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Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]


Little Scribe of Naath

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7 hours ago, TepidHands said:

As the podcast pointed out, for many of its critics, the show fails on its own "merits," more than just as adaptation. Lapses of logic, continuity, characterisation frustrate the discerning viewer, whether they've read the books or not. It works as bread and circuses, so for the very casual viewer, who watches for tits and dragons, it's AWESOME. 

Exactly.

@BlueEyedWolf ----Will they all read the book?  Even most of them?  No.

But MANY TV watchers will at least read summaries, or short video comparisons, recapping and pointing out the differences.  They read wikipedia.  They read news sites.  

Even for TV-only viewers, already I mean....the basic point that "Sansa never even meets the Boltons in the novels they're condensing it with an unrelated secondary character from another plotline"....GOT ACROSS.  To most of them.

I mean they were outraged that "this makes no sense", did a google search, saw headliens that "wow, this doesn't even remotely happen in the novels", that got them angrier.

My point is use the Sansa merged with Ramsay thing as an example; that already happened with the TV fans.  Now it will be on a grander scale (and the Sansa book plot having nothing to do with Ramsay by its end will only add further wait to "dear god you didn't need to merge these").  

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3 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

"If someone you hate is trying to get your inheritance, don't marry them."

That bit was great.

I've got to find time to listen to this podcast; I saved it to my desktop to make sure I get a listen eventually.  

Just dear god, I keep coming back around to that over and over again like...like PTSD flashbacks (not totally, but I mean a pale shadow of that).  

The "Sansa Marriage Strike" and everything......HOW...HOW was TV-Littlefinger's plan supposed to work?  "Oh, you'll manipulate Ramsay".....HOW DO YOU KNOW HE CAN BE MANIPULATED?  NO ONE....*no one* just hands away a major game piece like that without doing research first, even if he didn't already know who Ramsay was.

And question to everyone:  were you as uncomfortable as I was when Season 6, the episode where Littlefinger meets her at the Mole's Town brothel......has Sansa point out to Littlefinger that his plan made no god damned sense, but he sort of just managed to convince her that it was a masterstroke of genius at the time so she went along with it.  But now that she's back, she asks "what the hell did you think was supposed to happen?"

That....that was uncomfortable to watch, for me at least.  Because it was as if the TV writers were....bluntly admitting with a casual shrug that *raping Sansa Stark* really didn't make any sense, but laughing it off with a shrug by acknowledging "heh, that was kind of silly and nonsensical, wasn't it?"

Do ANY of you think that counts as "an apology"?  Not that they meant it like that but......what I mean is .....lampshade hanging is not an excuse.

Like, the fact that Littlefinger, with a major spy network, wouldn't even know who Ramsay is?  Their patch solution to that was to include a line of Littlefinger "lampshading" (pointing out a contrivance) that "hey, I've never heard of you before".

....that....that isn't the kind of thing that lampshading can fix!

So the Season 6 scene, similarly, felt like the TV show trying to wash its hands of the absurd lack of plot mechanics for the Sansa Marriage Strike (leading to her rape)......by "lampshading" that in retrospect, it made no sense.


So I'm sitting there wondering......do they seriously think that makes it better?

I mean....theoretically....maybe if D&D at a press conference or DVD commentary said "this storyline got away from us, in retrospect it was a dumb idea, and if we had a chance do go back in a time machine we wouldn't do it".....that's.....that would be something.  I don't know if I'd forgive after that, but it would be something.  Same as with comic book writers for decades (SOME of which later admitted they had stupid ideas; like the head of DC Comics who later admitted that de-powering Wonder Woman in the 1970's was an experiment that went wrong and in retrospect was a bad decision he shouldn't have done).  


Rambling.

Point is, does "lampshading" how absurd and nonsensical events had to bend to get Sansa raped.....make up for it, to anyone?


Also I've very curious at how non-book readers verbalized that this didn't make sense.  The TV-only friend you mention.  Are there any writeups, I mean the exact words, of people who are "I never read the books but purely as a TV show in isolation this is logically incoherent and this is why the Sansa rape stuff offended me; not just for content but because it made no story sense".

NO ONE uses marriage as a weapon like that.  Remember when Sansa was a prisoner of the Lannisters, and a forced marriage was a bad idea?  If this was a potential skill before, why didn't she "make Tyrion hers" to destroy THE LANNISTERS from within?!

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4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

To be honest....to me anyway....it became blatantly obvious within a matter of days that it was just an unintentional impression due to bad camerawork and bad oversight, that they were too cowardly to admit to.  

And hey, accidents happen, people don't like admitting to them.  But.....I assumed they'd sheepishly admit they were wrong in the Season 4 DVD commentary.  Then the Tysha omission came in the Season 4 finale.

Even then.....I waited for that DVD release.  Then nothing.  I think many of us were waiting for...something.

My point is that no, the episode airing itself wasn't when I lost faith in them.

I lost all faith in them right before Season 5 began, when the Oxford Union panel came out, and someone directly asked them about it....and they just fumble for a response.  I mean, painfully obvious that it was a mistake they don't like talking about.  And will never admit to.  Just repeat the question back at the audience.

That....that was THE moment, watching that, when I realized we aren't just dealing with "normal" people who I disagree with, but people who have no transparency or respect, non artistic integrity.  That's when I realized we were in a media blackout.  

Then a matter of weeks later we got Sansa rape and Dorne crap.  And I thought Dorne was salvageable....up until the finale's events.  And just writing off Stannis like that.  

So for some of you this started around....April 20, 2014, when the Greate Sept sex scene aired.  For me it's all kind of a blur through early 2015.  Like, Oxford Union was April 2015, then May 17 was "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken", then season finale was June 14, 2015.  

What a difference a year makes:  high point was the Purple Wedding, April 13, 2014, right before the Jaime/Cersei Great Sept nonsense.  By June 14, 2015, I was left shaking and wondering if I'd keep watching the show (I do, but parsing out the good parts, while..."my values and principles" prevent me from just letting D&D off the hook....no, we will stay here and judge what they've done.  It's ours, not theirs.)

I mean it's....this image seared into my mind, of waiting to watch Elio and Linda's video review of the Season 5 finale, hoping they'd make sense of this....and when I turned it on, it's them staring at the camera with a stunned, haggard expression, and Elio just going, "yeah....we're....we're *done* with Game of Thrones".  Dear god.  

Dear god 2014 was a good year; World book, Dance of the Dragons prequels.  

I say all of this just thinking.....think where we were in Christmas break 2013, and now four years later.  Or that the show could so rapidly go downhill like that - parts of it anyway.  Relative to the fact that this book series began in *1996*.  

Ah no misunderstanding here. Season 4 wasn't when it turned against the show it was just the first time I was more critical. 

Seasons 1-3 had some stuff I didn't like e.g. Talisa change, too much female nudity, etc. But there's no perfect TV show and my overall opinion of the show and D&D was extremely positive. I would probably by more critical towards some stuff if I did a rewatch now, but back then GoT was my favourite TV show. When we got the sept scene I became a bit more critical for the first time and thought "maybe it's not at god as you think it is". Because not realising that what you film would be regarded as rape is a pretty massive screw up. And then Season 5 came along and that was the turning point for me. 

Regarding the sept scene: Yes, it became obvious within a couple of days that the sept scene was "just an accident". A pretty big mistake one that shouldn't have happened, but I agree that humans make mistakes. So, my opinion of D&D would be less negative if they had just done an interview and had said something like "we made a mistake and we realise that. We apologize and things like that won't happen in the future." Of course they didn't because they were already planning Season 5 at the time. 

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4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I've got to find time to listen to this podcast; I saved it to my desktop to make sure I get a listen eventually.  

Just dear god, I keep coming back around to that over and over again like...like PTSD flashbacks (not totally, but I mean a pale shadow of that).  

The "Sansa Marriage Strike" and everything......HOW...HOW was TV-Littlefinger's plan supposed to work?  "Oh, you'll manipulate Ramsay".....HOW DO YOU KNOW HE CAN BE MANIPULATED?  NO ONE....*no one* just hands away a major game piece like that without doing research first, even if he didn't already know who Ramsay was.

And question to everyone:  were you as uncomfortable as I was when Season 6, the episode where Littlefinger meets her at the Mole's Town brothel......has Sansa point out to Littlefinger that his plan made no god damned sense, but he sort of just managed to convince her that it was a masterstroke of genius at the time so she went along with it.  But now that she's back, she asks "what the hell did you think was supposed to happen?"

That....that was uncomfortable to watch, for me at least.  Because it was as if the TV writers were....bluntly admitting with a casual shrug that *raping Sansa Stark* really didn't make any sense, but laughing it off with a shrug by acknowledging "heh, that was kind of silly and nonsensical, wasn't it?"

Do ANY of you think that counts as "an apology"?  Not that they meant it like that but......what I mean is .....lampshade hanging is not an excuse.

Like, the fact that Littlefinger, with a major spy network, wouldn't even know who Ramsay is?  Their patch solution to that was to include a line of Littlefinger "lampshading" (pointing out a contrivance) that "hey, I've never heard of you before".

....that....that isn't the kind of thing that lampshading can fix!

So the Season 6 scene, similarly, felt like the TV show trying to wash its hands of the absurd lack of plot mechanics for the Sansa Marriage Strike (leading to her rape)......by "lampshading" that in retrospect, it made no sense.


So I'm sitting there wondering......do they seriously think that makes it better?

I mean....theoretically....maybe if D&D at a press conference or DVD commentary said "this storyline got away from us, in retrospect it was a dumb idea, and if we had a chance do go back in a time machine we wouldn't do it".....that's.....that would be something.  I don't know if I'd forgive after that, but it would be something.  Same as with comic book writers for decades (SOME of which later admitted they had stupid ideas; like the head of DC Comics who later admitted that de-powering Wonder Woman in the 1970's was an experiment that went wrong and in retrospect was a bad decision he shouldn't have done).  


Rambling.

Point is, does "lampshading" how absurd and nonsensical events had to bend to get Sansa raped.....make up for it, to anyone?


Also I've very curious at how non-book readers verbalized that this didn't make sense.  The TV-only friend you mention.  Are there any writeups, I mean the exact words, of people who are "I never read the books but purely as a TV show in isolation this is logically incoherent and this is why the Sansa rape stuff offended me; not just for content but because it made no story sense".

NO ONE uses marriage as a weapon like that.  Remember when Sansa was a prisoner of the Lannisters, and a forced marriage was a bad idea?  If this was a potential skill before, why didn't she "make Tyrion hers" to destroy THE LANNISTERS from within?!

I have given a lot of thought to Littlefinger's plan in Winterfell - almost certainly more than the writers did. As best as I can tell, LF never intended for Sansa to take over anything. He didn't think she would manipulate the Boltons and he didn't think that either the Boltons or Stannis winning at the end of season 5 would give him what he wanted. They were just cover stories to hide his true purpose from Sansa so she would go along with the plan for the moment. This doesn't excuse Sansa - in that infamous scene in season 6 where she chews him out about how stupid his plan is, I was gritting my teeth. These are things that should have been just as clear to Sansa before the marriage as it was after. The only reason they are not is that if Sansa had even the vaguest self preservation instinct, LF's plan, and therefore the plot, couldn't happen. This was just a lazy and doomed effort to cover it up on the part of the writers.

LF's actual plan was to use Sansa's presence in Winterfell to split Cersei and the Boltons so he could invade with the Vale. So really, all that effort just so that Cersei doesn't try to interfere in anyway? Could she have interfered with his invasion even if she wanted to? She was facing down the faith and rebellions in the riverlands - she couldn't possibly have stopped LF. And even if she could... why not just lie about Sansa being with the Boltons? Why did that have to be true when LF is the biggest liar in the show?

No matter how you examine it, the Watsonian interpretation of events will always give way to the Doylist ones. Sansa was placed in winterfell because it cut corners, saved D and D having to write about actually politics, and conveniently pushed Sansa into becoming the same violent vengeance obsessed character as everyone else.   

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4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I've got to find time to listen to this podcast; I saved it to my desktop to make sure I get a listen eventually.  

The "Sansa Marriage Strike" and everything......HOW...HOW was TV-Littlefinger's plan supposed to work?  "Oh, you'll manipulate Ramsay".....HOW DO YOU KNOW HE CAN BE MANIPULATED?  NO ONE....*no one* just hands away a major game piece like that without doing research first, even if he didn't already know who Ramsay was.

And question to everyone:  were you as uncomfortable as I was when Season 6, the episode where Littlefinger meets her at the Mole's Town brothel......has Sansa point out to Littlefinger that his plan made no god damned sense, but he sort of just managed to convince her that it was a masterstroke of genius at the time so she went along with it.  But now that she's back, she asks "what the hell did you think was supposed to happen?"

That....that was uncomfortable to watch, for me at least.  Because it was as if the TV writers were....bluntly admitting with a casual shrug that *raping Sansa Stark* really didn't make any sense, but laughing it off with a shrug by acknowledging "heh, that was kind of silly and nonsensical, wasn't it?"

Do ANY of you think that counts as "an apology"?  Not that they meant it like that but......what I mean is 

....that....that isn't the kind of thing that lampshading can fix!

So the Season 6 scene, similarly, felt like the TV show trying to wash its hands of the absurd lack of plot mechanics for the Sansa Marriage Strike (leading to her rape)......by "lampshading" that in retrospect, it made no sense.


So I'm sitting there wondering......do they seriously think that makes it better?

I mean....theoretically....maybe if D&D at a press conference or DVD commentary said "this storyline got away from us, in retrospect it was a dumb idea, and if we had a chance do go back in a time machine we wouldn't do it".....that's.....that would be something.  I don't know if I'd forgive after that, but it would be something.  Same as with comic book writers for decades (SOME of which later admitted they had stupid ideas; like the head of DC Comics who later admitted that de-powering Wonder Woman in the 1970's was an experiment that went wrong and in retrospect was a bad decision he shouldn't have 
 

I think if they did a press conference and admit that the Sansa marriage strike was a mistake, I probably wouldnt forgive them, because they have admitted that they planned it for years and they should have realised at some point that it was a bad idea. Still my opinion of them would be less negative. 

The lampshading doesn't make things up for me. The podcaster barely talks about Dorne (I guess because it's so obviously bad that he doesn't have to explain this to casual viewers), but he talks about the scene with Ollenna and the Sandsnakes. He pretty much says "yeah, you realised that you made a mistake, but we are not laughing about your mistakes with you." 

4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:




Also I've very curious at how non-book readers verbalized that this didn't make sense.  The TV-only friend you mention.  Are there any writeups, I mean the exact words, of people who are "I never read the books but purely as a TV show in isolation this is logically incoherent and this is why the Sansa rape stuff offended me; not just for content but because it made no story sense".
 

I don't know any out of the top of my head. Can't link stuff, because the forum doesn't work properly on my phone, but in the Season 5 Episode 6 part of the forum there is a thread with critic's reactions to the Episode. 

Maybe it would be good to also look into the reviews for Episode 5.3 that's the one in which LF gives Sansa the make him your's speech right? Maybe some reviewers expresses their views that this was a pretty stupid plan in their review for this Episode. 

Maybe there are also some reaction videos in which the viewers talk about it. 

I can check German reviews this evening maybe I'll find one. 

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13 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Well some people have speculated that it might be the third big WTF moment GRRM told D&D told them about. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, but IRRC they said that the third WTF moment is close to the end of the story, which makes me a bit doubtful about the Ice Dragon being it. 

This is the reason why I coud easily assume that the White Dragon is something that's not gonna be in the next book Imagine someone who hasn't visited any online sites about GOT and watched the first 5 seasons of the show would start reading the books. That person would believe that Sansa marries Ramsay, that Jaime visits Dorne, that Jon get's stabbed by Olly and Aliser Thorne, that Catelyn never comes back and that Robb was married to Talisa a noblewoman from Volatis. That person would wonder why we don't have any Ross POV chapters in AGOT and ACOK and while reading ASOS that person will probably ask himself when Jon will go on the mission to Chraster's keep and when Brienne and the Hound will start their fight. Okay some of these things have a bit of a connection to stuff that happens in the books, but considering how much the showrunners have already changed or invented I wouldn't be surprised if the White Dragon thing is also invented. 

I find the White Dragon concept absolutely stupid and illogical, and I seriously hope it does not come to pass, which means it's likely a certainty

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5 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:I've got to find time to listen to this podcast; I saved it to my desktop to make sure I get a listen eventually.  

Just dear god, I keep coming back around to that over and over again like...like PTSD flashbacks (not totally, but I mean a pale shadow of that).  

The "Sansa Marriage Strike" and everything......HOW...HOW was TV-Littlefinger's plan supposed to work?  "Oh, you'll manipulate Ramsay".....HOW DO YOU KNOW HE CAN BE MANIPULATED?  NO ONE....*no one* just hands away a major game piece like that without doing research first, even if he didn't already know who Ramsay was.

And question to everyone:  were you as uncomfortable as I was when Season 6, the episode where Littlefinger meets her at the Mole's Town brothel......has Sansa point out to Littlefinger that his plan made no god damned sense, but he sort of just managed to convince her that it was a masterstroke of genius at the time so she went along with it.  But now that she's back, she asks "what the hell did you think was supposed to happen?"

That....that was uncomfortable to watch, for me at least.  Because it was as if the TV writers were....bluntly admitting with a casual shrug that *raping Sansa Stark* really didn't make any sense, but laughing it off with a shrug by acknowledging "heh, that was kind of silly and nonsensical, wasn't it?"

Do ANY of you think that counts as "an apology"?  Not that they meant it like that but......what I mean is .....lampshade hanging is not an excuse.

Like, the fact that Littlefinger, with a major spy network, wouldn't even know who Ramsay is?  Their patch solution to that was to include a line of Littlefinger "lampshading" (pointing out a contrivance) that "hey, I've never heard of you before".

....that....that isn't the kind of thing that lampshading can fix!

So the Season 6 scene, similarly, felt like the TV show trying to wash its hands of the absurd lack of plot mechanics for the Sansa Marriage Strike (leading to her rape)......by "lampshading" that in retrospect, it made no sense.


So I'm sitting there wondering......do they seriously think that makes it better?

I mean....theoretically....maybe if D&D at a press conference or DVD commentary said "this storyline got away from us, in retrospect it was a dumb idea, and if we had a chance do go back in a time machine we wouldn't do it".....that's.....that would be something.  I don't know if I'd forgive after that, but it would be something.  Same as with comic book writers for decades (SOME of which later admitted they had stupid ideas; like the head of DC Comics who later admitted that de-powering Wonder Woman in the 1970's was an experiment that went wrong and in retrospect was a bad decision he shouldn't have done).  


Rambling.

Point is, does "lampshading" how absurd and nonsensical events had to bend to get Sansa raped.....make up for it, to anyone?


Also I've very curious at how non-book readers verbalized that this didn't make sense.  The TV-only friend you mention.  Are there any writeups, I mean the exact words, of people who are "I never read the books but purely as a TV show in isolation this is logically incoherent and this is why the Sansa rape stuff offended me; not just for content but because it made no story sense".

NO ONE uses marriage as a weapon like that.  Remember when Sansa was a prisoner of the Lannisters, and a forced marriage was a bad idea?  If this was a potential skill before, why didn't she "make Tyrion hers" to destroy THE LANNISTERS from within?!

EXACTLY!!!. I strongly agree with all of this, unfortunately not only are D$D hacks they are smartarses with little conscience and less respect for the audience than they have for the source material that made their career. The source material that every time they move away from makes them look like clueless amateurs that things make sense too creatively if they want it to happen! I really resent the fact that of all the possible showrunners in the world that may have found themselves in the position to adapt AsoiaF to television it fell to these 2 immature frat boys. It could have been wondrous, as it was in seasons 1-3 when they appeared to use the books as a guide, but no they had to let their Ids and their Egos take over and present us with such unforgettable characters as Talisa and Olly and super cartoon Ramsay villain and even illogical High Sparrow, aaghhh the horror, the horror!

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On 16-1-2017 at 7:46 PM, Lady of Whisperers said:

That person would wonder why we don't have any Ross POV chapters in AGOT and ACOK and while reading ASOS that person will probably ask himself when Jon will go on the mission to Chraster's keep and when Brienne and the Hound will start their fight. Okay some of these things have a bit of a connection to stuff that happens in the books, but considering how much the showrunners have already changed or invented I wouldn't be surprised if the White Dragon thing is also invented. 

That was me when I started to read the books. Well, I didn't expect Ross POV chapters, but I did expect a whore Ross to be a character in the books. Robb's war in the show was confusing by itself, and the bits of Harrenhal (suddenly everyone dead and gone, and then off-screen Roose's troops turn out to be killed there), though I liked Arya's story at Harrenhal in the show. And then I read aCoK and I'm even more confused (because it's written to pay close attention). Once I let go of the show-story though, the confusion lifted and I thought "Arya's aCoK story is fricking awesome and why the hell didn't they do it like that?" At least by aSoS, I was prepared to read a far better story than what I had watched. 

Pretty sure that by the time any show-only-watcher starts reading aFfC is already prepared to just let go of the show and read the books as they are.

As for the commentary that they adapted aFfC and aDwD: well they skewered it into bits and pieces and then sprinkled a few tidbits here and there in mash-up hussle. That whole scene with the Hound killing 3 men who stuck their fingers in another guy's butt for lolz who didn't "die well" seemed a hint to Shagwell (Shag Well, doesn't die well) and his 2 other friends that Brienne kills at the Crags.

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"I have given a lot of thought to Littlefinger's plan in Winterfell - almost certainly more than the writers did. As best as I can tell, LF never intended for Sansa to take over anything. He didn't think she would manipulate the Boltons and he didn't think that either the Boltons or Stannis winning at the end of season 5 would give him what he wanted. They were just cover stories to hide his true purpose from Sansa so she would go along with the plan for the moment."

I don't think the writers themselves, as a group, coherently kept track of the story points they were going to tell, or abandoned it halfway.

But judging from on-screen events...dear god, remember the scene when Littlefinger actually meets with Cersei?

Okay, first, there's no reason for her to be in Winterfell if Stannis wins - I've seen people actually say "so Stannis can make her Wardeness of the North" --he'd do that if she showed up AFTER he won!

But the Cersei meeting....what I THOUGHT they were building up is that Littlefinger needed an excuse to get Cersei's permission to invade the North.  

That at least makes sense in terms of plot mechanics of the moment....though of course long term, Doylist, it's because the writers wanted it to happen -- by which i mean, the INSTANT the Vale invades the North, they declare for JON SNOW and openly secede from the Iron Throne!

And okay maybe he didn't want to arouse suspicions until they were already there....IN THE BOOKs, Littlefinger never thought to ask permission to invade the North!  He's just going to do it!  Because they BORDER each other and he thinks the Lannisters are in no position to stop them!  Fighting ironborn, Tyrells, Riverlords, etc.  


So keeping in mind that, as presented, what we got was the disjointed results of multiple writers not coordinating with each other.  From what they presented, it seemed Littlefinger just wanted to trick Cersei into giving him permission to invade the North.

...but by Season 6, it...seems? that they forgot that, and treat it more as if they just plain had Littlefinger honestly think this was a plan, "Sansa manipulates Ramsay".  

What if this gets revealed in Season 7? I doubt it.  Something like they realize "Littlefinger just wanted an excuse to invade the North" --- regardless, it's a pretty heavy contrivance that didn't *need* to happen.

Quote

"This doesn't excuse Sansa - in that infamous scene in season 6 where she chews him out about how stupid his plan is, I was gritting my teeth. These are things that should have been just as clear to Sansa before the marriage as it was after. "

Thanks.  I'm not alone.  Gritting my teeth too.  Dear god, I wish I could add this quote to official wiki articles.  

And then they blame US when we point out that Sansa shouldn't have agreed to such an absurd plan.  You remember?  "What are you doing, blaming the victim?! You're blaming Sansa!"

...f--...I...Sansa is a *fictional character*, she doesn't exist!  She doesn't "think" anything!  I'm blaming the writers for making her not question an obviously absurd plan!

They said they wanted to merge Sansa with the Boltons since *Season 2* (not necessarily including rape, timing of that decision is uncertain)....and in THREE YEARS, they never thought out the BASIC PLOT MECHANICS of how this would happen?

Ah crud I was writing this response in order; good to talk to smart folks in a thread :) -- yes you already point out it seems that it was to split Cersei and the boltons.  

Quote

"He pretty much says "yeah, you realised that you made a mistake, but we are not laughing about your mistakes with you."


...(grin)....yeah, from Season 7 leaks...well, I thought making fun of Tyene by telling her to shut up and not speak another word was pretty funny in the sense of I needed a laugh at my pain -- and maybe the OTHER two writers put that bit in, who knows?  Maybe this was Cogman and Hill angry at the mess D&D left behind.  

But yeah....making jokes mocking a storyline we all know THEY THEMSELVES ruined doesn't make us suddenly..."love" D&D again.

Like...maybe if the X-men movies subsequently make fun of how bad X-Men 3 was, that sort of thing.  But those are FRANCHISE movies and they had NEW directors - they weren't by the same god-damned writers!

I think it's called "Author's Saving Throw" or "Take That Us" on TVTropes.com.  
Fundamentally, I don't think D&D feel "sorry" for how poorly they handled Dorne.  

Well I've got critic reviews on the wiki page, but I think most professional critics are "aware" that this wasn't in the books; I mean the REALLY casual ones who just watch it cold.  

....ultimately, I think the reaction to Littlefinger's so-called "plan" at the time....was what I did:  "maybe they're going somewhere with this".  

That is...we kept trying to figure out "what is Littlefinger REALLY doing?"

Oh....it's the Honeypot effect, haha.  Plain and simple.

People put up with Talisa for a while because they wondered, "no writing is this stupid, there surely must be an amazing twist this is setting up, we can't possibly take it at face value".

Problem is that you only realize something won't have an awesome twist explaining it all...after it's over, and no one is around to listen anymore.

....what's so inherently stupid or illogical about the White Dragon thing?  I mean I don't know if it's "good", but broadly...I don't see it contradicting anything.  


QUESTION:  Other than the brief scene with Samwell and Gilly in Season 5...did Olly have "speaking lines" at any point in the TV series?  If he did have a throwaway line or two, did he have any with JON SNOW specifically?

Because they keep talking about his "relationship" with Jon, but I can't remember him ever speaking to Jon.  

The Harrenhall stuff wasn't TOO bad:  they thought it would be too confusing to explain "Robb split his forces in two, the eastern half is commanded by Roose", so they sent them all to the Westerlands in Season 2, then they move back east to Harrenhal in Season 3.  It wasn't..."inherently stupid", though I wish they explained it a bit more clearly with war council maps and such. 

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2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Is anything fixable in the last two seasons?  I'm just throwing it out there.  In anyone's opinion is there an opportunity to fix anything that would lead to a somewhat satisfactory conclusion for any story line?

 No, season 5 and 6 are trash and not fixable at this point, a satisficatory conclusion is still theoretically possible but it would take writing skills far superior to what the writers have demonstrated so far and therefore highly unlikely.

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The scene in season 6with Sansa discussing herself being sold to the Boltons  by LF with Littlefinger himself was so pathetic, awkward, senseless, illogical and badly written, acted and with such pointless, bland dialogue that I found myself feeling the urge to hide under a table to avoid it! Possibly the best 4th wall example of television in television history (really meta)! 2   Characters revisiting a momentously bad decision that caused untold butterfly effect problems a year after they made the decision together and they still had no idea why they sold Sansa to the murderers and usurpers of her family to be used as a womb and a sex slave and they still had no idea why they did it or how they possibly hoped to beneffit from it (I AM STARING RIGHT AT YOU D&D). It was so ridiculous that I have to cover my eyes and yell nonsense if it ever manages to appear on a screen near me again! Blah blah bla blah

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2 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

 

The scene in season 6with Sansa discussing herself being sold to the Boltons  by LF with Littlefinger himself was so pathetic, awkward, senseless, illogical and badly written, acted and with such pointless, bland dialogue that I found myself feeling the urge to hide under a table to avoid it! Possibly the best 4th wall example of television in television history (really meta)! 2   Characters revisiting a momentously bad decision that caused untold butterfly effect problems a year after they made the decision together and they still had no idea why they sold Sansa to the murderers and usurpers of her family to be used as a womb and a sex slave and they still had no idea why they did it or how they possibly hoped to beneffit from it (I AM STARING RIGHT AT YOU D&D). It was so ridiculous that I have to cover my eyes and yell nonsense if it ever manages to appear on a screen near me again! Blah blah bla blah

 

 

I agree.  It was an attempt to put a band-aid on a gunshot wound.  What sucks is that I want to love these characters.  Sansa, above all people, would see from the jump the plan to marry Ramsay was stupid.  She's been raised for marriage and thoroughly understands social and political reasons for highborn marriage.  I so wanted her to have her moment to confront Littlefinger in a satisfying way, but how can she?  If neither character knows why they did the things they did, how can they address it?  Show Littlefinger is not a cunning super villain.  He only looks smart when other people around him are incredibly dumb, but he's still pretty dumb.  He should be a character you love to hate.  Sansa bringing his downfall is only satisfying if it shows her outsmarting a super smart guy.  The only thing I will say which is kinda consistent in this scene with book Littlefinger is that he had her meet him in a brothel.  He did the same thing to Cat in the book and show, which speaks to what he really thinks of Cat and thus Sansa.  I don't think that was probably in the writer's thoughts.  Just a coincidence.

Even with Ramsay, what maybe would have made it a little satisfying death was if she publically sentenced him to death as Ned would have done.  Even if she couldn't swing the sword herself, at least it would show her in the moment reclaiming her Stark identity in front of their bannermen.  She's got the direwolf dress and wolfskin cloak.  It would have been a more powerful image than just feeding him to the dogs in secret.  Nothing about the plot makes sense, but it least it would have been something to make the moment ABOUT SANSA STARK instead of about Ramsay.  Too long she and Theon were supporting cast in the Ramsay Bolton show.  I would like to see LF publically exposed and sentenced that way, but that's not likely to happen.  And I really like the idea (think it was in the podcast) of Sansa giving the speech shaming the other lords while they all knew she (Ned Stark's daughter and Robb Stark's sister, who they all claim to love) was held as a prisoner.  Lyanna Mormont, while I like her, is kind of a hypocrite.  She almost didn't answer the call either and basically flipped shit to the only family she considers legitimate rulers of the North, one of whom is a rape victim and prisoner of war.  The North did not remember shit at all.  

The only thing I am looking forward to is the reunion of Sansa, Arya, and Bran -- and the Hound too if the leaks are true.  Especially the Hound, Sansa, and Arya.  They all have an important established dynamic with each other that was cut short and needs resolution.  I especially want to see the sisters using their skill sets (I'll use the term loosely) in a united front.      

                     

 

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6 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I agree.  It was an attempt to put a band-aid on a gunshot wound.  What sucks is that I want to love these characters.  Sansa, above all people, would see from the jump the plan to marry Ramsay was stupid.  She's been raised for marriage and thoroughly understands social and political reasons for highborn marriage.  I so wanted her to have her moment to confront Littlefinger in a satisfying way, but how can she?  If neither character knows why they did the things they did, how can they address it?  Show Littlefinger is not a cunning super villain.  He only looks smart when other people around him are incredibly dumb, but he's still pretty dumb.  He should be a character you love to hate.  Sansa bringing his downfall is only satisfying if it shows her outsmarting a super smart guy.  The only thing I will say which is kinda consistent in this scene with book Littlefinger is that he had her meet him in a brothel.  He did the same thing to Cat in the book and show, which speaks to what he really thinks of Cat and thus Sansa.  I don't think that was probably in the writer's thoughts.  Just a coincidence.

Even with Ramsay, what maybe would have made it a little satisfying death was if she publically sentenced him to death as Ned would have done.  Even if she couldn't swing the sword herself, at least it would show her in the moment reclaiming her Stark identity in front of their bannermen.  She's got the direwolf dress and wolfskin cloak.  It would have been a more powerful image than just feeding him to the dogs in secret.  Nothing about the plot makes sense, but it least it would have been something to make the moment ABOUT SANSA STARK instead of about Ramsay.  Too long she and Theon were supporting cast in the Ramsay Bolton show.  I would like to see LF publically exposed and sentenced that way, but that's not likely to happen.  And I really like the idea (think it was in the podcast) of Sansa giving the speech shaming the other lords while they all knew she (Ned Stark's daughter and Robb Stark's sister, who they all claim to love) was held as a prisoner.  Lyanna Mormont, while I like her, is kind of a hypocrite.  She almost didn't answer the call either and basically flipped shit to the only family she considers legitimate rulers of the North, one of whom is a rape victim and prisoner of war.  The North did not remember shit at all.  

The only thing I am looking forward to is the reunion of Sansa, Arya, and Bran -- and the Hound too if the leaks are true.  Especially the Hound, Sansa, and Arya.  They all have an important established dynamic with each other that was cut short and needs resolution.  I especially want to see the sisters using their skill sets (I'll use the term loosely) in a united front.      

                     

 

That scene is Mole's town is just par for the course at this point when it comes to the show's idiocy in scripting, but what really irritated me was that some outlets used it as proof that Sansa was becoming a schemer by confronting the man who had betrayed her. 

The big problem with this (ignoring the overall problem that it addressed a stupid plot point by pointing out how stupid it was) is that it is a fundamentally terrible political move. 

Consider this; in early season 6, Sansa is convinced that LF is now her enemy and he is actively using her as a pawn to his own ends. She also knows that he usually travels with lots of hired men to protect him. With these two pieces of information, Sansa decides to confront LF directly in an isolated place. She once again places herself in his sphere of influence and potential control, only bringing Brienne with her. (Admittedly a good choice of bodyguard; Brienne is essentially the hulk at this point) If LF had brought lots of men with him, he could have killed Brienne, kidnapped Sansa and once again got to work making her life miserable. Sansa voluntarily going to mole's town with one person as backup is profoundly stupid, especially when Jon could bring the entire wildling army to protect her if she was nearer the wall.

You might also spot that this mistake works in reverse; LF is extremely stupid for going alone into enemy territory to meet Sansa who has fled winterfell. It apparently never entered his head that she might be angry with him. 

But it's not just the situation which proves Sansa's stupidity; it's how she deals with the meeting as well. Machiavelli teaches us that "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared". In this case Sansa explains:

1. That she knows he is conniving to his own ends.

2. That she now hates LF and wants nothing more to do with him.

3. That she will let him go after a brief moment of threatening.

This is appalling strategic behavior. She makes an enemy of LF, threatens his life, informs him of her own plans and then simply lets him go to do whatever he wants. Sansa has done nothing for her own cause except make herself feel a little better by having a shout. In fact, her behavior here most resembles Ned when he approached Cersei in the garden, giving away information about her own position and doing nothing to improve it.

So what should she have done? Two very simple, very easy solutions.

1. Cry, pretend to be glad that LF is here and embrace him and the help he offers. The Stark cause gets the Vale knights and LF is none the wiser that Sansa is now working against him, and can turn on him at her leisure.

2. If she can't hold her anger in, have LF killed there and then. Then travel to Moat Cailen, tell the Vale Lords that the Boltons killed LF, corroborate his abduction story and use the Vale Knights to wreak vengeance on Ramsay's head.

These are extremely basic strategies in dealing with a situation, and they are ignored to create some false sense of tension in episoe 9.  

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22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That was me when I started to read the books. Well, I didn't expect Ross POV chapters, but I did expect a whore Ross to be a character in the books. Robb's war in the show was confusing by itself, and the bits of Harrenhal (suddenly everyone dead and gone, and then off-screen Roose's troops turn out to be killed there), though I liked Arya's story at Harrenhal in the show. And then I read aCoK and I'm even more confused (because it's written to pay close attention). Once I let go of the show-story though, the confusion lifted and I thought "Arya's aCoK story is fricking awesome and why the hell didn't they do it like that?" At least by aSoS, I was prepared to read a far better story than what I had watched. 

I read the books shortly before Season 2 came out, When I first watched Season 2 the change in Arya's Harrenhall storyline didn't bother me that much. I was annoyed by the changes in Catelyn's, Robb's Jon's and Dany's storylines, but not that much by the Arya and Tywin scenes. Though I didn't pay close attention to the Harrenhall storyline when I first read ACOK, I read the books way too fast for that. I see things differently now. There are a couple of changes that bother me much more and I'm not super upset by this change, but I would have liked it if they had stayed a bit closer to the books. 

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As for the commentary that they adapted aFfC and aDwD: well they skewered it into bits and pieces and then sprinkled a few tidbits here and there in mash-up hussle. That whole scene with the Hound killing 3 men who stuck their fingers in another guy's butt for lolz who didn't "die well" seemed a hint to Shagwell (Shag Well, doesn't die well) and his 2 other friends that Brienne kills at the Crags.

Yeah... they took parts out of it, but changed so much of the context and the themes, that I can't see it as a very good adaptation.

17 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Is anything fixable in the last two seasons?  I'm just throwing it out there.  In anyone's opinion is there an opportunity to fix anything that would lead to a somewhat satisfactory conclusion for any story line?

Interesting question. I don't think it's possible to retroactively fix Dorne or the Sansa Bolton Storyline, because there are simply too many plot holes in these storylines. 

When it comes to a satisfactory conclusion. For me the journey is more important then the ending. I can nearly accept every ending if the journey that leads there is good and if the ending fits the journey. I'm not opposed to things like Jon becoming KitN or Arya leaving the FM, but both things didn't really sit well with me in the show, due to the way in which they were achieved. I agree with the podcaster that things have to be earned, but this doesn't really happen in the show anymore. If the writing would go back to the quality it had in Season 1, then there could probably a be satisfactory conclusions to some storylines, but I think it's very unlikely that this will happen. It looks like Seaoson 7 will be similar to Season 6 in terms of writing quality and I suspect that things will also be this way in Season 8. So, I doubt we will get a good journey to the ending, which will likely make the ending unsatisfactory for me, no matter what kind of ending it is. 

36 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

SNIP for lenght

Excellent summary :thumbsup:

The writers claim the entire time that Sansa has become a player in the game of thrones and critics praise her for being so smart, but she acts incredibly stupid the entire time, because of how the writers have written her. 

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10 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

I read the books shortly before Season 2 came out, When I first watched Season 2 the change in Arya's Harrenhall storyline didn't bother me that much. I was annoyed by the changes in Catelyn's, Robb's Jon's and Dany's storylines, but not that much by the Arya and Tywin scenes. Though I didn't pay close attention to the Harrenhall storyline when I first read ACOK, I read the books way too fast for that. I see things differently now. There are a couple of changes that bother me much more and I'm not super upset by this change, but I would have liked it if they had stayed a bit closer to the books.

I was binge watching S3 when I started to read the books, and this was before S4 came out on TV. I'll tell you why I wasn't initially as annoyed with the changes of Catelyn, Robb's, Jon's, Dany's and Sansa's storylines: except for aGoT, I wasn't really aeger to read those POVs in aCoK. Dany's plot in S2 in Qarth was totally off-putting and boring except for the HotU. Robb and Talissa barely had my interest. Catelyn seemed this tag-along for the most part. I wasn't thrilled with Qhorin and Ygritte much either. So, starting to read aCoK, I looked forward mostly to Theon, Bran, Arya, Sansa (though I didn't like her much) and Tyrion. What I noticed was that Robb was barely in aCoK, I speed read Dany, Catelyn and Jon, noticed differences, but as it held no original interest to me, I was pre-disposed to care less about the changes in it. I read the others with far more focus and anticipation the first time around, and I was terribly confused by this Reek, the Vargo Hoat uprisal against Amory, while noticing Tyrion's far darker personna, Sansa not experiencing a rape attempt and her secret meetings with Dontos. So, I reread it all immediately, far more slowly, before continuing aSoS, letting go of the show plot in my mind and immerse myself more in the book story, that's when I started to realize that the show had already ruined some characters for me, and that these characters were far more interesting in the books.

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On 1/17/2017 at 10:55 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Is anything fixable in the last two seasons?  I'm just throwing it out there.  In anyone's opinion is there an opportunity to fix anything that would lead to a somewhat satisfactory conclusion for any story line?

Dorne and Sansa are not fixable.  Everything else....never reached a point I considered truly "broken", in the sense that it needed a fix-fic, and not just better writing in the next season.  

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On 1/18/2017 at 6:27 AM, Neds Secret said:

The scene in season 6with Sansa discussing herself being sold to the Boltons  by LF with Littlefinger himself was so pathetic, awkward, senseless, illogical and badly written, acted and with such pointless, bland dialogue that I found myself feeling the urge to hide under a table to avoid it! Possibly the best 4th wall example of television in television history (really meta)! 2   Characters revisiting a momentously bad decision that caused untold butterfly effect problems a year after they made the decision together and they still had no idea why they sold Sansa to the murderers and usurpers of her family to be used as a womb and a sex slave and they still had no idea why they did it or how they possibly hoped to beneffit from it (I AM STARING RIGHT AT YOU D&D). It was so ridiculous that I have to cover my eyes and yell nonsense if it ever manages to appear on a screen near me again! Blah blah bla blah

Yes.

And the...4th wall breaking.  I mean even when Littlefinger is directly asked "What exactly was your 'plan'?  What did you think would happen?"....all they have him do is stand there in silence.  

Then the writers brush it off as "Littlefinger really made a mistake".

No, this isn't just a "mistake".  It's bad writing.  A master manipulator like him wouldn't hand over Sansa without at least researching who he was handing her over to.  And let's assume that Ramsay was just like, a Frey or something; HOW MUCH can you "manipulate him from within"?

I....think they were using Margaery/Joffrey as an analogy...BUT that only worked because *the Lannisters were already dependent on the Tyrells*.  Giving a royal marriage to Margaery was something *the Tyrells* demanded, it was a concession *to them*.  

And again, butterfly effect:  this isn't something you can just shrug off, like "Qarth should have been a little better paced".  Raping a core cast member has MASSIVE effects on the ongoing plotlines, it's like Jaime losing a hand.  

And what annoys me most is that they never explained any of it; not even "defended"; just....in their own words, why did you write this?

Well they gave ONE "press release" (not 'interview') in Entertainment Weekly right after it aired, and that was it.

I mean the weird part is....could they...TELL that everyone thought it made no sense?  And if they did.....why the hell did they do it, if they couldn't demonstrably explain it even to their own subordinates?  I mean, I want to know, what did they tell Sophie, or Cogman and Hill?  Or their other staffers?  Much less, GRRM.  

I mean when you reach a point where you can't even....'verbalize' your own defense....

Hey did anyone see the Idaho PBS writer's interview on YouTube?  Directly asked about the Sansa rape controversy, that even senators were tweeting they were quitting the show, and they just bluntly go "eh, we don't have to give an explanation for that". 

well, I think they meant "defense" or "apology", and I don't expect that.....what I expect is a *basic explanation* of why you thought this happened.   And yes, this is an OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND YOURSELF because accusations are swirling that this made no sense and was terrible writing.  

It's not that "rape is in the show" but "this is very poorly written, and all the more insulting because it is a poorly written invented rape subplot, which you should have devoted more attention to".  

WHY DIDN'T THE MEDIA CRITICIZE THEM FOR THIS WHEN THAT AIRED?

well, to be honest, many did, and many major critics have lost all faith in them.  It's different from like, Season 4 when we were arguing that things were "tonally" wrong.  Though admittedly, ,they were also better writers then, hadn't declined yet.  

I don't know what "the media" is, official sources, I mean in TV podcasts at least yeah, quite a few did point out "this Mole's Town scene isn't fixing anything, it's only highlighting your past stupidity as writers".  But of course D&D don't care about anything except their IMDB score compared to Breaking Bad (we have an actual video clip of that; "we don't listen to critics, we were up all night refreshing our IMDB episode page to see if we matched Breaking Bad").

Fundamentally, they consider Sansa "a player" if she has a big scene yelling at Littlefinger, or yelling at Ramsay......not "a political player" who demonstrably makes choices which affect the narrative....narrative agency.  It's weird that they're not....lying.  They're not lying.  Before Season 5 began they said they consider this the Season Sansa becomes "a player in the game of thrones", and I think they were being totally honest.

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