cersei  and Dany with Dany winning and lots of people dying. Bran and Arya arrive in Winterfell and Bran tells Jon about Rhaegar. Jon is shortly shocked, but has no real time to think about it, because there are more important things. Sansa tells everyone about the things LF has done and he gets executed. Wall falls. Dany hears about it and goes North. Jon and Dany hook up. Big battle against the White Walkers with more people dying. End with a short info about what the surving characters are doing. All we would miss if the story is wrapped up in 3 episodes are a few further shocking moments.

Characters are what drives the story forward and they always develop. 

[Queen of Procrastination]

To add something: Character and plot development can be well balanced and one doesn't have to suffer because of the other. 

The most popular book of the series is ASOS which drives the plot forward more than the other books of the series, but also does a lot in terms of character development.Seasons 3 and 4 included most of this. 

Epic scenes can also be used for character development or sweet character moments: 

The BotB is often compared to the Battle of Helms Deep in LotR, but the difference is that BotB is only fighting, while the Battle of Helms Deep has also some character interactions in between. We have some exchanges between Aragon, Gimli, Leogolas and Théodin and we see how the women are faring during the battle. 

Even within GoT we can see a difference between the battles. 

The battle of Blackwater showed us new sides of Stannis, Cersei and Tyrion and it constantly flashed back to the women in the Red Keep. 

The Battle on Wall showed us new sides of Sam, Alliser Thorne, Gilli and Janos Slynt. It also had nice character interactions between Jon and the other NW members. 

Hardhome and BotB lack these things. 

[Meera of Tarth]

@Lady of Whisperers you are so right. Your example about Hodor made me feel  sad since I think it's one of the most sad moments from the show, but I suppose it's sad because I have seen this group of people and wolf behave as a unit and read about them in the books, but I didn't like they didn't mention him nor Summer. We just have to suppose they talked about that offscrren.

However, let's say than Bran and Meera after Hold The Door didn't have as much screentime as they deserved, barely three scenes, one of them serves as them being scaried (which is fine they don't remember Hodor at this point), and then the one with Benjen and the last very SHORT one that serves as the exposition machine.

I feel that they should have addressed this in between the second or third scene or at least they have had more time in the finale at least for them (and not only for Jon). However, they still are my fav part of the show ,and the most consistent, eventhough I really notice these effects even in them. But with more screentime they could have done it properly. For instance, Meera has an scene in which we are expected to see her remembering the death of his brother, that was fine, not enough but still good. They also developed very well the chemistry between Bran and Meera after the apocalypse of ep 5 IMO even with not much screentime. But yeah, something was missed....remembering the lost ones.

But if you extrapolate this to other characters it's just a mess. No character developpment at all in the majority of cases since s5.

[Queen of Procrastination]

11 hours ago, Drago said:

I don't think people are understanding what I am saying. Lets take Jon's death, people knew he was going to die, book readers anyway and dedicated show fans will always find these forums because they don't care about potential spoilers, I knew Jon's death through the forums and I didn't care, until you see it onscreen it doesn't have a effect on you. As a show fan I picked up on all the clues regarding Jon, I knew he was coming back, in what form remained to be seen... The books up until this point served as the basis for the show but the GRRM story has still not finished.

The fact that they left it as a cliff-hanger was a dead giveaway. Also the fact that they have been slowly building his character over 6 seasons in itself should have been telling. At this point in time the source material has not been completed or so they say. Now just think about this for a moment, If they do release the next book how long do you think it will take for the plot to be plastered all over the internet?

Do you not think that it would not spoil it for the everyday show fan, some people would just stop watching. Now how would this benefit the show if there are still 2 seasons to come? In my opinion it would not.

 

 

Ok got it, but I still don't think the everyday show fan will be spoiled. I don't know how many show watchers have read the books, but the number of readers is much lower than the number of show fans. There is not as much hype about the books as about the show. The media talks more about the show than the books. Sure there will still be many peoole who talks about TWOW once it comes out, but in order to learn about it's content you will have to look for spoilers. You need to come to this board or another site to read something about TWOWs content. Sure many magazines will have reviews, but reviewers normally don't put spoilers in the title and so you will have to read  the review in order to learn about the book's content. People need to actively do something in order to get spoiled and in these cases it's their own fault. Unless you have this annoying Facebook friend who writes something like "OMG just finished TWOW" and continues by giving a summary of the book. However, as there are fewer book readers than show watchers we should get fewer cases of this than we had cases of people who spoiled Jon's ressurection on Facebook after having watched Episode 2 of Season 6. 

On top of that TWOW won't spoil the end for you, because it will not tell you who will sit on the OT in the end (in case there is still sn IT left. It won't tell you if characters like Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion and Bran will die at the end of the story, because these characters will pretty certainly still be alive at the end of the book. In case Jaime and/or  Cersei die in TWOW this will be a spoiler for show watchers, but I bet this is something that many of them are expecting. Many storylines are so different in the show than in the books or they don't excist at all in the show, that stuff that happens in TWOW won't be a spoiler for show-watchers. I doubt many show-only watchers will care in case Victarion is going to die or in case it turns out that Aegon is fake, because they don't know who these characters are. 

[Le Cygne]

On 11/12/2016 at 9:02 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

That is good.

Just say no to the manbun.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 16. 11. 2016 at 6:59 PM, Lady of Whisperers said:

To add something: Character and plot development can be well balanced and one doesn't have to suffer because of the other. 

The most popular book of the series is ASOS which drives the plot forward more than the other books of the series, but also does a lot in terms of character development.Seasons 3 and 4 included most of this. 

Epic scenes can also be used for character development or sweet character moments: 

The BotB is often compared to the Battle of Helms Deep in LotR, but the difference is that BotB is only fighting, while the Battle of Helms Deep has also some character interactions in between. We have some exchanges between Aragon, Gimli, Leogolas and Théodin and we see how the women are faring during the battle. 

Even within GoT we can see a difference between the battles. 

The battle of Blackwater showed us new sides of Stannis, Cersei and Tyrion and it constantly flashed back to the women in the Red Keep. 

The Battle on Wall showed us new sides of Sam, Alliser Thorne, Gilli and Janos Slynt. It also had nice character interactions between Jon and the other NW members. 

Hardhome and BotB lack these things. 

Battle of the Wall and Blackwater were basically a siege in both cases. Pre battle scenes, during the battle was a time to adress some of the moments. Hardhome was ambush and it's hard to let people interact and especially since zombies are coming on them. BOtB was classic battle on the field but we had in the episode character moments so I disagree.

We had Davos and Tormund pre battle, Jon and Mel, Jon and Sansa or meeting with Ramsay. Not all fight sequences should be and will be same. Not everytime will be people interacting in the middle of the battle and having time to chat. dany and Tyrion pre battle moments, Dany and Masters parlay.

Hardhome too had plenty of character developments. Karsi is a good example how very litle screen time can serve well and explore a rather minor character. Wun Wun, Edd, Loboda, Tormund and Jon. We saw things from their perspective and valuable character developments but Hardhome was literally showcasig power of white walkers, massacre and ambush of wildlings.

You canb't really compare Battle of the Blackwater Bay and the all with Hardhome and BotB. They had pre battle scenes, but of course unlike Blackwater and the Wall no during the battle moments.

[Le Cygne]

Wrong thread...