Queer characters in fantasy

[David Selig]

6 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

A minor bit of controversy was made about Commander Shepard was able to have a sexual relationship with a man in Mass Effect 3 despite the female Shepard being able to have a sexual relationship with Liara from the start. The fact there's always bisexual one-sex women races but never one-sex male races in sci-fi.

But that is different. Asari aren't an all female race at all, Bioware said so. Everyone totally believed them.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Jo498 said:

So is this basically Erotica in a fantasy setting or does it have a plot?

Oh, not even close to erotica. It's a fantasy political thriller. Assassinations, espionage, secret deals, wars, and constant betrayals. Even so, it's mostly all offscreen in terms of viscera. Frankly, I wouldn't even say it was R rated despite the pretense of sex.

More PG-13.

Maybe European PG-13 because, yes, America is that prudish but it's really tame IMHO.

[The Marquis de Leech]

9 hours ago, Jo498 said:

So is this basically Erotica in a fantasy setting or does it have a plot?

It's an Anne Rice analogy, not Laurel K. Hamilton. It's not erotica-level by any stretch; it's a political thriller with a protagonist who just happens to be an elite masochistic prostitute.

C.T. Phipps' PG-13 rating works, I think. The sexual content is only a bit greater than ASOIAF, and there is much less graphic violence.

[Darth Richard II]

ASOIAF would in no way get a pg 13 rating.

[karaddin]

The excerpts I've read from Kushiels have prose way too purple for me to enjoy it, so I've steered clear of it.

9 hours ago, David Selig said:

But that is different. Asari aren't an all female race at all, Bioware said so. Everyone totally believed them.

There are actually fan theories about the Asari that I'd *love* if they were teased out over the many Mass Effect games, the kind of subtle story telling that could have worked for Indoctrination Theory too. They don't actually look the way we seem them, that's just how they're appearing to the player, but they appear to the other species as if similar to that species too, and their whole reproductive model is extremely parasitic.

Of course the fact that all humans see them as attractive female is still telling in who the game is catered to, and its one case where it could have just worked better if you got to specify your orientation like your gender and I have no idea what they'd do if you're bi or pan...maybe not have them monogendered after all?

[C.T. Phipps]

The Asari are a blatant fan appeal to the straight male gamer. Albeit, I'm honestly not sure why. I like hair.

It's not the first time scifi has done this trope anyway.

Or video games.

 

[karaddin]

Yeah, but if they actually turned out to be a 'villainous' species of sorts, there is stuff to be done in that space that isn't simply a retread. I highly doubt it will be taken that way, and there is a lot of complexity and nuance to telling a story where the individuals are noble but the species as a whole is a parasite that is almost certainly beyond Biowares skill, but hey. I have to hope in something, and its not the real world anymore

[C.T. Phipps]

38 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yeah, but if they actually turned out to be a 'villainous' species of sorts, there is stuff to be done in that space that isn't simply a retread. I highly doubt it will be taken that way, and there is a lot of complexity and nuance to telling a story where the individuals are noble but the species as a whole is a parasite that is almost certainly beyond Biowares skill, but hey. I have to hope in something, and its not the real world anymore

I think turning the Asari into shoggoths is a bridge too far personally but I do think they did dial back nicely in the fact they don't breed with other races but just pretend to.

[Contrarius+]

On 11/15/2016 at 5:30 AM, Yukle said:

On 11/15/2016 at 5:22 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

The fact there's always bisexual one-sex women races but never one-sex male races in sci-fi.

LMB -- Ethan of Athos. Also, biologically it's just a lot easier to deal with parthenogenesis than figuring out how to reproduce males.

 

Other LGBT characters:

It may have been mentioned in an earlier thread, but I don't see it here -- Alabaster in The Fifth Season.

Characters in The Mirror Empire, whom I don't remember because I dnfed the book.

Several in The Traitor Baru Cormorant.

And a lot more that just don't occur to me right now.

[The Marquis de Leech]

15 minutes ago, Contrarius+ said:

LMB -- Ethan of Athos. Also, biologically it's just a lot easier to deal with parthenogenesis than figuring out how to reproduce males.

While we're at it, The Left Hand of Darkness renders gender in reproduction completely moot.

Science-fiction definitely tends to be more creative with its portrayal of Queer characters than fantasy. The Forever War posits a future of compulsory homosexuality as a cure for overpopulation; our straight protagonist returns home a freak.

[Contrarius+]

11 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

While we're at it, The Left Hand of Darkness renders gender in reproduction completely moot.

Science-fiction definitely tends to be more creative with its portrayal of Queer characters than fantasy. The Forever War posits a future of compulsory homosexuality as a cure for overpopulation; our straight protagonist returns home a freak.

It's been decades since I read either book. In re The Forever War, it seems to me that long-term contraceptives would be a lot more effective. ;-)

[C.T. Phipps]

Fantasy has somewhat better luck with it.

Satyrs are, of course, a one-gender male race just as Dryads are the reverse.

Obviously, neither can replicate without members of other races but that's not a big issue IMHO.

At least in funny strange sci-fi and fantasy.

[Lyanna Stark]

On 2016-11-15 at 11:29 AM, Yukle said:

Can the main character have romantic relationships with men? If not, then it's even worse: the women have a sexuality that is conveniently fluid and accommodates a male power fantasy whereas the player character is a predetermined straight man.

Oh goodness no. Male characters are only ever interested in women, so it really feels like

a. as you say, women's sexuality is very conveniently fluid and accommodating

b. the male character acts as a driving force, and women's sexuality are always directed towards this main character, so it has no existance or purpose aside from being there for the male lead

c. the titillation and objectification are front and centre

d. if there is even a hint of female desire, it is outright mocked and ridiculed (this was actually probably THE most offensive part of The Witcher games, I expected a-c, cos well, it might be lighter or more obvious, but those things are always there, but the last one just made me fucking livid. What stupid fucking hypocrisy is that shit, pardon my French.)

 

Karaddin,

Yes, that was my impression of Kushiel as well. Everyone in it is super-duper pretty as well, so it just feels quite ridiculous all around. If you're not drowning in the purple, you are getting annoyed at all the flawless amazesauce supermodel, übersexy characters walking around in supreme perfection, constantly.

[C.T. Phipps]

While Googling myself (don't judge me), I had a nice moment of amusement. On the Vox Populi website, my books were trashed by commentators as one of the worst books they ever read.

Quote

I must vent a little bit about the wort book series I've ever tried to read, The Supervillainy Saga, or as prefer to call it: The Adventures of GammaMan.

I got through the first book because of 2 days spent travelling, but book two was unfinishable and I won't waste money on the third. The premise of the series sounded good, a normal guy gets superpowers and decides to be a villain instead of a hero if only I had known.

This "character" is every Gamma archetype: secret king, "snarky" coward, tries to be evil but is "too good" to be a proper villain, women are attracted to him for no reason he can discern (although he thinks the secret to women is to "treat them as normal human beings"), all the women are on pedestals and explicitly better than GammaMan, it just never ends!

If you want to see pure gamma dreck this is it.

Don't waste your time or money on it!

This amuses me to no end.

It does actually put lie to a weakness in my first book, though, which I felt the need to correct in the previous one which was having the characters (female or otherwise) revolve around the central protagonist too much. I felt the book improved markedly in its depiction of people when there were a lot more female (and otherwise) characters with lives (love or otherwise) which did not involve the protagonist.

[Darth Richard II]

Gamma? Wtf is gamma?

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Gamma? Wtf is gamma?

I assume it's like a Beta Male except even worse.

Assuming Alpha Male=Enormous asshole.

[Darth Richard II]

That's the dumbest thing I've heard all week. And its been a dumb week.

[Contrarius+]

Just adding to the list of books with major LGBT characters --

I started Perdido Street Station yesterday, and I've already noticed that two of the major characters are bi (one character) or gay (another character -- we don't know whether she's bi at this point), and it's treated as incidental to their participation in the plot. The scandalous element of the first character's depiction is not that she's bi, but that her lover is of another species. ;-)

Actually, I may be mischaracterizing her as bi. It's complicated. None of the females of her species enjoy sex with the males of their own species -- it is physically unpleasant. They all enjoy intraspecies female-female sex, however. And her interspecies lover is male. So, whatever that makes her!

[Lyanna Stark]

4 hours ago, Contrarius+ said:

I started Perdido Street Station yesterday, and I've already noticed that two of the major characters are bi (one character) or gay (another character -- we don't know whether she's bi at this point), and it's treated as incidental to their participation in the plot. The scandalous element of the first character's depiction is not that she's bi, but that her lover is of another species. ;-)

Actually, I may be mischaracterizing her as bi. It's complicated. None of the females of her species enjoy sex with the males of their own species -- it is physically unpleasant. They all enjoy intraspecies female-female sex, however. And her interspecies lover is male. So, whatever that makes her!

Oh God Lin. I liked Lin. And now I have to stop myself from spoiling you.

But yes, Mieville has a lot of more incidental sexuality. It is sort of there, but doesn't take centre stage. One of the main characters in Iron Council is gay as well, but it's never made into a thing, it's just there.

[Yukle]

16 hours ago, Lyanna Stark said:

d. if there is even a hint of female desire, it is outright mocked and ridiculed (this was actually probably THE most offensive part of The Witcher games, I expected a-c, cos well, it might be lighter or more obvious, but those things are always there, but the last one just made me fucking livid. What stupid fucking hypocrisy is that shit, pardon my French.)

This also ties into the idea of women being the expected moral compass in a sexual relationship. The man has all the feelings, he just can't help it, and the woman needs to remind him to stay on track. Or, should I say, the "right" woman. The woman who sleeps around is always morally flawed - the femme fatale is an enduring myth.