I thought Lysa/Petyr sent the assassin after Bran?

[Wrl6199]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Disclaimer: I believe it was Joff. I do not believe it was LF. 

But I'm pretty sure that LF lost the dagger to Bob in a bet.

From this we know Bob won it from someone, but we don't know who.

 

yeah dint they pretty much say that it was Jeffrey. I mean Tyrion said that he thought it was Jeffrey trying to impress his "father" but it still seems weird. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

30 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

yeah dint they pretty much say that it was Jeffrey. I mean Tyrion said that he thought it was Jeffrey trying to impress his "father" but it still seems weird. 

Yes, it was Joff. That wasn't really the point of my post. I was only trying to show that LF did lose it to Bob in a bet. But it really doesn't matter, I just think it was a good find.

[sweetsunray]

I agree that Robert indeed won a bet with LF over Jaime's loss, and that LF betting pro-Jaime (again) with a Baratheon was not just a hint to us, but a hint to Ned as well. LF gave him a clue about his own lie. But Ned Stark didn't catch it.

Also, that the dagger was Robert's has another tragic insight on Ned deciding not to show the dagger to Robert.

 

Quote

 

"If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

"Most likely the king did not know," Littlefinger said. "It would not be the first time. Our good Robert is practiced at closing his eyes to things he would rather not see."

Ned had no reply for that. The face of the butcher's boy swam up before his eyes, cloven almost in two, and afterward the king had said not a word. His head was pounding.

Littlefinger sauntered over to the table, wrenched the knife from the wood. "The accusation is treason either way. Accuse the king and you will dance with Ilyn Payne before the words are out of your mouth. The queen … if you can find proof, and if you can make Robert listen, then perhaps …"

"We have proof," Ned said. "We have the dagger."

"This?" Littlefinger flipped the knife casually end over end. "A sweet piece of steel, but it cuts two ways, my lord. The Imp will no doubt swear the blade was lost or stolen while he was at Winterfell, and with his hireling dead, who is there to give him the lie?" He tossed the knife lightly to Ned. "My counsel is to drop that in the river and forget that it was ever forged." (aGoT, Eddard IV)

 

 

[Wrl6199]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I agree that Robert indeed won a bet with LF over Jaime's loss, and that LF betting pro-Jaime (again) with a Baratheon was not just a hint to us, but a hint to Ned as well. LF gave him a clue about his own lie. But Ned Stark didn't catch it.

Also, that the dagger was Robert's has another tragic insight on Ned deciding not to show the dagger to Robert.

 

 

Who did he even win against. I dint even remember. I mean who did Jaime win against. But yeah Ned stark did a lot of stupid stuff in the first book.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

5 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Who did he even win against. I dint even remember. I mean who did Jaime win against. But yeah Ned stark did a lot of stupid stuff in the first book.

Jaime didn't win, he lost. To Loras Tyrell.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Who did he even win against. I dint even remember. I mean who did Jaime win against. But yeah Ned stark did a lot of stupid stuff in the first book.

At the Hand's Tourney he was unhorsed by Sandor.  But before that loss he won against Andar Royce, Bryce Caron and Selmy in Sansa's POV.

[Wrl6199]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

At the Hand's Tourney he was unhorsed by Sandor.  But before that loss he won against Andar Royce, Bryce Caron and Selmy in Sansa's POV.

I mean who did Jaime lose to so that little-finger would lose his knife to so that Robert would get the knife and Jeffrey would get the knife to hire the assassin. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

That does make some sense.  It's too bad, it would be more interesting if the Citadel and glass candles were involved.  Very tedious of the assassin to keep repeating 'nobody was supposed to be here' to himself.  I have my doubts about Joffrey being too concerned about what Robert thinks.  Cersei is making an assumption at this point.  But there it is.  

Yeah, it was a bit of a let-down, wasn't it?

But I do think that Joffrey cared very much what Robert thought, probably because Robert basically ignored him most of the time. The way Joffrey bragged and mouthed off to Tywin about Robert was pretty striking.

Quote

Lord Tywin studies his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. "Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather," said Cersei.

He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

 

[Consigliere]

33 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

I mean who did Jaime lose to so that little-finger would lose his knife to so that Robert would get the knife and Jeffrey would get the knife to hire the assassin. 

He lost to Loras in the final tilt during the tourney held for Joffrey's 12th name day. LF backed Jaime and ended up losing the dagger to Robert.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Yeah, it was a bit of a let-down, wasn't it?

LOL!  I just have a hard time believing that Joffrey would hand over something as rare and precious as a valyrian steel dagger to some nobody.  I wonder if the 'assassin' and I use the term lightly, was directed to steal it in some manner.  I think the arrival of direwolves would have been a big flag to some agency at the Citadel perhaps.  We know glass candles can be used to track and communicate with people at a distance. Yes, it's crackpot but I keep thinking of Bran's dream of climbing the tower with no windows and encountering two gargoyle/lions that begin to stalk him.  His desperate plea that he didn't see or hear anything.  And I wonder how much hidden knowledge they have about the Starks and the Others. I'm expecting big things from Sam in the next book.  Har.

[Wrl6199]

39 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  I just have a hard time believing that Joffrey would hand over something as rare and precious as a valyrian steel dagger to some nobody.  I wonder if the 'assassin' and I use the term lightly, was directed to steal it in some manner.  I think the arrival of direwolves would have been a big flag to some agency at the Citadel perhaps.

Yeah i agree. Like he dint seem to have much of an interest in impressing his father before this. Plus i dint know who Jeffrey would have trusted to do something like that. But yeah i think your explanation is actually i great theory. I could see the citadel being worried about the returns of direwolves.

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Yeah i agree. Like he dint seem to have much of an interest in impressing his father before this. Plus i dint know who Jeffrey would have trusted to do something like that. But yeah i think your explanation is actually i great theory. I could see the citadel being worried about the returns of direwolves.

This is the dream:

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

I've speculated that using a glass candle requires fire and blood, the root of all sorcery according to Marwyn.  That the candle is used like a looking glass to view the fire in a manner akin to the Red Lot using the flames but looking through the candle into the fire.   Hence the eyes glowing red as hot coals in a brazier.  Sam notices a brazier with something burnt in it when he first enters Marwyn's room.  Where it seems Marwyn was viewing and listening to the conversation between Sam and Alleras.  We know you can mark someone using touch to contact them at a distance as demonstrated by Quaith with Dany.  So I wonder if someone was spying in this manner when Robert's and his court went to Winterfell.  Certainly that would be of interest to someone at the Citadel.  

Or the very simple explanation could be that Martin needed a device that would stand out to move the LF plot forward as a friend pointed out on another thread.

But who isn't tired of waiting for the next book at this point and wants something dramatic to happen even if we make it up ourselves. 

 

[Kingmonkey]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  I just have a hard time believing that Joffrey would hand over something as rare and precious as a valyrian steel dagger to some nobody.  I wonder if the 'assassin' and I use the term lightly, was directed to steal it in some manner.  I think the arrival of direwolves would have been a big flag to some agency at the Citadel perhaps.  We know glass candles can be used to track and communicate with people at a distance. Yes, it's crackpot but I keep thinking of Bran's dream of climbing the tower with no windows and encountering two gargoyle/lions that begin to stalk him.  His desperate plea that he didn't see or hear anything.  And I wonder how much hidden knowledge they have about the Starks and the Others. I'm expecting big things from Sam in the next book.  Har.

I think we have to conclude that GRRM hadn't decided just how rare and valuable Valyrian steel was when he wrote this, tbh. Nobody's falling over themselves about this incredibly valuable dagger. The assassin doesn't immediately flee to the free cities to sell it and live like a king.  People seem happy to bet it on unimportant wagers and nobody's surprised. Yet a couple of books later we learn Tywin's riches have not been enough to convince someone to part with a VS sword. I suspect GRRM initially thought of it as being like Damascus steel -- flashy and expensive but available -- and only later decided it was essentially mithril. 

[Danelle]

18 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

I think we have to conclude that GRRM hadn't decided just how rare and valuable Valyrian steel was when he wrote this, tbh. Nobody's falling over themselves about this incredibly valuable dagger. The assassin doesn't immediately flee to the free cities to sell it and live like a king.  People seem happy to bet it on unimportant wagers and nobody's surprised. Yet a couple of books later we learn Tywin's riches have not been enough to convince someone to part with a VS sword. I suspect GRRM initially thought of it as being like Damascus steel -- flashy and expensive but available -- and only later decided it was essentially mithril. 

Good point.

On the other hand perhaps a dagger is less valuable than an actual sword?

In regards to Joffrey, given the fact that he was not particularly smart or discreet, perhaps he had hoped that his father would have deduced that he was behind the attack against Bran and praise his son for his kindness...

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I think we have to conclude that GRRM hadn't decided just how rare and valuable Valyrian steel was when he wrote this, tbh. Nobody's falling over themselves about this incredibly valuable dagger. The assassin doesn't immediately flee to the free cities to sell it and live like a king.  People seem happy to bet it on unimportant wagers and nobody's surprised. Yet a couple of books later we learn Tywin's riches have not been enough to convince someone to part with a VS sword. I suspect GRRM initially thought of it as being like Damascus steel -- flashy and expensive but available -- and only later decided it was essentially mithril. 

Possibly, but I don't make that conclusion given Bran's importance as a character to the story.  The question posed in story is why would anyone want to kill Bran.   I think it's possible that some other agency has an interest in the Stark kids at this point.  Someone who knows the relevance of direwolves making an appearance.

[sweetsunray]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Possibly, but I don't make that conclusion given Bran's importance as a character to the story.  The question posed in story is why would anyone want to kill Bran.   I think it's possible that some other agency has an interest in the Stark kids at this point.  Someone who knows the relevance of direwolves making an appearance.

Well, why would anyone knowing the relevance of direwolves making an appearance target Bran, a boy in a coma and believed to be as good as dead anyway? Why not Rickon? Why not Robb? Why not Jon? Why not the wolves?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Possibly, but I don't make that conclusion given Bran's importance as a character to the story.  The question posed in story is why would anyone want to kill Bran.   I think it's possible that some other agency has an interest in the Stark kids at this point.  Someone who knows the relevance of direwolves making an appearance.

It is possible, it is not what actually happened. The author is perfectly clear: "It was Joffrey, OK? It was his deranged attempt at buttering up to daddy. Move on".

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

It is possible, it is not what actually happened. The author is perfectly clear: "It was Joffrey, OK? It was his deranged attempt at buttering up to daddy. Move on".

That's very arrogant of you.  How is it that people became so self important on this website.  So, bite me OK?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's very arrogant of you.  How is it that people became so self important on this website.  So, bite me OK?

I'm terribly sorry, if you felt insulted by someone pointing that out, but wrong is wrong. Yes, I get, that the author's solution is kind of disappointing. But his solution goes. And all the theories proposing alternative solutions to puzzles already solved are just wishful thinking.

But, to honor your wishes, I'll try to not discuss with you again. Anything, ever. Clearly you find that offensive, and I do not wish to offend. Take care.

[LynnS]

 

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I'm terribly sorry, if you felt insulted by someone pointing that out, but wrong is wrong. Yes, I get, that the author's solution is kind of disappointing. But his solution goes. And all the theories proposing alternative solutions to puzzles already solved are just wishful thinking.

But, to honor your wishes, I'll try to not discuss with you again. Anything, ever. Clearly you find that offensive, and I do not wish to offend. Take care.

Coming onto a thread and telling someone to 'move on' isn't a conversation.  It's sufficient to say that you don't buy it because...