faroresdragn

What started the war between the Starks and the Lannisters?

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So I just finished the chapter where Ser Davos sails the red woman under the wall of Storm's End, and she gives birth to that weird shadow baby. I dont know why youd have to go that far into the book to answer my question but no spoilers please.

So I waited a little too long after finishing AGOT before startin ACOK so things are a little fuzzy, and I dont want to reread the whole first book just to get this.

I cannot for the life of me remember what actually inspired the starks and lannisters to go to war. Obviously, I know that Catelyn held Tyrion prisoner at the Eyrie for a while, and that Joffrey did Ned Stark really dirty, but is that the entire reason for their war? It seems like that's not enough. My brain keeps trying to convince me that it has something to do with joffrey not being roberts true heir, but I know it cant be that because Ned never actually got to tell anyone that before he was killed. By the end of book one, the only people who actually know about Cersei and Jamie are the two themselves, Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, and Grand Maester Pycell. so that cant be a motivation for either side. 

The most obvious reason that comes to mind for the Starks wanting to go to war would be to avenge the murder of Ned, since they all know theres no way he could actually be guilty of treason. Which if it was would be pretty weak. I know that Ned was a good guy - the best guy - and we as the readers know that his death was unjust, but they didnt know that for sure, so the entire force of the north would be marching to war on the principle that ned stark was probably innocent. 

The other problem with that is that I think the timing didnt match up anyway. I know that news of ned starks death reached winterfell right after bran and rickon had that prophetic dream about it, and when the raven came, the bran was the first one the maester told about it, so Im pretty sure that at that point, Robb had already gone south. so that couldnt have been his motivation. 

Without Neds death, I cant think of anything the southerners did that would force Robb to call his banners. Unless he called them just because they had his father prisoner? Or maybe because Jaime killed Ned's personal guard? I guess I could see that if they murdered his whole guard and improsoned the head Stark that that could be enough to inspire them to call the banners, but I have the feeling Im forgetting something. 

And I also dont know why the Lannisters are doing what theyre doing. Its pretty clear that Tywin isnt listening to anything Cersei or Joffrey are saying, so that mean that his entire motivation to call the entire Lannister host to war is because catelyn held tyrion prisoner for a few days, gave him a fair trail for a crime she thought he committed, and when he proved hiumself innocent, let him go without harming him? Oh shit, better call the banners, start killing Riverrun, and set the entire f***ing riverland on fire. Seems like kind of an overreaction. Maybe that is the whole reason? Tywin is an overly proud man right? but what the hell did riverrun do to deserve getting attacked and burned? "oh a stark held my so captive in the vale of arryn? better kill the Tullys!" I cant believe that he sent them all to attack riverrun just to get revenge on catlyns family for what she did. And again, If I rememeber right, the lannisters started raping the riverlands way before the starks did anything, Because Ned stark sent out that group to stop Gregor from raping the riverlands while he was still alive and unimprisoned. So what do the Lannisters have against the Tullys? 

 

None of it makes sense to me. Could anyone refresh me?

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21 hours ago, faroresdragn said:

I cannot for the life of me remember what actually inspired the starks and lannisters to go to war.

As with most wars there are many reasons to go to war:

  • The Starks and Lannisters disliked each other and they didn't trust each other
  • Cersei Lannister cuckolded Robert Baratheon (this is a mostly unknown fact)
  • Lysa Arryn (née Tully) wrote Catelyn a letter in which she stated that the Lannisters killed her husband Jon Arryn, Hand of the King. Cat tells Ned about the letter.
  • After Bran fell from the Tower, Some southerner attacked Bran with a Valyrian Steel Dagger, Cat and Summer save him, Cat went south to investigate
  • Littlefinger told Ned and Catelyn that the Valyrian Steel Dagger that was used in the attack on Bran's life belonged to Tyrion Lannister.

All these things happened in relative secrecy without many witnesses.

  • Tyrion Lannister gets captured by Catelyn at the Inn of the Crossroad: beginning of open hostilities
  • In retaliation Jaime Lannister attacks Ned in KL and both houses lose guardsmen
  • Furthermore Tywin Lannister sends out Gregor Clegane who raids the Riverlands
  • Edmure Tully spreads his forces thin along the border to prevent further raids, which allows the Lannisters to defeat them piecemeal and to capture Edmure
21 hours ago, faroresdragn said:

and that Joffrey did Ned Stark really dirty, but is that the entire reason for their war?

The most obvious reason that comes to mind for the Starks wanting to go to war would be to avenge the murder of Ned, since they all know theres no way he could actually be guilty of treason. Which if it was would be pretty weak. I know that Ned was a good guy - the best guy - and we as the readers know that his death was unjust, but they didnt know that for sure, so the entire force of the north would be marching to war on the principle that ned stark was probably innocent.

Without Neds death, I cant think of anything the southerners did that would force Robb to call his banners. Unless he called them just because they had his father prisoner?

Ned Starks confronts Cersei about her kids, this leads Cersei to kill Robert Baratheon.

With Littlefingers help Cersei imprisons Ned(and Sansa and Jeyne Poole and claims Arya as well) and accuses Ned of treason, the rest of the northmen in KL are killed. Then she orders Robb, Renly, Stannis and a lot of other lords to come to Kingslanding to swear fealty to Joffrey Baratheon.

This leads to Robb calling the banners, he knows that he will not get out of KL alive if he goes there, he does not believe that Ned is a traitor and he does know that he can only hope to trade Ned's life if he takes some Lannisters captive.

Catelyn AGOT: “I...” He turned his head away, to hide the first tear. “If we march... even if we win... the Lannisters hold Sansa, and Father. They’ll kill them, won’t they?”
“They want us to think so.”
“You mean they’re lying?”
“I do not know, Robb. What I do know is that you have no choice. If you go to King’s Landing and swear fealty, you will never be allowed to leave. If you turn your tail and retreat to Winterfell, your lords will lose all respect for you. Some may even go over to the Lannisters. Then the queen, with that much less to fear, can do as she likes with her prisoners. Our best hope, our only true hope, is that you can defeat the foe in the field. If you should chance to take Lord Tywin or the Kingslayer captive, why then a trade might very well be possible, but that is not the heart of it. So long as you have power enough that they must fear you, Ned and your sister should be safe. Cersei is wise enough to know that she may need them to make her peace, should the fighting go against her.”

Ned's murder wasn't the reason for the war, since by the time of his death the war was already on. Robb receives the message of Ned's death after he frees Riverrun from Jaime's attack. But Ned's execution at a holy place ends all possible peace treaties between Robb and Joffrey.

“Peace?” Tyrion swirled his wine thoughtfully, took a deep draft, and hurled his empty cup to the floor, where it shattered into a thousand pieces. “There’s your peace, Ser Harys. My sweet nephew broke it for good and all when he decided to ornament the Red Keep with Lord Eddard’s head. You’ll have an easier time drinking wine from that cup than you will convincing Robb Stark to make peace now. He’s winning... or hadn’t you noticed?”

From Tyrions last chapter in AGOT

 

Edited by Bironic

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20 hours ago, faroresdragn said:

And I also dont know why the Lannisters are doing what theyre doing.

Its pretty clear that Tywin isnt listening to anything Cersei or Joffrey are saying, so that mean that his entire motivation to call the entire Lannister host to war is because catelyn held tyrion prisoner for a few days, gave him a fair trail for a crime she thought he committed, and when he proved hiumself innocent, let him go without harming him?

Oh shit, better call the banners, start killing Riverrun, and set the entire f***ing riverland on fire.

Seems like kind of an overreaction. Maybe that is the whole reason? Tywin is an overly proud man right?

but what the hell did riverrun do to deserve getting attacked and burned?

"oh a stark held my so captive in the vale of arryn? better kill the Tullys!"

I cant believe that he sent them all to attack riverrun just to get revenge on catlyns family for what she did. And again, If I rememeber right, the lannisters started raping the riverlands way before the starks did anything, Because Ned stark sent out that group to stop Gregor from raping the riverlands while he was still alive and unimprisoned. So what do the Lannisters have against the Tullys? 

First the trial wasn't fair by any means. Second Lysa Arryn (née Tully) sets Tyrion free on the mountain road with only a sellsword to guard him, after almost all of Cat's party got killed on that same road. Lysa was poised to kill Tyrion no matter what the outcome of the trial was. The mountain road was a death sentence. I agree though that none of this was Catelyn Starks (née Tully) doing.

Yes Tywn is very, very proud.

Second if you let someone imprison your own son with impunity, what'll they do next? Kidnap your wife? Steal your gold? Rape your daughter? Execute your brother on whatever grounds they find? Both your enemies as well as your bannermen lose all respect for you, if you don't react. And when they lose respect of you, you will suffer more and more. This is a medieval world, not modern society.

“Kind of you to go to war for me,” he said as he climbed into a chair and helped himself to a cup of his father’s ale.
“By my lights, it was you who started this,” Lord Tywin replied. “Your brother Jaime would never have meekly submitted to capture at the hands of a woman.”
“That’s one way we differ, Jaime and I. He’s taller as well, you may have noticed.”
His father ignored the sally. “The honor of our House was at stake. I had no choice but to ride. No man sheds Lannister blood with impunity...”
“Hear Me Roar, “ Tyrion said, grinning. The Lannister words. “Truth be told, none of my blood was actually shed, although it was a close thing once or twice. Morrec and Jyck were killed.”
Tyrion AGOT

Tywin didn't know that Cat took Tyrion to the Eyrie, Cat said to all the witnesses at the Inn, that she brings him to Winterfell. Winterfell is to far away for Tywin to reach, Riverrun is nearby and if he gets his hand on some Tullys he can trade them for his son. The Tullys are also Cat's family.

 

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Adding to bironic answers.

- Last time starks were summoned at court, a after one of their own was held eldcaptive they didn't survived.

- Lannisters were aerys II last minute betrayers during robert rebellion. One became kingslayer and the others had children kkilled they could not be trusted.

- Ned stark sent message to stannis as soon as he learnt about the bastard and stannis spread the news in all westeros.

- Joffrey not only illegitimate,  but also weak and cruel, on top of killing Ned.they didn't want to serve him.

- They manage to get rid of the mad king once. So it could. E done again isn't?

 

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Thanks for the very thorough answers. All of this is coming back to me now. 

1 hour ago, naossano said:

- Ned stark sent message to stannis as soon as he learnt about the bastard and stannis spread the news in all westeros.

I thought for sure that Cersei had Ned killed before that message could be sent. Didnt Ned give that message to one of his guard telling him to hand it directly to Stannis himself, but then that guard was killed before he could leave KL? 

I was under the impression that Stannis was the original guy who suspected that Joffrey wasnt legitimate (other than Tyrion), and he  was the one who told shared his suspicions with Jon Arryn, and he hightailed it to Dragonstone after Jon Arryn was iced to save his own tail. I think the story was that no one loved stannis, not even Robert, so he wanted someone who Robert actually loved, like Jon Arryn, to give him the news so hed actually listen.

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His household was murdered only after Ned publicly defied joffrey rule. They wouldn't have killed the messenger before.
 

For all her flaws, cersei would have allowed Ned to live if he bent the knees to joffrey, instead of saying he has no claim.

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18 hours ago, faroresdragn said:

Thanks for the very thorough answers. All of this is coming back to me now. 

I thought for sure that Cersei had Ned killed before that message could be sent. Didnt Ned give that message to one of his guard telling him to hand it directly to Stannis himself, but then that guard was killed before he could leave KL? 

I was under the impression that Stannis was the original guy who suspected that Joffrey wasnt legitimate (other than Tyrion), and he  was the one who told shared his suspicions with Jon Arryn, and he hightailed it to Dragonstone after Jon Arryn was iced to save his own tail. I think the story was that no one loved stannis, not even Robert, so he wanted someone who Robert actually loved, like Jon Arryn, to give him the news so hed actually listen.

Yes the messenger was killed, he never reached Stannis.

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I am in the middle of ACOK, and I think the answer is really simple. When Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion, the Lannisters started marching North. That's the reason Robb moves south calling the Stark banners. Ned wasn't dead by then; Jaime kills his guard. Nor did Ned know of Joffrey's inheritance.

 

However, the war certainly got worse with Ned's death. If I'm not wrong, this is the sequence of cause-effect events:

1. Catelyn gets a letter from Lysa, accusing the Lannisters of murdering Jon Arryn

2. Someone attempts to murder Bran, fails and leaves behind a dagger of Valyrian steel. 

3. Catelyn, suspecting the Lannisters because of Lysa's letter, goes to King's Landing to know the truth of it

4. Littlefinger tells her that the dagger belonged to Tyrion Lannister

5. Catelyn travels back to Winterfell, and by happenstance, comes across Tyrion in the inn at the crossroads

6. She kidnaps him and goes to the Vale

7. The Lannisters call their banners and march from Casterly Rock to the riverlands

8. Robb marches south to defend, starting a full-fledged war

 

All other events happen only after this sequence. Please correct me if I'm wrong?

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I guess war was inevitable from the point where Eddard openly denied Joffrey his claim to the throne and spilled the truth of him being the incestuous offspring between Cersei and Jaimie. If Ned would've just kept his mouth shut and declared Joffrey for king, Sansa would still be betrothed to Joffrey and matters would be solved. Sansa would be safe at KL and Ned could go home and live out the rest of his days at Winterfell. Small price for keeping your mouth shut.

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There had been animosity between House Stark and House Lannister since the sack of King Landing and the deaths of Elia and her children.  Then add to the fact Jamie had betrayed Aerys and he made no secret of what he thought should happen to him.  All that had built up over the years and Littlefinger seizing upon all this mistrust just kept pushing and pushing.  What kept this from happening sooner was basically the Starks stayed in the North and the Lannisters stayed west and south they were away from eachother then Robert offering the handship to Ned brought these side together and eventually something was going to happen.

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