Prophecies and visions: Past & Future

[Impbread]

Mirri Maz Duur. Got to add her I think she is a shadowbinder and know she works blood magic.

[Greywater-Watch]

22 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What about adding "dragon dreamers" Examples would be Daenys, Daeron the Drunkard, Dany, Daemon II Blackfyre, and more.

I thought of it in the first place too. But so many people dreaming in the books - it would be a huge chart of ist own....

P.S.: And I am too lazy for that

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Another to add to your list:

The drowned god

Patchface

Figurative and/or actual drowning/near-drowning as catalyst

Future vision

Probably highly accurate, but at the expense of being highly cryptic and therefore open to Interpretation

Patchface is too cryptic for me, but substantially your are right.

I do not recall, did Aeron Damphair really have visions?

As to drowning/near-drowning as catalyst: Same argumentation I gave for OtherFromAnotherMother (see above).
 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Varamyr is a Warg. He refers to himself as a Warg primarily above all other labels but he also has control over other animals such as the shadow cat, snowbear and eagle.

The reason he is a Warg is because he has three wolve companions who he shares the skin of often.

 

A person who can skinchange more than just dogs and wolves is a skinchanger. 

A person who goes into just dogs and woloves is a warg. 

Quote

The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes."

Varamyr refers to himself as a skinchanger as well as a warg, because he is both. 

Quote

Abomination, he heard Haggon saying. It was almost as if he were here, in this very room. "She is just some ugly spearwife," Varamyr told him. "I am a great man. I am Varamyr, the warg, the skinchanger, it is not right that she should live and I should die." No one answered. There was no one there. Thistle was gone. She had abandoned him, the same as all the rest.

Again, wargs can go into dogs and wolves. 

Skinchangers go into more than just dogs and wolves. They are stil wargs but more, they are skinchangers.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 hours ago, Impbread said:

Mirri Maz Duur. Got to add her I think she is a shadowbinder and know she works blood magic.

She wasn't a shadowbinder she just had told that she was thought how to do it. The only shadowbinders in the books are Mel and Quaithe.

[ravenous reader]

28 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

wargs can go into dogs and wolves. 

Skinchangers go into more than just dogs and wolves. They are still wargs but more, they are skinchangers.

And skinchangers of trees are still skinchangers but more -- they're greenseers!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

And skinchangers of trees are still skinchangers but more -- they're greenseers!

Yup, 1 in a 1,000. 

[Macgregor of the North]

14 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

A person who can skinchange more than just dogs and wolves is a skinchanger. 

A person who goes into just dogs and woloves is a warg. 

Varamyr refers to himself as a skinchanger as well as a warg, because he is both. 

Again, wargs can go into dogs and wolves. 

Skinchangers go into more than just dogs and wolves. They are stil wargs but more, they are skinchangers.

Quite simply I'll counter with this. 

A skinchanger who keeps a wolf/Wolves or Direwolve as their companion/s that they have a bond with and can also slip their skin, is a Warg. They are obviously a skinchanger as they slip the Wolves skin(and other skins) but the fact they have that bond with their wolf/Wolves which makes them one and the same with the creature this makes them a Warg. I don't understand how you are missing this.

There are four people directly so far who have been referred to as such, although the term has been used to name groups of Wildlings too(yes there are Wargs beyond the Wall), but here are the four specific.

Varamyr, Robb, Bran and Jon. The defining  characteristic is that they are bonded and joined with their... Wolves! Therefore, even though these guys could skinchange other animals if they tried, Bran and Varamyr can, Robbs gone(not sure if he could)and Jon just hasn't, they are Wargs due to the connection with their Wolves. The Wolf brothers Varamyr calls them, and that's coming from an absolute authority on the matter.

By your logic Wargs only go into dogs or Wolves? Is that what you are saying? Your post makes little sense in that regard.

You say this "a person who goes into just dogs and wolves is a Warg". 

then you say "Again"(as though I missed it lol) Wargs can go into dogs and Wolves"

Well, yeah, of course they can, but the reason the term even exists in asoiaf, the reason people are called Wargs in these books is because they have a Wolf/Direwolve or Wolves in their company who they are one and the same with, and share a special bond. They are what the authority on the matter calls the 'Wolf brothers', Wargs.

And for the record- Bloodraven never is or has been referred to as a Warg. There is some hyperbole(at the moment that's all it is!) in the Novellas that packs of gray wolves hunted down his foes etc etc but we have never once read about him keeping a wolf/wolves or Direwolve and sharing a bond with it like a Warg/'Wolf brother' does.

And until we do he will remain a wizard, dreamer, sorcerer, greenseer and last greenseer to mention a few names he has gone by. Never Warg though.

I'll ask again. Why do you think Borroq and Orell are only referred to as Skinchangers when they could very very likely slip a Wolves skin if they want? 

[Macgregor of the North]

@OtherFromAnotherMother @ravenous reader

Here is part of an interview with GRRM on the matter that will clear this up once and for all. And what we are trying to clear up here is that Bloodraven is not a Warg. He is not classed by himself as one, or by any of the other characters in any book including the very knowledgable COTF/Singers or even Coldhands.

I have been trying to tell you both that a Warg is defined as a Warg by his connection to his wolf/wolves or Direwolve. They are bound to the creature/s. Their is a bond there that makes them one and the same, part of each other.

 

Moderator: <Elio> to <Moderator>: In SoS, Jon mentions that he sees skinchangers _and_ wargs among the wildlings. What's the difference?

 

GRRM: A warg is bound to a wolf. Skinchanger is a more general term. All wargs are skinchangers, but not all skinchangers are wargs.

So no, Bloodraven is not a Warg lads. He is not bound to any Wolf and as far as we know never was, although he is a skinchanger.

The part that says "not all skinchangers are Wargs", that is in regards to the fact that not all skinchangers have a wolf they are bound to. That is the only defining thing that makes a skinchanger a Warg. He has a wolf or wolves he is bound to.

Known Wargs in the story are Varamyr(three wolves), Robb (Greywind), Bran (Summer) and Jon Snow (Ghost). Arya and Rickon may come to be described as Wargs at some stage but BR never will, and never has.

[Macgregor of the North]

I'll throw in for good measure also, nobody can 'Warg' anything! They can slip the skin of or skinchange a being. Simples.

The term Warg is strictly for what i have explained. This isnt me trying to dictate how we interpret the story but if we are investing as much time as we do in the story, which is alot, i think it makes sense to use the correct terminology and understand why these terms are used and what they mean.

That may just be me though.

[cgrav]

"Warg" outside of ASOIAF is an Old Norse and Old English word for wolf, more specifically the Norse god-wolf Fenrir, who kills Odin at Ragnarok. It's not a common term, but it does have an established meaning.

[Macgregor of the North]

12 minutes ago, cgrav said:

"Warg" outside of ASOIAF is an Old Norse and Old English word for wolf, more specifically the Norse god-wolf Fenrir, who kills Odin at Ragnarok. It's not a common term, but it does have an established meaning.

Exactly, which simply backs up what I'm saying that in asoiaf, a Warg refers to a skinchanger who has a wolf and is bound to it. As if they are one with the Wolf type of thing. 

Where Warg is a term, in and out of asoiaf, 'Warging' never ever has been except where it has been created by people wrongly thinking it refers to someone skinchanging another being. 

Example: Bran 'Warged' into Hodor.

Nope. He absolutely did not.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Exactly, which simply backs up what I'm saying that in asoiaf, a Warg refers to a skinchanger who has a wolf and is bound to it. As if they are one with the Wolf type of thing. 

Where Warg is a term, in and out of asoiaf, 'Warging' never ever has been except where it has been created by people wrongly thinking it refers to someone skinchanging another being. 

Example: Bran 'Warged' into Hodor.

Nope. He absolutely did not.

Thanks for the clarification.  Forthwith, I shall desist from using as a verb and restrict to lupine bond!

Now, while you're at it, could you please advocate against that awful non-existent term 'weirnet' -- it's so irritating, despite being used so widely!  

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Thanks for the clarification.  Forthwith, I shall desist from using as a verb and restrict to lupine bond!

Now, while you're at it, could you please advocate against that awful non-existent term 'weirnet' -- it's so irritating, despite being used so widely!  

Knew I would get you to come round

Weirnet is understandable actually lol as the tree system kind of resembles the net I suppose, where information is stored and can be accessed.

'Warging' on the other hand... well, I've already explained myself on that front haven't I 

[Greywater-Watch]

Thanks to all for the vivid discussion. I have allowed myself to complement the initial post (first page) based on the propositions and remarks you made. In detail:

• Macgregor of the North has finally convinced me (partly), that Bloodraven might not me a Warg. So I opened a separate category "Wargs" allowing me to insert other known "Wargs" like Arya, Jon; even if the information revealed through warging is borderline to be a real vision (IMHO). At least as far as I remember it. Sorry for using the term "warging" again....
• Mirri Maz Duur. I added her to "Blood Magic", though her prophecy is borderline to me. It could just be distilled down to saying to Daenerys: "Yep, you are barren now, bitch."
• added Patchface (drowned); I do not remember another character making prophetic-like remarks due to drowning.
• added Benerro to "R'hllor"
• added Melisandre to "Shadowbinder" too, though I cannot see that any of her prophecies would root in other than fire-looking
• I did not add "Dragon Dreamers" (Daenerys) as it was proposed, because I just do not remember any such vision

[Macgregor of the North]

10 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Thanks to all for the vivid discussion. I have allowed myself to complement the initial post (first page) based on the propositions and remarks you made. In detail:

• Macgregor of the North has finally convinced me (partly), that Bloodraven might not me a Warg. So I opened a separate category "Wargs" allowing me to insert other known "Wargs" like Arya, Jon; even if the information revealed through warging is borderline to be a real vision (IMHO). At least as far as I remember it. Sorry for using the term "warging" again...

Haha cool mate

Im aware I won't be able to stop people using the term Warging but I simply wanted to put my thoughts out there to promote understanding of the term Warg, and who it applies to.

Rickon can be classed as a Warg in my eyes as his Wolf mirrors his moods and is undoubtedly bonded to him in a very strong way. Although we have never saw him 'skinchange' (lol) his wolf and he is never classed as a Warg 'in story' I believe he is.

Im interested actually to see if upon his return to the story he can slip Shaggys skin.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

8 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@OtherFromAnotherMother @ravenous reader

Here is part of an interview with GRRM on the matter that will clear this up once and for all. And what we are trying to clear up here is that Bloodraven is not a Warg. He is not classed by himself as one, or by any of the other characters in any book including the very knowledgable COTF/Singers or even Coldhands.

I have been trying to tell you both that a Warg is defined as a Warg by his connection to his wolf/wolves or Direwolve. They are bound to the creature/s. Their is a bond there that makes them one and the same, part of each other.

 

Moderator: <Elio> to <Moderator>: In SoS, Jon mentions that he sees skinchangers _and_ wargs among the wildlings. What's the difference?

 

GRRM: A warg is bound to a wolf. Skinchanger is a more general term. All wargs are skinchangers, but not all skinchangers are wargs.

So no, Bloodraven is not a Warg lads. He is not bound to any Wolf and as far as we know never was, although he is a skinchanger.

The part that says "not all skinchangers are Wargs", that is in regards to the fact that not all skinchangers have a wolf they are bound to. That is the only defining thing that makes a skinchanger a Warg. He has a wolf or wolves he is bound to.

Known Wargs in the story are Varamyr(three wolves), Robb (Greywind), Bran (Summer) and Jon Snow (Ghost). Arya and Rickon may come to be described as Wargs at some stage but BR never will, and never has.

Fair enough. If George says it is so, it must be so. Thanks for the clarification. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Im interested actually to see if upon his return to the story he can slip Shaggys skin.

I would be surprised if we don't see some evidence of this.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

 

• I did not add "Dragon Dreamers" (Daenerys) as it was proposed, because I just do not remember any such vision

It's your chart and it's awesome.  But just to clarify,  several Targs and Blackfyres have prophetic dreams. Again, take it or leave it.

Dany is one of them. She dreams of her dragons before they hatch. GoT 11:

Quote

Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid …

And again in chapter 23:

Quote

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

Daenys the dreamer was a Targ that had a dream of the doom of Valyria, which is why her father left prior to the doom. This is in TWoIaF, which I do not have atm.

Daeron the Drunkard had a dream that he saw Dunk standing over a dead dragon, which turned out to be Baelor Breakspear. That's from The Hedge Knight. Also don't have atm. 

Aemon amay also have them. From Feast, chapter 26.

Quote

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one. 

You don't have to put it on the chart if you don't want to. I am just trying to explain a little more on what they are.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

 

• Mirri Maz Duur. I added her to "Blood Magic", though her prophecy is borderline to me. It could just be distilled down to saying to Daenerys: "Yep, you are barren now, bitch."

I agree. I don't see MMD as prophetic at all. When she says: 

Quote

“When will he be as he was?” Dany demanded.

“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,” said Mirri Maz Duur. “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”

She is saying never, but in a much more poetic manner. It is not meant to be prophetic, IMO.

[cgrav]

6 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I agree. I don't see MMD as prophetic at all. When she says: 

She is saying never, but in a much more poetic manner. It is not meant to be prophetic, IMO.

I think the subtext here is that MMD and Dany think it means "never", but that it has some truth in symbols. It's not prophetic in-story, only to the reader. Just brainstorming, I'd say it means that the Long Night v2 will come down in Essos and then be vanquished in Westeros, which would complete the AA/Last Hero cycle. Obviously this doesn't refer to Drogo coming back himself, but rather the Sun he symbolizes.

The story is soaked in these metaphors, so hesitate to throw out anything that sounds like a prediction built around established symbols, even if the "prophecy" is only apparent to the reader. It's a device used over and over in the story, where a visual description or choice of words sumbolizes a bigger idea that's not directly related to the scene in which they appear.