The case for Arya becoming a queen in her endgame

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

If in the outline/ or at 1991 it is Jon and Arya as king and queen in the ending (which we dont know) , then would he change it? Does it count as fine details? Also does not Arya(ice), Dany(fire) and Jon(ice and fire) fit? Now Tyrion is hanging around with Dany instead of Arya. And at least in the show he worships her/Dany (maybe like he worshipped Arya iin the outline?) But it could go towards that ending right?

Well you assume that the ending will result from what he himself called "making shit up". No, I don't think he'll change the ending. I just never think Jon-Arya was endgame to begin with.

[LordImp]

2 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

I agree. Cheers to that 

However it is not necessary that Jon is stuck as king in the north. Especially if he marries Dany which I think he will. His castle may be winterfell his arms may be that of the Starks but he can still be king of westeros by conquest.

He is idolizing Daeron and a Targaryen who had conquered in the south. Maybe he too will have some of his legacy.

Jon (who is the only black bastard we know of) is called the real king of the castle at King's landing (Red Keep) . In the Winterfell crypts he felt he did not belong there,

Also for Arya to be a conqueror it makes more sense for her to conquer Westeros, right? Because she may not be 12 by the time Winterfell is conquered and may not be physically needed for its conquest. Also as she knows the secret passageways in King's landing,it makes more sense for her to conquer Westeros, right?. Making her know about them has to have some purpose, right? That passageway with dragons which takes you outside and inside the castle. Was it only to make her escape?

Two recommended posts

http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/132985969484/my-predicted-asoiaf-endgame-based-on-grrms-hints

http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/152426102574/the-dragon-has-three-heads-and-the-third-head

Basically I believe Jon will marry both Dany and Arya.

Jon who is (ice and fire) will marry Dany(fire) and Arya(ice). Thats why his/theirs is the song of ice and fire. The dragon has three heads. Though all this will be accompanied by death of a beloved (maybe Dany first/then much later Arya after she rules) , revenge, passion, violence of large scale and the toughness of ruling a highly indebted realm. 

I just hope that iron bank wont kill all the dragons.

I like this . Jon who is ice and fire marrying Dany and Arya. Though i think Dany is the one who provides Jon with a child . 

[TyrionTLannister]

The first three mentions of Arya in AGOT could all foreshadow a romantic relationship with Jon and her becoming Queen of Westeros. 

Quote

He would always ask her that. “In the kitchen, arguing about names for the wolf pups.” She spread her cloak on the forest floor and sat beside the pool, her back to the weirwood. She could feel the eyes watching her, but she did her best to ignore them. “Arya is already in love, and Sansa is charmed and gracious, but Rickon is not quite sure.” - AGOT Catelyn

Quote

His half sisters escorted the royal princes. Arya was paired with plump young Tommen, whose white-blond hair was longer than hers. - AGOT Jon

Tommen's hair color is quite similar to the silvery-gold hair color of the Targaryens, and Jon is a Targaryen. 

Quote

“You must,” he said. “Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too.” - AGOT Catelyn

There is very little doubt that Jon, Dany, and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon. The evidence is overwhelming. But I think you're right in your predictions that Jon will marry both Dany and Arya at different times, and that Dany will die.

[Arya-Jon]

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Your arguments are rather weak. In your opening post you put forward 6 "foreshadowings":

• some of them spoiled by referring to the show (No. 1, 3, 5 and 6)
• based on grammatical details (No. 2 "Father to queens not queen.")
• playing billiard (from Jon to Arya, No. 1, from Willow to Arya (No. 6), from Alys Karstark to Arya (No. 6)

I feel you are following a lot of wishful thinking. We have 5 books with plenty of possible candidates to rule Westero (Stannis, Daenerys, Young Griff alias Aegon, Tommen/Cersei/Myrcella Lannister, maybe even Littlefinger, Jon Snow).

You bet on a candiate (Arya) which would only have 2 books left to become a leader/ruler starting from zero? A bet with a very high risk I would say.

Thanks for your response and evaluation  

I do think that most foreshadowings are not perfect.  Like even for something which seemed as obvious as Rhaegar and Lyanna many people did give counter evidence for that not happening. Which is fine. The author is not supposed to make things too obvious. Even in the red wedding foreshadowing , Sandor using the term "bloody wedding" which is just a grammatical thing like my foreshadowing 2,  Even the house of undying foreshadowing with Robb with a wolf's head does not clearly foreshadow it. Its only when we look back that it become obvious. Though it does add to the feeling of suspicion.

Arya's foreshadowings too add to the feeling of suspicion. Why is Ned talking about king with Arya rather than lord? Does he expect to kill Joffrey and get Arya married with Tommen? Why did the author with full consciousness write it? Why does the author use queens rather than queen? Could he not just say father to a queen?  For both these suspicions I dont need the show. What does the author mean when he talks about a 12 year old conqueror? Was he just jesting?  Why did the author have to talk about a crown when Alys is being compared to Arya? Did he need to? Why did he in the same page compare Willow to Arya and then talk about her as a queen? All these suspicions do not require the show.  

Why has the author named her wolf Nymeria? My foreshadowings are not necessarily foreshadowings but question which you can answer.

It would be interesting to see whether he has used a methaporical crown for someone else who is not compared with Arya (I dont mean a real crown but these indirect things) Like if he tends to use it with a lot of other people , then sure it may reduce the strength of my foreshadowing. 

Just to be clear I think Jon will win the iron throne (evidence in my signature) but Arya will rule as his queen as the wording was "You will marry a king" 

For whatever its worth, I was a softcore Jon Sansa shipper once. But when I saw Jon-Arya evidence and the outline, I began thinking about it Ie I am willing to change my wishes if evidence contradicts.

[Arya-Jon]

10 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I like this . Jon who is ice and fire marrying Dany and Arya. Though i think Dany is the one who provides Jon with a child . 

Yeah. I suspect that the first born will be from her. Because with Arya, your children will be princes and lords is said. But not king/s. But I dont know how they will make time for the pregnancy.

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

The first three mentions of Arya in AGOT could all foreshadow a romantic relationship with Jon and her becoming Queen of Westeros. 

Tommen's hair color is quite similar to the silvery-gold hair color of the Targaryens, and Jon is a Targaryen.

The first imo just means that Arya is of the first-sight type. If and when she falls in love, she'll be very much attached to the man.

She hates being paired with Tommen.

 

[Arya-Jon]

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well you assume that the ending will result from what he himself called "making shit up". No, I don't think he'll change the ending. I just never think Jon-Arya was endgame to begin with.

He did say that he was not completely making shit up. Like he was partially joking. I read that in fattest leach or joanjett's comments. Like there are a lot of true things. For instance Jon's secret parentage. But he could be making shit up when he made Jon and Arya fall passionately in love. Or in some form of Jaime /Cersei relationship.

The way I understand it, he knew the ending in 1991 and the begining. But he did not know how to get there. So in the outline he made shit up. The process may be different not the ending. Thats what I believe.

But I could be wrong. Who knows. But I was encouraged by the Willow/Alys connections as queen.

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

He did say that he was not completely making shit up. Like he was partially joking. I read that in fattest leach or joanjett's comments. Like there are a lot of true things. For instance Jon's secret parentage. But he could be making shit up when he made Jon and Arya fall passionately in love. Or in some form of Jaime /Cersei relationship.

The way I understand it, he knew the ending in 1991 and the begining. But he did not know how to get there. So in the outline he made shit up. The process may be different not the ending. Thats what I believe.

But I could be wrong. Who knows. But I was encouraged by the Willow/Alys connections as queen.

He talked about the outline at length, in strong words. Bottom line is - don't use what was leaked in the outline to argument a certain outcome.

And who's jokingly said Willow to marry? If you select Willow as a foreshadowing for Arya as queen (and I do agree that Willow is an Arya stand-inn, for several reasons), then you can't just pick and choose from it and ignore the rest. Willow is linked to Gendry.

[Arya-Jon]

13 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

 

There is very little doubt that Jon, Dany, and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon. The evidence is overwhelming. But I think you're right in your predictions that Jon will marry both Dany and Arya at different times, and that Dany will die.

Yeah i think Tyrion will ride a dragon. So if dragonriding is a basis, then he may be.

But I think being soulmates (three hearts that beat as one) with the dragon is the requirement.So united that you are almost one. Being trustworthy is the requirement. Being conquerors is the requirement.

Quote

There are two men in the world who I can trust

Quote

No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. 
Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them

Also Dany will face a betrayal. So any of the candidates could do that.

[Arya-Jon]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And who's jokingly said Willow to marry?

Actually he was talking about Sansa

Lord Eddard’s daughters live. One has just been wed. The other…” Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? “…if the gods are good, she’ll forget she was a Stark. She’ll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced inkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall.

One has been wed is Arya. At least thats what Jaime would claim to the blackwoods. As he would want them to believe the bolton's ruse. That is the public story. Sansa is the one in danger. She has commited treachery in their eyes and he would not be saying "just has been wed so calmly about her. She is the one who  he is talking about.

But it clearly is a Grrm inside joke.  But Notice what he says "she’ll forget she was a Stark"

Do you think Arya will forget she is a Stark because that is the precondition for marrying a blacksmith or fat-faced inkeep. Further Gendry is grouped with Hotpie. Its an alternate future (something like sideshadowing) I think. Lets see.

[Arya-Jon]

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And who's jokingly said Willow to marry?

Though which quote are you talking about exactly? Is it the one I referred to above. Often authors try to have fun with readers by giving them sideshadowings or alternate futures.

[TyrionTLannister]

GRRM said in the outline that only 5 characters would survive to the last book. Back then, he only had 8 POV characters, the 5 main characters plus Ned, Cat, and Sansa. Even if he's upgraded her to main character, doesn't that imply Sansa will eventually die, assuming the ending has stayed the same since 1991? 

The parallels between Tyrion, Jon, and Dany are numerous and extremely specific. Their mothers died in childbirth, they lived in the shadow of their older brothers, they killed their lovers, they're the third children of their fathers, etc. I don't think trust or betrayal is relevant in this case.

It would also create a nice symmetry. The six main characters are Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, and Sansa. Three of them (Jon, Dany, and Tyrion) are the heads of the dragon, and the other three are the surviving Stark children (Arya, Bran, and Sansa).

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

Actually he was talking about Sansa

Lord Eddard’s daughters live. One has just been wed. The other…” Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? “…if the gods are good, she’ll forget she was a Stark. She’ll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced inkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall.

One has been wed is Arya. At least thats what Jaime would claim to the blackwoods. As he would want them to believe the bolton's ruse. That is the public story. Sansa is the one in danger. She has commited treachery in their eyes and he would not be saying "just has been wed so calmly about her. She is the one who  he is talking about.

But it clearly is a Grrm inside joke.  But Notice what he says "she’ll forget she was a Stark"

Do you think Arya will forget she is a Stark because that is the precondition for marrying a blacksmith or fat-faced inkeep. Further Gendry is grouped with Hotpie. Its an alternate future (something like sideshadowing) I think. Lets see.

Jaime never met Willow, so he could never said anything about Willow.

Hyle Hunt remarked he'd pity the guy who'd marry Willow, and he jokingly referred to Gendy probably being the one. It's the same chapter where you got the quote of Willow ordering everyone around like a queen.

As for Jaime's remark: the inside joke is that while Jaime's talking about Sansa, what he says fits Arya better, as Arya's the sole one who actually knows a blacksmith apprentice and a fat boy who works at an inn.

[a black swan]

6 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

Yeah. I suspect that the first born will be from her. Because with Arya, your children will be princes and lords is said. But not king/s. But I dont know how they will make time for the pregnancy.

Holy damn. Ned's words making more and more sense. I always wondered about the princes part. This explains it! 

The other stuff Arya mentioned to Ned about her future and wanting to build castles and becoming a King’s Councillor? 

George has another Queen to draw inspiration from in Arya's story:

GOOD QUEEN ALYSANNE TARGARYEN 

- Alysanne wasn’t raised with the expectation that she would be Queen.

- Alysanne was the youngest living daughter of King Aenys I Targaryen. 

- Alysanne was 12 years old when her brother became king. Arya will turn 12 in Winds of Winter, when Jon becomes KiTN

- Alysanne was a dragonrider who loved to fly. *Arya also has a bond with a mythical beast in her Direwolf, one that she can warg. Arya also expresses a desire to fly several times. She says she wants to turn into a wolf with wings

- Alysanne is a keen archer and hunter. Very “tomboy” and unlady-like activities. 

- Queen Alysanne enjoyed physical activity (a quality that would have appealed to her brother Jaehaerys, who was reputed to be a fine rider as well as a skilled archer and horseman). They spent many years growing up together before Jaehaerys became King. Alysanne’s older sister already married off several times in violent and political marriages.

- Alysanne married her brother Jaehaerys and became Queen. She was also the  King’s most trusted Counsellor.

 

LOVE FOR THE SMALLFOLK

- Alysanne was loved by the smallfolk. She lived amongst them even after becoming Queen. Sounds familiar?

Quote

"Sansa knew all about the sorts of people Arya liked to talk to: squires and grooms and serving girls, old men and naked children, rough-spoken freeriders of uncertain birth. Arya would make friends with anybody.”

And:

“Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her farthers table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, and gizzeld old men at arms.”

- Queen Alysanne planned and funded the building of a Castle called Deep Lake. She had Queensgate named in her honor. Arya wants to build Castles

- Alysanne was a fierce believer in woman’s rights and actively changed societies standards. “Alysanne saw no reason why a man should be favored over a woman”. Which is something Arya strongly believes in and has even told Jon directly. Alysanne went on to say, "...if Jaehaerys thought women of less use, then he would have no need of her." They later reconciled. 

[Arya-Jon]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Jaime never met Willow, so he could never said anything about Willow.

Hyle Hunt remarked he'd pity the guy who'd marry Willow, and he jokingly referred to Gendy probably being the one.

 

One day that little girl will make some man a frightful wife. That poor ’prentice boy, most like.

Oh so this one, right? Yeah it could arguably be a foreshadowing. Though it could also be literal. We dont know what exactly Gendry feels.

But again as AryaNym has pointed out the kindly man and Grrm are offering Arya various tempting futures

Quote

 

-training as a courtesan, a return to Westeros, etc. etc.--he offers her a marriage to, among others, "an honest apprentice boy."

 

 

Its just that if he is anywhere near to becoming a king, it would be foreshadowed and he would be a more important character with POVs. Grrm has complained about Aragorn in LOTR that they did not show how he ruled. So if Gendry is ruling there has to be a lot more character development, the kind which is happening to Jon/Dany or even Arya and Tyrion.

[LordImp]

40 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

Yeah. I suspect that the first born will be from her. Because with Arya, your children will be princes and lords is said. But not king/s. But I dont know how they will make time for the pregnancy.

Yeah time is a problem , which is why i think Dany will be the only one to give Jon a kid. But of course Jon and Arya can end up together and have a child together after the series end. It would be sweet if we got a ADOS epilogue with Jon and Aryas kid as POV.

as @DutchArya mentioned both Arya and Rhaenys wanted to explore the lands beyond the Sunset sea . I would be satisfied with a ending where Arya just leaves Westeros . 

[TyrionTLannister]

I can see one of ASOIAF's final chapters reflecting Bran's first chapter. King Jon plays Ned's role, as father and executioner; Dany's son plays Jon Snow's role, as the future king, half-brother and outsider with different hair color; and so on. 

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, Arya-Jon said:

Thanks for your response and evaluation  

I do think that most foreshadowings are not perfect.  Like even for something which seemed as obvious as Rhaegar and Lyanna many people did give counter evidence for that not happening. Which is fine. The author is not supposed to make things too obvious. Even in the red wedding foreshadowing , Sandor using the term "bloody wedding" which is just a grammatical thing like my foreshadowing 2,  Even the house of undying foreshadowing with Robb with a wolf's head does not clearly foreshadow it. Its only when we look back that it become obvious. Though it does add to the feeling of suspicion.

Arya's foreshadowings too add to the feeling of suspicion. Why is Ned talking about king with Arya rather than lord? Does he expect to kill Joffrey and get Arya married with Tommen? Why did the author with full consciousness write it? Why does the author use queens rather than queen? Could he not just say father to a queen?  For both these suspicions I dont need the show. What does the author mean when he talks about a 12 year old conqueror? Was he just jesting?  Why did the author have to talk about a crown when Alys is being compared to Arya? Did he need to? Why did he in the same page compare Willow to Arya and then talk about her as a queen? All these suspicions do not require the show.  

Why has the author named her wolf Nymeria? My foreshadowings are not necessarily foreshadowings but question which you can answer.

It would be interesting to see whether he has used a methaporical crown for someone else who is not compared with Arya (I dont mean a real crown but these indirect things) Like if he tends to use it with a lot of other people , then sure it may reduce the strength of my foreshadowing. 

Just to be clear I think Jon will win the iron throne (evidence in my signature) but Arya will rule as his queen as the wording was "You will marry a king" 

For whatever its worth, I was a softcore Jon Sansa shipper once. But when I saw Jon-Arya evidence and the outline, I began thinking about it Ie I am willing to change my wishes if evidence contradicts.

*squealing* I'm so glad you're posting regularly again. I feel like I just ate a bunch of rainbows after reading your replies and all your great metas. Now if only ashotofjac (TyrionTLannister is such a great new addition offering great debates!) if she would join this forum as well....   She just did a great Jon/Rhaegar analysis. 

[Arya-Jon]

26 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

GRRM said in the outline that only 5 characters would survive to the last book. Back then, he only had 8 POV characters, the 5 main characters plus Ned, Cat, and Sansa. Even if he's upgraded her to main character, doesn't that imply Sansa will eventually die, assuming the ending has stayed the same since 1991? 

The parallels between Tyrion, Jon, and Dany are numerous and extremely specific. Their mothers died in childbirth, they lived in the shadow of their older brothers, they killed their lovers, they're the third children of their fathers, etc. I don't think trust or betrayal is relevant in this case.

It would also create a nice symmetry. The six main characters are Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, and Sansa. Three of them (Jon, Dany, and Tyrion) are the heads of the dragon, and the other three are the surviving Stark children (Arya, Bran, and Sansa).

I think there are quite some hints for Tyrion becoming an anti-villan like in the outline . 

Quote

Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.

Why is he snarling?

In the outline Tyrion falls in one sided love with Arya and probably admires her and helps dispose Jaime. Here he may be helping depose Cersei and falling in one sided love/lust with Dany. I am pretty sure he would initially worship her/be touched by her like in the show. Show season 6 spoilers coming. Have covered it.

Spoiler

Clearly Daario wont be the last to love her as Tyrion says with an completely touched expression in the last episode of season 6. Dany replies about the fact that she felt nothing when she refuses him. That this scares her. Is not turning down by Arya the whole idea behind Tyrion Jon rivaly in the outline Plus Grrm knew a lot abt their paths from the begining

Either ways this discussion could move to this thread where there are lot of other hints.

 

But I do agree that what you are saying makes sense too. All their mothers dying. Maybe its applicable to only dragon riding? Or maybe secret targaryen heritage? Or maybe all three deaths were important for plot purposes and were just co incidence. Mother dying is very important to how Tywin treats him and shapes his arc. Like not all deaths  happened among salt and smoke. Only Jon's happened in violence. Dany's in sea shore. And Jon's mother died from a fever and not immediately childbirth like Tyrion's did.

But its possible the song of ice and fire and three heads are separate prophesies as you seem to imply.

 Btw, have you noticed that the last two letters and exactly the last two letters  of all three names match

As in Jon-Aegon

        Arya-Visenya

        Daenerys- Rhaenys

 

[a black swan]

45 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Yeah time is a problem , which is why i think Dany will be the only one to give Jon a kid. But of course Jon and Arya can end up together and have a child together after the series end. It would be sweet if we got a ADOS epilogue with Jon and Aryas kid as POV.

as @DutchArya mentioned both Arya and Rhaenys wanted to explore the lands beyond the Sunset sea . I would be satisfied with a ending where Arya just leaves Westeros . 

Great point about an epilogue showing their futures unravelled. Which links perfectly with @Arya-Jon previous case about the Daniel Abraham's quote about a line of dialogue he changed for the graphic novels that George warned him to change back as it would foreshadow the ending of ADOS. Both Daniel and George are friends and live in the same neighbourhood! Lets just say Dan listens to George where others may have not. *cough* D&D*cough*. 

So I wonder....

Bran (who lives an unnaturally long life) will be able to watch the world and see the descendants of the Starks and other great Houses. In this case, Arya’s children who go on to live and serve their roles in Westerosi society: Princes, Lords, Knights and maybe even a High Septon as Ned alluded to. In the epilogue, we might see a glimpse into the future where they might look back on their dead mother’s tomb, the one with a stone statue of a direwolf at her feet and a sharp needle in her hand - and remember how different she was.

Bittersweet.