He would have killed me but for Howland Reed.

[essosi watch]

Spoiler

Most readers suppose (influenced by the show maybe) that HR did some crannogmen trick and injured/backstabbed Arthur Dayne during the fight so Ned Stark was able to win.

I'm not completely convinced yet.
Remember Brandon fighting Littlefinger? He would have killed him but for Catelyn Tully.
I mean, do we know what kind of relationship was between HR and AD?
I know, poor choice of words. I'm not suggesting they were about to marry each other or something, but when you think of it a bit, back then, it was
Brandon (pretty good fighter)

against Petyr (not exactly famous for fighting skills)

with Catelyn (future family member of the first, good friend of the latter) in the background.

And Brandon maybe wasn't madly in love with Cat but he promised to spare Petyr's life, well, out of chivalry.

Similarly, in the ToJ fight, we have:
Arthur Dayne (damn good fighter) 

against Ned Stark (famous for his honor, not fighting skills) 

with Howland Reed ( ??? of the first, good friend of the latter) in the background.
 Now is it that hard to imagine that HR simply asked Ser Arthur to spare Ned's life and Ser Arthur, being the greatest knight of his era, promised not to kill Ned, well, out of chivalry..? You know, the same man who stopped when the Smiling Knight's sword had too many notches and let him fetch another one.
The uncertain part is, of course, why would  Ser Arthur have promised such thing to Howland??
In Brandon's case, Catelyn was supposed to be his wife. She was going to be part of his future family, and this way, Brandon expressed his respect for her. You know, the same man who was referred to as "the gallant fool".
Do you think it's possible that Ser Arthur was in similar position, and for some reason (his sister, Lady Ashara Dayne, obviously) considered Howland Reed a future family member?

It could be even the reason why Howland was there with Ned. HR might have accompanied Ned just because Ned knew about mutual respect befween HR and Ser Arthur and maybe relied on it a bit or hoped that it would make things easier.

So, if you think that for some reason this scenario is impossible, don't hesitate to point it out. 

 

 

[ApostolinO]

If Howland talked their way of the fight, how did Arthur die?  And if he did not die I'm not sure I like the idea of yet another presumed dead character coming back. Unless he died somewhere else but that creates a hundred more questions. I personally believe that Howland just fought the way crannogmen fight that Ned might deem dishonorable.

[Lord Vance II]

I don't see Howland Reed being able to talk the Kingsguard's Arthur Dayne out of orders from Rhaegar, especially out of a battle he presumably should have won. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I also don't believe that Howland talked Arthur out of his vows, I believe that he used magic and killed him.

[urielisko]

This is a tricky one.

IIRC Arthur was reportedly killed under ToJ and Ned took Dawn back to Starfall as a gesture of honouring and exceptional opponent.

On the other hand, there's the whole R+L=J thing which, if true, would mean that Arthur and Ned didn't really have deadly quarrel and every reason to end the 7 vs. 3 encounter without any mutual killings altogether.

But my reading of the text is that they did fight and almost all of them died. AFAIR Ned's fever dream in the black cell ends with "no, now it ends" when it all looks as they are about to start fighting. It could be that they mostly killed each other when Howland came up with the idea to maybe try explaining stuff, but it doesn't really strike me as likely.

Which actually makes my understanding of ToJ skirmish a point against R+L=J.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

5 hours ago, essosi watch said:

Do you think it's possible that Ser Arthur was in similar position, and for some reason (his sister, Lady Ashara Dayne, obviously) considered Howland Reed a future family member?

Welcome!

There's a fairly popular theory that Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne =  Meera + Jojen

I wouldn't say it's totally impossible, though more on the unlikely side. It'd be a pretty pleasant twist though.

[jthurman14]

Interesting, but I find it unlikely. By this time the KG had to have known what happened to the AT and RT, they were no longer guarding Rhaegars love child. They were guarding King Jon. No way they were walking away. On my first reading I assumed that HR used poisoned arrows or something similar to slow down AD. Ned seems none o proud of saying "if not for Howland Reed". 

There are possibilities of course. I don't see this one as necessary.  

[Tini]

1 hour ago, urielisko said:

This is a tricky one.

IIRC Arthur was reportedly killed under ToJ and Ned took Dawn back to Starfall as a gesture of honouring and exceptional opponent.

On the other hand, there's the whole R+L=J thing which, if true, would mean that Arthur and Ned didn't really have deadly quarrel and every reason to end the 7 vs. 3 encounter without any mutual killings altogether.

But my reading of the text is that they did fight and almost all of them died. AFAIR Ned's fever dream in the black cell ends with "no, now it ends" when it all looks as they are about to start fighting. It could be that they mostly killed each other when Howland came up with the idea to maybe try explaining stuff, but it doesn't really strike me as likely.

Which actually makes my understanding of ToJ skirmish a point against R+L=J.

What did Ser Arthur have to live for? He was a King's Guard. He had the option of serving the new king, Robert Baratheon, or be executed. He could've fled - but that would've left a stain on his, on his family's, honor. All he could hope for was an honorable death - a death in battle.  I believe that was the intention behind the fight - not to win, but to die honorably. This would not necessarily speak against R+L=J - Lyanna would not have wanted them to kill Ned Stark, and they did not.

If Ser Arthur didn't fight to lose, he had at least reached the conclusion that the tower's purpose, his purpose for being there, had come to an end. Even if they killed Ned's group, others would've followed. The KG would've left the tower, after the fight. Including whatever had kept them there.

I think the presence of 3 KG at the tower actually backs up the theory that R+L=J. Half of the Targaryen KG (including its commander) were present there. This points to more than fulfilling a dead prince's last orders, or an accident - it points to the presence of someone of royal blood, and more important, to them, than Viserys and Rhaella.

Howland Reed who expected to find Lyanna at the tower, may have added things up, and confronted Ser Arthur with his conclusion.

- Howland may then have reminded Ser Arthur that Lyanna had lost one brother, and her father, to Aerys Targaryen. He may have reminded Ser Arthur that Lyanna would not want to lose another brother to her folly. That might have given Ser Arthur pause, and Ned Stark the break he needed. If that didn't suffice, there were other things he may have told them:

- He may have accused the KG of betraying their vows, of betraying Aerys, and Elia. They were sworn to Aerys but not present when he died. They were not there to protect Rhaegar's wife and children. They didn't follow Viserys and Rhaella to Dragonstone, or Viserys and Daenerys to Essos. They left that to Ser Willem Darry - "a good man, but not a King's Guard".  The KG at the tower were close to Rhaegar, and involved in Rhaegar's plotting against Aerys - Howland maybe didn't know that, but Ser Arthur and the KG would've known the truth in his words regardless.

- He may have told them that Ned Stark would never hurt Lyanna, or a child of Lyanna's blood. He may have asked them what they intended to do with a baby. He may have succeeded in making Ser Arthur realize that the baby would be safer with his uncle than with an outlawed knight.

- He may have told them he knows magic, could use magic to help Lyanna. Ser Arthur was no midwife, and no skilled healer.

 

[Chris Mormont]

I am not going to bring up the show's scene, since we have seen way too many changes big and small to rely on its accuracy, but it is pretty obvious that since only Ned and Howland Reed survived it was 2 against 1 in the end.  Thus Howland may have done a number of things to save Ned during that final battle which did not include magic or convincing.  Maybe Ned means that he would hav been no match for Dayne had it been one on one.

[Maxxine]

For this theory to work, I think it would mean that Dayne survived the TOJ, which is a popular theory that I would love to be true but I don't have particularly high hopes. As someone above, if all it was is HR talking Dayne out of it why did Dayne end up dead. Even if he agreed to spare Ned would he just let Ned kill him? I doubt it. And I doubt that Ned did something like kill Dayne while his defenses were down or his back was turned. 

Because I think Dayne didn't survive the TOJ, I'm just going to go with Reed did something like use magic or stabbed Dayne in the back to save Ned's life

[Makk]

The three Kingsguard were prepared to do anything to put Jon on the throne. 3 against 7 and if Arthur Dayne somehow won that, he would would not just throw away the his vow and the deaths of his other two kingsguard and surrender. That scenario doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

The problem with this theory is that it would have meant Dayne surviving, and based on Neds thoughts I don't see how that's possible.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@essosi watch

Please add spoiler tags to show stuff! Some people (like me) are waiting for the next book to come out before watching the show.

Spoiler

"Most readers suppose (influenced by the show maybe) that HR did some crannogmen trick and injured/backstabbed Arthur Dayne during the fight so Ned Stark was able to win."

 

[Light a wight tonight]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I also don't believe that Howland talked Arthur out of his vows, I believe that he used magic and killed him.

We see Meera using her net and frog spear in the fashion of the Roman retiarius from their gladiatorial games, and she says that she learned it from Howland. The retiarius usually beat his opponent who was armed with a sword and shield. So between Howland and Ned they were able to beat Dane, even though he was the superior fighter. At least that's my take on things.

[Kingmonkey]

Frog to the face, that's how Howland defeated Arthur Dayne. Classic Crannogman trick. I thought this was well known now?

Howland's frog was called Kekex, and he was a stone cold killer. Never cross a Crannogman armed with a frog.

 

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

26 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

We see Meera using her net and frog spear in the fashion of the Roman retiarius from their gladiatorial games, and she says that she learned it from Howland. The retiarius usually beat his opponent who was armed with a sword and shield. So between Howland and Ned they were able to beat Dane, even though he was the superior fighter. At least that's my take on things.

I wouldn't say that retiari won too often. They were a late addition to the gladiatorial arts, more of a gimmick than anything. Lanistas would never allow their most talented and prized fighters to take up the trident and net. 

[SFDanny]

30 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Frog to the face, that's how Howland defeated Arthur Dayne. Classic Crannogman trick. I thought this was well known now?

Howland's frog was called Kekex, and he was a stone cold killer. Never cross a Crannogman armed with a frog.

 

With great apologies and respect to Aristophanes, I have to say you may not be far off. Poison darts made from the skin of frogs may well have provided the edge. I do prefer Happy Ent's version of what he calls his "superwarg" theory. A sort of homage to "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance". With Howland Reed cast in John Wayne's role.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Except Aerys declared Viserys his heir ahead of Rhaegar's line (if my memory is in place) before jaime killed him, so there was never a "king jon" if rlj is true

Now the 3 kgs might have forsaken viserys out of loyalty to rhaegar, wich would make them supreme hipocrites

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Frog to the face, that's how Howland defeated Arthur Dayne. Classic Crannogman trick. I thought this was well known now?

Howland's frog was called Kekex, and he was a stone cold killer. Never cross a Crannogman armed with a frog.

 

I like it.

[Schwarze Sonne]

13 hours ago, essosi watch said:

  Hide contents

Most readers suppose (influenced by the show maybe) that HR did some crannogmen trick and injured/backstabbed Arthur Dayne during the fight so Ned Stark was able to win.

I'm not completely convinced yet.
Remember Brandon fighting Littlefinger? He would have killed him but for Catelyn Tully.
I mean, do we know what kind of relationship was between HR and AD?
I know, poor choice of words. I'm not suggesting they were about to marry each other or something, but when you think of it a bit, back then, it was
Brandon (pretty good fighter)

against Petyr (not exactly famous for fighting skills)

with Catelyn (future family member of the first, good friend of the latter) in the background.

And Brandon maybe wasn't madly in love with Cat but he promised to spare Petyr's life, well, out of chivalry.

Similarly, in the ToJ fight, we have:
Arthur Dayne (damn good fighter) 

against Ned Stark (famous for his honor, not fighting skills) 

with Howland Reed ( ??? of the first, good friend of the latter) in the background.
 Now is it that hard to imagine that HR simply asked Ser Arthur to spare Ned's life and Ser Arthur, being the greatest knight of his era, promised not to kill Ned, well, out of chivalry..? You know, the same man who stopped when the Smiling Knight's sword had too many notches and let him fetch another one.
The uncertain part is, of course, why would  Ser Arthur have promised such thing to Howland??
In Brandon's case, Catelyn was supposed to be his wife. She was going to be part of his future family, and this way, Brandon expressed his respect for her. You know, the same man who was referred to as "the gallant fool".
Do you think it's possible that Ser Arthur was in similar position, and for some reason (his sister, Lady Ashara Dayne, obviously) considered Howland Reed a future family member?

It could be even the reason why Howland was there with Ned. HR might have accompanied Ned just because Ned knew about mutual respect befween HR and Ser Arthur and maybe relied on it a bit or hoped that it would make things easier.

So, if you think that for some reason this scenario is impossible, don't hesitate to point it out. 

It's H + A = M & J again!

I support this theory fully. It's just that somehow so many people hate this theory so much they went on and on in denial such as how some textual evidence isn't enough, fanfic etc. And no one talked about it ever since.

I suppose your theory is impossible because people would be in total denial about it for some reasons.