Stiles_of_the_Vale Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I'm new to the forum, so I don't know if this has already been discussed. But recently, I started reading the books again and I could not help but notice Ned's confession of treason had some odd wording. "I am Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King,... and i come before you to confess my treason in the sight of gods and men... I betrayed the faith of my king and the trust of my friend, Robert... I swore to defend and protect his children, yet before his blood was cold, I plotted to dispose and murder his son and seize the throne for myself. Let the High Septon and Baelor the Beloved and the Seven bear witness to the truth of what I say: Joffrey Baratheon is the one true heir to the Iron Throne, an by the grace of all the gods, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm" (GOT). It took me a few times reading and listening (audiobooks) before I realized Ned was swearing to gods he had no tie to. Obviously, everything he said was a lie and anyone who knew him would know that. But wasn't it common knowledge that the Starks and the Northerns worshiped the Old Gods? Or was that not well known to the common folk? Also, he never really mentions the old gods, which is odd since people usually swear "by the old gods and the new." Throughout his speech I felt as though he was using rhetoric typically used with the Faith of the Seven. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Woah! I never noticed this. Great catch! I'm sure his lack of mentioning the Old Gods was intentional. Perhaps he felt that not lying to the Old Gods would not damn him in the afterlife? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxine Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Wow I never noticed or thought about this. It interesting since we all know he was lying. Maybe he made a point of not mentioning the old gods since he didn't want to "confess" a lie to gods he actually acknowledged. I think if Cersei, Varys etc would have thought about it they would have realized this even though I think they would have cared. The confession was all for show so it doesn't much matter if he actually meant it and swore to the right gods. I don't think the average commoner in KL is would've realized that Ned kept the old gods. This was a really cool catch. Obviously since Ned is dead it doesn't affect the plot but still interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 I'm sure the confession he read was written by Cersei. He was at the Sept of Baelor in front of a Southern crowd, it was pandering to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 9 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said: I'm sure the confession he read was written by Cersei. He was at the Sept of Baelor in front of a Southern crowd, it was pandering to them. We already know Ned has a penchant for changing the wording of a key phrase in things dictated to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: We already know Ned has a penchant for changing the wording of a key phrase in things dictated to him. Teeheheeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 I think there must be something more in it than pandering to a Southern crowd. Swearing by the old gods and the new would have been the logical solution if Ned wanted to appease the crowd by mentioning them, and it is a phrase used by followers of both the seven and the old gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShimShim Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 I hadn't really thought about it before. It does seem interesting, you would think as a Northerner he would have said let the Old gods and the new bear witness. Maybe it was meant as a slight hint that he doesn't mean what he is saying. Or like the others stated, it was just something Cersei prepared for him to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia H. Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 It is very probable that Cersei and / or Varys dictated what Ned would have to swear to, but they didn't necessarily prescribe the exact wording of his confession. So, yes, Ned was probably able to choose his words in that moment - who would stop him anyway as long as he was saying that Joffrey was the king? - and indeed, we know he generally knew how to avoid direct lies. In this case, he had to lie, but at least he didn't swear on his own faith and gods. An alternative possibility is that this solution was suggested by Varys so as, on the one hand, to make it easier for Ned and, on the other hand, to be able to use the confession for further manipulation in the future if necessary (after all, Ned was supposed to stay alive, and we know it was not the intention of Varys to keep Joffrey on the throne). On my part, I prefer the explanation that Ned chose his words very carefully. It is completely in character with him, and we see Jon doing something similar later on: He promises Stannis to keep "the wildling princess" under guard, but he does not consider Val a princess. Great catch, @Stiles_of_the_Vale! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 Robert, his King, told him to seek out and kill Dany. Ned told his King "no", and turned in his pin when Robert would have been justified to execute him then and there. maybe Ned accepted the Hand position again before Robert was gored, forget how that sequence went? but i think a lot of Ned disappearing to WF after the Rebellion and not seeing Robert again until present events was a result of Ned KNOWING he would have to tell Robert "no" to many, many, many orders which is treason. and did not want to put Robert in the position of having to decide to execute Ned, his BFF, over Ned's ridiculous morals and insubordination. oh, and that whole thing of raising a Targ baby when his King and BFF was hellbent on extinguising the line. that might have been a factor as well. would not look good when Robert put out the open bounty on Targs and his BFF is raising one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywater-Watch Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 19 hours ago, Stiles_of_the_Vale said: Ned was swearing to gods he had no tie to. Obviously, everything he said was a lie and anyone who knew him would know that. But wasn't it common knowledge that the Starks and the Northerns worshiped the Old Gods? Chapeau! Never paid attention to that. Whether or not the words he had to say were in fact prescribed in detail by Cersei, or whether Ned just had some rough orders like "swearing to the gods": Ned definetely left the old gods out intentionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Mormont Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 Great Catch! Ned obviously did that on purpose so he was not swearing a lie to his gods, but he was so subtle about it that even us readers missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 6 hours ago, Julia H. said: It is very probable that Cersei and / or Varys dictated what Ned would have to swear to, but they didn't necessarily prescribe the exact wording of his confession. So, yes, Ned was probably able to choose his words in that moment - who would stop him anyway as long as he was saying that Joffrey was the king? - and indeed, we know he generally knew how to avoid direct lies. In this case, he had to lie, but at least he didn't swear on his own faith and gods. An alternative possibility is that this solution was suggested by Varys so as, on the one hand, to make it easier for Ned and, on the other hand, to be able to use the confession for further manipulation in the future if necessary (after all, Ned was supposed to stay alive, and we know it was not the intention of Varys to keep Joffrey on the throne). On my part, I prefer the explanation that Ned chose his words very carefully. It is completely in character with him, and we see Jon doing something similar later on: He promises Stannis to keep "the wildling princess" under guard, but he does not consider Val a princess. Great catch, @Stiles_of_the_Vale! I suspect Varys wrote it to give Eddard an out... Quote "What would you have me do?" asked the torchbearer, a stout man in a leather half cape. . . "If one Hand can die, why not a second?" replied the man with the accent and the forked yellow beard. "You have danced the dance before, my friend." . . . "Before is not now, and this Hand is not the other," the scarred man said as they stepped out into the hall. . . . Arya III, Game 32 I love this exchange. When the casual, first-time reader reads this, he understands the Hand in question to be Jon Arryn, and that Varys must have caused Jon Arryn’s death, especially since we just learned that he does not want the new Hand learning about the “twincest,” and we learn as we read, that Jon was killed after learning about the “twincest.” But substitute another Jon, Jon Connington, in for Jon Arryn, and you can see what Illyrio was suggesting: That Varys attempt to co-opt Eddard into their ulterior plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiles_of_the_Vale Posted November 15, 2016 Author Share Posted November 15, 2016 I think Vaerys really just wanted to keep the peace between Starks and Lannisters so the Targs would have an easier time of it (whether you consider the Fagon plot true or not). I think Vaerys want Ned alive, which is why he convinced Cersei to send him to the Wall. However, Joffrey is a punk and decided against (maybe with some influence from a member of the small council?). I had not made that connection to Jon Connington, though @Lost Melnibonean. Good catch! I do agree that Ned was probably using it as an out, after all I think every word is a lie. I also wonder what Catelyn would have made of Ned swearing a lie to her gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 29 minutes ago, Stiles_of_the_Vale said: I think Vaerys really just wanted to keep the peace between Starks and Lannisters so the Targs would have an easier time of it (whether you consider the Fagon plot true or not). I think Vaerys want Ned alive, which is why he convinced Cersei to send him to the Wall. However, Joffrey is a punk and decided against (maybe with some influence from a member of the small council?). I had not made that connection to Jon Connington, though @Lost Melnibonean. Good catch! I do agree that Ned was probably using it as an out, after all I think every word is a lie. I also wonder what Catelyn would have made of Ned swearing a lie to her gods. I don't think Eddard intended it as an out. His sense of honor, and Cersei's hold on Sansa would have prevented that. But Varys might have planned on having Joffrey kill Sansa after the deal had been brokered. Such an action might have pushed Eddard past honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowmelter Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Kill Sansa?! That's madness. As heir to Winterfell (and the entire North) she is much too valuable to kill. Notice the attempt by the Tyrells to marry her to Willas. Even if fAegon is for real, it would behoove the conspiritors to have a pliable female heir to Winterfell to cement the kingdom together. Keep in mind, Im not of the opinion that Varys could possibly have known and effected all these plans, but he could have given direction. And, gods be good, Littlefinger is out there doing his thing. I wonder if he smelled this plot and is using Sansa to counteract Varys' plans. /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Very interesting catch I hadn't either noticed before. I love how we find new little gems in GRRM's writing even decades after it was published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neds Secret Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 On 15/11/2016 at 8:24 AM, Stiles_of_the_Vale said: I'm new to the forum, so I don't know if this has already been discussed. But recently, I started reading the books again and I could not help but notice Ned's confession of treason had some odd wording. "I am Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King,... and i come before you to confess my treason in the sight of gods and men... I betrayed the faith of my king and the trust of my friend, Robert... I swore to defend and protect his children, yet before his blood was cold, I plotted to dispose and murder his son and seize the throne for myself. Let the High Septon and Baelor the Beloved and the Seven bear witness to the truth of what I say: Joffrey Baratheon is the one true heir to the Iron Throne, an by the grace of all the gods, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm" (GOT). It took me a few times reading and listening (audiobooks) before I realized Ned was swearing to gods he had no tie to. Obviously, everything he said was a lie and anyone who knew him would know that. But wasn't it common knowledge that the Starks and the Northerns worshiped the Old Gods? Or was that not well known to the common folk? Also, he never really mentions the old gods, which is odd since people usually swear "by the old gods and the new." Throughout his speech I felt as though he was using rhetoric typically used with the Faith of the Seven. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Excellent catch, it's the first time I've seen this bought up on the forum and I believe GRRM wrote it this way so that Ned was indeed confessing to gods he didn't worship so as to avoid falsely confessing to his gods! Nicely done mate, good job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 16 hours ago, Snowmelter said: Kill Sansa?! That's madness. As heir to Winterfell (and the entire North) she is much too valuable to kill. Notice the attempt by the Tyrells to marry her to Willas. Even if fAegon is for real, it would behoove the conspiritors to have a pliable female heir to Winterfell to cement the kingdom together. Keep in mind, Im not of the opinion that Varys could possibly have known and effected all these plans, but he could have given direction. And, gods be good, Littlefinger is out there doing his thing. I wonder if he smelled this plot and is using Sansa to counteract Varys' plans. /shrug Exactly. Which show how strategically naive Ned was. Ironically his confession might have caused him his head. Ned was a war hero who was renowned throughout the 7 kingdoms as a man of honour. If he held to his guns then by executing him, the Lannisters would be fueling the rumours surrounding Joffrey's legitimacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 On 15. 11. 2016 at 1:49 PM, Julia H. said: On my part, I prefer the explanation that Ned chose his words very carefully. It is completely in character with him, and we see Jon doing something similar later on: He promises Stannis to keep "the wildling princess" under guard, but he does not consider Val a princess. Yes! The idea of Ned sort of showing them a finger even at his darkest moment is very appealing! A great catch, OP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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