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I thought Lysa/Petyr sent the assassin after Bran?


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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

We also have the disconnect between Cersei's assertion that she didn't want Jaime to kill Bran for what he saw, but then to kill Arya for her role in the Mycah incident on the Kings Road. Why would she blithely assume she could just frighten Bran into silence, but Arya must be killed for what she knows? At best, Arya could get Joff into a little bit of trouble, while Bran could disallow her children's inheritance and cause her and Jaime to lose their heads.

There is nothing in the books that says Cersei wanted to kill Arya for the King's Road incident. She only wanted her punished.

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“The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers,” Cersei Lannister said. “Robert, I want her punished.”

 

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I wonder who would want Bran killed. FFS he's just a lovely boy who had already suffered enough. Also he happens to have plenty of powerful relatives. His father is Warden of the North, his grandpa is LP of the Riverlands and his cousin is heir to the Vale. Those are quite nasty enemies to make, even for someone powerful enough like lets say the king or the queen. So we can easily conclude that the one who did so had a very valid reason to not wanting Bran to live. Who knows maybe Bran saw something he shouldnt?

I also wonder who could possibly have access to Tyrion things. The man is the queen's brother and access to his stuff is pretty is pretty restricted. Not to forget that the person who did this must really hate Tyrion's guts. I mean why go in such great lengths to pin this crime to the imp? Till then the man has done harm to nobody did he?

So we must find find someone with a motive to have Bran killed and to have Tyrion blamed for it + a person whose close enough to get into Tyrion's chambers and not get caught. I wonder whom this person could possibly be. Which Lannister could send killers to kill innocent bastards just to make sure they won't be of any hindrance in the future and who would pin a murder to the imp despite its pretty obvious that he was innocent?

PS if Joffrey wanted somebody dead then he would have aimed his target to Arya not Bran. She's the one who made him look silly in front of daddy and his future wife

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7 minutes ago, devilish said:

I wonder who would want Bran killed. FFS he's just a lovely boy who had already suffered enough. Also he happens to have plenty of powerful relatives. His father is Warden of the North, his grandpa is LP of the Riverlands and his cousin is heir to the Vale. Those are quite nasty enemies to make, even for someone powerful enough like lets say the king or the queen. So we can easily conclude that the one who did so had a very valid reason to not wanting Bran to live. Who knows maybe Bran saw something he shouldnt?

I also wonder who could possibly have access to Tyrion things. The man is the queen's brother and access to his stuff is pretty is pretty restricted. Not to forget that the person who did this must really hate Tyrion's guts. I mean why go in such great lengths to pin this crime to the imp? Till then the man has done harm to nobody did he?

So we must find find someone with a motive to have Bran killed and to have Tyrion blamed for it + a person whose close enough to get into Tyrion's chambers and not get caught. I wonder whom this person could possibly be. Which Lannister could send killers to kill innocent bastards just to make sure they won't be of any hindrance in the future and who would pin a murder to the imp despite its pretty obvious that he was innocent?

PS if Joffrey wanted somebody dead then he would have aimed his target to Arya not Bran. She's the one who made him look silly in front of daddy and his future wife

Why would the person need access to Tyrion's things?

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No. it was Robert's.

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The prince's own dagger had a jeweled pommel and inlaid goldwork on the blade, Tyrion seemed to recall. At least Joff had not been stupid enough to use that. Instead he went poking among his father's weapons. Robert Baratheon was a man of careless generosity, and would have given his son any dagger he wanted . . . but Tyrion guessed that the boy had just taken it. Robert had come to Winterfell with a long tail of knights and retainers, a huge wheelhouse, and a baggage train. No doubt some diligent servant had made certain that the king's weapons went with him, in case he should desire any of them.

The blade Joff chose was nice and plain. No goldwork, no jewels in the hilt, no silver inlay on the blade. King Robert never wore it, had likely forgotten he owned it. Yet the Valyrian steel was deadly sharp . . . sharp enough to slice through skin, flesh, and muscle in one quick stroke. I am no stranger to Valyrian steel. But he had been, hadn't he? Else he would never have been so foolish as to pick Littlefinger's knife. (aSoS, Tyrion VIII)

 

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"Tyrion always backed me in the lists," Jaime said, "but that day Ser Loras unhorsed me. A mischance, I took the boy too lightly, but no matter. Whatever my brother wagered, he lost . . . but that dagger did change hands, I recall it now. Robert showed it to me that night at the feast. His Grace loved to salt my wounds, especially when drunk. And when was he not drunk?"

It was Bob's. Taken by Joff, given to assassin. Cat presents it to LF, LF sees opportunity to pin it on Tyrion. Creating more friction between Stark and Lannister.

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18 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Do you really think LF would trust Joff with the task of killing a Stark? Joff is 12 at this time, an immature 12 year old and that. LF entrusting a 12 year old Joff with this would be extremely out of the careful, meticulous character George has created in LF. 

Is there any evidence in the books which may support this idea?

True, and no there is no evidence. But I never said this is what actually happened, just that this is how Littlefinger could have been behind it. And I don't see how Bran's death benefits anyone but Littlefinger.

It also doesn't make sense for Joffrey himself to want Bran dead. Why? Just because Tyrion slapped him and made him apologize to Ned and Cat? If he was that vindictive, then Arya would have never made it to King's Landing.

And I don't see LF as all that meticulous. I would describe him as more nimble and intuitive than other players. Any number of schemes could have gone wrong if things had worked out only slightly differently. Tyrion only happened on Cat by chance on the King's Road. If he had made it back to KL, and Renly refuted the wager lie, LF is in the soup. If the Tyrell-Lannister deal didn't come together in time, bye-bye to all his appointments. Even this thing with Sansa is already coming apart, considering all the clues she gave to Miranda on the way down the mountain.

At some point, I expect he's going to get burned, perhaps literally.

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18 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

There is nothing in the books that says Cersei wanted to kill Arya for the King's Road incident. She only wanted her punished.

 

I don't have the chapter or the exact quote at hand, but one of the things that Jaime tells Payne after their sparring in either Kings or Dragons is that Cersei wanted him to kill Arya if he found her first.

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29 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't have the chapter or the exact quote at hand, but one of the things that Jaime tells Payne after their sparring in either Kings or Dragons is that Cersei wanted him to kill Arya if he found her first.

You're right!  I found the quotes:

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX

Her face darkened. "I told you, I will never serve . . ."

". . . such foul creatures as us. Yes, I recall. Hear me out, Brienne. Both of us swore oaths concerning Sansa Stark. Cersei means to see that the girl is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground . . ."

Brienne's homely face twisted in fury. "If you believe that I would harm my lady's daughter for a sword, you—"

"Just listen," he snapped, angered by her assumption. "I want you to find Sansa first, and get her somewhere safe. How else are the two of us going to make good our stupid vows to your precious dead Lady Catelyn?"

The wench blinked. "I . . . I thought . . ."

"I know what you thought." Suddenly Jaime was sick of the sight of her. She bleats like a bloody sheep. "When Ned Stark died, his greatsword was given to the King's Justice," he told her. "But my father felt that such a fine blade was wasted on a mere headsman. He gave Ser Ilyn a new sword, and had Ice melted down and reforged. There was enough metal for two new blades. You're holding one. So you'll be defending Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own steel, if that makes any difference to you."

 “Ser, I . . . I owe you an apolo . . .”

    He cut her off. “Take the bloody sword and go, before I change my mind. There’s a bay mare in the stables, as homely as you are but somewhat better trained. Chase after Steelshanks, search for Sansa, or ride home to your isle of sapphires, it’s naught to me. I don’t want to look at you anymore.”

    “Jaime . . .”

    “Kingslayer,” he reminded her. “Best use that sword to clean the wax out of your ears, wench. We’re done.”

    Stubbornly, she persisted. “Joffrey was your . . .”

    “My king. Leave it at that.”

    “You say Sansa killed him. Why protect her?”

    Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt. And because he deserved to die. “I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.” Jaime smiled thinly. “Besides, kingslayers should band together. Are you ever going to go?”

    Her big hand wrapped tight around Oathkeeper. “I will. And I will find the girl and keep her safe. For her lady mother’s sake. And for yours.” She bowed stiffly, whirled, and went.

    Jaime sat alone at the table while the shadows crept across the room. As dusk began to settle, he lit a candle and opened the White Book to his own page. Quill and ink he found in a drawer. Beneath the last line Ser Barristan had entered, he wrote in an awkward hand that might have done credit to a six-year-old being taught his first letters by a maester:

    Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King’s Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth.

    When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom. Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.

    Whatever he chose . . .

 

A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV

The castle yard was full of eyes and ears. To escape them, they sought out Darry's godswood. There were no sparrows there, only trees bare and brooding, their black branches scratching at the sky. A mat of dead leaves crunched beneath their feet.

"Do you see that window, ser?" Jaime used a sword to point. "That was Raymun Darry's bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry's bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword . . . but you know that story, don't you?" He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. "As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love. "It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ."

The pockmarks on Ser Ilyn's face were black holes in the torchlight, as dark as Jaime's soul. He made that clacking sound.

Jaime is full of bravado -- despite what he may say, however, he just wasn't born on the same side of the coin as his dark sister...

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20 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We also have the disconnect between Cersei's assertion that she didn't want Jaime to kill Bran for what he saw, but then to kill Arya for her role in the Mycah incident on the Kings Road. Why would she blithely assume she could just frighten Bran into silence, but Arya must be killed for what she knows? At best, Arya could get Joff into a little bit of trouble, while Bran could disallow her children's inheritance and cause her and Jaime to lose their heads.

Indeed!

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19 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

There is nothing in the books that says Cersei wanted to kill Arya for the King's Road incident. She only wanted her punished.

 

 

23 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You're right!  I found the quotes:

Jaime is full of bravado -- despite what he may say, however, he just wasn't born on the same side of the coin as his dark sister...

Yeah, I finally found it to. But in all honesty, I think there is some wiggle room. Did Cersei come right out and tell Jaime that's what she wanted, or did he just assume it?

 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

True, and no there is no evidence. But I never said this is what actually happened, just that this is how Littlefinger could have been behind it. And I don't see how Bran's death benefits anyone but Littlefinger.

It also doesn't make sense for Joffrey himself to want Bran dead. Why? Just because Tyrion slapped him and made him apologize to Ned and Cat? If he was that vindictive, then Arya would have never made it to King's Landing.

And I don't see LF as all that meticulous. I would describe him as more nimble and intuitive than other players. Any number of schemes could have gone wrong if things had worked out only slightly differently. Tyrion only happened on Cat by chance on the King's Road. If he had made it back to KL, and Renly refuted the wager lie, LF is in the soup. If the Tyrell-Lannister deal didn't come together in time, bye-bye to all his appointments. Even this thing with Sansa is already coming apart, considering all the clues she gave to Miranda on the way down the mountain.

At some point, I expect he's going to get burned, perhaps literally.

We can only hope :thumbsup:. LF is only doing so well because he stayed under everyone's radar as someone without real power. Now that he is the Lord Protector of the Vale and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (for what that is worth) he has significantly more power and can no longer keep his scheming so secret.

You are also correct that he is not so much meticulous, but rather makes the most of his situation, playing the powerful pieces against each other, whoever they may be.

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Lysa/Petrye, no. Cersei and Jaime discussing it between them summize it was prob Joff who overheard Robert saying better for the boy if he died than live in a coma and crippled. The assassin pretty much said that he is already dead before he found Cat with him. Cersie and Jaime think Joff was trying to impress his father. The signs were there long before that with the mother cat pregnant in the kitchens of the Red Keep. Joff was psycho-monster.

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14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Yeah, I finally found it to. But in all honesty, I think there is some wiggle room. Did Cersei come right out and tell Jaime that's what she wanted, or did he just assume it?

 

According to Cersei's modus operandi, following Tywin's example, of outsourcing her assassinations to one catspaw or another, note how when at first Robert wouldn't bend to her will she then uses sex as a tool to get Jaime instead to do her bidding.  In the middle of the sexual act, the way I understand it, she called out 'I want...' which Jaime at first assumed meant him (after having lost his mother early in life, and having been deprived of affection by the Lannisters, that's always been Jaime's greatest desire, to be loved in return for 'the things he does for love'), only to find out that Cersei wanted him to kill or at least maim Arya -- which I'm presuming Cersei clarified for him to disabuse him of any romantic illusions he might still have harbored!

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12 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

it was prob Joff who overheard Robert saying better for the boy if he died

We only have Cersei's word to go on for this, without any way of testing her assertion, considering any witnesses are dead (Robert and Joffrey) or absent (Myrcella's in Dorne at this point).

So, if you believe Cersei -- sure!  I don't.

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1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

We only have Cersei's word to go on for this, without any way of testing her assertion, considering any witnesses are dead (Robert and Joffrey) or absent (Myrcella's in Dorne at this point).

So, if you believe Cersei -- sure!  I don't.

I would not put it past her, she had a lot to lose if the boy woke up and spoke. However, the assasination attempt turned what appeared as Bran falling accidentally to a conspiracy.

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1 minute ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I would not put it past her, she had a lot to lose if the boy woke up and spoke. However, the assasination attempt turned what appeared as Bran falling accidentally to a conspiracy.

Cersei's paranoia, like that of Aerys, is a vicious cycle in which paranoia is projected giving rise to further paranoia.  As both Tywin and Littlefinger note, Cersei in her defensive lashing-out tends to dig herself in deeper, without giving much thought to the consequences for anyone, including herself:

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IX

Tyrion hooted with laughter. "My sweet sister might have a word or two to say about that!"

"Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council—our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? Whose notion was it to make this Janos Slynt a lord? The man's father was a butcher, and they grant him Harrenhal. Harrenhal, that was the seat of kings! Not that he will ever set foot inside it, if I have a say. I am told he took a bloody spear for his sigil. A bloody cleaver would have been my choice." His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. "And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench." He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false …"

Tyrion knew. "Spikes," he sighed. "Heads. Walls."

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"Yes, Father." She could feel herself blushing.

He did not hold her kiss against her. "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."

 

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28 minutes ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

We can only hope :thumbsup:. LF is only doing so well because he stayed under everyone's radar as someone without real power. Now that he is the Lord Protector of the Vale and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (for what that is worth) he has significantly more power and can no longer keep his scheming so secret.

You are also correct that he is not so much meticulous, but rather makes the most of his situation, playing the powerful pieces against each other, whoever they may be.

Should he instigate the killing of Robyn, and should Robert be his not Jon Arryn's biological son, then it might be a case of 'killing two birds with one stone' (a robin and a mockingbird with one Alayne Stone..!)

If there's one thing the gods do not forgive it's kinslaying, even if inadvertent.  That's another interpretation of 'the seed is strong'...Kill your own seed (as Theon did with the 'miller's boys') and the seed comes back in force to bite you!

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14 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Cersei's paranoia, like that of Aerys, is a vicious cycle in which paranoia is projected giving rise to further paranoia.  As both Tywin and Littlefinger note, Cersei in her defensive lashing-out tends to dig herself in deeper, without giving much thought to the consequences for anyone, including herself:

 

I always had the impression that Cersei's paranoia didn't begin until after Joff is killed. I always thought his death was her point of change in regards to the paranoia. Yes, she was protective of her kids before. But she wasn't as bat shit crazy as she is following Joff's death. I don't know if her character before the Purple Wedding would do this. The one after, certainly. 

ETA: She did make bad decisions before, but I don't think these were due to her paranoia.

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2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I always had the impression that Cersei's paranoia didn't begin until after Joff is killed. I always thought his death was her point of change in regards to the paranoia. Yes, she was protective of her kids before. But she wasn't as bat shit crazy as she is following Joff's death. I don't know if her character before the Purple Wedding would do this. The one after, certainly. 

ETA: She did make bad decisions before, but I don't think these were due to her paranoia.

What definition of 'paranoia' are you using, so I can understand if we're on the 'same page' or not?!

To what exactly are you referring when you say her 'pre-purple wedding' character wouldn't do 'this'?  

Her obsessive attempts to forestall imagined threats, prompting her to act on these imaginings with no or at best a tenuous basis in reality, have a much longer history than that, and can arguably be classified as 'paranoid'-- e.g. murdering Melara (whether motivated by undue suspicion or inordinate jealousy).

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53 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What definition of 'paranoia' are you using, so I can understand if we're on the 'same page' or not?!

To what exactly are you referring when you say her 'pre-purple wedding' character wouldn't do 'this'?  

Her obsessive attempts to forestall imagined threats, prompting her to act on these imaginings with no or at best a tenuous basis in reality, have a much longer history than that, and can arguably be classified as 'paranoid'-- e.g. murdering Melara (whether motivated by undue suspicion or inordinate jealousy).

Perhaps you are right. Maybe she was just as paranoid before the PW. I had forgotten about Melara.

But I'm stil not ready to sat she was responsible for the attempt on Bran. Although you have me closer now...

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