Shiera's fate

[chrisdaw]

Shiera is not some misfortunate victim, she purposely played Bloodraven off against Bittersteel because inspiring jealousy gave her pleasure. No other character in history had men fighting for the right to sit beside her, that it just happened around her without her spurring it on, given what we know of her interactions with Bloodraven, is flatly naïve.

Her fate is a spoiler, or we'd know it. It's a question of if it's a spoiler for the series or Dunk and Egg.

I'd be surprised if she doesn't show in the main series as Euron's guiding hand, steering him to cause maximum chaos simply because she revels in it. Euron knows too much so he must be getting his information from somewhere, at sea sailors are guided by stars.

[Yukle]

My strong suspicion is that she'll be in more D&E but otherwise is of no consequence. It took Bloodraven powerful magic to extend his lifespan even only a comparatively short time over what it would have been naturally. Shiera is slightly younger than him but must be about 120 or thereabouts by the novels' storyline.

[Shuvuuia]

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Shiera is not some misfortunate victim, she purposely played Bloodraven off against Bittersteel because inspiring jealousy gave her pleasure. No other character in history had men fighting for the right to sit beside her, that it just happened around her without her spurring it on, given what we know of her interactions with Bloodraven, is flatly naïve.

Where is the quote that she purposely played Bloodraven off against Bittersteel? She is said to choose Bloodraven (plus she would be what, in her late teens if not younger, during the first Blackfyre Rebellion? they are the creeps). and yes, it is rumoured that it amused her to make Bloodraven jealous (likely happened later). That doesn't mean she has some super-sinister-magical powers. Real world people do things like that. And fighting to sit beside her - sorry, but i totally see westerosi men doing just that. Again, no super-powers needed.

And, those are rumours. Until we meet her or hear about their relationship from Bloodraven, they could easily be half-truths.

I actually think that she likely was interested in magic and maybe used glamour (or maybe not. she is in her 30s during D&E, Cat and Cersei are described as beautiful without any glamour), but bathing in blood and manipulating everything i'm 100% sure are rumours.

That's just grrm's style - to introduce a rumour or "known fact" (like wildlings are all bloodthirsty savages, Dornish are all liars, evil Hound wants to kill his brother for nothing, Rohanne Webber is a witch) and then show that those are not exactly truth or not truth at all.

 

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Her fate is a spoiler, or we'd know it. It's a question of if it's a spoiler for the series or Dunk and Egg.

I'd be surprised if she doesn't show in the main series as Euron's guiding hand, steering him to cause maximum chaos simply because she revels in it. Euron knows too much so he must be getting his information from somewhere, at sea sailors are guided by stars.

Why? (no spolilers for the winds chapters, please),is there any connection between them? 

[chrisdaw]

20 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

Where is the quote that she purposely played Bloodraven off against Bittersteel?

It's in an SSM, a description he gave an artist.

[Shuvuuia]

11 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

It's in an SSM, a description he gave an artist.

i've found only this one:

Quote

Though she never wed, she had many offers, and several lovers through the years. Duels were fought over the right to sit beside her, men killed themselves after falling from her favor, poets outdid each other writing songs about her beauty. Her most ardent admirer was her half-brother, Bloodraven, who proposed marriage to her half a hundred times. Shiera gave him her bed, but never her hand. It amused her more to make him jealous.

it is not about Bloodraven vs Bittersteel, and even if she played them against each other, it's not like she needed any supernatural powers to do it. And, again, her age - wiki calculates between 178 and 184, meaning she was between 18 and 12 years old during the 1st rebellion (probably somewhat in between), her playing them off against each other could be a matter of survival.

[Quellon]

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Shiera is not some misfortunate victim, she purposely played Bloodraven off against Bittersteel because inspiring jealousy gave her pleasure. No other character in history had men fighting for the right to sit beside her, that it just happened around her without her spurring it on, given what we know of her interactions with Bloodraven, is flatly naïve.

Her fate is a spoiler, or we'd know it. It's a question of if it's a spoiler for the series or Dunk and Egg.

I'd be surprised if she doesn't show in the main series as Euron's guiding hand, steering him to cause maximum chaos simply because she revels in it. Euron knows too much so he must be getting his information from somewhere, at sea sailors are guided by stars.

I do agree, she seems more than just a little wicked. And the very fact that she chose Brynden rather than Aegor...seems to indicate she was into the darker guys. Even tho Aegor's anger made him a dark person also, but no in the same way as Brynden was.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The support for Shiera Seastar being Quaithe comes from two quotes, this...

Quote

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shinybehind the implacable red lacquer mask.

Daenerys III, Clash 40

And this...

Quote

“You’ve known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?”

“Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven’s paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty."

The Sworn Sword

[Shuvuuia]

1 hour ago, Quellon said:

I do agree, she seems more than just a little wicked. And the very fact that she chose Brynden rather than Aegor...seems to indicate she was into the darker guys. Even tho Aegor's anger made him a dark person also, but no in the same way as Brynden was.

Or Brynden was closer to her age and shared similar interests in books and magic...remember, he was fairly young during the first Rebellion, and they've met even younger, so he didn't yet get his reputation back then.

This doesn't mean she is some pure innocent person who've never done anything bad, but there us nothing to support the sinister bringer of doom who would join Euron. 

8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The support for Shiera Seastar being Quaithe comes from two quotes, this...

Daenerys III, Clash 40

And this...

The Sworn Sword

i don't really understand the connection? (i'm not that opposed to Shiera=Quaithe, btw) One is about Quaithe's eyes and the other is about bathing? I'd say it actually contradicts Shiera=something magical, since in Egg's quote she is connected with Rohanne, who, as we discover is a very down-to-earth political character.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

That's a nice question to ask GRRM in conventions and such events. At worst, he'll answer "keep reading" and we'll know if there's something interesting.

[chrisdaw]

8 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

i've found only this one:

it is not about Bloodraven vs Bittersteel, and even if she played them against each other, it's not like she needed any supernatural powers to do it. And, again, her age - wiki calculates between 178 and 184, meaning she was between 18 and 12 years old during the 1st rebellion (probably somewhat in between), her playing them off against each other could be a matter of survival.

And that quote says she enjoyed making Bloodraven jealous. Not a rumour, not some outsider's take on it, she did this, she enjoyed stoking his jealousy. Bloodraven's and Bittersteel's feud is credited as a driving force behind the Blackfyre rebellion and Shiera as a cause of their feud.

 The whole passage is about men contesting for her. Given what we know were her actions, that it all just happened around her without encouragement is as I said, flatly naïve. And then we get lines like this.

Quote

Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled.

 

[Shuvuuia]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

And that quote says she enjoyed making Bloodraven jealous. Not a rumour, not some outsider's take on it, she did this, she enjoyed stoking his jealousy. 

First, we don't know what does it mean exactly - did she enjoy other's suffering or was he pestering her with marrying him so much, that it was her revenge, for example? Was it her way to maintain her position at court? Bloodraven himself says "woman he desired", not loved. So maybe she was pissed at him and all those men who only wanted her for her body, and that's why she thought it was ok to tease them. We don't know

And I've already said, Shiera doesn't need to be an innocent pure person, but her having vices doesn't mean she is EVUUL on Euron's level or that she has special life-prolonging powers. That's not grrm's style. 

Quote

 The whole passage is about men contesting for her. Given what we know were her actions, that it all just happened around her without encouragement is as I said, flatly naïve.

 

So? She likes when men court her and crave her attention, what is bad with that? We don't know if she enjoyed when they killed each other, it could've deeply distressed her. Why is it her fault if some horny stupid boys decide to fight a duel.

Quote

And then we get lines like this.

Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled.

1) the line is said by a guy who also thinks all Egg's children married for love.

2) The Blackfyres rebellions started because of the Aegon IV's actions. And as Bittersteels vs Bloodraven, that is rooted in their houses rivalry and different treatments their mothers received. If there was no Shiera, the rebellion would've started anyway.

3) blaming Shiera for the rebellions is same as blaming the first Danaerys. or Jenny of the Oldstones, imo (again she is between 12 and 18 years old), only it is easier because she has all those slut-shaming rumours attached to her.

But even Barristan in this quote puts blame not on Shiera or other women but on the love in itself.

Grrm's already deconstructed the evil seductress trope with Melisandre (despite the fact that good part the fandom doesn't seem to grasp it), so why would he play it straight with Shiera.

 

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

First, we don't know what does it mean exactly - did she enjoy other's suffering or was he pestering her with marrying him so much, that it was her revenge, for example? Was it her way to maintain her position at court? Bloodraven himself says "woman he desired", not loved. So maybe she was pissed at him and all those men who only wanted her for her body, and that's why she thought it was ok to tease them. We don't know.

Grrm's already deconstructed the evil seductress trope with Melisandre (despite the fact that good part the fandom doesn't seem to grasp it), so why would he play it straight with Shiera.

We do know she took pleasure in making her lover Bloodraven jealous and acted for the purpose of causing that jealousy, we know that because that's what GRRM wrote. A detail that he wanted an artist to know so that they may depict her accurately, it's basically her only established personality trait.

Why would GRRM portray a variety of characters and situations? Gee, I don't know.

[Shuvuuia]

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

We do know she took pleasure in making her lover Bloodraven jealous and acted for the purpose of causing that jealousy, we know that because that's what GRRM wrote. A detail that he wanted an artist to know so that they may depict her accurately, it's basically her only established personality trait.

we also now know she was an avid reader.

and ok, lets assume that she liked to make him jealous just for giggles - how does that mean she is related to the main plot of the series and to Euron? There is nothing pointing to that. Red Ronnet Connington is a massive jerk, that doesn't mean he will be siding with the Others. 

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Why would GRRM portray a variety of characters and situations? Gee, I don't know.

There is a difference between variety of characters and deconstructing a trope to return to one-dimensional old stereotypes. and, don't get me wrong, sometimes he does fall for one-dimensional and stereotyped tropes, but IF we meet Shiera, that would be in D&E, and i just can't see what you're are describing fitting into that narrative. Bloodraven is described by people (and Egg) as an evil magician, but when we meet him he is more than that. Rohanne is described as a black-widow witch, but when we meet her she is different. Now, Egg describes Shiera as a sorceress, bathing in blood - which probably means when we meet her that's not the whole story (and bathing in blood makes no sence anyway, it's like Ned Dayne's story about Ned loving Ashara but sleeping with Wylla).

 

[Yukle]

Having read through the comments suggesting that she is Quaithe, there's still the matter of Dany not noticing that her eyes are mismatched. It was Shiera's most famous feature and the eyes are all that Dany can see of Quaithe's appearance. Failure to notice anything unusual about the only feature she can discern suggests there's nothing unusual about Quaithe's eyes.

This is also why I disagree with the assertion that Quaithe is Dany from the future - Dany would have noticed violet eyes, as they're like hers.

Shiera has died from old age. Brynden's arrest and exile would have been the end of her romantic relationship. Unlike others in this thread, I do think that she and Brynden (somewhat creepily, given their shared father) did love each other. Brynden's power, money and station all went with him once he took the Black, so while Shiera was probably not left destitute, it would have been a huge blow to her life.

Given that, it's hard to see her wanting to live beyond her natural lifespan, even if she could. Aemon has shown that over 100 is not out of the realms of possibility for common folk but even that age would mean Shiera died about 20-25 years before the beginning of aGoT.

[chrisdaw]

14 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

and ok, lets assume that she liked to make him jealous just for giggles

It's not an assumption, it is literally what an author wrote about a character he created. It's not a case of choose your own option.

[Lord Varys]

Considering that the casual reader only reading the books wouldn't make (nor care) about the Brynden/three-eyed crow-Bloodraven connection, there is no reason not to believe Shiera is going to show up in some fashion.

There was no reason to invent that woman in the first place if she or her legacy isn't going to be important. And it is not likely to going to affect only the Dunk & Egg stories. Shiera lives at court and Dunk & Egg are not likely to spend much time there in the foreseeable future.

[Shuvuuia]

15 hours ago, Yukle said:

Having read through the comments suggesting that she is Quaithe, there's still the matter of Dany not noticing that her eyes are mismatched. It was Shiera's most famous feature and the eyes are all that Dany can see of Quaithe's appearance. Failure to notice anything unusual about the only feature she can discern suggests there's nothing unusual about Quaithe's eyes.

This is also why I disagree with the assertion that Quaithe is Dany from the future - Dany would have noticed violet eyes, as they're like hers.

 

playing the devil's advocate - I guess, depending on how her mask is made, it could obscure the colour of her eyes? like, making them look just dark, if the mask itself is very thick and eye openings are small. But then wouldn't it be mentioned that Dany is not able to tell the colour.

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It's not an assumption, it is literally what an author wrote about a character he created. It's not a case of choose your own option.

We have to agree to disagree there, because i think that that one line can imply different motivations and deeper character traits about which we won't know until we see her or hear about her from people who actually knew her in actual real books.

Plus it is an old semi-canon quote and grrm is a "gardener", so who knows what we see when we encounter the character in the actual books - for example, now we know Shiera supposedly was an avid reader, that isn't mentioned in that quote, despite the fact that imo, that one is the biggest hint that possibly connects her to the magical plot and prophesies.

But you haven't answered - how making Bloodraven jealous and enjoying tormenting him connects her to the main magical plot and Euron?

[Lost Melnibonean]

15 hours ago, Yukle said:

Having read through the comments suggesting that she is Quaithe, there's still the matter of Dany not noticing that her eyes are mismatched. It was Shiera's most famous feature and the eyes are all that Dany can see of Quaithe's appearance. Failure to notice anything unusual about the only feature she can discern suggests there's nothing unusual about Quaithe's eyes.

Shiera Sea + star's were too wet + shiny behind the mask for Daenerys to detect the color.

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that the casual reader only reading the books wouldn't make (nor care) about the Brynden/three-eyed crow-Bloodraven connection, there is no reason not to believe Shiera is going to show up in some fashion.

There was no reason to invent that woman in the first place if she or her legacy isn't going to be important. And it is not likely to going to affect only the Dunk & Egg stories. Shiera lives at court and Dunk & Egg are not likely to spend much time there in the foreseeable future.

Eggsactly. 

[Yukle]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There was no reason to invent that woman in the first place if she or her legacy isn't going to be important. And it is not likely to going to affect only the Dunk & Egg stories. Shiera lives at court and Dunk & Egg are not likely to spend much time there in the foreseeable future.

I hadn't thought of it like that, but I also can't see the purpose of utilising her character in the main story rather than Dunk and Egg. After all, to most readers it's of absolutely no consequence that Bloodraven is now a talking tree. Maybe Shiera will be important, but I really can't see why. In Brynden's case, his story has symmetry to it: he was born a bastard, raised to royalty, rose to be Hand of the King, acted as he saw fit to save the Realm but paid for it with all he had and then lived out his days destitute - cursed with not even being allowed death, but an eternal purgatory of suffering the visions of all of his family's errors.

Shiera, on the other hand, hasn't had a speaking role as yet. To reveal her would be the first time we've seen her, and therefore we're not going to have a particular emotional connection to her.