Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[StepStark]

11 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

But it's not just about the characters of the two latter books, it's also about the tone. What happens after war? How do people cope? How do they rationalize their actions? 

AFFC and ADWD are about consequences. The Stark cause has failed, so where do the remaining Starks go from here? The Lannisters have won the war, but now they are losing the peace. Tyrion's life as he knew it is over, so what does he do next?

Going from that to Season 6 is jarring not because of missing characters, but because the sensationalist nature of GOT in it's current form ignores consequence all the time. Deaths and battles are more frequent than ever, yet the consequences of them are nowhere to be seen.  

Well said. Disliking AFFC and ADWD is one thing, but calling them an uncontrolled mess is something different. So far, I have not seen a single argument that would make me think that Martin "lost control over the story" or that anything from AFFC and ADWD was "unnecessary".

[TheCasualObserver]

Just now, Tifani said:

i never said that season 6 was a well written season. the only real point i'm trying to make is that i think the show and books will have the same ending.  tbh i don't have much of an opinion on season 6 in general except that the whole jon/sansa and arya storylines were a mess. 

But what does "have the same ending" mean to you? If each character who dies in the show dies in the books but in completely different circumstances and reasons, is that still the same ending? Let's look at a theory - that Dany will actually be something of a villain at the end of ADOS and have to be taken down. Let's say she dies in the show as well but does so battling the great other in a badass moment the show loves so much.  Does that count as having the same ending?

[Cas Stark]

Discussion of the merits, overwriting, tangents and plot of the last two books doesn't really belong on this thread, but in the book forum, I think.

The show sucks for the most part now, but that is fairly far removed from the quality of the last two books, and is to me irrelevant to whether the main characters and stories will end the same or not.

[TheCasualObserver]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Discussion of the merits, overwriting, tangents and plot of the last two books doesn't really belong on this thread, but in the book forum, I think.

The show sucks for the most part now, but that is fairly far removed from the quality of the last two books, and is to me irrelevant to whether the main characters and stories will end the same or not.

Probably for the best.

Now lets get back to complaining about the show. Like how the hell did LF take Moat Cailen from Ramsay? Did Ramsay not know? Was he not protecting it? It makes no sense. 

[Cas Stark]

Just now, TheCasualObserver said:

Probably for the best.

Now lets get back to complaining about the show. Like how the hell did LF take Moat Cailen from Ramsay? Did Ramsay not know? Was he not protecting it? It makes no sense. 

I rarely even find the show plots are worth ranting about anymore....after season 5 it simply became nonsensical for most, if not all of the stories.  GOT is action driven, not character driven.  People do 'cool' 'badass' stuff.  Whether any of this stuff makes sense either plotwise or characterwise is irrelevant to 95% of professional critics and the GOT audience.

[Queen of Procrastination]

23 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Probably for the best.

Now lets get back to complaining about the show. Like how the hell did LF take Moat Cailen from Ramsay? Did Ramsay not know? Was he not protecting it? It makes no sense. 

And then LF managed to march the KotV through the entire North without Ramsay noticing. It makes no sense that Ramsay is surprised by the KotV, they can't take Moat Calin and then march through the North without someone noticing. 

[TheCasualObserver]

1 hour ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

And then LF managed to march the KotV through the entire North without Ramsay noticing. It makes no sense that Ramsay is surprised by the KotV, they can't take Moat Calin and then march through the North without someone noticing. 

This is also an example of the lack of consequences I mentioned above. The problem is, Ramsay was set up last season as if he's some kind of super scout who know's the land so well he and his twenty good man can sink Stannis without him ever knowing or being able to retaliate. But because Ramsay dies this season, those abilities completely vanish because the plot does not require them. So where once he could infiltrate an enemy camp, wipe out their supplies and get back before anyone noticed, in season 6 an army occupies a crucial fortress in the north, stays there for months, marches north to winterfell and still takes him completely by surprise. See also LF being dumb enough to give Sansa to the Boltons, but smart enough to siply cruise through anyway. 

I can say with all honesty that GOT is one of the worst abusers of the "idiot ball" trope I've seen in a primetime series.  

[The Dragon Demands]

Why Dorne Failed in the Game of Thrones TV series - 4 hour documentary in two parts:

 

 

Weeks of research went into these.

[Darkstream]

7 hours ago, StepStark said:

Speaking of the spirit, this guy captured it perfectly:

 

Thanks for the link StepStark, an excellent analysis. I got a good chuckle - although a disheartening one - from the bit at the end referring to the broken man episode, and whether d$d would prove him wrong. Words of a sweet, sweet summer child, that ship has long since sailed.

7 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

<snip>

Going from that to Season 6 is jarring not because of missing characters, but because the sensationalist nature of GOT in it's current form ignores consequence all the time. Deaths and battles are more frequent than ever, yet the consequences of them are nowhere to be seen.  

Well said, and I agree with your entire post. However,  I can't stress enough how much I agree with the bolded. (For who's benefit I wish to stress this, I'm sure you know who you are.)

[Darkstream]

Oh, and a question for you all, perhaps I missed it during my mind-numbing attempt to stay attentive throughout an entire episode; Did the show actually confirm Rhaegar as Jon's father?

I do recall some unsullied coming away from the Lyanna/toj scene thinking that Ned and Lyanna were Jon's parents.   And as far as I've seen most unsullied don't even know who Rhaegar is.

I'd appreciate someone refreshing my memory. It's been a while since I've watched the show, and I really cannot bring myself to watch it again.

[Pink Fat Rast]

2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Well said, and I agree with your entire post. However,  I can't stress enough how much I agree with the bolded. (For who's benefit I wish to stress this, I'm sure you know who you are.)

Ayy lol so you failed to argue your point yourself and now someone else saying "sensationalism" is supposed to make up for that?

I would've thought the "no consequences" part was the more important bit of that post (and also the one with a concrete statement, at least), but hey who knows right


PS: Hm, the consequence of BoB was that they retook WF, but maybe he was was referring to something else.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Oh, and a question for you all, perhaps I missed it during my mind-numbing attempt to stay attentive throughout an entire episode; Did the show actually confirm Rhaegar as Jon's father?

I do recall some unsullied coming away from the Lyanna/toj scene thinking that Ned and Lyanna were Jon's parents.   And as far as I've seen most unsullied don't even know who Rhaegar is.

I'd appreciate someone refreshing my memory. It's been a while since I've watched the show, and I really cannot bring myself to watch it again.

No, it was not confirmed but HBO released a diagram or something in its web that says so, apparently.

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No, it was not confirmed but HBO released a diagram or something in its web that says so, apparently.

Oh right, thanks Meera.

I forgot that understanding the show requires you to either be a book reader, or watch all of the bonus shows and diagrams that d$d need to put out, in order for their show to be comprehensive. Lol.

---

Off topic:

 

As for FPR's response. My argument was sound. I'm just pointing out another example of a word being used in a situation, that he claims it cannot be, and would refer to anyone using it in this way as " unbelievably dense."

 

[Pink Fat Rast]

They clearly made a point out of concealing what Lyanna whispered to him - so to say the scene/episode/show was "under the illusion of having confirmed R+L while actually relying on websites", makes no sense at all.

Or it makes no sense for NOW - depending on how S7 is gonna pick up on that or what interview comments might surface, that could easily change of course.

[Meera of Tarth]

21 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Oh right, thanks Meera.

I forgot that understanding the show requires you to either be a book reader, or watch all of the bonus shows and diagrams that d$d need to put out, in order for their show to be comprehensive. Lol.

Off topic:

 

  Hide contents

As for FPR's response. My argument was sound. I'm just pointing out another example of a word being used in a situation, that he claims it cannot be, and would refer to anyone using it in this way as " unbelievably dense."

 

 

Your welcome!

Yeah, LOL, but don't read them all (in the case of diagrams and family trees). Sometimes it is even more confusing. For instance, Sansa is listed as Lady of Winterfell (while Jon is KITN) and some people get confused and think that now there are two titles.

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-6/episode-10/houses/4/house-stark

I suppose there are not, but I could be wrong and they could have created them offscreen.  After all, the title of Lady of Winterfell appears just after s6.10, not before (eventhough she has always been a Lady/Princess of WF, like Arya).

That makes me ask who inherits which parts of the castle. And, in that case, why on Earth Bran (the rightful heir of the North!) doesn't have a tittle on his own in the leaks of s7.

[Pink Fat Rast]

6 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

This is also an example of the lack of consequences I mentioned above. The problem is, Ramsay was set up last season as if he's some kind of super scout who know's the land so well he and his twenty good man can sink Stannis without him ever knowing or being able to retaliate. But because Ramsay dies this season, those abilities completely vanish because the plot does not require them. So where once he could infiltrate an enemy camp, wipe out their supplies and get back before anyone noticed, in season 6 an army occupies a crucial fortress in the north, stays there for months, marches north to winterfell and still takes him completely by surprise.

Technically falling victim to the same thing you pulled on someone else (i.e. sneaking into their territory unnoticed) isn't a direct "contradiction" - but it still makes no sense, so yeah.

6 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

See also LF being dumb enough to give Sansa to the Boltons, but smart enough to siply cruise through anyway. 

Don't think him being "too dumb" was ever confirmed, it seemed more like he was callous enough to gamble on it and then when Sansa made it out safe he just said whatever would most probably win back her trust (i.e. apologizing, swearing ignorance, and what not).

But, again, the ability to sneak through enemy territory isn't really directly at odds with not knowing the character of some bastard. I'm still not sure if that's supposed to make sense or not - in the same show, LF also could get away with claiming KL had Arya when it didn't, so I'm not sure about anything right now.

Just doesn't make sense on its own.

[StepStark]

22 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

They clearly made a point out of concealing what Lyanna whispered to him - so to say the scene/episode/show was "under the illusion of having confirmed R+L while actually relying on websites", makes no sense at all.

Then how do you explain the fact that they concealed it in the show but revealed it on the website?

[StepStark]

7 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Don't think him being "too dumb" was ever confirmed, it seemed more like he was callous enough to gamble on it and then when Sansa made it out safe he just said whatever would most probably win back her trust (i.e. apologizing, swearing ignorance, and what not).

Giving away the person the show itself declared "Key to The North"? That's not outright dumb? What is then???

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

That makes me ask who inherits which parts of the castle. And, in that case, why on Earth Bran (the rightful heir of the North!) doesn't have a tittle on his own in the leaks of s7.

Yeah, it's really sad that the true, rightful heir is not even allotted a tiny little slice of the pie; Instead, he's reduced to a exposition machine, and a very poor one at that, as the show is still confusing and requires outside sources for clarification. 

I'm weeping right there with you.

[Pink Fat Rast]

15 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Then how do you explain the fact that they concealed it in the show but revealed it on the website?

Either miscommunication, or the "incomplete reveal" in the show was just to tease it out dramatically, the "confirmation" isn't gonna be a "big reveal moment" next season (but maybe just some "emotional" scene where Bran reflects on it or talks about it with someone) and they thought dancing around the issue all the way until then would be corny?

All those scenarios are totally possible, I don't read the website anyway