Did Renly have any opinion of Davos?

[Oakhearts head]

This is just something I have been thinking about for awhile and would like your thoughts. I assume some will be of the opinion that Renly Baratheon, being that he often seems superficial and pretentious on the surface, wouldn't think twice about a lowborn smuggler. I would like to think Renly is deserving of a little more credit than that. As arrogant as he can be, Renly should be appreciative of Davos Seaworth essentially saving his life as a child. Not to mention, Stannis knighted Davos for his actions during the Siege of Storm's End. Don't you think Renly would have some understanding or at least be curious as to why his brother holds Davos' opinion in such high regard? We don't have any way of knowing for sure, as Renly obviously wasn't a POV character and Davos hasn't recalled any interaction the two may have had. Still, I think it's an interesting question.

Something that caught my attention in Clash is this monologue from Renly:

Quote

“When my brother falls, see that no insult is done to his corpse. He is my own blood, I will not have his head paraded about on a spear.”
“And if he yields?” Lord Tarly asked.
“Yields?” Lord Rowan laughed. “When Mace Tyrell laid siege to Storm’s End, Stannis ate rats rather than open his gates.”
“Well I remember.” Renly lifted his chin to allow Brienne to fasten his gorget in place. “Near the end, Ser Gawen Wylde and three of his knights tried to steal out a postern gate to surrender. Stannis caught them and ordered them flung from the walls with catapults. I can still see Gawen’s face as they strapped him down. He had been our master-at-arms.”
Lord Rowan appeared puzzled. “No men were hurled from the walls. I would surely remember that.”
“Maester Cressen told Stannis that we might be forced to eat our dead, and there was no gain in flinging away good meat.” Renly pushed back his hair. Brienne bound it with a velvet tie and pulled a padded cap down over his ears, to cushion the weight of his helm. “Thanks to the Onion Knight we were never reduced to dining on corpses, but it was a close thing. Too close for Ser Gawen, who died in his cell.”

–A Clash of Kings, Catelyn IV

This conversation during Renly's war council struck me as quite of out of place. It's really surprising to me that someone as concerned about appearances as Renly is, was openly reminiscing about Davos saving the remaining garrison of Storm's End in the middle of a war council with his most powerful and influential lords and knights. While I think Renly was an underrated player in the game of thrones, he really does come across as a boy playing at war in this scene, even referring to Davos as the "the Onion Knight" in the same way children in Westeros think of folk heroes like Bran the Builder or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. It seems very clear that Renly did actually view Davos and his brother Stannis as heroes for their actions during the Rebellion. 

Now, I'm doubtful that Renly would ever openly endorse someone who is viewed essentially as an upjumped smuggler in front of various lords of the Reach and Stormlands, but do you think he had any form of genuine appreciation or respect for Davos? 

[James Steller]

He probably had gratitude and respect for Davos, but not enough that the Onion Knight would be spared from harm if it came to battle. 

[estermonty python]

10 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

This conversation during Renly's war council struck me as quite of out of place. It's really surprising to me that someone as concerned about appearances as Renly is, was openly reminiscing about Davos saving the remaining garrison of Storm's End in the middle of a war council with his most powerful and influential lords and knights. While I think Renly was an underrated player in the game of thrones, he really does come across as a boy playing at war in this scene, even referring to Davos as the "the Onion Knight" in the same way children in Westeros think of folk heroes like Bran the Builder or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. It seems very clear that Renly did actually view Davos and his brother Stannis as heroes for their actions during the Rebellion. 

Now, I'm doubtful that Renly would ever openly endorse someone who is viewed essentially as an upjumped smuggler in front of various lords of the Reach and Stormlands, but do you think he had any form of genuine appreciation or respect for Davos? 

I'm not sure why you find this conversation out of place.  Renly is a lot more things than just "concerned about appearances" - after all, the female member of his Rainbow Guard is dressing him while he talks.  That's pretty scandalous.  The Onion Knight is Davos's moniker, so I don't know what else Renly is supposed to call him.  It's no different from The Hound, or The Mountain, or Littlefinger, or The Spider, or whatever.  

I think you may be somewhat off in your presumption that Davos is an embarrassment to those Lords he associates with.  Most of that is due to the fact that almost the only time we see Davos is through his own POV, which is colored by his own deep insecurities about his low birth.  It's true that Axell Florent treats him like dirt, but that has more to do with Axell Florent being an insufferable jackass than any sort of referrendum on Davos's perception among the lords and ladies of Westeros.  The only two other POVs we get that refer to Davos, if I'm remembering correctly, are Cressen and Melisandre, neither of whom seem to view him with anything approaching disdain.  

People like a good underdog story, and The Onion Knight is a fun story.  These high lords are still above Davos in station, so they'd have no reason to be resentful.  The only men with reason to be resentful are those who are placed under Davos when he is made Hand of the King - otherwise, why would anyone else care? 

[Oakhearts head]

On 11/11/2016 at 3:32 AM, estermonty python said:

I'm not sure why you find this conversation out of place.  Renly is a lot more things than just "concerned about appearances" - after all, the female member of his Rainbow Guard is dressing him while he talks.  That's pretty scandalous.  The Onion Knight is Davos's moniker, so I don't know what else Renly is supposed to call him.  It's no different from The Hound, or The Mountain, or Littlefinger, or The Spider, or whatever.

Fair point about Brienne. I just thought it was a strange time for Renly to be reminiscing on Stannis and Davos saving his life during the siege of Storm's End while in the middle of a war council with his most noteworthy and influential commanders in attendance. My overall impression of the scene was that Renly was basically looking back on that time period through the lens of his childhood.

On 11/11/2016 at 3:32 AM, estermonty python said:

I think you may be somewhat off in your presumption that Davos is an embarrassment to those Lords he associates with.  Most of that is due to the fact that almost the only time we see Davos is through his own POV, which is colored by his own deep insecurities about his low birth.  It's true that Axell Florent treats him like dirt, but that has more to do with Axell Florent being an insufferable jackass than any sort of referrendum on Davos's perception among the lords and ladies of Westeros.  The only two other POVs we get that refer to Davos, if I'm remembering correctly, are Cressen and Melisandre, neither of whom seem to view him with anything approaching disdain.  

People like a good underdog story, and The Onion Knight is a fun story.  These high lords are still above Davos in station, so they'd have no reason to be resentful.  The only men with reason to be resentful are those who are placed under Davos when he is made Hand of the King - otherwise, why would anyone else care? 

You're right there. Davos' insecurity in regards to his birth makes him an unreliable narrator at times, similar to Theon and his identity crisis in Clash. Theon's run-ins with his father and sister upon returning to Pyke convince him that he truly is an outsider to the Ironborn. We later learn Asha and Balon had their own motivations and that Theon actually did have a lot of support and backing on the Iron Islands. Just as Asha and Balon inflamed Theon's insecurities, Axel and Selyse Florent did the same for Davos.

I must say though, I don't know if Melisandre and Cressan are good examples to use. Cressan is a maester sworn to serve, while Mel lived the majority of her life in Essos and is probably rather indifferent to Westerosi social status quo. Not to mention her own time spent as a slave likely made her sympathetic to Davos' low birth.

With that said, do you believe Renly cared either way for Davos?

[Lord Lannister]

I seem to recall Renly making a snide remark about onion knights during their parley as a jab at the quality of Stannis' men.

[The Drunkard]

Don't you think Renly would have some understanding or at least be curious as to why his brother holds Davos' opinion in such high regard?

I don't get the impression Renly is being especially grateful to Davos in that passage, but if he was I doubt he'd see the reason. Stannis keeps Davos around because he's unfailingly loyal, honest and smart, rather than for his heroics at Storm's End, and no one seems to pick up on his value other than perhaps Cressen and Melisandre. Most lords view it as an absurdity (e.g Kevan speaks of him as if he were a pet) and I imagine Renly would feel the same if he thought about Davos at all.

[Isobel Harper]

25 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I seem to recall Renly making a snide remark about onion knights during their parley as a jab at the quality of Stannis' men.

Is this the passage? 

"Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king. All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power. My foot is coming behind, a hundred thousand swords and spears and pikes. And you will destroy me? With what, pray? That paltry rabble I see there huddled under the castle walls? I'll call them five thousand and be generous, codfish lords and onion knights and sellswords. Half of them are like to come over to me before the battle starts. You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell me—freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won't survive the first charge of my vanguard."

Renly doesn't seem especially fond of Davos here, but not necessarily derisive either.  The "codfish" that Renly refers to is probably to House Velaryon and/or some other (older, esteemed) house that is supporting Stannis.  That is, Renly's jibe seems to be aimed at Stannis's supporters in general and not particularly at the "quality" or birth of his supporters, like Davos. 

[WSmith84]

Probably he had some gratitude to Davos, but I bet he mostly didn't think about him. If Davos had survived the battle, Renly probably would have let him go back to his keep with his (surviving) sons, after an oath of fealty, of course. I think his gratitude would have extended that far.

[Dolorous22]

Animosity is not a prerequisite for war. I think Renly respected both Davos and his older brother. But without the foresight to see shadow assassins on the horizon it's easy to see why Renly thought Stannis had lost his mind. Killing him and his onion knight was nothing more than a painful formality which would ensure victory. 

Renly know's these men well and respected them for who they were. Stannis would fight to the bitter end and Davos would be his beloved and devout Onion Knight. Renly had to accept that these men would die, and so too would a lot of other good and loyal men. 

As for Davos specifically - any gratitude he may of felt toward the Onion Knight would of vanished once Stannis was resolved to fight. Davos wouldn't betray his king. 

 

[Lord Lannister]

14 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Is this the passage? 

"Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king. All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power. My foot is coming behind, a hundred thousand swords and spears and pikes. And you will destroy me? With what, pray? That paltry rabble I see there huddled under the castle walls? I'll call them five thousand and be generous, codfish lords and onion knights and sellswords. Half of them are like to come over to me before the battle starts. You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell me—freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won't survive the first charge of my vanguard."

Renly doesn't seem especially fond of Davos here, but not necessarily derisive either.  The "codfish" that Renly refers to is probably to House Velaryon and/or some other (older, esteemed) house that is supporting Stannis.  That is, Renly's jibe seems to be aimed at Stannis's supporters in general and not particularly at the "quality" or birth of his supporters, like Davos. 

Yeah, that's the one I was talking about. When I said quality, I was referring to Renly's estimation of their combat effectiveness vs that of his own troops. Beyond that I don't think Renly much concerned himself with his brother's man.

[devilish]

22 hours ago, Dolorous22 said:

Animosity is not a prerequisite for war. I think Renly respected both Davos and his older brother. But without the foresight to see shadow assassins on the horizon it's easy to see why Renly thought Stannis had lost his mind. Killing him and his onion knight was nothing more than a painful formality which would ensure victory. 

Renly know's these men well and respected them for who they were. Stannis would fight to the bitter end and Davos would be his beloved and devout Onion Knight. Renly had to accept that these men would die, and so too would a lot of other good and loyal men. 

As for Davos specifically - any gratitude he may of felt toward the Onion Knight would of vanished once Stannis was resolved to fight. Davos wouldn't betray his king. 

 

Unlike Stannis or Joffrey, Renly has no claim to the throne. His argument is pretty simple

a-    There’s question marks about Joffrey’s legitimacy which makes his rule unattainable + the boy had caused a civil war by cutting a war hero’s head who happen to be married to a Tully (and whose wife is married to an Arryn)
b-    Stannis is a zealot who never bothered to be friendly with his prospective subjects. The guy didn’t even care keeping the religion most of Westeros believe in.  

The former attracts the hatred of three possibly four houses (Martells, Starks, Tully and Arryn). The latter attracts the antipathy of most Westeros and his rule may pave the way to a series of Faith militant uprisings. 
Renly is pushing his claim by portraying himself as the proven statesman who will, on one hand bring justice to Westeros and on the other hand unify to Westeros

Under such circumstances I doubt he’ll behead his brother or the onion knight if he can help it (ie by convincing a defeated Stannis to bend the knee). Stannis is more than just Renly’s brother. He’s a seasoned general (something Renly is not), who happens to be his heir (if Renly beats him on the battlefield).  Same thing can be said about Davos whose experience at sea is well regarded in the Stormlands. Having them around would mean being less reliant on Randyll advice + it would bring the message that Renly can forgive his foes IF they bend the knee (a sort of King Robert – the booze).  

 

[estermonty python]

On 11/13/2016 at 2:06 AM, Isobel Harper said:

Renly doesn't seem especially fond of Davos here, but not necessarily derisive either.  The "codfish" that Renly refers to is probably to House Velaryon and/or some other (older, esteemed) house that is supporting Stannis.  That is, Renly's jibe seems to be aimed at Stannis's supporters in general and not particularly at the "quality" or birth of his supporters, like Davos. 

That's an interesting passage.  He's obviously not referring to House Codd directly, but they're the only House with a codfish in their sigil.  Because House Codd is mainly known for being despised by everyone, I wonder if "codfish lord" is a Westerosi shorthand, derrogatory term for lords that no one likes or respects.  That seems more likely than a reference to House Bar Emmon (swordfish) or House Bywater (silverfish).

On 11/12/2016 at 6:04 PM, Oakhearts head said:

I must say though, I don't know if Melisandre and Cressan are good examples to use. Cressan is a maester sworn to serve, while Mel lived the majority of her life in Essos and is probably rather indifferent to Westerosi social status quo. Not to mention her own time spent as a slave likely made her sympathetic to Davos' low birth.

With that said, do you believe Renly cared either way for Davos?

I just don't think there are any other examples we have - I don't think we've seen Davos from any other POV yet.  

It is surprisingly difficult to get into the minds of the major non-POV characters.  They are clearly just as complex as the POVs - the many sphinxlike layers of Tywin and Stannis as proof enough of that - but I think Renly's most prominent quality is his general inability to take anyone or anything seriously.  This is all a game to him - he was a touch too young to have really experienced the horror of Robert's Rebellion, so he doesn't seem to appreciate the gravity of what he's involved with.  Maybe there's more to him than that, but he seems like a superficial charmer that is brilliant at winning friends and allies through his congenial nature but fails to attend to the hard business of war and ruling - Cat observes as much when she goes to meet with him just prior to the peach scene.  Given that general characterization, I'd say that Renly probably doesn't take Davos particularly seriously, because he doesn't take much particularly seriously.  Davos is beneath his consideration.  I like what another commenter said about Kevan's regard for him - he's like a pet, and I think that's rather apt.  As the Hound was to Joffrey, so is the Onion Knight to Stannis.  Which is fine - everyone likes to have a loyal man by their side.