Let's Figure Out The Mormonts

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The Targs didn't land at Kings Landing, Kings Landing landed on them!

 

Lan the Clevar took it from the Casterlys.  The speculation is he used the sewers, which Tyrion is familiar with.

 

As I said, I couldn't make this stuff up.   I thought it was BC and AC too until I started looking at other people's timelines.  Hey, maybe it's exclusively a timeline thing?   If so I apologize and stand corrected.  Arya, you have no idea what i put into this stupid timeline.   It's a true tragedy.   

[black_hart]

A few questions I have reg. the Mormonts:

1) How did it happen a slave trader was in the area for Jorah Mormont to start slaving? (Chance, plot hole, bound further north?)

2) Who are the "bears-husbands" of the Lady Mormonts?

3) Where is Maege Mormont, will she play a part in TWoW?

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, black_hart said:

A few questions I have reg. the Mormonts:

1) How did it happen a slave trader was in the area for Jorah Mormont to start slaving? (Chance, plot hole, bound further north?)

2) Who are the "bears-husbands" of the Lady Mormonts?

3) Where is Maege Mormont, will she play a part in TWoW?

Hi & welcome, black_hart.   To your very interesting questions I'm willing to field a few guesses if you will keep in mind they are only guesses.  I do hope we get some real answers in the last books to come. 

1.  As a lord on a rather remote island Jorah would have probably had information about all sorts of traders.   In the very 1st topic I participated in regarding the Mormont's wealth it was supposed that the Mormonts had to rely on trade to get the things they needed like metals or spices. Mormonts had to have plenty of access to their own natural resources which I imagine are furs more than anything.  Like any commerce these traders are probably into a little of this and a little of that.   Those slave traders didn't have to have an entire boat load of slaves or even specialize in slave trade to be interested in taking a couple of men.  Maybe more of "hey, do you know where I can unload these dastardly poachers" sort of deal where the "department store" traders happened to have an interest or connection in slaving.   

2.  Alysanne is pretty vocal about bears being the Mormont women's husbands.  But we already see there are men on Bear Island in Jeor and Jorah and Alysanne's own little 2 year-old boy.   Perhaps the men aren't as distinguished as Maege and her girls in the current time and perhaps many of them died marching with Robb?   Remember, Bear Island is a relatively small place.   There just can't be that many people there is my thinking.   

3.  I really hope Maege is still alive.   Maybe safely tucked away in the neck recovering from some injury or illness, maybe plotting a Grand Northern Conspiracy.   The Iron Born have so vexed the North it's hard for me to believe she's just hanging out in some council while the strongholds of the North are invaded.   I hope she's alive, but it's hard to really hang on to that considering her character as such a fierce warrior is so far out of things when her strength is so badly needed.   Then again we don't really know what mission she was sent on, what Robb's instructions were so I guess we will just have to wait.    One thing I am certain of, if Maege is alive and well, she will have lots to do in the books to come.   

Hope that helps.   Surely you have some ideas about your own questions?   What is your thinking on these things? 

[black_hart]

On 19.11.2016 at 3:28 PM, Curled Finger said:

Hope that helps.   Surely you have some ideas about your own questions?   What is your thinking on these things? 

Along similar lines. I wish I could point to some grand conspiracy behind the trade ship, but alas... none appears. Lynesse ends in Lys not Tyrosh after all.

The "bear-husbands" are more curious. They are basically subverting the social order in some way (children born out of wedlock being bastards and marriage in nobility requires status etc.) with this fancy bear excuse. But who are the bears, really? (Local men, wildlings, or maybe the story is not a lame excuse but true )

And yes, I hope for Maege (and Robb's testament) to resurface.

[Raisin' Bran]

58 minutes ago, black_hart said:

The "bear-husbands" are more curious. They are basically subverting the social order in some way (children born out of wedlock being bastards and marriage in nobility requires status etc.) with this fancy bear excuse. But who are the bears, really? (Local men, wildlings, or maybe the story is not a lame excuse but true )

Tormund does call himself "Husband to Bears".

[theblackdragonI]

I've always imagined that the first Mormont was a champion or close companion of Beron Stark and was granted Bear Island for his service as well as being a tough warrior with a Valyrian Steel sword. 

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, black_hart said:

Along similar lines. I wish I could point to some grand conspiracy behind the trade ship, but alas... none appears. Lynesse ends in Lys not Tyrosh after all.

The "bear-husbands" are more curious. They are basically subverting the social order in some way (children born out of wedlock being bastards and marriage in nobility requires status etc.) with this fancy bear excuse. But who are the bears, really? (Local men, wildlings, or maybe the story is not a lame excuse but true )

And yes, I hope for Maege (and Robb's testament) to resurface.

Nice.    Then you got me thinking...

3 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Tormund does call himself "Husband to Bears".

About THIS!   Which led me straight to Varamyr with a little Hodor in the back of my thoughts.  Can't be coincidence that a family so close to North of the Wall and a warrior who lived north of the wall have these tales.   Varamyr is told during his training that's its an abomination to mate as a wolf while "in warg".  

Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all.  ADWD Prologue

But what if it's not an abomination?   Something only strong skinchangers can actually do?  Every post just strengthens my thinking that the Mormonts are magical. 

1 hour ago, theblackdragonI said:

 

dammit I jumped the gun, sorry...

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

I've always imagined that the first Mormont was a champion or close companion of Beron Stark and was granted Bear Island for his service as well as being a tough warrior with a Valyrian Steel sword. 

That's not a bad jump to reason at all.   My only sticking point with The Starks giving The Mormonts a VS sword is that we don't know that The Starks even had one.   Then again we don't know they didn't, we only see The Starks getting their own sword about a hundred years later. Still, there was some reason The Mormonts were given Bear Island.    I'm thinking their ferocity had to figure large in that because the Iron Born were forever invading that whole area.   I hate it that we get nada on this deal outside it happened.    

[Raisin' Bran]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Nice.    Then you got me thinking...

About THIS!   Which led me straight to Varamyr with a little Hodor in the back of my thoughts.  Can't be coincidence that a family so close to North of the Wall and a warrior who lived north of the wall have these tales.   Varamyr is told during his training that's its an abomination to mate as a wolf while "in warg".  

Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all.  ADWD Prologue

But what if it's not an abomination?   Something only strong skinchangers can actually do?  Every post just strengthens my thinking that the Mormonts are magical. 

Not quite what I was getting at. My thought process was more metaphorical with the events less magical and more mundane. 

Lannisters are often referred to as lions, while Starks are often called wolves. Even Dany will refer to Jorah as "my bear". It is not a big stretch to think that Mormonts in general will be referred to as bears.

Tormund is possibly one of a few men who have fathered Mormont children. The fact that Alysane Mormont says that she and her family are skinchangers who literally change into bears and mate with wild bears is only to create a sense of mystery about her family. It seems that though many do not know the in's and out's of skinchanging, that is a bald faced lie.

We only have POV accounts from Bran and Varamyr about them warging their wolves. Though the wolves eat, Bran and Varamyr are not sustained by what the wolves eat. I would guess that the same physiological limits put on Bran and Varamyr also would translate to other animals while skinchanged. This includes mating.

Just a question about your thought process, when Haggon states that this and that are abominations, what does that mean to you?

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Not quite what I was getting at. My thought process was more metaphorical with the events less magical and more mundane. 

Lannisters are often referred to as lions, while Starks are often called wolves. Even Dany will refer to Jorah as "my bear". It is not a big stretch to think that Mormonts in general will be referred to as bears.

Tormund is possibly one of a few men who have fathered Mormont children. The fact that Alysane Mormont says that she and her family are skinchangers who literally change into bears and mate with wild bears is only to create a sense of mystery about her family. It seems that though many do not know the in's and out's of skinchanging, that is a bald faced lie.

We only have POV accounts from Bran and Varamyr about them warging their wolves. Though the wolves eat, Bran and Varamyr are not sustained by what the wolves eat. I would guess that the same physiological limits put on Bran and Varamyr also would translate to other animals while skinchanged. This includes mating.

Just a question about your thought process, when Haggon states that this and that are abominations, what does that mean to you?

Ha, excellent question.  For me abomination is a block, taboo.  A thing that is known and practiced but not accepted.  Varamyr thinks a lot of his powers and seems to believe Haggon was holding him back.  Maybe he was and maybe Varamyr was right.   There is much talk of cannibalism in ADWD.   I think it's a really good illustration of when cannibalism cannot be considered an abomination when the Northmen with Stannis eat their dead.   They are all starving to death.   This isn't something they would normally do.  They are in extraordinary circumstances.   I am a fricking vegetarian.   Always have been and always will be.  I would starve to death before this would happen, but I imagine I would starve to death before I would eat a deer or elk, too.    Flesh isn't my thing.   However, if I thought for 2 seconds someone I loved or was responsible for could live or take nourishment from flesh of any animal you bet I would give it to them.   I imagine that act alone, giving the flesh, would be the crime of cannibalism on me even if I didn't eat it.    I am ambivalent about virtual sex.  I'm pretty sure the mind f*cking I've enjoyed isn't exactly the same thing Bran does to Hodor but Bran is able to control things in Hodor.    This is a gift to both characters storywise.    Would I want someone in my head like that?   I think not.  Still these characters are together in this situation and it appears that Hodor is designed to be Bran's vehicle.   Bran's intentions and knowledge are paramount to our judgement of his actions.   Is it abomination if Bran doesn't understand?   

You made good points about the "bears" who father our Mormont children.  I do think these people are magical to some extent.  Still your points are well made.   

[LynnS]

I have this strange notion that the Mormonts are descendants of Joramun and this is why they were gifted with Bear Island; it's rustic great house; befitting the memory of the old king beyond the Wall.  Perhaps, Longclaw comes with the Mormont's from the time of the Night's King by way of Joramun.  Although that doesn't fit with the timelines but what does?

If this is the case; it may be that the Joramun was a wildling fathered by a man of the night's watch who grew up at the wall and then returned to the wildlings at some point; along the lines of Mance Rayder.  Perhaps there's even some Stark bloodline in there somewhere.

Joer, Jorah, Joramun and there was a king Jorah Stark in the tombs of Winterfell. 

 

[The Fallen]

Valyrian swords are valuable now because no more can be made,thus making them scarce and raising the value.

But before the Doom, these swords were still being produced and not as rare as they are now. According to Martin, there are 100s of these swords in Westeros, many with houses that have fallen on hard times and others that were never wealthy, but still were able to afford a Valyrian sword centuries before. I guess due to prestige none of them want to part with their swords.

[estermonty python]

On 11/24/2016 at 6:34 AM, LynnS said:

I have this strange notion that the Mormonts are descendants of Joramun and this is why they were gifted with Bear Island; it's rustic great house; befitting the memory of the old king beyond the Wall.  Perhaps, Longclaw comes with the Mormont's from the time of the Night's King by way of Joramun.  Although that doesn't fit with the timelines but what does?

If this is the case; it may be that the Joramun was a wildling fathered by a man of the night's watch who grew up at the wall and then returned to the wildlings at some point; along the lines of Mance Rayder.  Perhaps there's even some Stark bloodline in there somewhere.

Joer, Jorah, Joramun and there was a king Jorah Stark in the tombs of Winterfell. 

 

Let's put Longclaw aside for a moment , because I agree that seems to be an entirely separate discussion.

 

But I never, ever considered that Joramun could have been the original Mormont - that makes SO much sense!  I'm totally with you on the name thing, and let's remember that Joramun joined forces with Brandon the Breaker to defeat the Night's King.  In consideration for his service, Joramun is given lands and titles south of the Wall - this is no different than what Jon does with House Thenn.  In fact - it's exactly the same, and makes a neat, purposeful parallel.  It also explains why House Mormont springs up out of nowhere, and never really grows in power or prestige.  

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Let's put Longclaw aside for a moment , because I agree that seems to be an entirely separate discussion.

 

But I never, ever considered that Joramun could have been the original Mormont - that makes SO much sense!  I'm totally with you on the name thing, and let's remember that Joramun joined forces with Brandon the Breaker to defeat the Night's King.  In consideration for his service, Joramun is given lands and titles south of the Wall - this is no different than what Jon does with House Thenn.  In fact - it's exactly the same, and makes a neat, purposeful parallel.  It also explains why House Mormont springs up out of nowhere, and never really grows in power or prestige.  

It seems to me that Joer went to the Wall of his own accord.  Having reached a point in his life when it was time to turn over the lordship to his son.  Jorah's dishonor didn't occur until after Joer went to the Wall.  There is also a Jorah and Jono Stark in the crypts of Winterfell.  Father and son?  Perhaps Joer knows more about his family tree and his connection to the Starks than we've been told and joining the brotherhood is an honorable duty a part of their heritage if you will.  Puts a different twist on Joer giving Jon the family sword.     

[estermonty python]

On 11/18/2016 at 11:23 PM, Curled Finger said:

Not VS, but absolutely bitchen, we gotta consider Dawn.   I don't know how it fits in (there I opened the door for all the Lightbringer folks to come in and straighten us out) but since you see things much the way I see them, we gotta have 12 + 1 swords.   THL + A dozen companions, right?   So yah, maybe Dawn fits into that group because I sure don't see anywhere else another magic sword fits in.   Dude, I could read what you're laying down for days.   I don't often run across readers who see the math and what it all adds up to.   I've been told more than once to pay attention to the 2nd sons in this story and you gave me the best illumination yet.   For all it's worth my buddy @Seamsmakes a pretty compelling case for Truth in Dorne.   Remember, this sword is listed as a Westerosi sword.  It's somewhere in Westeros, I'm sure about that.   It is the math that my timeline strives to illustrate.   3 original swords are gone.   They aren't coming back.  Truth was added to the mix and Ice was made into 2 swords.   Not 1 bad ass greatsword like Brightroar but 2 smaller blades.   Interesting move by Tywin.   

I'm totally on board with your secondary house placements.   It's interesting to study the dynamics of the houses in each region as they relate to each other in an effort to figure out why the swords landed where they did.  Longclaw was settled in for 100 years before Ice was commissioned.  Lamentation was holding down the Vale for 100 years before Lady Forlorn moved in.  We don't know when Red Rain landed in the Westerlands, but it was the 2nd sword.  The Tarlys are so far removed from the Hightowers they are almost in separate regions yet there is Heartsbane holding down the Reach well before the wealthiest family in the Reach got Vigilance.   It's weird and doesn't add up at all.   Hell the Targs were doing business with The Hightowers before anyone else we know of.   It is weird.     

So was Longclaw the original award because a brave Mormont was either TLH or a companion?  I think so.  It's the only thing that makes sense to me how these people even got VS.  Ditto for Tarly.    If there were lots and lots of requests for VS maybe there was a code to how the Valyrians awarded swords.  Too many people could have afforded VS.   The Tarbecks, Manderlys, Martells, Tyrells, Baratheons, Arryns--there were plenty of rich folks.  How about the Celtigars or Velaryons?  Not even all the Valyrians could score swords, but the Mormonts and Tarlys could?  

I commented inside your reply with my own sword math.   Those swords keep adding up to 12 once the Targs really joined the realm.   There are periods of inequity when only 10 swords or 11 swords are around, but they always end up being replaced.   So I'm absolutely 100% with you on your ideas about our magic swords and who knows?   Maybe our Mormonts are magical, too.   OK maybe they are merely legendary, but they are a whole lot more than what they appear to be. 

We just don't know enough about the Rogares to know what happened to Truth.  It was with Moredo Rogare after the death of Lysandro and Drazenko, and Lysaro was killed before Moredo - that makes Moredo the last male Rogare we know of.  If it passed through his sister's line, it would have been inherited by the Targs directly through Aegon the Unworthy, who would have been Moredo's nephew.  It seems unlikely that a third VS sword was floating around at that time, though, as the records are pretty good and its never mentioned.  If the Rogares followed strict primogeniture and women couldn't inherit, however, then presumably the sword would go to his uncle's line, if he had any heirs - and if he did, they would be Martells.  So that would support the theory that Truth is in Dorne.  

I guess the thing I have trouble with is that some of these 12 swords are mentioned so little that I have a hard time believing they are going to be essential to the endgame.  Maybe they'll all pop up one by one at the end, but I dunno.  The only way I could see it happening is if Euron really does conduct a full scale invasion of the reach and ends up with Orphan-Maker, Heartsbane, and Vigilance to go along with Nightfall and Red Rain.  That would at least provide a distribution point whereby, if defeated, the conquerors would then have access to those swords to fight the real enemy. Alternatively, Sam being a Tarly and being in the same city as Vigilance could play a role.  I could also see Rodrik the Reader passing Nightfall on to Asha (or Theon, I guess) if they ever reunite.  Obviously Sansa would have to get hold of Lady Forlorn somehow

[estermonty python]

58 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It seems to me that Joer went to the Wall of his own accord.  Having reached a point in his life when it was time to turn over the lordship to his son.  Jorah's dishonor didn't occur until after Joer went to the Wall.  There is also a Jorah and Jono Stark in the crypts of Winterfell.  Father and son?  Perhaps Joer knows more about his family tree and his connection to the Starks than we've been told and joining the brotherhood is an honorable duty a part of their heritage if you will.  Puts a different twist on Joer giving Jon the family sword.     

Except if Jeor knows he is descended from Joramun, I'm not sure why he wants to sign up to fight wildlings...

[LynnS]

Just now, estermonty python said:

Except if Jeor knows he is descended from Joramun, I'm not sure why he wants to sign up to fight wildlings...

He seems to know more about the lore of the CotF and the WW than we might suppose.  I'd have to check through the Mormont specific text; but Ned tells Jon there is honor serving at the NW.  Perhaps he is thinking of Mormont and Benjen.  Mormont may have gone to the watch as an honorable duty something that goes back to the time when the character of the watch was honorable and their purpose other than warring with the wildlings.  Mormont knows that the Watch wasn't what it used to be; that the brothers are recruited from dungeons and whorehouses.  The Watch wasn't always that way.  The Shieldhall is an indication of it's past character.

Quote

Hundreds of knights meant hundreds of shields. Hawks and eagles, dragons and griffins, suns and stags, wolves and wyverns, manticores, bulls, trees and flowers, harps, spears, crabs and krakens, red lions and golden lions and chequy lions, owls, lambs, maids and mermen, stallions, stars, buckets and buckles, flayed men and hanged men and burning men, axes, longswords, turtles, unicorns, bears, quills, spiders and snakes and scorpions, and a hundred other heraldic charges had adorned the Shieldhall walls, blazoned in more colors than any rainbow ever dreamed of.- westeros wiki

     

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 11/18/2016 at 3:57 PM, Curled Finger said:

Yes, I'm aware who Elio Garcia is, I just thought it was timely to find him posting under his own name on another site only a year ago. It didn't make me feel any better seeing so many others operating under the same assumption.   Where the heck did we get that idea anyway?

I think it came from Elio in the first place. He mentioned that they got the Bolton and Dayne words from GRRM, but GRRM had not been confident with the Dayne ones. After that Elio made a joke about the words revealing too much. Apparently not everyone got it was meant as a joke, and it spread like wildfire.