What are Varys and Illyrio up to

[Clegane'sPup]

What are Varys and Illyrio actually up to? Varys sendsTyrion to Illyrio.  Once there Tyrion opens a chest containing a boy child’s clothes.

On one hand it seems that Illyrio and Varys were trying to put Dany on the Westeros throne. Yet Illyrio says he didn’t think that she would survive the Dothraki.

Then I find out that there are some other shenanigans going on. There is this boy who has been hiding out with JonCon for approximately 12 years.

JonCon says Varys had been adamant about the need for secrecy. The plans that he and Illyrio had made with Blackheart had been known to them alone. The rest of the company had been left ignorant. What they did not know they could not let slip.

Is young Griff Rhaegar’s Aegon or Illyrio’s son?

[Curled Finger]

I sort of like the idea of Aegon being directly related to Illyrio or Varys.   It's like a deeper betrayal of the entire history of the monarchy and still very personal to both.  Who do you think Young Griff is, Pup? 

[Clegane'sPup]

18 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I sort of like the idea of Aegon being directly related to Illyrio or Varys.   It's like a deeper betrayal of the entire history of the monarchy and still very personal to both.  Who do you think Young Griff is, Pup? 

I think Young Griff is Illyrio's kid. I just don't understand what Varys & Illyrio are up to. Why pander to Dany & her brother all the while groom Young Griff for all those years? And why involve JonCon?

 

[Curled Finger]

It took me a while to warm up to the whole Blackfyre idea, but the more I learned about the Blackfyre Rebellions and the players during that time, our Aegon being inserted onto the political front of Westeros (by Blackfyres or merely Blackfyre sympathizers) makes perfect sense.   Varys only came to Westeros during Aery's reign and he was very active in planting and tending the seeds of paranoia that ultimately caused Robert's Rebellion.   Varys came to destabilize Targaryan rule in order to make way for a Blackfyre.   For all I know Varys has that silver hair and is a Blackfyre himself.    Since the last male Blackfyre was killed the only Blackfyres who could stake a claim are in the female line.   Serra being a granddaughter or great grandaughter of Daemon is about the only way any Blackfyre could hope to take the IT.   When Rhaegar's children were killed and Illyrio's child obviously had the Targaryan features you can almost see the light bulb go off over Illyrio and Varys' heads.   I think Varys at the least, (maybe he was Serra's brother or close kin?) believes that everything in Westeros went to hell when Daemon, the strongest of Aegon 4's children (and eldest if I recall correctly), was denied the throne.  Don't research it until you have a full bottle of Excedrin because that whole time is a mess.   To be honest, I've had to go to several external sources to really understand what happened.   Once I got my head around it, the entire conspiracy was clear.  All that and Illyrio says he is to be rewarded with an official position in Young Griff's Small Council.  He's already persona non grata in Pentos, so a move west would be a good thing for him.   If Aegon had been brought forth during the War of the 5 Kings I think they might have been able to pull it off.  

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

My thought is that the plan was always to have Aegon and Golden Company return during the instability and retake the throne as a Targaryen. He is Illyrio's son by the female line of Blackfyre. The Targaryen siblings...either two options. 

A: They sent the siblings to die. Then when news of the Dragons and widowing of Dany came, they altered their plans to include marrying Dany and Aegon to legitimize beyond a shadow of a doubt, Aegons children by her as they'd be true Targs.

B: Provide a wild horde for Aegon to defeat and win the hearts of Westeros as their savior. Whether Viserys or Dany or both survived is irrelevant as they're at the head of a horde of foreign savages and have a lesser claim to Aegon who would be forged as legend in his conquest.

[GyantSpyder]

Setting aside the question of who Young Griff is and what their specific interets are in a more pragmatic sense, Varys and Illyrio seem to be "team enlightened despot" - that the problem with tyrants isn't inherently about lost autonomy, oppression or injustice, but about the wrong people being in charge. That if you managed to create a ruler that was educated and smart and had the right priorities, and you gave that person absolute power and backed them with the right administration, they would be the best form of government.

In service of that goal - in addition to their personal ambitions and other factors - they are inventing and performing an imitation of the traditional power structures (including, even, perhaps, a Tohbo Mott-forged Valyrian Steel replica of the sword Blackfyre) as a means to installing their own despot, whom they see as well-prepared for the job.

It makes sense for Varys and Illyrio to back an enlightened despot, because enlightened despots tend to be rationalists, meaning they won't overly support magic, religion or the occult, and Varys hates all those things, and because enlightened despots tend to favor protections of private property, but not traditional or hereditary rights of anyone other than themselves, which would be a huge open door into Westeros for overseas merchants without bloodline connections to the great houses or a place in the feudal structure.

Also, Varys and Illyrio both primarily think of themselves as smart, and they see their power as deriving from their intelligence and cunning, so a ruler that prioritizes intelligence is a ruler in their own image. Most people just happen to support political philosophies in which the rulers exhibit traits like themselves.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

They really want to put the Targaryens back on the throne or they are trying to unify the Blackfyres bloodlines back with the Targaryens .

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎31‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 2:22 AM, Curled Finger said:

He's already persona non grata in Pentos,

Can you give evidence for that?

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Can you give evidence for that?

Yes of course, I should have cited in the original post.   Here is Illyrio telling Tyrion about Serra:  

A maiden? I know the way of that." Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough, for Serra."   Tyrion 2 ADWD

[Greywater-Watch]

Ah ok, I see, you refer to that. I would not have put it as strong as "persona non grata", to me it just that he could not get into a very high political office anymore or maybe have no longer access to the marriage of a noble woman from Pentos.

But I remember, when Tyrion just arrives from his escape from KL, Illyrio has to leave for some hours to attend some kind of magister counsel. Must be a high office though. maybe not political but for merchants. Unfortunately I do not have the precise lines at hand.

[Maxxine]

On 10/31/2016 at 4:04 AM, Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies said:

My thought is that the plan was always to have Aegon and Golden Company return during the instability and retake the throne as a Targaryen. He is Illyrio's son by the female line of Blackfyre. The Targaryen siblings...either two options. 

A: They sent the siblings to die. Then when news of the Dragons and widowing of Dany came, they altered their plans to include marrying Dany and Aegon to legitimize beyond a shadow of a doubt, Aegons children by her as they'd be true Targs.

B: Provide a wild horde for Aegon to defeat and win the hearts of Westeros as their savior. Whether Viserys or Dany or both survived is irrelevant as they're at the head of a horde of foreign savages and have a lesser claim to Aegon who would be forged as legend in his conquest.

I think most people who believe Aegon was the plan from the very beginning. While I can see it, to me either one of these options lead there being a plot hole. If option A is true why not just kill them from the beginning of the story. Why keep alive two people who would probably have a better claim (a better claim bc it is virtually certain they are who they say they are. Succession wise if aegon is actually aegon I think he would have the better claim). The smartest thing is to kill Viserys & leave Dany to marry Aegon. If option B is true that's taking a huge risk bc what if Aegon loses. It's not as if the Dothraki are pushovers.  

Because of the potential plot hole, I think it makes more sense that Illyrio & Varys were just hitching their wagon to both horses. They've provided enough help to both sides where they could be rewarded by either side. 

Im not sure about Aegon being Illyrio's son. Though I believe Aegon is a Blackfyre

[The Sleeper]

Why would two Pentosi  gangsters scheme and plot for two decades in order to place an unknown kid over a foreign throne and in case of one of them devote his life to the prospect?

1.  They're Bond villains.
2. It's personal

Sign me up for the theory that Aegon is a Illyrio's son and a descendant of the Blackfyres. It explains a lot of things. Illyrio would be trying to give his son his birthright. Varys who is his boyhood friend would make sense trying to seemingly restore Targaryen regime in the current timeline while undermining it in the past. It would explain why he told Kevan that Aegon is here. His real name is probably Aegon Mopatis. It would explain the Golden Company's debts of blood.

Think of the introduction to the Golden Company and how Connington's dramatic revelation is met by a complete lack of surprise. Later in the scene the Company are discussing among themselves Illyrio's plans regarding Dany and Viserys, which shows that they've been considering invading Westeros for some time and know way more than Jon does.

[Greywater-Watch]

All the above given theories are based on a motivation of Varys and Illyrio Mopatis to put a Targaeryen (or Blackfyre) back on the Iron Throne. Maybe enforced by the fact that e.g. Varys was from the Blackfyre bloodline as well.

Some actors in ASOIAF (e.g. Quaithe, Melisandre, Stannis, Jon Snow, Marwyn) seem to be aware of a larger picture, i.e. the threat of the Long Night.

I wonder if such clever and well informed people like Varys and Illyrio are completely unaware of the larger picture. I admit, that (as far as I can recall it) there is no textual evidence for this until now.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

All the above given theories are based on a motivation of Varys and Illyrio Mopatis to put a Targaeryen (or Blackfyre) back on the Iron Throne. Maybe enforced by the fact that e.g. Varys was from the Blackfyre bloodline as well.

Some actors in ASOIAF (e.g. Quaithe, Melisandre, Stannis, Jon Snow, Marwyn) seem to be aware of a larger picture, i.e. the threat of the Long Night.

I wonder if such clever and well informed people like Varys and Illyrio are completely unaware of the larger picture. I admit, that (as far as I can recall it) there is no textual evidence for this until now.

I don’t think anyone south of the Neck, except Sam & Gilly consider the Others & the white walkers a threat. Seems to me that the game of thrones players are wrapped up in their own schemes, but then again I forget a lot of stuff until someone reminds me.

Maester Aemon may have written the Citadel. Now that Sam is at the Citadel maybe word will seep out.

I recently discovered or rather re-discovered in the Lost Lord chapter that JonCon has a resentment toward Varys:

 

Twelve years is a long time. Even the men who'd ridden with him might not recognize the exile lord Jon Connington of the fiery red beard in the lined, clean-shaved face and dyed blue hair of the sellsword Griff. So far as most of them were concerned, Connington had drunk himself to death in Lys after being driven from the company in disgrace for stealing from the war chest. The shame of the lie still stuck in his craw, but Varys had insisted it was necessary. "We want no songs about the gallant exile," the eunuch had tittered, in that mincing voice of his. "Those who die heroic deaths are long remembered, thieves and drunks and cravens soon forgotten."   What does a eunuch know of a man's honor? Griff had gone along with the Spider's scheme for the boy's sake, but that did not mean he liked it any better. Let me live long enough to see the boy sit the Iron Throne, and Varys will pay for that slight and so much more. Then we'll see who's soon forgotten.

 

I’m wondering who picked Setpa Lemore & Half Maester Haldon to join the group. Duckfield came from the Golden Company via request from JonCon to Strickland. And I’m wondering what else JonCon holds against Varys.

[PCK]

We know what they're up to. The question is what's their stake in sitting Aegon on the throne? 

[LordImp]

I think Aegon is Illyrio's son and Varys' nephew. Though i think Varys is aiming for something higher than crowning Aegon. I think Varys' ultimate goal is tied to magic and the sorcerer who cut of his balls .

[Clegane'sPup]

On 11/12/2016 at 8:46 AM, LordImp said:

I think Aegon is Illyrio's son and Varys' nephew. Though i think Varys is aiming for something higher than crowning Aegon. I think Varys' ultimate goal is tied to magic and the sorcerer who cut of his balls .

Do you think the mage that Mirri Maz Durr spoke about, Marwyn, could be the one who cut Varys?

 

GoT c.61 Ser Jorah Mormont spoke up. "A maester?" "Marwyn, he named himself," the woman replied in the Common Tongue. "From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech." "A maester in Asshai," Ser Jorah mused. "Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?"

 

Actually, yeah, I think I would like for Varys to get some revenge.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 10/30/2016 at 5:27 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

What are Varys and Illyrio actually up to? Varys sendsTyrion to Illyrio.  Once there Tyrion opens a chest containing a boy child’s clothes.

On one hand it seems that Illyrio and Varys were trying to put Dany on the Westeros throne. Yet Illyrio says he didn’t think that she would survive the Dothraki.

Then I find out that there are some other shenanigans going on. There is this boy who has been hiding out with JonCon for approximately 12 years.

JonCon says Varys had been adamant about the need for secrecy. The plans that he and Illyrio had made with Blackheart had been known to them alone. The rest of the company had been left ignorant. What they did not know they could not let slip.

Is young Griff Rhaegar’s Aegon or Illyrio’s son?

 

He is rhaegar's son, raised until he was between 3 and 5 by Illyrio until he was between, who may or may not be Daemon Bastardfyre's heir, which is why Fatty McFatterton holds a special place in his heart for the boy King. Varys arranges this out of Loyalty to Aerys, who brought him to westeros and gave him a position of considerable trust and power using Illyrio's vast finances to purchase the most skilled sellsword company in the world to help the boy king claim his birthright.  Sending Dany to marry a horse lord would remove her from actual power (dothraki do not cross the sea) and it also gave her insane brother something to focus on instead of begging for troops to invade a strongly protected nation while simultaneously giving something to an insecure king bob to focus on so varys could act without suspicion.  Both Brother and sister were not expected to survive the trip through the dothraki sea leaving (f)Aegon as the only Targ heir. Dany hatching Dragons was a fluke, but cockless and fatty are smart dudes and realize that not only did the meek little girl survive, but she now had followers and Dragons. the Boy king marrying her would give him absolute legitimacy as now they would be two targs with dragons to back them up so Varys sent barristan and another man with no junk to help steer her back to pentos. Dany being a badass has other plans so now the boy king makes his way to meet her only to get redirected by a whoring dwarf. So technically, young griff is both rhaegar's and Illyrio's son 

[ShimShim]

I do think that he is Illyrios son. What I don't know about is him being a Blackfyre. The Targs/blackfyre aren't the only ones with valyrian blood. His wife was from Lys right? And it is said that there is a large amount of valyrian blood is still in Lys. 

[LordImp]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Do you think the mage that Mirri Maz Durr spoke about, Marwyn, could be the one who cut Varys?

 

 

GoT c.61 Ser Jorah Mormont spoke up. "A maester?" "Marwyn, he named himself," the woman replied in the Common Tongue. "From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech." "A maester in Asshai," Ser Jorah mused. "Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?"

 

 

 

Actually, yeah, I think I would like for Varys to get some revenge.

Marwyn is a good candidate. But i also like the idea of the sorcerer being a red priest . 

When Varys was cut he heard a voice in the flames answering the sorcerer. We know that Marwyn is into glass candles , maybe what Varys describes is a glass candle. 

But Mel is seeing visions in the flames. Maybe the sorcerer was a red priest who communicated through fire ?