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US Elections: Apocalypse Now

Inigima

By Inigima,
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Ser Scot A Ellison Council Member

Ser Scot A Ellison

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Castel said:

This actually begs an interesting question: looking at the Democratic leadership...what have been their most confrontational moments on bigotry? I mean, besides the "deplorables" comment everyone points to. 

Like, what's Obama's real life "anger translator" moment? 

I don't know that the Democrats have been particularly confrontational.  They want people to vote for them.  Even the "Deplorables" moment wasn't really that bad.  I'm not sure where to go with this.  

Mormont,

No, people don't like to have bigotry pointed out.  Yes, they react with anger when it is pointed out.  Which is why I think such engagements taking place on an emotional level is a dangerous road to traverse.  

When people attempt to engage others on an emotional level they are likely to get an emotional response.  What the person attempting an emotional engagement is seeking is an empathetic response.  What they may get is an angry "Fuck you! How dare you say I'm a bigot!" response. 

I'd love to know if there are any studies that ask if emotional or rational engagement is more or less likely to change minds.

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Castel Council Member

Castel

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Does this matter? Any criticism by the media or the press that Trump cones to face will be dismissed and derided by his supporters as liberal propaganda, especially when it needs be taken seriously.  These people, these supporters, do not see places like CNN, the Washington Post, the NYT, NBC, et al. as anything other than spewing liberal garbage.  Where does the accountability come from when no one wants to believe that there might be fire beneath the smoke...

As I was saying during the election: fuck his base. You don't change people's base.

The issue is 1) the opposition who will also get to vote at some point 2) the marginal cases who either sat at home or voted for him cause, in his words: "what do you have to lose". Not all of those people belong to a FOX News vortex.

The real question is whether the media is actually capable of holding anyone accountable. When Trump was 10 points down they hit him a bit but they might revert back to their feckless, servile selves.

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DanteGabriel Council Member

DanteGabriel

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Tempra said:

Try reading up on the anti-semitic BDS movement before dismissing it as simply opposition to "Netanyahu's government."

BTW, must be hard for you to support the Patriots now knowing that their Dynasty has been led by a bunch of xenophobic, racist, misogynistic Trump supporters, eh?

I've been on my way out of NFL fandom for a while, and in fact have talked about this some in the NFL thread, but I appreciate the unrelated personal shot to remind me what a small person you are.

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Frog Eater Council Member

Frog Eater

Posted
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1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Trump won the white racist vote and the deplorable vote was larger than expected.  Convince me I'm wrong. 

You can't because these voices say otherwise.  Plus my sister was dished out a nice heapin' helping of misogyny at work by a Trump supporter. 

And so it begins. 

https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/11/louisiana-student-lied-about-being-attacked-by-alleged-trump-supporters.html

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Frog Eater Council Member

Frog Eater

Posted
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1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

You honestly believe any significant percentage of BLM protesters are being paid?

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/blacklivesmatter-leader-deray-lives-home-owned-by-soros-connected/

Its organizers are

https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2016/07/15/the-white-elites-who-fund-black-lives-matter/

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LongRider Council Member

LongRider

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Frog Eater said:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/11/louisiana-student-lied-about-being-attacked-by-alleged-trump-supporters.html

There will be some lies, but so what?  Plus Fox news is a propaganda outlet and exaggerates.  Here's what someone said in another thread on this board;

Quote

this year and really beginning last yr, i have witnessed the further de-evolution of civility, the complete break down of simple courtesy, i get that politics is often ugly but my little Karate Princess just got reprimanded at school yesterday because she defended herself (with a couple of perfectly executed round kicks) against a group of boys who decided to "pull a trump"...yes that is what they called it...which meant they roved around the school trying to grab girls by what ever presented itself, crotch, ass, or breasts...now interestingly for the lead boy (a popular kid) who took the brunt of her unflinching desire to protect herself (which i encourage) he has learned not all women will "let you do what you want if you are a star"...yeah that was a capper to what has been a really shitty time

from here;

 

Much of this real and not exaggerated. Look around, it's there.

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Eponine Council Member

Eponine

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No, people don't like to have bigotry pointed out.  Yes, they react with anger when it is pointed out.  Which is why I think such engagements taking place on an emotional level is a dangerous road to traverse.  

Do you think it's more effective to point out the humanity of the people they're bigoted against? 

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Ariadne23 Landed Knight

Ariadne23

Posted
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31 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I'd love to know if there are any studies that ask if emotional or rational engagement is more or less likely to change minds.

If I remember correctly, this This American Life episode discussing a retracted and repeated study on using empathy to canvas discusses exactly that. Sadly I cannot remember the precise conclusion, but I'll pull it up again if I do some driving today. 

https://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/584/for-your-reconsideration

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Castel Council Member

Castel

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I don't know that the Democrats have been particularly confrontational.  They want people to vote for them.  Even the "Deplorables" moment wasn't really that bad.  I'm not sure where to go with this.  
 

Yeah, this is a bit of a problem for the theory then?

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Fez Council Member

Fez

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You should be. Dubya wasn't a vindictive, thin-skinned manchild with no experience. And we just gave that control of the military. What could go wrong?

Sure he was. He went to war with Iraq to prove a point with his father. 

Look, Bush is almost certainly a better *person* than Trump (and Bush's one truly great accomplishment, PEPFAR, is not something Trump would ever do), but Bush was an absolutely terrible President. Trump could be just as bad, it'd be very hard for him to be worse.

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Paladin of Ice Council Member

Paladin of Ice

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7 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

Are all the voters who voted for Obama in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin the last two elections  bigots? Or did the Clinton campaign just take them for granted ? 

A little from column A, a little from column B.

Sean Quinn, of the polling site 

FiveThirtyEight, respected for its obsessiveness and eerie prescience, recently posted a hair-raising story about a pair of Barack Obama supporters. Quinn seems ready to verify its source, but only after the election. At any rate, it goes like this: A man canvassing for Obama in western Pennsylvania asks a housewife which candidate she intends to vote for. She yells to her husband to find out. From the interior of the house, he calls back, “We’re voting for the nigger!” At which point the housewife turns to the canvasser and calmly repeats her husband’s declaration.

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LongRider Council Member

LongRider

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

Are all the voters who voted for Obama in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin the last two elections  bigots? Or did the Clinton campaign just take them for granted ? 

The answer is much more complicated than that.  What has been reported is that many people who don't vote regularly or much at all came out for Trump, people who wouldn't have voted for Obama. Many former Obama voters, POC especially seemed to have stayed home.  And yes, I think they were taken for granted as well.   Plus there could be other factors in the mix.

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Arch-MaesterPhilip Council Member

Arch-MaesterPhilip

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6 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The answer is much more complicated than that.  What has been reported is that many people who don't vote regularly or much at all came out for Trump, people who wouldn't have voted for Obama. Many former Obama voters, POC especially seemed to have stayed home.  And yes, I think they were taken for granted as well.   Plus there could be other factors in the mix.

I'm not denying sexism and racism came into play here just to be clear. I do know some people personally who never voted who did turnout for Trump. But in New York their vote didn't count for much anyway but I'm not sure if they knew that .  

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