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Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]


Little Scribe of Naath

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the worst we could have is:

Sansa: Jon is King in the North. I wanted to be Queen and I will ally wiTh LF

Bran: "hello....I am back". wait.....where is Meera? Don't leave me here alone!"....

,Sansa, LF is not good....he reminds me of something bad....

Sansa: Jon is KITN and will hunt a Wight for Cersei. LF helped him in tbotb....

Arya: I would like to hunt a Wight but for some reason I want to stay here. I am tired of not being at home.

LF: I will play teenage games with both of you girls!

........so I suppose we will have something in between. There must be something more than the leaks. But of course the core of WF will be what we already know.

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On 6/8/2017 at 4:26 PM, CaptainTheo said:

I think ramping up Robb's role was a good idea, but I also thought he came across as more stupid/selfish (as did the person who did the YouTube clips) in the TV show than in the books. In the books he puts Jeyne's honour ahead of his own, which yes, I still think was stupid because he was pledged to another (as do Jaime and Tyrion) but at least there was some honour involved. In the TV show it came across as him spitting on a holy vow and ignoring his mother's advice, out of pure selfishness. He even repeatedly went out of his way to get to know Talisa unlike in the books when he got caught in a weak moment.

That said, the Red Wedding was still shocking and effective in the TV series!

I don't think it was stupidity.  We are talking about a kid who wasn't exactly raised around the drama and the cutthroat nature of the iron throne and it's politics.  He has always enjoyed being the son of the best friend of the King.  He is just a naive boy and doesn't really understand or get that your allies today could be the enemy tomorrow.  It didn't help he won every battle.  And his mom let Jamie go, which ultimately lead to the releationship between Roose and Jamie and the Freys.  Hell Jon had to learn the same lessons, Robb just didn't have a red priestess, not that it would have mattered without a head.

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Robb marrying Jeyne means he actually the life and the honor of someone insignificant above everything else. It is several times mentioned there is really nothing to gain for Robb to marry her, she brings no armies, she brings no gold, her beauty isn't worth to lose a kingdom,  

Nobody thinks her worthy except for Robb. Robb did it to save her honor. 

 

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13 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Robb marrying Jeyne means he actually the life and the honor of someone insignificant above everything else. It is several times mentioned there is really nothing to gain for Robb to marry her, she brings no armies, she brings no gold, her beauty isn't worth to lose a kingdom,  

Nobody thinks her worthy except for Robb. Robb did it to save her honor. 

 

Yeah, Robb comes off looking better in the books. Had the show writers been so set on "modernizing" Robb and Jeyne by making her more proactive, they could've found a more believable way to do so in the setting. 

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On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 2:43 PM, The Coconut God said:

I don't think stunt casting or favoring a good actor are inherently bad. You could say Fargo does stunt casting. Martin Freeman, Kirsten Dunst, Ewan McGregor and Mary Elizabeth Winstead are HUGE names, you're not going to put them in a TV show unless you want to turn heads.

You didn't pay attention to any of my video.

As I said:  Stunt-Casting actually isn't inherently bad, but it isn't inherently good either.  It needs to be supported by writing.
 

No.  You cite how Breaking Bad expanded certain characters -- yet even Vince Gilligan said that he had to support this with *rewrites*, and he had to resist the temptation to just point the camera at the actors and let them ad-lib.

 

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- Yes, stunt casting. Also chemistry with Robb.
- The story based on true love and defying medieval marriage customs is more likely to resonate with a modern audience than marrying a woman because you "dishonored" her. Show Robb is also a bit too mature to make that mistakes, so the story we have in the book for a 16 years old boy is not going to work as well with the character on screen. They really wanted the Red Wedding to be a shocking, effective moment in the series, and this required the modern audience to be on board with Robb's decision instead of thinking he is some idiotic prude who can't keep it in his pants (Also, the theme is not THAT unusual in the ASoIAF series, there are characters like the Prince of Dragonflies who marry for love).
And the last point, I believe, is the most interesting:

No.  - the part where I said this had *nothing* to do with "maybe a romance would work better with a modern audience" but PURELY: "We want to show off Richard Madden as a romantic lead". 

 

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- Talisa's character was a clever way to introduce us to Volantis, and (before they decided to kill her off) a familiar character they could have used once Volantis became an active location for the show. Ignore the retrospect for a second and imagine you are plotting out the show's second season. Dance just came out, and you know Tyrion and Quentin will travel to Volantis, and in time Dany may end up conquering Volantis with the help of a faction of insiders. Would it have been that hard to believe that Talisa, disillusioned by the savagery of Westeros and hunted down by the Lannisters, would return to her home town to play the part of the aptly named Widow of the Waterfront?

NO.  Pay attention.  The ENTIRE SECTION of the video where I explain "this didn't set up Volantis at all"...MUCH LESS was "clever". Oh if they'd planned it out better, it actually might have been, but was so poorly executed it didn't.  They didn't include many real details about Volantis nor did it have any impact when we actually saw Volantis.
 

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I think Talisa is a very interesting case. I know a lot of the book purists hate her, and I know Linda hates her a lot, but at a production level, this change appears to make a lot of sense. Think about it:

- It avoids confusion with other pretty white women on the show, like Sansa, Dany, Ygritte, Margery, Rose, Cersei, Melisandre. Oona looks strikingly different and has an exotic name, so average viewers are less likely to confuse her with other characters or ask themselves if she is a Lannister relative.

 

By the Smith's hammer.....this is absurd,

Oona Chaplin looks like Jeyne Westerling in the books, due to Jeyne having a foreign great-grandmother.

NO, the "change" we're discussing WAS NOT....changing the race of the character/actress! 

A - It isn't the change to the story,

B -.....her race actually wasn't really changed.

Pay attention.

The "change" was making it a Romance.  how...wha...how...I'm flabberghasted.

"Not confuse her with other pretty white women".....wow.  This had nothing to do with race but story changes.

On top of this....and ANYONE replying to this respond to this point directly, do not DO NOT let it slide:

You think casual viewers can't tell the difference between different white women characters, apparently unable to remember their, you know, DIFFERENT NAMES.........and yet you think they will remember the "exotic" name of the ACTRESS, Oona Chaplin, never uttered on-screen?

On top of this, and to your shame....

"Sansa, Dany, Ygritte, Margaery, Rose, Cersei, Melisandre"

1 - .......you listed "Rose Leslie", THE ACTRESS, in a list of fictional characters from the show.

2 - .....you listed "Rose Leslie" in THE SAME LIST as the CHARACTER she plays, Ygritte.

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The character switch and the idea of turning their arc into a love story is something that happened very early on, before they started working on the scripts.


NO.
Pay attention. 
It was explicitly a last-minute rewrite after they were already in production on Season 2. 
NO it had nothing to do with "modern audiences wouldn't get honor vs romance".
They STATED, verbatim, "we did this to show off Richard Madden as a romantic lead". 

EDIT:  Look you don't really seem up to speed on this and I'm not sure if you watched my whole exhaustive video analysis of this.  If you didn't have time, please check it out in full, you really need to re-assess what you're saying.
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@The Dragon Demands I have to confess I only skimmed your video and addressed a few of the larger points I thought you were trying to make (stunt casting and actor pandering). You can't really ask me to watch the whole three hours, pay attention, and make a point by point analysis. While I respect your effort, that is a bit presumptuous... :P

The rest of my post is my own interpretation of why they made that particular change, and an attempt to contrast it with other changes that were a lot worse and a lot harder to justify - underlying that the overall writing is the issue, not the things they decide to change when they outline the season early on. You don't need to take that list as a direct response to your video.

Also, you claim it is absurd to believe the average viewer will confuse characters, but it really is not. Honest Trailes even makes fun of that. This is why the show changed Asha's name to Yara. It's standard practice. And due to the build up for the Red Wedding it is important that this character doesn't get confused. (P.S. While yes, it was a mistake on my part, I was referring to Ros, the original character from the early seasons, not Rose Leslie the actress).

Another thing to note is that producers and actors will often try to humanize the production process in order to make it more appealing to the viewers. When they focus on the relationships they have and how much they admire each other, and how they serendipitously come up with ideas, half of it is a publicity stunt. So take it with a grain of salt when D&D say how much they admire Richard Madden or Indira Varga, and how they wanted to put their talents to the test. They're not going to reveal to viewers exactly how they try to hook them (well, not you or me, but the demographics that actually are hooked).

It makes enough sense for a visual medium adaptation to focus on Robb rather than Cat, and it makes enough sense to make their relationship a love story in order to appeal to a wider audience and get viewers invested, that you can make the reasonable assumption that it wasn't just about their hard-on for Richard Madden's acting. If you're going to listen to everything D&D claim in their promotional material, you'll also need to accept that they consider the show a very faithful adaptation... and not even they can say that with a straight face.

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Agreed @The Dragon Demands

Talissa may not have been such a glaring issue to viewers, because the rest of the show still made up for it. But it was badly written and it was anachronistic and it took away from far more important characters and plot, and mischaracterized Robb. I didn't hate Talissa (I was only starting to read aGoT), but it always felt off. I zoned out on most of the scenes between Robb and Talissa. And I'd rather have had Weasel Soup in S3 than more Talissa.

Your point is that Talissa was the first bad writing on the wall of what has now totally ruined the show in every of the seven kingdoms, not doing any actual service for the actors (favored or no), except grabbing money I guess. S6 last year was like watching a string of audition clips of actors in costume and decor. Just don't watch them together and expect a coherent story to come out of it. 

I'm not watching S7 this year. I'll read synopsis, read some review threads here, go to youtube and pick out the scene to watch that might be interesting purely from a cinematographic viewing (stunt scenes), and some scenes of characters that aren't butchered (yet completely). Scenes with Sandor, Gendry and Bran, Davos, some battle scenes, Arya meeting Nymeria, the wight hunt (awful logic, but likely beautiful action scene), RLJ scenes, and LF's execution. I couldn't care less about Carol and the whole KL shenanigans. So I'm certainly not gonna watch those clips. Care nothing for Ellaria. Not watching those. The less Tyrion I see now the better. Larry is totally unwatchable unless he is in his proper arc and can be Jaime - so only scene I'll be watching is him dumping Carol. Greyjoy scenes aren't on my watch list either. And I'm totally lukewarm about Jon-Dany scenes that aren't action scenes. Basically, S7 will be what? 1 hour of clips I'll be watching in total.   

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4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Talissa may not have been such a glaring issue to viewers, because the rest of the show still made up for it. But it was badly written and it was anachronistic and it took away from far more important characters and plot, and mischaracterized Robb.

I think complaining about mischaracterization in an adaptation is a trap. A character doesn't need to be the same as the original to be good, it needs to be consistent and compelling. You can give a character a different plot and a different personality, and they can still be just as good, or better, or simply more suited for your adaptation.

I dislike this trap because it risks undermining the real criticism that the show justly deserves; you are criticizing a change at a level where it hasn't become a problem yet, and where you can be reasonably be countered, so your argument bogs down before you get to the real issues.

Talisa did not change Robb all that much (he was still honorable, he was still a good commander and charismatic leader, he still made very poor political choices that ultimately led to his doom), and ultimately didn't undermine the Red Wedding arc. The bad writing in their scenes was not as bad as many other examples of bad writing on the show.

Shae in season 4 is a much better example of extremely poor character development (and this is an actress George himself said he liked, so you can't challenge the way they used her up to that point). Her personality changed wildly to accommodate scenes and events from the book, to the point it made no sense by the end. In fact, Shae would have been much better if they nixed her death scene and turned her into Tysha 2.0 instead (or something else entirely): a better result achieved by veering even more away from the book.

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2 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

you are criticizing a change at a level where it hasn't become a problem yet

No, we're pointing out the first time something was done that later on fucked the whole show. Talissa in S3 is the stone being dropped in a pond. Shae is a bigger stone following after in S4. Sansa and Alleria are 2 big boulders being dumped in the pond in S5. It's been raining stones and pebbles since then. And now we have a heavily standing wavefront with interference of peaks and burroughs. 

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I think complaining about mischaracterization in an adaptation is a trap. A character doesn't need to be the same as the original to be good, it needs to be consistent and compelling.

In theory I'd agree, but in practice for this show I can't. Because they don't write "character logic", and it isn't consistent and compelling. You argue that it's because they're bad writers. Well as long as they stick closer to characterization and the plot following out of that characterization they're writing is doable. It's when they go on their own and "off-script" that the writing is not up to par or downright horrible. And when do they start to invent their own stuff that's "not good" to "unwatchable"? When they write for the actors, instead of the characters.

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11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, we're pointing out the first time something was done that later on fucked the whole show.

Talisa didn't fuck up the story. Dany's arc in Qarth was worse than Talisa & Robb. Their love story and slightly anachronistic values were benign and a matter of taste; Robb's character was never inconsistent on the screen, merely different from the books - something the age difference alone could explain. Rag-tag Dany threatening the 13 at the gates of Qarth was actually out of character entirely based on her portrayal and experiences in season one.

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10 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

Talisa didn't fuck up the story. Dany's arc in Qarth was worse than Talisa & Robb. Their love story and slightly anachronistic values were benign and a matter of taste; Robb's character was never inconsistent on the screen, merely different from the books - something the age difference alone could explain. Rag-tag Dany threatening the 13 at the gates of Qarth was actually out of character entirely based on her portrayal and experiences in season one.

You misunderstood my meaning, but the mistake is not of your making.

I'm not trying to say that Talissa fucked up the whole story. I'm trying to say that the MO of "writing for the actor" (in that particular case Robb) is what fucks up the show, and Talissa as romance for Robb is one of the early confimed evidence we have out of it. That evidence has been put forward and laid out in the videos you haven't watched, and say you won't watch.

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57 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

In theory I'd agree, but in practice for this show I can't. Because they don't write "character logic", and it isn't consistent and compelling. You argue that it's because they're bad writers. Well as long as they stick closer to characterization and the plot following out of that characterization they're writing is doable. It's when they go on their own and "off-script" that the writing is not up to par or downright horrible. And when do they start to invent their own stuff that's "not good" to "unwatchable"? When they write for the actors, instead of the characters.

Adapting stuff is unavoidable if you're going to turn the books into a tv show. Many things are going to be motivated by air time, the money you need for actors, locations and effects, how confusing you think it might be for viewers, how well you think you can translate something to the screen. No matter how good or bad a writer you are, you're going to have to do it. To top it all, you can't translate PoVs in a visual medium, especially not as many in only 10 episodes per season.

What they needed was a better process and more writers. I believe D&D write most of the episodes, and there were only 2 other writers per season. They probably have to rush it to get everything done between seasons and actually have time for casting and production, there is no time to double check and polish things. Shit gets thrown about and they hope they stick. As producers, they should have focused on overall plotting and relegate the actual episode scripts to other writers with strict guidelines about character personality and the more important points that need to be touched upon in the episode.

You misunderstood my meaning, but the mistake is not of your making.

I'm not trying to say that Talissa fucked up the whole story. I'm trying to say that the MO of "writing for the actor" (in that particular case Robb) is what fucks up the show, and Talissa as romance for Robb is one of the early confimed evidence we have out of it. That evidence has been put forward and laid out in the videos you haven't watched, and say you won't watch.

I did watch what I believe to be enough to get the point, and I simply don't think this is the real problem. It might be a crutch for them because they have a problem coming up with ideas in the little time they have to write the scripts, but it's the execution that is the problem, not the idea.

Take Dorne for example. The problem wasn't that they made Ellaria vengeful. The problem was the plotting and dialogue of that entire arc (with a bit of directing issues too, but those were also rooted in writing, since D&D relied too much on the fight scene with the Sand Snakes being cool and ultimately its set-up was ridiculous).

Again, the way Dorne developed in season 6 was absurd. They could have achieved the same result if Jaime or Cersei killed Tristane and Doran died of grief after receiving his head in a gilded box, leading to Tyene becoming princess and Ellaria ruling from the shadows. But they just blazed through it with probably whatever idea they came up with first.

I'm not going to deny that they sometimes seem to be writing stuff out of spite, though. But it's still classify that as "lack of proper process".

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Well, apparently I'm talking Chinese and you keep making points that I nor others disagree with when it comes to adaptations. There are plenty of adaptations I love that aren't "purist". In theory, I have no issue with that. So, you're preaching to the wrong person. I already have the insight that characters will be merged, that subplots will be cut, that POV won't be followed on screen because it's another medium, that context or setting may get updated to appeal for a modern audience, yadyadayada, ... But for this show the result of those changes are downright horrible. Even if I watch it as alternative-Westeros it's no better than the worst fanfic out there. These S7 spoilers make me wish we had Aegon after all. The show is turning me into an aSoIaF purist.

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, apparently I'm talking Chinese and you keep making points that I nor others disagree with when it comes to adaptations. There are plenty of adaptations I love that aren't "purist". In theory, I have no issue with that. So, you're preaching to the wrong person. I already have the insight that characters will be merged, that subplots will be cut, that POV won't be followed on screen because it's another medium, that context or setting may get updated to appeal for a modern audience, yadyadayada, ... But for this show the result of those changes are downright horrible. Even if I watch it as alternative-Westeros it's no better than the worst fanfic out there. These S7 spoilers make me wish we had Aegon after all. The show is turning me into an aSoIaF purist.

It's just the contrast between consistent and inconsistent characters and situations. Part of me hopes that with the wild changes they're making they will at least not spoil the books too much. The season 7 spoilers make it look like a board game session, I have big doubts much of what happens there will play out like that (or at all) in the books.

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5 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I have big doubts much of what happens there will play out like that (or at all) in the books

Hence, I'm only watching cherry picked youtube clips this season.

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On 6/10/2017 at 7:56 AM, Tijgy said:

Robb marrying Jeyne means he actually the life and the honor of someone insignificant above everything else. It is several times mentioned there is really nothing to gain for Robb to marry her, she brings no armies, she brings no gold, her beauty isn't worth to lose a kingdom,  

Nobody thinks her worthy except for Robb. Robb did it to save her honor.

Robb and Jeyne is the better story by far. But even all on its own Robb and Talisa is dull as dirt and makes no damn sense. I was glad when she made her exit, I just wish her presence hadn't messed up the Red Wedding scene.

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4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Robb and Jeyne is the better story by far. But even all on its own Robb and Talisa is dull as dirt and makes no damn sense. I was glad when she made her exit, I just wish her presence hadn't messed up the Red Wedding scene.

Why was she even there? That made no goddamn sense. 

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