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Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]


Little Scribe of Naath

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1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

[snip]


No, this isn't just a "mistake".  It's bad writing.  A master manipulator like him wouldn't hand over Sansa without at least researching who he was handing her over to.  And let's assume that Ramsay was just like, a Frey or something; HOW MUCH can you "manipulate him from within"?

[snip]

 

Yeah, and not only that.  If the show was internally consistent at all then a master manipulator like Littlefinger also would never have just handed over his one key to having any power in the Vale at all, Sweetrobin, to the Royces who have no love for or loyalty to him:rolleyes:  Realistically, with the way the Game o' Thrones as established in the books and show is played, Littlefinger would have simply met with some unfortunate fate on the road (arranged by the Royces, of course) upon immediately turning Sweetrobin over to them.  That was just dumb.

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20 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Yeah, and not only that.  If the show was internally consistent at all then a master manipulator like Littlefinger also would never have just handed over his one key to having any power in the Vale at all, Sweetrobin, to the Royces who have no love for or loyalty to him:rolleyes:  Realistically, with the way the Game o' Thrones as established in the books and show is played, Littlefinger would have simply met with some unfortunate fate on the road (arranged by the Royces, of course) upon immediately turning Sweetrobin over to them.  That was just dumb.

Reposting one of my favourite rants, because it fits right now.

Littlefingers plan as originally written by Sir Loin Steak in this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/139812-spoilers-rant-and-rave-without-reprecussions-season-6-edition/&page=262

Quote

Step 1: Seduce and exploit Lysa.

Step 2: At some personal risk, secretly extract Sansa from King's Landing.

Step 3: Acquire Harrenhal enabling him to marry Lysa. (looking good so far)

Step 4: Murder Lysa and then rely on the Vale Lord's buying your foreign kidnap victim's word. Hope that all of them are inexplicably loyal to the Starks.

Step 5: Dress Sansa as a villain for funsies. Creep on her as much as possible to ensure loyalty.

Step 6: With Robert Arryn under his "protection" he can now effectively control the Vale until he comes of age.

Step 7: Immediately fob off his new ward on a lunkhead lord who has no reason to be loyal to you, but may be stupid enough to accidentally kill the infirm Sweet Robin.

Step 8: With the suspicious death of Lysa still fresh in everyone's memory, Robert Arryn out of his clutches, and leaving the Vale Lords absolutely no reason to remain loyal to him - promptly leave the Vale.

Step 9: Fail to do any research whatsoever on your choice of marriage prospect for Sansa (his one remaining asset). Randomly decide that a man who you know betrayed his liege-lord, Roose Bolton, is a reliable partner. Despite knowing the value of information, maintaining a spy network that rivals Varys', and repeatedly telling others to trust no-one; assume that not hearing anything about Roose's bastard (who is already infamous in the North) is somehow a good thing!

Step 10: Hope that Roose will turn on his current ally and only meaningful support, despite the hostility of lords he currently rules over, making his current position very risky. Accomplish this in one sentence by rambling about the last-time the North and the Vale teamed up they like totally conquered everybody. Assume that Roose is an ignorant rube with as little grasp of history, context, military realities as yourself.

Step 11: Despite there being literally no prospect of negative repercussions for him, and in fact every reason to think he would benefit, assume that Roose won't have you immediately killed or imprisoned and simply keep Sansa (or even send her back to the Lannisters).

Step 12: Fail to understand how a marriage pact works. He is not related to Sansa, so there is no dynastic tie being formed. His involvement is secret, but on his journey he made no real effort to hide his movements (in fact Qyburn seems to be aware that he is in Winterfell, given that he relays Cersei's message to him there during his brief stay) - if either his presence becomes known or the revelation of Sansa's marriage becomes known he is quite clearly involved in high treason.

Step 13: With no credible reason to think so, assume that Sansa will be able to take control of this situation.

Step 14: Provide the Boltons with the extremely valuable means of legitimising their rule, get absolutely nothing in return. Rely on the kindness of their hearts!

Step 15: Incorrectly guess that Stannis will defeat the Boltons. Assume, despite knowing what Stannis is like, that he will then somehow be thankful for placing Sansa with the Boltons? Make the case after he wins that you only gave Sansa to his enemies so that he could claim her after winning? Or in other words assume the man that you think will destroy the Boltons is an incredibly gullible fool, despite serving on the council with him for years - from which you also know he personally dislikes you.

Step 16: Congratulations! You've successfully given away everything you spent years scheming to get for literally nothing in return! Return to King's Landing to pass Cersei, do not collect any money from the brothel. Do act smarmy to the religious extremists who've taken over the city and are powerful enough to threaten the King and hold the members of the monarchy on little more than heresay.

Step 17: Return to the Vale. Don't worry about any questions arising from your insane plan to give Sansa to the Boltons, you have the perfect cover story. The Boltons kidnapped her. Yes, a small force of Boltons somehow became aware that Sansa was in your possession, made it into and out of the extremely defensible Vale undetected, absconded with her and left you and all your men without so much as a scratch.

Step 18: For good measure insult a powerful lord and call him a traitor in his own home, while surrounded by his men.

Step 19: Thanks to Sweet Robin miraculously not dying and being extremely easy to control, immediately gather and march the Vale army north.

Step 20: Take Moat Cailin from the south. This military feat has never been accomplished in the history of Westeros, but you can probably pull it off, after all you've got years of experience as an accountant!

Step 21: By taking Moat Cailin from the Bolton forces, you're evidently now at war with them, but you're really leaning on the element of surprise, so keep this information from reaching them or their allies. Somehow.

Step 22: Park your forces at Moat Cailin. Guess that Sansa has survived and is at Castle Black, send her a message. Travel through vast swathes of Bolton controlled territory to meet with Sansa, the young woman you traded to the monstrous Ramsay for no discernible reason.

Step 23: By this point Sansa has probably realised that you're either incompetent or perhaps don't have her best interests at heart (it's both!). That's ok though! She won't have you killed and in fact will still trust you more than her half-brother Jon. Besides you've got Sweet Robin's army to offer her, which she would probably still have if she killed you, because it's Sweet Robin's and he likes her. But don't worry she's an idiot.

Step 24: Return to the army (again through hostile territory) and wait for the Stark's inability to raise the northern lords to make your force necessary. Good thing these Northern lords are so disloyal!

Step 25: March your army up the King's road completely undetected.

Step 26: Arrive at Winterfell completely undetected, just in the nick of time to win the battle between the Stark forces and the Boltons (at least 90% of the Stark forces should be dead at this point).

 

We'll have to wait till the end of the week for step 27+ but it's likely to involve Sansa not understanding leverage, because no-one in this universe understands that concept.

 

Littlefinger's plans only work, because every person he meets turns his or her brain of 

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1 minute ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Reposting one of my favourite rants, because it fits right now.

Littlefingers plan as originally written by Sir Loin Steak in this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/139812-spoilers-rant-and-rave-without-reprecussions-season-6-edition/&page=262

 

Littlefinger's plans only work, because every person he meets turns his or her brain of 

Yep!  And that post is a classic! :thumbsup:

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2 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:


Hey did anyone see the Idaho PBS writer's interview on YouTube?  Directly asked about the Sansa rape controversy, that even senators were tweeting they were quitting the show, and they just bluntly go "eh, we don't have to give an explanation for that". 

No, I haven't yet.Still have to listen to the Grantland one..But I put this one on my "to listen" list as well.

Speaking of podcasts: I've heard that D&D were asked about the Sansa rape in one podcast and said something like "this happened a year ago get over it". Can anyone tell me which podcast that was? 

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1 hour ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Reposting one of my favourite rants, because it fits right now.

Littlefingers plan as originally written by Sir Loin Steak in this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/139812-spoilers-rant-and-rave-without-reprecussions-season-6-edition/&page=262

 

Littlefinger's plans only work, because every person he meets turns his or her brain of 

It's not specific to LF. One of the weaknesses of the scripts from pretty much every season is that no one can be intelligent in the same conversation. I think Varys and LF had a couple and Olenna and Tywin had one, but that's it. It's a problem that arises when every conversation is dictated by utility to the plot rather than naturally presenting characters as real people having a conversation. The writing doesn't allow for complexity, so it becomes necessary for each interaction to have a "winner", who usually espouses the benefits of being a violent bastard and not giving a shit about everybody else as a closing (and irrefutable) argument. Since this is the core of most "political" scenes, LF comes out on top more often than not because that's who he is and the show tacitly endorses his worldview.

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3 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

No, I haven't yet.Still have to listen to the Grantland one..But I put this one on my "to listen" list as well.

Speaking of podcasts: I've heard that D&D were asked about the Sansa rape in one podcast and said something like "this happened a year ago get over it". Can anyone tell me which podcast that was? 

...Grantland podcast, though *in context* it was difficult to tell if he was being *sarcastic*, and while memory fails, I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about Sansa specifically.  

It was something about "did you do etc. etc. as a reaction to something a year ago?" and they generally explained that "by the time one season airs, the next is already written, so we can start filming by summer" - i.e. Season 4 was already scripted out by the time the Red Wedding aired in Season 3.  

All of which is factually accurate, that's the pace they're going at (maybe they *shouldn't*?  Given that Westworld openly said "we're only writing the next season after the last airs, so we don't burn through them quickly and make mistakes")


But no......I mean it's a silly quote, but in context, I think he was just talking about "an immediately following season physically can't react to the previous one" -- Season 5 wasn't a reaction to Season 4, Season 6 couldn't be a reaction to Season 5 - particularly.  For those who say Season 6 was meant to "make up" for Season 5.....well there's a few things they could quickly give a patch for here and there, but overall structure? No.  

It's the overlap the show has.  Season 5 was so bonkers because it's the season they wrote right after the Red Wedding, in Season 3, when they felt very "emboldened" to make changes (such as to Dorne).  

So.....interesting point is raised; we'd only really see major, structural attempts to address "problems" in Season 5 in Season 7.

.....though of course they already did react to Dorne in Season 5, by throwing it out - in absurd fashion - in the Season 6 premiere.  With no planning so they didn't need overlap.  (Siddig confirmed this wasn't what they planned).

I'd have to re-listen to the Grantland podcast. 

though.....you have to listen for yourself...it was the *way* he said it.  In context it did sound just like "we already have the next season written by the time you're watching the current one airing"......but to many people it sounded like he meant it more broadly, "I don't care what we did a year ago".    

Basically it was vague enough that he could get away with laughing it off as either a joke, or "I was talking about how the scripts overlap by season"........

 

......either way, you and I both know they don't seem to care that they spent Season 4 setting up "Dark Sansa" only to then.....turn her into a non-player victim in Season 5, while still insisting this was the season where she goes from pawn to player!

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Dear god that was an amazing post about Littlefinger's lack of plan.

You know, TV-Sansa doesn't "exist" but I almost...almost....don't blame her for not questioning Littlefinger's so-called plan.  Like us the audience, it was so ridiculous....basically amounting to "things will sort themselves out and you'll take over the Boltons from within somehow".....and he sounded so confident about it.......that to everyone, to Sansa, it must have sounded like this was "a plan" of some kind.  I mean the audience reaction at the time was also, "No, the writers aren't this stupid and short-sighted, there must be some underlying reason behind this."

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15 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Yes.

And the...4th wall breaking.  I mean even when Littlefinger is directly asked "What exactly was your 'plan'?  What did you think would happen?"....all they have him do is stand there in silence.  

Then the writers brush it off as "Littlefinger really made a mistake".

No, this isn't just a "mistake".  It's bad writing.  A master manipulator like him wouldn't hand over Sansa without at least researching who he was handing her over to.  And let's assume that Ramsay was just like, a Frey or something; HOW MUCH can you "manipulate him from within"?

I....think they were using Margaery/Joffrey as an analogy...BUT that only worked because *the Lannisters were already dependent on the Tyrells*.  Giving a royal marriage to Margaery was something *the Tyrells* demanded, it was a concession *to them*.  

And again, butterfly effect:  this isn't something you can just shrug off, like "Qarth should have been a little better paced".  Raping a core cast member has MASSIVE effects on the ongoing plotlines, it's like Jaime losing a hand.  

And what annoys me most is that they never explained any of it; not even "defended"; just....in their own words, why did you write this?

Well they gave ONE "press release" (not 'interview') in Entertainment Weekly right after it aired, and that was it.

I mean the weird part is....could they...TELL that everyone thought it made no sense?  And if they did.....why the hell did they do it, if they couldn't demonstrably explain it even to their own subordinates?  I mean, I want to know, what did they tell Sophie, or Cogman and Hill?  Or their other staffers?  Much less, GRRM.  

I mean when you reach a point where you can't even....'verbalize' your own defense....

Hey did anyone see the Idaho PBS writer's interview on YouTube?  Directly asked about the Sansa rape controversy, that even senators were tweeting they were quitting the show, and they just bluntly go "eh, we don't have to give an explanation for that". 

well, I think they meant "defense" or "apology", and I don't expect that.....what I expect is a *basic explanation* of why you thought this happened.   And yes, this is an OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND YOURSELF because accusations are swirling that this made no sense and was terrible writing.  

It's not that "rape is in the show" but "this is very poorly written, and all the more insulting because it is a poorly written invented rape subplot, which you should have devoted more attention to".  

WHY DIDN'T THE MEDIA CRITICIZE THEM FOR THIS WHEN THAT AIRED?

well, to be honest, many did, and many major critics have lost all faith in them.  It's different from like, Season 4 when we were arguing that things were "tonally" wrong.  Though admittedly, ,they were also better writers then, hadn't declined yet.  

I don't know what "the media" is, official sources, I mean in TV podcasts at least yeah, quite a few did point out "this Mole's Town scene isn't fixing anything, it's only highlighting your past stupidity as writers".  But of course D&D don't care about anything except their IMDB score compared to Breaking Bad (we have an actual video clip of that; "we don't listen to critics, we were up all night refreshing our IMDB episode page to see if we matched Breaking Bad").

Fundamentally, they consider Sansa "a player" if she has a big scene yelling at Littlefinger, or yelling at Ramsay......not "a political player" who demonstrably makes choices which affect the narrative....narrative agency.  It's weird that they're not....lying.  They're not lying.  Before Season 5 began they said they consider this the Season Sansa becomes "a player in the game of thrones", and I think they were being totally honest.

I think that not only can they not write but they do not care anymore and if you Combine with this with the arrogance that they frequently exhibit then you have the perfect storm that has destroyed everything that was good about the show and washed away the debris!

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6 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

I think that not only can they not write but they do not care anymore and if you Combine with this with the arrogance that they frequently exhibit then you have the perfect storm that has destroyed everything that was good about the show and washed away the debris

 
 
 

I get that it's a highly successful show regardless, but don't they have people above them at HBO?  Like no one at the very top is even questioning how dumb the writing is or how it's now become a parody of itself.  I guess that doesn't matter as long as they're still getting Emmys, but HBO used to be a much higher standard of quality.

I really credit actors who do manage to wring a good performance out of a bad script and help you forget it doesn't make sense for a minute.  I really credit Rory McCann who did know the book content in advance and it shows.  His performance mostly keeps the Hound from being turned completely into a chicken-eating, fuck-the-king meme.  I don't know if there are other actors who were aware of their book counterparts beforehand or did their research.  There are still some good things that do help in distracting from all the flaws.  There's still some good direction, beautifully composed music, immersive sets, and costumes.               

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....In context, I actually enjoyed the "eat every chicken in this room" joke; it was like a western, you know, casual talk while the subtext is "which of us draws a gun first to kill the other?"

In context it was fine, it was pre-fight posturing.

...I'm annoyed by the casual viewers who turned it into a meme, but no one person tried to do that, it's just annoying when that happens.

Of course, Cogman actually wrote the Arya/Sandor scenes, not D&D.  Shows given that it had more nuance (i.e. Sandor recalling to Arya the emotional pain of his own brother's betrayal).

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On 20.1.2017 at 4:28 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I get that it's a highly successful show regardless, but don't they have people above them at HBO?  Like no one at the very top is even questioning how dumb the writing is or how it's now become a parody of itself.  I guess that doesn't matter as long as they're still getting Emmys, but HBO used to be a much higher standard of quality.

I really credit actors who do manage to wring a good performance out of a bad script and help you forget it doesn't make sense for a minute.  I really credit Rory McCann who did know the book content in advance and it shows.  His performance mostly keeps the Hound from being turned completely into a chicken-eating, fuck-the-king meme.  I don't know if there are other actors who were aware of their book counterparts beforehand or did their research.  There are still some good things that do help in distracting from all the flaws.  There's still some good direction, beautifully composed music, immersive sets, and costumes.               

I think nothing is gonna change as long as the show is continuing to be successfull. They've got high viewership numbers, are praised by many critics and won the Emmys. So why should HBO change things as long as they make a lot of money with the show and there are no big scandals (like with the sept scene or the Sansa rape)?

Ah yes Rory McCann is great. 

Regarding actors who are aware of their book counterparts: As far as I know out of the characters who are still alive only the following actors have read the books:

Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, Gwendoline Christie, Ellie Kendrick and Keisha Castle Hughes.

Some of the actors whose roles got killed off have also read the bokes. Finn Jones for example.

I guess some other actos might have done research of their characters. The report about the episode commentaries for season 6 said that Joseph Mawle knew a lot about Benjen, so I guess he did some research. 

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On 1/20/2017 at 10:28 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I get that it's a highly successful show regardless, but don't they have people above them at HBO?  Like no one at the very top is even questioning how dumb the writing is or how it's now become a parody of itself.  I guess that doesn't matter as long as they're still getting Emmys, but HBO used to be a much higher standard of quality.

I really credit actors who do manage to wring a good performance out of a bad script and help you forget it doesn't make sense for a minute.  I really credit Rory McCann who did know the book content in advance and it shows.  His performance mostly keeps the Hound from being turned completely into a chicken-eating, fuck-the-king meme.  I don't know if there are other actors who were aware of their book counterparts beforehand or did their research.  There are still some good things that do help in distracting from all the flaws.  There's still some good direction, beautifully composed music, immersive sets, and costumes.               

Why would they?  The hype has overshadowed the actual product.  HBO has a warehouse full of Emmys and positive coverage.  If no one, including most of the critics is paying attention to the shocking decline in the show started w/ season 5, why should they?  With only two truncated seasons left, unless they kill off Jon Snow again or Arya or Dany or Tyrion in Season 7, there is no way the show is going to go into any type of significant viewership decline, certainly not enough to bother HBO.  It's only a tiny minority that pay attention to continuity issues and plot stupidity, which is why no one cares.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Due to time limitations, I've decided to drop all of the work I was doing on other projects and skip to making a new analysis video on TV-Dorne. 

There will be major revelations in this.  The TV-writers admitted to things in the Blu-ray commentary that you wouldn't believe. 

I enjoy GoTGifsAndMusings' review recaps of Seasons 5 and 6:


http://theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com/post/130032339399/apologizing-for-porne-a-retrospective

https://www.thefandomentals.com/porne-retrospective-season-6/
 

Yet these are only describing *how* TV-Dorne was bad, not *why* it turned out this way - the behind-the-scenes decisions and factors that led to this. 

Now, I don't know if you'll all agree, but personal I wouldn't have minded if they.....kept Doran mostly off-screen, and just sent Arianne as a new Small Council member.  Or something.  It's not just "drastic condensations" but the....well, Alexander Siddig mentioned it in his recent candid interview:  the realization that the showrunners have no sense of time management.  You see the unlimited budget they rolled out and just assumed "time must have been spent refining the script" and stuff, when it was really very haphazard and rushed.  I'd have respected them more if they cut Dorne entirely, rather than trying and failing to just...cram it in.

But I'm curious what you guys think:  why was TV-Dorne the way it was in Season 5?  What were D&D trying to do?

Season 6 was them dumping it in admission o failure - and dumping it sloppy, we all know that (why kill Doran when you can just keep him off-screen like Balon Greyjoy?)  The moment of failure was Season 5. 

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18 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Due to time limitations, I've decided to drop all of the work I was doing on other projects and skip to making a new analysis video on TV-Dorne. 

There will be major revelations in this.  The TV-writers admitted to things in the Blu-ray commentary that you wouldn't believe. 

I enjoy GoTGifsAndMusings' review recaps of Seasons 5 and 6:


http://theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com/post/130032339399/apologizing-for-porne-a-retrospective

https://www.thefandomentals.com/porne-retrospective-season-6/
 

Yet these are only describing *how* TV-Dorne was bad, not *why* it turned out this way - the behind-the-scenes decisions and factors that led to this. 

Now, I don't know if you'll all agree, but personal I wouldn't have minded if they.....kept Doran mostly off-screen, and just sent Arianne as a new Small Council member.  Or something.  It's not just "drastic condensations" but the....well, Alexander Siddig mentioned it in his recent candid interview:  the realization that the showrunners have no sense of time management.  You see the unlimited budget they rolled out and just assumed "time must have been spent refining the script" and stuff, when it was really very haphazard and rushed.  I'd have respected them more if they cut Dorne entirely, rather than trying and failing to just...cram it in.

But I'm curious what you guys think:  why was TV-Dorne the way it was in Season 5?  What were D&D trying to do?

Season 6 was them dumping it in admission o failure - and dumping it sloppy, we all know that (why kill Doran when you can just keep him off-screen like Balon Greyjoy?)  The moment of failure was Season 5. 

As far as I can tell, TV-Dorne sucked because it didn't have Arriane as it's locus. She's the one with the plans, the plot, the emotional conflict with her father and is the primary POV. 

Look at it this way - AFFC and ADWD took flak for being substantially more character driven than plot driven like the earlier books (not that the earlier books had bad characterization, it just never felt like we had to choose one of the other before AFFC). The story of Dorne is contained entirely in the pages of AFFC and follows this trend of heavy characterization. So how can a plot based around characterization work in any medium if the character it's based on is cut?!

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Well true - but there are some (not me) who say that merging Ellaria with Arianne worked well enough - Arianne wants war, so does TV-Ellaria. 

I mean, focusing purely on Season 5 - Season 6 was an admission of failure - what didn't work with merging Ellaria and Arianne?  From a TV standpoint, you understand, no knowledge of the books - they never established TV-Ellaria as someone wanting peace and to stop the cycle of revenge.  So nothing too incongruent with making Ellaria want revenge. 

On what front did that fail for TV-only fans then?

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13 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Well true - but there are some (not me) who say that merging Ellaria with Arianne worked well enough - Arianne wants war, so does TV-Ellaria. 

I mean, focusing purely on Season 5 - Season 6 was an admission of failure - what didn't work with merging Ellaria and Arianne?  From a TV standpoint, you understand, no knowledge of the books - they never established TV-Ellaria as someone wanting peace and to stop the cycle of revenge.  So nothing too incongruent with making Ellaria want revenge. 

On what front did that fail for TV-only fans then?

Killing all that is left of your family, to get revenge for dead family members is kinda stupid, isn't it?  Even if you were okay with killing Doran for his inaction on things, why kill his son?  He's innocent, and the nephew or cousin of the dead people you're getting revenge for.  I don't see how this makes any sense.  

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Killing all that is left of your family, to get revenge for dead family members is kinda stupid, isn't it?  Even if you were okay with killing Doran for his inaction on things, why kill his son?  He's innocent, and the nephew or cousin of the dead people you're getting revenge for.  I don't see how this makes any sense.  

Trystane was his father's son. With Doran dead, Trystane becomes the ruler of Dorne, which would send Ellaria back to square one.

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2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Trystane was his father's son. With Doran dead, Trystane becomes the ruler of Dorne, which would send Ellaria back to square one.

She's back to square one anyway, House Martell is extinct.  The house of her paramour, who she wanted to avenge by killing his brother and nephew.  Seems stupid. 

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