US Elections: Apocalypse Now

[Mr Fixit]

9 minutes ago, ummester said:

Left and right have never really had anything to do with social values until they started being misused in very recent times. Technically, Trump was more left than Clinton, as he was more anti establishment.

Trump is to the right of Clinton on social issues, but is some strange left-right hybrid on economic issues.

[Free Northman Reborn]

40 minutes ago, mormont said:

While we're at it, what was fundamentally wrong with the Berlin Wall concept?

Please explain the relevance of the comparison.

[Mr Fixit]

10 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And please tell me how Putin would never interfere in the Baltics States business or try to undermine those regimes. Why or why am I not buying this?

You don't have to buy it from me, my friend. The burden of proof is on you if you claim a positive. How is Russia illegally interfering in their business and undermining their regimes? I am not denying that relations are tense, cause of course they are these days. 

I am also unclear on why you are talking about Baltic countries leaving or not leaving NATO. Why should they leave if they don't want to? I only ask to drop the silly rhetoric about an impending invasion.

[Mexal]

55 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Can I ask, what is it that people find fundamentally wrong with the Mexican Wall concept? To those who oppose it, do you believe that people SHOULD be allowed to illegally cross into the USA from Mexico?

If yes, then why? Because you feel that national borders are unjust? If no, then are you instead in favor of some alternative method of keeping illegal migrants out?

It's expensive (~$25 billion). Impossible to build due to topography (they tried to build a fence in 2008, go see how that worked out). Americans will be forced to move (large swaths of land near the border can't be built on so it'll take it further into America where people actually live). It does not actually work to stop illegal immigration since most of that happens through overstaying their visas, not Mexicans crossing the border. That has dried up and more or less stopped. It was a big deal in the 80s but times have changed. And finally, it's symbolically the wrong message for a country built on immigration and openness. 

[ummester]

2 minutes ago, Mr Fixit said:

Trump is to the right of Clinton on social issues, but is some strange left-right hybrid on economic issues.

Yes, but as we discussed earlier, if the social issues are in part an establishment tool to divert attention from economic issues, then progressiveism itself becomes an establishment movement.

He's populace on economic issues - same as the Greek student party was. His protectionist economics support the popular vote.

[Tempra]

7 minutes ago, Fez said:

Trump does have the support of the anti-semitic groups in the US, and I think there's a real danger in them taking Trump's election as validation and there being a rise in anti-semitic incidents nationwide.

I don't think there will be any official or unofficial government activity that could be considered anti-semitic though. Beyond the fact that Trump has Jewish family members and plenty of Jewish friends; an awful lot of the names being floated around as staffers or cabinet heads are Jewish or are very close with Jewish organizations.

Its Muslims and Hispanics, and maybe African Americans, that are going to have to face harmful targeted polices.

It's a bit rich trying to lump the anti-semites in with Trump.  Our left leaning universities have been a breeding ground of anti-semitism in the US for decades, most recently with the unquestionably anti-semitic BDS movement.

[DanteGabriel]

Just now, Tempra said:

It's a bit rich trying to lump the anti-semites in with Trump.  Our left leaning universities have been a breeding ground of anti-semitism in the US for decades, most recently with the unquestionably anti-semitic BDS movement.

Criticisms of Netanyahu's government are not anti-Semitism.

[Mr Fixit]

4 minutes ago, Tempra said:

It's a bit rich trying to lump the anti-semites in with Trump.  Our left leaning universities have been a breeding ground of anti-semitism in the US for decades, most recently with the unquestionably anti-semitic BDS movement.

Why would BDS movement be inherently anti-semitic? Israel has after all been occupying foreign soil for 50 years and has instituted a horrific apartheid regime based on ethnic and religious discrimination, partial ethnic cleansing, and colonization of conquered territories in direct contravention of numerous treaties and international law. What's anti-semitic in pointing this out? In fact, I dare say that the Palestinian situation is one the most disgraceful failures of the civilized world today.

[Dr. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, Mexal said:

It's expensive (~$25 billion). Impossible to build due to topography (they tried to build a fence in 2008, go see how that worked out). Americans will be forced to move (large swaths of land near the border can't be built on so it'll take it further into America where people actually live). It does not actually work to stop illegal immigration since most of that happens through overstaying their visas, not Mexicans crossing the border. That has dried up and more or less stopped. It was a big deal in the 80s but times have changed. And finally, it's symbolically the wrong message for a country built on immigration and openness. 

I'd just want to add onto this that those fence building endeavors also forced people who do cross to do so in more dangerous and inhospitable areas resulting in a huge loss of life.  

[The guy from the Vale]

1 minute ago, Tempra said:

It's a bit rich trying to lump the anti-semites in with Trump.  Our left leaning universities have been a breeding ground of anti-semitism in the US for decades, most recently with the unquestionably anti-semitic BDS movement.

No, it's not. Not when Trump tweeted images that tied Hillary to "Jewish money" or released a campaign video that insinuated about an "international financial elite" while showing Soros, Blankfein and Yellen. Why not display Warren Buffet in there? Or Geithner? Or just any Banker/inestor who wasn't Jewish?

[ummester]

6 minutes ago, Mr Fixit said:

Why would BDS movement be inherently anti-semitic? Israel has after all been occupying foreign soil for 50 years and has instituted a horrific apartheid regime based on ethnic and religious discrimination and partial ethnic cleansing. What's anti-semitic in pointing this out?

I agree what is happening to the Palestinians is pretty cruel - but aren't Jewish people and Palestinians both Semites?

Re Russia, I think what happens with Syria will be the most interesting. If Trump and Putin unite to obliterate ISIS, then it will probably also come with an agreement that Assad can finish the pipeline to Russia. I don't think the Saudi's will like that and it would be an interesting time for the petro dollar.

[Mexal]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'd just want to add onto this that those fence building endeavors also forced people who do cross to do so in more dangerous and inhospitable areas resulting in a huge loss of life.  

It'll also keep people who do manage to cross in the country. People used to cross to make money for their families then cross back. Instead, it's forced them to stay and find a way to get their families to them which increases the number of people crossing. This is a mute point since crossing is a lot less these days but it was still a consequence of the fence and increased militarization of the border.

[Tempra]

8 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Criticisms of Netanyahu's government are not anti-Semitism.

Try reading up on the anti-semitic BDS movement before dismissing it as simply opposition to "Netanyahu's government."

BTW, must be hard for you to support the Patriots now knowing that their Dynasty has been led by a bunch of xenophobic, racist, misogynistic Trump supporters, eh?

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'd just want to add onto this that those fence building endeavors also forced people who do cross to do so in more dangerous and inhospitable areas resulting in a huge loss of life.  

I'm confused. If you intstall burglar bars on your ground floor windows, forcing a burglar to attempt a more dangerous entrance by climbing onto your roof, should you then feel bad if he falls and suffers a death or injury? Is the rational response to then remove your burglar bars?

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Indeed.  Oddly, I like nations to have the right to exist without having to have Russia, or the US's permission to exist.  It's an odd quirk.  

Agreed.  I very much doubt if I'll ever be threatened by Russian forces crossing the Channel or even the Oder.  I don't think Russia has any inclination to make such moves even if they had the capability.  But, it would still be a pity to see the independence of the Baltic States either brought to an end, or at least severely compromised.

[Dr. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, Mexal said:

It'll also keep people who do manage to cross in the country. People used to cross to make money for their families then cross back. Instead, it's forced them to stay and find a way to get their families to them which increases the number of people crossing. This is a mute point since crossing is a lot less these days but it was still a consequence of the fence and increased militarization of the border.

In hindsight, I'm now pretty pissed that neither Hillary nor her surrogates pointed out all these things about the wall.  To me, to you, and to millions of others it seemed blindingly obvious why the wall was a bad idea, dangerous, and made no sense as a way to tackle undocumented immigration but to other millions they thought it somehow made sense. 

[Mr Fixit]

Just now, SeanF said:

Agreed.  I very much doubt if I'll ever be threatened by Russian forces crossing the Channel or even the Oder.  I don't think Russia has any inclination to make such moves even if they had the capability.  But, it would still be a pity to see the independence of the Baltic States either brought to an end, or at least severely compromised.

Quite right.

[OldGimletEye]

4 minutes ago, Mr Fixit said:

You don't have to buy it from me, my friend. The burden of proof is on you if you claim a positive. How is Russia illegally interfering in their business and undermining their regimes? I am not denying that relations are tense, cause of course they are these days. 

Maybe he never does interfere. But that might be function of what kind of signal he gets from NATO. If NATO makes clear that interference is not acceptable and Putin believes that to be credible, then maybe he won't. On the other hand if Nato looks a little wishy washy on the matter, then maybe he will.

And by the way, I'm pretty sure Putin did interfere in the Ukraine. So, yeah, there are reason not to trust Putin.

8 minutes ago, Mr Fixit said:

 

I am also unclear on why you are talking about Baltic countries leaving or not leaving NATO. Why should they leave if they don't want to? I only ask to drop the silly rhetoric about an impending invasion.

I think I dropped the silly rhetoric about invasion a while ago. So, I'm not sure why your asking me to do this. I don't see Putin attempting to pull off an overt military invasion. But, that isn't the only play he can make.

As to the Baltic Stats leaving NATO: You made the claim of  "self serving interest". My point was how is it self serving if the Baltic states wish for a NATO and US presence.

Of course the Baltic states shouldn't have to leave NATO if they wish to stay in. That's their decision to make. And theirs alone. But, so long as they wish to be in NATO, then NATO and the US must be clear that they have their back.

[Dr. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm confused. If you intstall burglar bars on your ground floor windows, forcing a burglar to attempt a more dangerous entrance by climbing onto your roof, should you then feel bad if he falls and suffers a death or injury? Is the rational response to then remove your burglar bars?

These things aren't comparable, which is probably why you're so confused.

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 minute ago, Tempra said:

Try reading up on the BDS movement before dismissing the anti-semitic movement as simply opposition to "Netanyahu's government."

BTW, must be hard for you to support the Patriots now knowing that their Dynasty has been led by a bunch of xenophobic, racist, misogynistic Trump supporters, eh?

If the BDS ran that Trump of International finance you will use it an example of Anti-Semitism.

There was a thread a few months back that dealt with this and the issue that I thought crossed the line was really similar since Soros is being a synonym with Anti-Semitism as Rothschild.

What a bunch of B.S.