Planetos History vs. Earth History

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

This is something I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while, and so far I haven't found anything directly from GRRM's lips addressing it. We all know that ASoIaF is reflective of a medieval society, especially in Westeros, but what I do not understand is whether this represents the extent of Westeros' and Planetos' technological/anthropological development or not. In other words, on Earth the Medieval period lasted from the 5th to the 15th century AD, so if this is the assumed period we find Planetos in, does that mean that, hypothetically speaking, if we were to transport ourselves 500 to 1000 years into Planetos' future, would they be driving cars and flying airplanes? OR has human civilization in Planetos reached the limits of its technological progression and will forever be at its current level?

The reason why this is confusing to me is because the documented history of Westeros/Planetos lacks so much detail, and the way it's presented, even in A World of Ice and Fire, makes it seem that the current level of technical progress has been the same since time began with a few exceptions (bronze>iron>steel, or in A World of Ice and Fire how it mentions that round towers were a development that replaced square towers on a castle's curtain walls). For Example, we know Winterfell has been around since Bran the Builder allegedly, but we have no idea as to how it began, how it evolved and progressed, etc., from what we know, it makes it seem like the form it is in now is the way it's always been.  We know it has a "rambling" floor plan from Bran's descriptions from AGoT, but there is nothing that specifically states that Winterfell or any other of Westeros's castles started out as mott and baileys with wooden palisades and Wooden keeps, then went to stone, etc 

I guess what I'm looking for is a comparison to the development of REAL human history. So, if the long night was supposedly 8000-10,000 years ago, the Andel invasion was 6000-8000 years ago, and we know that originally the first men only had Bronze, when exactly did the humans on Planetos transition from the Bronze age to the IRon Age? I'm assuming Planetos is currently in an Iron age, but when did it start exactly? BAsed on our progression, I suppose Planetos would need to have coal or other hydrocarbons in order to progress further, but does anyone know if Planetos is sort of "locked" in to a perpetual stasis like what is done in so many other fantasy worlds? Where they're just forever in a medieval period?

[Snowmelter]

I don't think there is any correlation.  Certainly GRRM has used bits of real history to enrich his tale (War of the Roses, the Scottish version of the RW, for example).  It's clear that Planetos is sort of stuck in the medieval period.  Their iron age in Westoros started with the invasion of the Andals and not much progress has happened since.  Why? Magic and dragons most like. Can you imagine what earth's history would have been like with the addition of those two variables?  Rumor has it that the Citidel and the Maesters are trying to change that and make Planetos more "earth-like" for lack of a better term, but we have no direct proof.  In any case, it serves for an epic background for an epic fantasy tale.  I'm guessing GRRM would say "don't sweat the small stuff, it's only a story."

 

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

9 hours ago, Snowmelter said:

I don't think there is any correlation.  Certainly GRRM has used bits of real history to enrich his tale (War of the Roses, the Scottish version of the RW, for example).  It's clear that Planetos is sort of stuck in the medieval period.  Their iron age in Westoros started with the invasion of the Andals and not much progress has happened since.  Why? Magic and dragons most like. Can you imagine what earth's history would have been like with the addition of those two variables?  Rumor has it that the Citidel and the Maesters are trying to change that and make Planetos more "earth-like" for lack of a better term, but we have no direct proof.  In any case, it serves for an epic background for an epic fantasy tale.  I'm guessing GRRM would say "don't sweat the small stuff, it's only a story."

 

It's funny that you say "don't sweat the small stuff" when, in my opinion, 90% of the stuff that people read into and the theories they come up with are things that I don't even think GRRM thought of...

[Fencer]

13 hours ago, Snowmelter said:

Their iron age in Westoros started with the invasion of the Andals and not much progress has happened since.  Why? Magic and dragons most like. Can you imagine what earth's history would have been like with the addition of those two variables? 

 

While I absolutely agree, I would also point to the messed up seasons as a major factor contributing to the stunting of societal growth.  Multi-year winters, in particular, cause significant damage to the population, as well as restricting travel and trade.  Furthermore, this adds even more burden in the warmer years to grow, harvest and stockpile food and other supplies.  The necessities of survival have to take precedence over academic pursuits, regardless of weather the resulting technological advances may (or may not) assist in survival.

I don't think Westeros/Essos is locked into a technological era that they are incapable of advancing beyond, but the hurdles to do so are significantly greater than those that we historically faced.

[theblackdragonI]

14 hours ago, AnarchoPrimitiv said:

This is something I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while, and so far I haven't found anything directly from GRRM's lips addressing it. We all know that ASoIaF is reflective of a medieval society, especially in Westeros, but what I do not understand is whether this represents the extent of Westeros' and Planetos' technological/anthropological development or not. In other words, on Earth the Medieval period lasted from the 5th to the 15th century AD, so if this is the assumed period we find Planetos in, does that mean that, hypothetically speaking, if we were to transport ourselves 500 to 1000 years into Planetos' future, would they be driving cars and flying airplanes? OR has human civilization in Planetos reached the limits of its technological progression and will forever be at its current level?

The reason why this is confusing to me is because the documented history of Westeros/Planetos lacks so much detail, and the way it's presented, even in A World of Ice and Fire, makes it seem that the current level of technical progress has been the same since time began with a few exceptions (bronze>iron>steel, or in A World of Ice and Fire how it mentions that round towers were a development that replaced square towers on a castle's curtain walls). For Example, we know Winterfell has been around since Bran the Builder allegedly, but we have no idea as to how it began, how it evolved and progressed, etc., from what we know, it makes it seem like the form it is in now is the way it's always been.  We know it has a "rambling" floor plan from Bran's descriptions from AGoT, but there is nothing that specifically states that Winterfell or any other of Westeros's castles started out as mott and baileys with wooden palisades and Wooden keeps, then went to stone, etc 

I guess what I'm looking for is a comparison to the development of REAL human history. So, if the long night was supposedly 8000-10,000 years ago, the Andel invasion was 6000-8000 years ago, and we know that originally the first men only had Bronze, when exactly did the humans on Planetos transition from the Bronze age to the IRon Age? I'm assuming Planetos is currently in an Iron age, but when did it start exactly? BAsed on our progression, I suppose Planetos would need to have coal or other hydrocarbons in order to progress further, but does anyone know if Planetos is sort of "locked" in to a perpetual stasis like what is done in so many other fantasy worlds? Where they're just forever in a medieval period?

I don't think there is any technological correlation between the two. I think George just added the long timeline to put emphais on certain events, some examples are:

1) Long Night - So long ago that nobody remembers how to defeat the Walkers or if theyre a real thing

2) The Starks - Ruled in Winterfell and the North (albeit for less) for close to 8,000 years as one family. Probably to show how much of an institution they are.

They're just two examples I can think of but my take on it has always been that George set an unrealistic timeline on it that he probably regrets due to the high improbability of it all. Like one family ruling for 8,000 years is absolutely ridiculous.

As to your question I honestly have no idea about technical advancement, Iron came with the Andals though did it not? I always thought that was how they defeated the first men. Kind of like the Celts I guess? 

And then the Doom of Valyria is supposed to mirror the fall of Rome and the loss of knowledge that led to the Dark Ages (loss of Valyrain knowledge).  

[Burning down the House]

15 hours ago, AnarchoPrimitiv said:

 We know it has a "rambling" floor plan from Bran's descriptions from AGoT, but there is nothing that specifically states that Winterfell or any other of Westeros's castles started out as mott and baileys with wooden palisades and Wooden keeps, then went to stone, etc 

I guess what I'm looking for is a comparison to the development of REAL human history. So, if the long night was supposedly 8000-10,000 years ago, the Andel invasion was 6000-8000 years ago, and we know that originally the first men only had Bronze, when exactly did the humans on Planetos transition from the Bronze age to the IRon Age? I'm assuming Planetos is currently in an Iron age, but when did it start exactly? BAsed on our progression, I suppose Planetos would need to have coal or other hydrocarbons in order to progress further, but does anyone know if Planetos is sort of "locked" in to a perpetual stasis like what is done in so many other fantasy worlds? Where they're just forever in a medieval period?

The books mention the Twins started out as wooden castles and were later upgraded to stone. (I can't remember where.)  Also there are a lot of questions about the timeline.  It might turn out that the ancient events are not as far back as we are lead to believe.

[Orphalesion]

It's called "Medieval Stasis" and its a pretty common (you might even say ubiquitous) trope in Fantasy Literature.

Even Tolkien was guilty of it, though there were some technological/magical breakthroughs in later ages (most importantly the Rings of Power themselves) most stuff was invented either by the Elves or the Dwarves all the way back before even the sun had risen for the first time and then never received any improvements and was never supplanted by better technology.

So Planetos is not really unusual in it's lack of big, world changing advancements.

Though note that both GRRM and Tolkien (late in his life) decided that the background story of their universes that introduced all that stasis and unrealistic time periods might have simply been a product of unreliable sources.

Compare people from the Renaissance or the 18th century German Alps depicting Biblical and Classical scenes with people dressed and having a technology level just like them instead of how they actually looked.

[Lointain]

Some maesters think that the Andal invasion was only 2000 years ago.

So, Westeros knows how to work iron since 2000 years ago.

If you think that, in the real world, the secret of making iron weapons is widespread in the Levant  since 3200 years ago, and inWestern Europe since 2800 years ago, Westeros is not that late.

Also the glasses of Myr (similar to the telescope of Galileo?), the sea maps of the Summer Islanders (similar to the portuguese portolans?), the rise of the bourgeosie has a economic power, with some administrative responsabilities, dabbling into politics and with some clear social pride (we see that in KL, with Tobho Mot or Saloreon, with the Antler Men and some of the men choosed to work with LF) or the level of knowledge of the Maesters, the university-like organization of the Citadel, the crescent administrative centralization around the Iron Throne, the naval technology, the architecture, the evolution of the role of the Faith in the7 Kingdoms (with something we can call an westerosi version of the Franciscans and the revolution they implemented on the role of the Catholic Church, with the Great Sparrow and his actions), all of this is a proof that "Planetos" is not in some stasis-type "permanent medieval era".

I remember, in the chapter when Jaime goes to the castle of Tytos Blackwood. The LC see the walls of the castle and the towers. Square towers, a design that Jaime thinks has outdated, and less efective in a siege that a round tower, because these can withstand better attacks with stones. I mean, the westerosi had some notion of the progress in some fields.

[Orphalesion]

12 minutes ago, Lointain said:

Some maesters think that the Andal invasion was only 2000 years ago.

So, Westeros knows how to work iron since 2000 years ago.

If you think that, in the real world, the secret of making iron weapons is widespread in the Levant  since 3200 years ago, and inWestern Europe since 2800 years ago, Westeros is not that late.

Also the glasses of Myr (similar to the telescope of Galileo?), the sea maps of the Summer Islanders (similar to the portuguese portolans?), the rise of the bourgeosie has a economic power, with some administrative responsabilities, dabbling into politics and with some clear social pride (we see that in KL, with Tobho Mot or Saloreon, with the Antler Men and some of the men choosed to work with LF) or the level of knowledge of the Maesters, the university-like organization of the Citadel, the crescent administrative centralization around the Iron Throne, the naval technology, the architecture, the evolution of the role of the Faith in the7 Kingdoms (with something we can call an westerosi version of the Franciscans and the revolution they implemented on the role of the Catholic Church, with the Great Sparrow and his actions), all of this is a proof that "Planetos" is not in some stasis-type "permanent medieval era".

I remember, in the chapter when Jaime goes to the castle of Tytos Blackwood. The LC see the walls of the castle and the towers. Square towers, a design that Jaime thinks has outdated, and less efective in a siege that a round tower, because these can withstand better attacks with stones. I mean, the westerosi had some notion of the progress in some fields.

Yes if you look closer there are lots of hints that there is at least some sort of progression, in both GRRM's and Tolkien's works. The effect of a stasis however comes from the mythical elements in the stories; things like Winterfell or the ancient Elf swords in the Hobbit/LoTR.

Thing is, if one looks at actual tales from the Dark Ages/Medieval Period/Early Renaissance then their "mythical ancient" artifacts also looked completely contemporary (which brings us back to the German paintings form the 1700s/1800s that put the Virgin Mary in German peasant dress)

For all we know Winterfell was a wooden fort in the beginning but nobody remembers it anymore, or even a wooden fort that was built at some point at the suspected site of an important event during the first War for the Dawn.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, AnarchoPrimitiv said:

snip

My initial thought was that Planetos was Earth in the future. Our military-industrial capabilities advance over the next thousand years or so to where we can create dragons, creepy ice creatures, little faun-like beings and all manner of "magical" stuff, and then the cataclysm comes along and wipes out all traces of civilization. But the genetically altered creatures survive and go native, as does the remnants of mankind, which descends into a prehistoric state.

Then as the eons unfold, mankind follows the same path through early agro-civilization and empire-building as before, except this time the dragons, etc. are real. We now find it stuck in the feudal period we see on the page, probably held in place by the very magical-chem-genetic forces that were unleashed eons ago.

The only flaw in the plan is the fact that there are seven "wanderers" in the night sky, not just five. But maybe it has something to do with the story of the second moon that broke apart and all the dragons flew out of. Some sort of space station perhaps? the pieces of which are now in orbit?

[Philokles]

As @Orphalesion says, poor Westerosi historical methodology accounts for much of it - both in inflating the true length of time since events occurred and presuming historical times resembled the present. This both subverts the Medieval Stasis trope and has narrative importance - especially in Sam's arc where his research uncovers inconsistencies in what is considered myth and what is reality. He remarks on the discrepancy regarding how many Lord Commanders there have been himself.

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

On 11/11/2016 at 3:52 PM, theblackdragonI said:

 

As to your question I honestly have no idea about technical advancement, Iron came with the Andals though did it not? I always thought that was how they defeated the first men. Kind of like the Celts I guess? 

 

Actually, there's evidence that the first men DID have Iron, just not Steel (and if you remember, humans on planet earth had iron for some time before they developed Steel, which is just iron infused with carbon.  In Old Nan's tale about the others, she says: "They were cold things, dead things, that hated IRON and fire...", now, even though the accounts of different people in the story can lack reliability, I tend to take Old Nan's tales as rather truthful, and here where she says the others hated iron, well, we know the others came before any Andal (Nan even says "this was long before the days of the Andals"), so the only way the others could be known to hate iron, is if Iron was around.

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

On 11/11/2016 at 6:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

My initial thought was that Planetos was Earth in the future. Our military-industrial capabilities advance over the next thousand years or so to where we can create dragons, creepy ice creatures, little faun-like beings and all manner of "magical" stuff, and then the cataclysm comes along and wipes out all traces of civilization. But the genetically altered creatures survive and go native, as does the remnants of mankind, which descends into a prehistoric state.

Then as the eons unfold, mankind follows the same path through early agro-civilization and empire-building as before, except this time the dragons, etc. are real. We now find it stuck in the feudal period we see on the page, probably held in place by the very magical-chem-genetic forces that were unleashed eons ago.

The only flaw in the plan is the fact that there are seven "wanderers" in the night sky, not just five. But maybe it has something to do with the story of the second moon that broke apart and all the dragons flew out of. Some sort of space station perhaps? the pieces of which are now in orbit?

Have you ever seen the animated movie "Wizards" by Ralph Bakshi?  It's pretty much your theory, it takes place a million years in the future, after nuclear war wipes out our current civilization, and after the eadioactivity subsides in some places, elves, dwarves, etc. start to reappear again.

 

One of the reasons I started thinking about this whole issue is because of a youtube video by GoT Academy where one of the guya jokingly predicted that the last scene in the series would be hundreds or thousands of years in the future and some modern construction workers are starting up a bulldozer to knockover the weirwood tree that bran and bloodraven are/were in..."Hey, Carlos...get that bulldozer started up, we haven't got all damn day"...I thought it was pretty funny, but it got me thinking.  I think one of the "hardest" elements to digest, and someone pointed it out above, it that a family like the starks is claimed to be the defacto rulers of the north for thousands of years, when in our reality, there is really no example of a single family or lineage ruling for 5000+ years.  Either way, I'd like to kidnap GRRM and force him to clarify a few things.  One of the biggest mind blowers though was in AWoIaF where it was stated that the ironborn claim that the seastone chair was already there when they arrived, and that there are structures around the world made of an oily black stone that must have been made by some previous advanced society that predates the history of every know civilization...I would just love for there to be a detailed timeline released after the series is finished, that'd be awesome.

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

On 11/11/2016 at 6:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

The only flaw in the plan is the fact that there are seven "wanderers" in the night sky, not just five. But maybe it has something to do with the story of the second moon that broke apart and all the dragons flew out of. Some sort of space station perhaps? the pieces of which are now in orbit?

I think that the second moon was a meteor or comet that exploded in the sky.  Now we know GRRM is influenced by irish mythology (the COTF an obvious illusion) and some prominent anthropologists now believe that a comet or meteor that came close to earth 3500 years ago, and glowing red in the sky(sound familiar?) and is the basis behind the Irish god Lu.  Don't know if anyone has come across the Lightbringer is Lucifer site, but I recommend that everyone check it out: https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/