Jon Snow: Pre-series

[Rob Storm]

I don't generally love these hypothetical questions but I'm asking this mainly to get a poll of how people view certain social statuses both in Westeros and the North. Stay with me:

If all had gone "normally" in life would Jon Snow have been an adequate consort to either Jeyne Poole or Alys Karstark? With Alys he could potentially be lord of Karhold and with Jeyne maybe the Steward/Castellan-in-waiting at ole Winterfell.  Maybe Alys is more likely simply because Cat would want him eventually out of Winterfell but at the same time that makes him a Lord of a major house and "bastard threat to Robb".  Or simply was he destined to be a virgin bastard member of the Night's Watch? Or do you have other ideas, maybe  marry a lady of Bear Island(Grandpa Mormont loved him)?

[DMC]

Alys - no way Rickard would marry his only daughter to a bastard, even if all three of his sons were alive.  Moreover, even if he was willing, Cat would indeed be vehemently against (and likely even Ned himself), since a Karstark marriage would indeed raise the legitimacy of Jon as a bastard threat to Robb.  But, that's because the Karstarks are pretty high on the nobility ladder.  The Pooles, OTOH, seem to be decidedly low.  So sure, I could maybe see a Jon/Jeyne match in terms of social status.  However, can't see Cat being too thrilled that he would then presumably stick around Winterfell as an adult AND have its steward as a father-in-law.  So, if Ned's alright with being celibate, I guess.

[Rob Storm]

33 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Alys - no way Rickard would marry his only daughter to a bastard, even if all three of his sons were alive.  Moreover, even if he was willing, Cat would indeed be vehemently against (and likely even Ned himself), since a Karstark marriage would indeed raise the legitimacy of Jon as a bastard threat to Robb.  But, that's because the Karstarks are pretty high on the nobility ladder.  The Pooles, OTOH, seem to be decidedly low.  So sure, I could maybe see a Jon/Jeyne match in terms of social status.  However, can't see Cat being too thrilled that he would then presumably stick around Winterfell as an adult AND have its steward as a father-in-law.  So, if Ned's alright with being celibate, I guess.

Thanks- yeah I'm just personally not sure how bastards are viewed by northmen we really only get Catelyn's opinion and Jon's own.  There are some famous Snows' with Brandon and now Ramsey, maybe I just personally think that Cat brought the bastard-bashing attitude and maybe the Karstarks would like having and "In" or even "hostage" with the ruling family if they had any political acumen.

Or maybe I just think too highly of Jon.  

I do think that the current series has clouded how normal familial relations are made.  It was normally more local (Tywin's wife was his cousin and so was one of Ned's grandparents.  It wouldn't be that weird, I don't think, for a vassal house to marry with a 50% Stark kid whether bastard or not)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 hours ago, dmc515 said:

no way Rickard would marry his only daughter to a bastard, even if all three of his sons were alive.

I agree. 

The real question however for me would had been, if Rickard was willing to marry his daughter to a bastard but also Ned's heir. What I mean is, if Ned had no trueborn children and Jon was Ned's only son and heir would Rickard had been willing to marry Alys with a legitimized bastard?

[Livesundersink]

7 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

Thanks- yeah I'm just personally not sure how bastards are viewed by northmen we really only get Catelyn's opinion and Jon's own.  There are some famous Snows' with Brandon and now Ramsey, maybe I just personally think that Cat brought the bastard-bashing attitude and maybe the Karstarks would like having and "In" or even "hostage" with the ruling family if they had any political acumen.

Or maybe I just think too highly of Jon.  

I do think that the current series has clouded how normal familial relations are made.  It was normally more local (Tywin's wife was his cousin and so was one of Ned's grandparents.  It wouldn't be that weird, I don't think, for a vassal house to marry with a 50% Stark kid whether bastard or not)

Not quite, Ned's parents were cousins not his grandparents.

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

So a few caveats to this hypothetical situation.  Did Robert win the throne? Did Brandon kill Littlefinger?  Did Jon Arryn not die? Did Ned stay up north and didn't take the handship?  All are questions that need to be answered.  If Ned were alive and Jon Arryn the current hand Jon probably marries for love and is hidden in some castle or holdfast by Ned as he is always a threat to Roberts legitimacy.  If Ned dies and the secret dies with him, then Robb would marry him to a noble lady in the riverlands or a distant area to consolidate his power with someone he trust.  In this scenario I could see a marriage to Asha or a riverlands/vale noble lady because bastard or no if Jon doesn't go to the wall he would have been Robb's 2nd in command.

[Clegane'sPup]

11 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

I don't generally love these hypothetical questions but I'm asking this mainly to get a poll of how people view certain social statuses both in Westeros and the North. Stay with me:

If all had gone "normally" in life would Jon Snow have been an adequate consort to either Jeyne Poole or Alys Karstark? With Alys he could potentially be lord of Karhold and with Jeyne maybe the Steward/Castellan-in-waiting at ole Winterfell.  Maybe Alys is more likely simply because Cat would want him eventually out of Winterfell but at the same time that makes him a Lord of a major house and "bastard threat to Robb".  Or simply was he destined to be a virgin bastard member of the Night's Watch? Or do you have other ideas, maybe  marry a lady of Bear Island(Grandpa Mormont loved him)?

This kinda interesting to ponder on. Cat went so far as to think that Jon’s offspring could pose a risk to the trueborn Stark’s.

 

GoT c. 6  Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Jon even wonders about his place in the scheme of things. GoT c.5   Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

 

I would think that when Jon came of age Cat would want him out of WF. She’s seems eager to get him out of her sight and she thinks Jon looks more like Eddard than her own boys do.

Would Eddard simply give Jon a bag of coin and send him on his way? I guess Eddard could send Jon to the Citadel to become a master. There’s no guarantee Jon would stay there though.

As to marriage prospects Eddard, could probably find a suitable girl in one of the numerous northern mountain clans and set Jon up in a small keep near one of the villages.

Another thing your post has me pondering is how and when was Eddard going to reveal Jon’s parentage? The story Martin wrote is different than a hypothetical what if. One day winter will come and when it does I will dream of spring. I would settle for a new novella about Dunk, WF or BR.

[Wrl6199]

19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This kinda interesting to ponder on. Cat went so far as to think that Jon’s offspring could pose a risk to the trueborn Stark’s.

 

 

GoT c. 6  Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Jon even wonders about his place in the scheme of things. GoT c.5   Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

 

 

I would think that when Jon came of age Cat would want him out of WF. She’s seems eager to get him out of her sight and she thinks Jon looks more like Eddard than her own boys do.

Would Eddard simply give Jon a bag of coin and send him on his way? I guess Eddard could send Jon to the Citadel to become a master. There’s no guarantee Jon would stay there though.

As to marriage prospects Eddard, could probably find a suitable girl in one of the numerous northern mountain clans and set Jon up in a small keep near one of the villages.

Another thing your post has me pondering is how and when was Eddard going to reveal Jon’s parentage? The story Martin wrote is different than a hypothetical what if. One day winter will come and when it does I will dream of spring. I would settle for a new novella about Dunk, WF or BR.

Yeah i dint really know what would happen to Jon if he dint join the nights watch. He would've never gotten the same amount of fame tats for sure.

[Philokles]

He would probably have been one of those chosen to settle the Gift when the NW re-ceded it to the Starks and then married a daughter of a minor Northern house to create his own minor house.

[Wrl6199]

19 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

He would probably have been one of those chosen to settle the Gift when the NW re-ceded it to the Starks and then married a daughter of a minor Northern house to create his own minor house.

He would create house snow. But one thing that i have wondered about is why Ned dint legitimize him when he was younger. I mean it would infuriate Catelyn but he still cared about him.

[The Wolves]

I'm probably in the minority but I don't think Jon would have stayed in Winterfell or the North if he had a choice. 

Jon is way to ambitious and wants to make a name from himself away from Robb and the Starks IMO. I don't know what Jon would have done but he wasn't going to stay around and be second fiddle to Robb or anyone else. I also don't think he would have gotten married. 

[Maxxine]

Of the two options mentioned I think it's more likely he would've married Jeyne Poole & stayed at WF as castellan or otherwise. Yeah Cat would not have like it but Robb trusts Jon and would've wanted him close. Plus Robb seems to have shown that's he not a fan of the way Cat treated Jon so I don't think her feelings about that particular issue would stop Robb from keeping Jon around. As others have said the Karstarks pre-series wouldn't have allowed a bastard to marry Alys. Barring an Orys Baratheon situation I don't see it.

 

[DMC]

17 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

Thanks- yeah I'm just personally not sure how bastards are viewed by northmen we really only get Catelyn's opinion and Jon's own.  There are some famous Snows' with Brandon and now Ramsey, maybe I just personally think that Cat brought the bastard-bashing attitude and maybe the Karstarks would like having and "In" or even "hostage" with the ruling family if they had any political acumen.

Well, I'm no fan of Cat as a character (or her treatment of Jon as a person), but her concern about Jon potentially being a threat to her own children - and even her wanting Jon out of Winterfell - is an entirely valid and prudent perspective.  Also, I don't really see how Jon would be a hostage in a hypothetical marriage with Alys.  If anything, they would hope he'd be legitimized, which brings me to...

11 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The real question however for me would had been, if Rickard was willing to marry his daughter to a bastard but also Ned's heir. What I mean is, if Ned had no trueborn children and Jon was Ned's only son and heir would Rickard had been willing to marry Alys with a legitimized bastard?

Yeah, it seems like, with the exception of Dorne, the Northern nobility has the least inherent reticence towards bastards (e.g. Larence Snow).  If Jon is the heir to Winterfell, I think any vassal would be happy to marry their daughter to him.  Unless, of course, they have family with a close competing claim...

5 hours ago, Wrl6199 said:

But one thing that i have wondered about is why Ned dint legitimize him when he was younger. I mean it would infuriate Catelyn but he still cared about him.

As we know, only a king can legitimize a bastard.  And Ned asking Robert to legitimize Jon would likely raise...complications.  If Jon was actually Ned's son, though, I could definitely seeing Ned wanting to.  However, again, Cat would be vehemently against it, and with good reason.

[Wrl6199]

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Well, I'm no fan of Cat as a character (or her treatment of Jon as a person), but her concern about Jon potentially being a threat to her own children - and even her wanting Jon out of Winterfell - is an entirely valid and prudent perspective.  Also, I don't really see how Jon would be a hostage in a hypothetical marriage with Alys.  If anything, they would hope he'd be legitimized, which brings me to...

Yeah, it seems like, with the exception of Dorne, the Northern nobility has the least inherent reticence towards bastards (e.g. Larence Snow).  If Jon is the heir to Winterfell, I think any vassal would be happy to marry their daughter to him.  Unless, of course, they have family with a close competing claim...

As we know, only a king can legitimize a bastard.  And Ned asking Robert to legitimize Jon would likely raise...complications.  If Jon was actually Ned's son, though, I could definitely seeing Ned wanting to.  However, again, Cat would be vehemently against it, and with good reason.

Oh i dint know that only a king could legitimize bastards. But yeah i could see Robert doing that for him though, but as you said cat would hate him.

[Curled Finger]

As I was reading through the initial posts I was wondering to myself well what about going South and becoming a knight or going to White Harbor and learning to sail?   Truth is, the deck was stacked against Jon in particular because Ned was so protective of him.  In all honesty I think Jon would have wanted to join the Night's Watch anyway--for the honor of the Watch and Starks.  I doubt Ned would have ever asked Robert to legitimize Jon.    Ned tried very hard to keep Jon close and out of sight.   Remember, Ned is about the only person alive who knows how dangerous the truth about Jon's parents could be to the crown.  Jon was very loyal to Robb, but I still think he would have taken the black regardless any of the circumstances and Ned would have gone along with it to keep Jon safe.   I think it would have played out this way even if Cat liked Jon.  For all we know Ned was waiting every day to see if Jon's eyes or hair changed color.  And the NW is a great honor and duty to the Starks.   

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

In all honesty I think Jon would have wanted to join the Night's Watch anyway--for the honor of the Watch and Starks.

Of course Jon would have wanted to join the NW anyway.  That's canon.  But to paraphrase the great Eli Cash of the Royal Tenenbaums - what this thread presupposes is...what if he didn't?

[shameeka]

14 hours ago, Wrl6199 said:

He would create house snow. But one thing that i have wondered about is why Ned dint legitimize him when he was younger. I mean it would infuriate Catelyn but he still cared about him.

Ned would upset not only Cat but House Tully as well. It's possible that the Tullys think that Ned is 'dishonoring' Catelyn by legitimizing Jon. IMO legitimizing a bastard while one's trueborn children are still living could cause unwelcome controversies and suspicions.

[The Wolves]

5 hours ago, shameeka said:

Ned would upset not only Cat but House Tully as well. It's possible that the Tullys think that Ned is 'dishonoring' Catelyn by legitimizing Jon. IMO legitimizing a bastard while one's trueborn children are still living could cause unwelcome controversies and suspicions.

Honestly what could the Tullys do about it? 

[shameeka]

21 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Honestly what could the Tullys do about it? 

They could send some angry letters to Ned by raven. They could petition the king to not legitimize Jon(although I find that unlikely). They could just grumble but not do anything about it. Still, offending one of the great houses is not a small thing.

[The Wolves]

36 minutes ago, shameeka said:

They could send some angry letters to Ned by raven. They could petition the king to not legitimize Jon(although I find that unlikely). They could just grumble but not do anything about it. Still, offending one of the great houses is not a small thing.

So what if Ned offended them. They don't have any say on what happens in the North.