Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

The rest of my previous post was about why this argument isn't 100% valid. But moving past that, other than people who read the books or theories online, did the idea of a will or lack thereof occur to anybody? Probably not, because there wasn't a single mention of it. Not in season 3, not in season 6. So I still don't think the show gave Talisa a pregnancy to go around a problem they never included.

I mean that's kinda like saying the spice King sold citrus to Braavos in season 2 so Arya could land on oranges when she wolverines around in season 6. Nobody said anything about oranges and Braavos in season 2 and nobody said anything about oranges and the spice king in season 6. So am I supposed to believe the spice King was added so Arya could land on a soft surface in the middle of her nonsensical action sequence in season 6? 

Well, I'm not saing they made her preggers for that reason, but I said it was the "ripple effect".

[sweetsunray]

37 minutes ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

You forgot the Citadel storyline. Sam heals Jorah. He should get the nobel price for medicine. Gilly finds out that Rhaegar annuled his marriage from Elia and married Lyanna. That sounds almost good compared to the wight hunt and Larry and Cheyril having a baby

Oh, yeah... How about calling that one..."Sam & Gilly the Miracle Team"

[sweetsunray]

Here's the link to the poll: https://nl.surveymonkey.com/r/HWKXFJ6

[CaptainTheo]

7 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

And the KITN scene is probably one of the most stupid scenes that the show has ever created. It's insanely stupid. Sansa is there and Jon was not a Hero at all. He failed as a Commander... He is KITN because Jon is one of the big four, period. And let's forget about Bran as well......(they mention him several times.....) but with Sansa there really???? And with the previous scene when Jon and Sansa discuss about what they want.....and Jon doesn't want to rule!!!;!!! And is happy Sansa should!!!!!!bit then....oh no. I'm KITN sister.

Agreed. I hated the KiTN scene - it felt clichéd and entirely unoriginal and Jon didn't even do anything to earn the title. I thought of Sansa and Jon as 'dumb and dumber' in this season. (Sure, Cersei and Ellaria were dumber still but that's normal for them.) Jon in particular - it felt like dying made him stupider. Much earlier in the season, he made it clear he was still Lord Commander of the Night's Watch after his "death" because he executed the mutineers, and then he immediately deserted, a crime punishable by (a second) death. Not only did he come across as an oathbreaker - he came across as a coward.

He should be on the list of instances of desertion on this page: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Desertion.

[Meera of Tarth]

5 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Drop what you're doing and watch my videos.

The ENTIRE POINT of them is that YOUR interpretation, personal interpretation of the TV show, is trying to come up with rationalizations or justifications that make sense, which they never thought of.

NO, not with "a grain of salt" -- it extends to the point that they say in commentaries "look at what a powerful player Theon is" while he's being tortured, until it becomes blatantly obvious they're describing the actors' ability to emote.

I read your posts in a sing-song voice:  "oh, we shouldn't judge, TV is different, and just because it's different doesn't mean it's bad."

We ARE NOT "book purists".  Even as TV fans, this was jut plain bad writing.

And the entire point I express in my videos is that it isn't even "this is a different, TV-continuity fictional character I dislike" but....dear god, it's just stunt-casting the actor.  There IS NO fictional character.

@sweetsunray  Painful as it is, I hope you do watch Season 7 - not "watch" to enjoy, but "watch" in order to gain more ammo to criticize it.

One of my major points is that the TV fanbase got so insulted by Benioff and Weiss that we stopped checking out their interviews or DVD commentaries....in which they actually got sloppy and admitted the embarrassing real reasons they did things.  Statements so bizarre they would destroy their careers, or at least severely harm them.

It's sort of like someone saying to Varys, "LIttlefinger offends me so much with his lies that I'm going to stop listening to anything he says"....not "heeding", but "listening"....meaning you can't "scrutinize" them.....for stupid mistakes to use against him later. 

Another option to watch a show you don't like because it has turned into stupid plots it's watching it as a B comedy. Try to laugh. AT first, it's difficult, but I tried doing it in season 6 and it worked.

However, as I still enjoy some arcs/characters I had some difficulties changing my mood depending on the scene. It was like oh, Tyrion.....this scene is gonna be "White-washed Tyrion":

"how can they write this", "Missandei, Greyworm, I'm with you! Don't drink! ", and the line when they tell Tyrion that he is a King now and he was a slave some episodes ago....", or..."I'm not the breaker of chains...": like..really? you broke the dragon's chains!!!!....these was good laughing material.

but also:

oh, now it's Bran's turn. Ok. This is serious......

It's like mental gymnastics....

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Here's the link to the poll: https://nl.surveymonkey.com/r/HWKXFJ6

Good! I'm just gonna vote!!!!!

(I will confess that I kind of like the NK having a dragon, 'cause Jon is stupid, -although, at the same time- I think the dragon doesn't deserve it. They spent many seasons without food (does anyone feed them?) or light until Super Tyrion comes into their rescue). This show is not fan of the animals, although they treat the direwolves with much less respect. But it's not the dragon's fault, it's Jon's and Dany's because in these leaks they are DUMB)

-I also love part of the Citadel leaks. In a world where Cersei gets everything after killing everyone, and Jonerys have sex, Tyrion becomes a Regent, etc. GOOD and Honest people like Sam and Gilly deserve to be Smart and discover things (even if that doesn't make sense in the timeline....they need more time)-- I hate that Gilly discovers that Rhaegar annulled the marriage (he could not get divorced?, so as then name JOn Aegon, which is WORSE if it ends up being true).

[The Dragon Demands]

Something I thought of just pondering today...

 

....all the people you see in comments sections who *blindly adore* D&D and their TV changes, and will go on long rants saying "it's great". 

but I mean, just vague "it's great" adjectives.....not a measured response of "I honestly think this was adding nuance to that character".

Which is of course a tell that they're just spewing blind, non-thinking adoration.

And I keep coming back to how even *I* was fooled for a while.  Even Season 1 I thought they must be good writers.  And while I ...."disagreed" with them starting in Season 2, I thought they were still rational writers making decisions I didn't like.  Not "just plain incompetent".  But I mean cited quotes, post-Season 6, that PBS interviews where Benioff admits "we had no idea how the logistics of film making work, only script writing" when they started.   Just how unqualified they were. 

But then they hit a breaking point in Season 5, and at least a large number of people admitted there were problems.  I mean there are die-hards who rationalize, mindlessly, "this was an improvement over the lousy fourth and fifth novels".

I think it all comes down to "celebrity culture".

Simply....why do people love the NFL, still, after the concussion scandal?  Or actors (and athletes) who are celebrities....that people adore even after details of their horrific personal lives come out.

Example:  there are still rabid Johnny Depp fans....even after his domestic abuse incidents were revealed.  And okay maybe he's got issues and it isn't black and white but.....I'm talking the worst case scenarios.

Big on TV here in America and swept the Emmys last year, that dramatization of the OJ Simpson trial.  And it's this big commentary on celebrity culture.  Before that, people just loved "OJ Simpson" the ...'character' they perceived on TV, from sports, movies, and commercials.

And they had 911 emergency tapes, hard evidence audio tapes, of domestic battery incidents - of OJ shouting like a monster, undeniable evidence that he was beating his wife....

.....and everyone still loves the really likable persona he projects of being this really great friendly guy.  Hell, maybe he isn't even acting (it really seemed to be just an act), but he never showed a hint of remorse for the confirmed domestic abuse cases.

So why do so many people blindly praise D&D?  I mean even today, in threads over on WOTW, I'm seeing people saying they DO NOT want a prequel based on World of Ice and Fire "because Elio & Linda wrote it, and they hate D&D" and they'd love D&D to still be attached to it....

I think after a while celebrity culture just sets in.  They were really good at marketing themselves (some writers stick to behind the camera).  Every promo video.  Created a false sense of honesty and friendship.

People just...project what they want to onto celebrities, to build them up as what they want them to be. 

In the past week, the news jumped on that Battlestar Galactica's Ron Moore admitted very publicly that he never had a plan for the story, it just rambled into a corner....NO this isn't "architect vs gardener", even gardeners have outlines.  But he said that when the show ended as well:  There NEVER WAS a plan, he was flat out lying to hook viewers.  Basically the "Lost" effect, BSG and Heroes copied that.  GRRM later said that by the end BSG was every insulting for just writing itself into a corner.

But....AT THE TIME, I was a blind fanatic.  I even met Moore once on the rope line at a con and was enthralled.  And I remember hanging on his every word like he was some sage genius.  And I realize...I *wanted* it to be true.  I wanted it to have some actual thought put into it, and not "I just made it up from week to week".  Hard to convey in words just how strongly I believed it, even DEFENDED them against those accusing they weren't planning the show out. 

Of course, they were constantly bragging "We planned this out", so when they didn't it was a huge shock that they'd just openly lie like that. 

So I think a lot of people blindly praise D&D because they want them to be good.

And I'm disgusted at myself for mistaking Season 1 successes as them really planning things out well (which I later got confirmation they didn't).  Because early on, we hoped they'd be the next Peter Jackson.  That's the narrative, isn't it?  "Great new show comes along with well-qualified writers who interact with the fans regularly with Q&A and open transparency".....when we didn't get that, when they started ignoring Talisa questions in Season 2....I started souring, but still didn't want to believe it.

So succinctly I'm left asking, "Why do people ignore the shocking and repulsive personal lives of celebrities like movie stars and sports figures, choosing to believe that they resemble their fictional personas?"  Because it's sort of the same phenomenon. 

On top of this I read a nice article once about how the combination of social media with prestige TV is a bad thing, even compared to the Sopranos 10 years ago.   There's a difference between a well-written, structured, professional "Review" and a "Reaction".  All the "Reaction" videos to the Red Wedding were not "Reviews".

Dumb people want to feel important with minimal effort.  These days, any idiot with a Twitter handle can write a "Review" of a Breaking Bad episode, along the lines of "it was so good!"....not a structured analysis of technical aspects like cinematography.  I'm actually seen people arguing, "D&D are great because of the show's artwork like Cinematography, Editing, Music" etc.  And....dude....they aren't personally responsible for those.  Yes they do have some great directors and cinematographers working for them.  Yes, D&D themselves may have made some good choices with those.  But.....I see this from people who DO NOT KNOW what the cinematography being employed actually is.  Just "I like it".  "Okay, from an art school perspective, which use of camera angles was structurally great in it?" They don't know.

So I think this is all a big expression of "the hype" as they say:  an overlapping mix of celebrity culture and the rise of social media, which has fueled celebrity culture to new untold heights.  It isn't even "about" the TV show anymore, but about the reaction posts you make on Twitter about "Kit Harington was cool in this episode!" - a celebrity they never met, behaving like a stereotype of the role he originated.

(shrug)

I've submitted half a dozen panel applications to New York Comic Con yesterday.  I hope I do better than last year when they didn't accept any - not from me or anyone (no cast came that year).  I have hope it will be different this year because it makes a huge difference if you've run a panel at a prior local convention before that (it asks this on the application), and I did; instead of going straight for NYCC year after year I realized I needed to build up my resume on the local convention track first. 

With luck this means that I'll be running some panels at such a public venue, where I can actually give substantive criticisms of D&D and not just blind praise. 

Alea iacta est.  I found out in late August if any got in.

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

It isn't even "about" the TV show anymore, but about the reaction posts you make on Twitter 

And the memes, don't forget about the memes. If the show affords you the opportunity to post something like...let's say, a picture of Sandor eating a bucket of KFC with a witty caption, apparently that equates to GoT being a great, well thought out and written program worthy of an Emmy.

[The Dragon Demands]

I thought the entire Sandor chicken joke was funny, really....given that Cogman wrote it, and expressly said he was trying to copy the kind of posturing that happens in Western cowboy movies when two guys are facing each other across a table in a saloon right before a huge fight breaks out. 

I actually consider it a good line. 

Though I'm annoyed at how the morons care more about that than say, SanSan. 

Lest we forget that was still early Season 4 when the show was still fairly good. 

Dear god, the sharp drop in quality by Season 5 was just staggering.  Even relative to their earlier problems, which were at least 'under the radar" to the non-book readers.  No surprise:  the first year they wrote after the international mega-success of the Red Wedding.  Season 4 was already in the can (done writing) when that aired.  Mad with power. 

Well, look at what I'm saying:  WE all make twitter posts and memes about it, but to share our pain on stuff.  Or rather....

damn it, our memes are witty and thoughtful.

Casual viewer memes are just "quote lines you like on twitter".  Not like puns or sarcastic allusions to the books. 

Everything we've lost we'll take back.  I intend to humiliate Benioff and Weiss.  Then I will break them. 

Benioff and Weiss teach a man the real depths of Hate.

[Rhodan]

13 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

And I'm disgusted at myself for mistaking Season 1 successes as them really planning things out well (which I later got confirmation they didn't).  Because early on, we hoped they'd be the next Peter Jackson.  That's the narrative, isn't it?  "Great new show comes along with well-qualified writers who interact with the fans regularly with Q&A and open transparency".....when we didn't get that, when they started ignoring Talisa questions in Season 2....I started souring, but still didn't want to believe it.
 

 

I don´t like to "nagg retrospectively", but as I look back, even in season 1 there were some examples of bizzare writing which were easy to overlook at the time and we can see them as warning signs... Some instances of exposition ("Isn´t that house of your wife? Tully?") or worldbuilding (that Jorah quote about dragons I mentioned earlier).

[StepStark]

20 minutes ago, Rhodan said:

I don´t like to "nagg retrospectively", but as I look back, even in season 1 there were some examples of bizzare writing which were easy to overlook at the time and we can see them as warning signs... Some instances of exposition ("Isn´t that house of your wife? Tully?") or worldbuilding (that Jorah quote about dragons I mentioned earlier).

Season one gets a free pass on many things for some reason. But in reality, it is not much better than what followed. Possibly the only difference is that D&D got more brazen with time and glory, but yes even early on it was obvious that they possess neither respect for ASOIAF nor the idea how to adapt it skillfully.

[Gaz0680]

In Season 1, they did get a LOT right. Almost perfect casting, probably the best dialogue the show has had to date, and a much more cohesive story. However, I totally agree there were some problems with the writing even then and. Also a lot of filler.

The Littlefinger brothel scene in "You Win Or You Die" remains one of the most exaggerated, drawn out and ultimately pointless scenes in the entire series.

[StepStark]

59 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

In Season 1, they did get a LOT right. Almost perfect casting, probably the best dialogue the show has had to date, and a much more cohesive story. However, I totally agree there were some problems with the writing even then and. Also a lot of filler.

The Littlefinger brothel scene in "You Win Or You Die" remains one of the most exaggerated, drawn out and ultimately pointless scenes in the entire series.

But the thing is, "the best dialogue the show has had to date" is not a very high bar. The dialogue in the first season was good when it was taken directly from the books. In scenes D&D invented, it was usually disastrous. Maybe people should re-watch those silly Varys-Littlefinger scenes where they spar verbally and see how they look now. At the time there wasn't much critique, because everyone was so EXCITED for the simple fact that the show was made at all, but I honestly think that those scenes were as ridiculous as "bad pussy". Or what about Tyrion exchanging insults with Theon in WF, which is another example of absurd and aimless writing. Or what about the infamous hunting scene with Robert and Renly. And so on. Not all of D&D's scenes in the first season were as bad, but on the other hand I don't remember a single one that was actually good or even needed for the story.

[Rhodan]

3 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But the thing is, "the best dialogue the show has had to date" is not a very high bar. The dialogue in the first season was good when it was taken directly from the books. In scenes D&D invented, it was usually disastrous. Maybe people should re-watch those silly Varys-Littlefinger scenes where they spar verbally and see how they look now. At the time there wasn't much critique, because everyone was so EXCITED for the simple fact that the show was made at all, but I honestly think that those scenes were as ridiculous as "bad pussy". Or what about Tyrion exchanging insults with Theon in WF, which is another example of absurd and aimless writing. Or what about the infamous hunting scene with Robert and Renly. And so on. Not all of D&D's scenes in the first season were as bad, but on the other hand I don't remember a single one that was actually good or even needed for the story.

I confess I liked God of death stuff of Syrio and Arya.

[StepStark]

13 minutes ago, Rhodan said:

I confess I liked God of death stuff of Syrio and Arya.

I didn't because finding solace in the fact that you survived another day sounds too 21st century to me. But I agree that that scene is not absurd. I still much prefer Syrio and their scenes from the books, though, even that scene.

[Le Cygne]

6 hours ago, StepStark said:

Season one gets a free pass on many things for some reason. But in reality, it is not much better than what followed. Possibly the only difference is that D&D got more brazen with time and glory, but yes even early on it was obvious that they possess neither respect for ASOIAF nor the idea how to adapt it skillfully.

Yeah, Season 1 had some really big problems that showed a lack of respect with the source material (like they already made big missteps with Dany and Sansa).

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, Season 1 had some really big problems that showed a lack of respect with the source material (like they already made big missteps with Dany and Sansa).

Exactly. And please, don't let me start on Jaime. He ridicules Night's Watch lifelong vows! Really???!!! LOL! And what about Renly and Loras shaving each other!

[The Coconut God]

@The Dragon Demands Ok, I went and took a closer look at your videos. It really doesn't warrant the earful you gave me... and it doesn't affect the relevance of my original reply. We interpret some things differently, but in spite of what you might think, your reasoning is not really stronger than mine. Also, you could have said you did mention the bad writing and Talisa's exotic looks, it would have been better to open the subject directly instead of saving it as a "surprise"; it wasn't that impactful...

Ok, so let's begin. I'm going to have to split this into several points:

I. Framing everything as an explanation for the Honeypot Theory wasn't necessary. This is a really trite and basic theory that doesn't take a lot of thought to come up with, especially for book readers who knew there was some scheming involved with this relationship in the books. It's not shocking that it existed, you don't need to explain it, and D&D don't need to answer for it, regardless of how poorly they wrote that arc.

Actually analyzing the creative choices behind the change and the history of how it happened is a lot more interesting than that, so you might as well just dive into what matters. If you do remake your video, perhaps just mention it in passing.

Also, you're reaching way too much if you think this was actually D&D's original idea. That line about her writing a letter to the Lannister was probably meant as nothing more than their idea of flirt (and probably a deadpan way of telling us she's NOT a spy).

II. Here you seem shocked that they only began writing for season 2 after the premiere aired. Well, of course they did! Every show writes its scripts from one season to the next, even original shows that are much better than GoT (Fargo can have two years between seasons, but that is because every season is a different story with different characters and actors). This is not a crime and not an excuse.

They started outlining season 2 after it was greenlit by HBO, and that is when they realized they had to focus on Robb instead of Catelyn (which they absolutely had to, there was no workaround about this - in a book, getting bits and pieces of information about a character keeps you hooked, but on Tv it makes you forget they exist). This wasn't rushed, it was standard.

Even if Robb's story was the last thing they wrote and they had to work on it while other scenes were being filmed, this still falls within normal industries practice and it does not justify a poorly outlined plot arc or poorly written scenes. Your argument about "planning things in advance" is nonsense in this case. Nothing about changing Jeyne into Talisa clashed with Robb's established character from season 1 or the greater Red Wedding arc.

III. You are making the change sound overly complicated. First of all, you are reaching enormously when you say Oona Chaplin was cast because she looks like book Jeyne. She is described as having chestnut curls, a heart shaped face and brown eyes. Oona only matches the eyes - and there's no mention of Jeyne having olive skin, or any chilean features. She's also supposed to be shy, and I have a hard time imagining Oona being shy. She does however have good on-screen chemistry with Madden.

That part about Jeyne's grandmother made me chuckle. It's not that Jayne doesn't have any similarities with Maggy the Frog in the book. It's that you give D&D the credit of figuring out this minor connection and specifically casting someone to reflect the foreign ancestry (even though there's not much you can do with it on screen).

I mean, their planning and understanding of the books are usually piss poor, I think we all agree with that around here, but now that it suits your convoluted theory you are willing to put as much faith in them as it takes!

How about we just apply Occam's Razor instead? The character was always supposed to be Jeyne from Volantis, a love interest for Robb, so they cast a beautiful woman with an exotic look and good chemistry with Madden. Her name was the only last minute change. And, speaking of that...

IV. George's decision to change the name. You make it sound like an act of protest! How about this: the suggestion was simply George doing his job as a consultant on the show. He caught on the fact that she was from Volantis, and pointed out to D&D that "Jeyne" is not a Volantene name. He provided them with a suitable replacement, which they used. Mystery solved.

George has worked on Tv shows before, and I'm sure he is professional enough to understand that sometimes small sacrifices have to be made in the name of adaptation. Hell, he was completely on board and enthusiastic about the changes to Shae's character, because he liked Sybell Kekili as a person, and probably didn't want her character to be just a dumb whore.

Now, why Jeyne/Talisa from Volantis instead of Jeyne Westerling from the Crag? Easy.

We already established that the show has to flesh out Robb as a character, because Tv is all about "show, don't tell" and presenting his story from Cat's and other character's perspective would translate poorly on the screen. They had to actually show the events leading up to Robb marrying Jeyne. I can not stress enough how important this is. In a Tv adaptation, you absolutely cannot tell Robb's story through a bunch of scenes of Catelyn reading letters and talking about him with other characters, no matter how well this plays in the book. It would be the equivalent of telling Walter White's story from the perspective of Walter Jr's school breaks.

The first obvious problem was that these were scenes they had to write themselves. You can argue that their writing made the story worse, but, I will stress it again, was unavoidable.

The second, much more pragmatic issue, were the filming costs. The Crag would have been an entirely new location to film at, and an actual castle at that. Surely you can imagine this would have cost them more than propping a couple tents in a field.

And it wasn't just the location. If they wanted the story to make sense, they would have had to either:

a. Hire more actors and extras to play Jeyne's family and household.

b. Make Jeyne the lady of the castle, in which case they would have to actually show the battle, not only the aftermath, in order to establish her character.

Either way, this would take extra money, money, money, money - and this was merely the second season, with several big scenes, much more prominent CGI dragons, and a big battle at the end.

Tv producers always have to keep their budget in mind when they make creative choices. You can rest assure that the cost of filming this arc was on their mind when writing the script. It's not as if it was as easy as D&D wanting to follow the books and show Jeyne Westerling and the Crag. If they did that they would have had to cut costs somewhere else. Again, this fun little side of the story was unavoidable.

Hence, they decided Jeyne would just be a wandering noblewoman. But this made absolutely no sense for a Westerosi Lady, not to mention being Westerosi meant she had to be from some family that sooner or later was going to come into play, and that would have complicated things, so they made her Volantene. Ta-da!

Btw, it's absolutely logical that the introduction of Volantis would have been a consideration in light of the recently released Dance with Dragons. It is irrelevant that D&D ultimately didn't capitalize on it and ended up cutting most of the stuff that had to do Volantis. We're talking about what motivated the decision at that time. Judging it in retrospect only shows your lack of objectivity.

V. And this brings us to your actor pandering theory. I'm not saying this isn't part of D&D's m.o,, but it surely isn't the be all end all mystery solution you make it out to be.

I already listed the reasons why it was absolutely necessary for D&D to a. focus on Robb and b. turn Jeyne into a solitary travelers. Reasons that have to do with the requirements of the visual format and with budget constraints. Do you really believe D&D weren't faced with these way before the late casting and name change of Oona's character? Do you think they wanted to pander to Madden and accidentally shaved off a chunk of production costs and made the show more appealing to the teenage female demographic?

I like how basically base your whole argument on a single quote. Sure, you claim there are more, but you are telling your viewers  to look for them themselves (don't get me wrong, but you can't ask people to watch a 3 hour long presentation and do your research for you). Here's the quote: "In the TV show, we've spent more time focused on Robb than in the books, mainly because we like Richard Madden as an actor".

First of all, notice it says "mainly because", so surely there is room for my pragmatic, production related reasons as well. Second, this is just the kind of fluff people they say all the time in the industry. These are mainly promotional videos, they are making the production process seem friendly and sociable just like shaving cream commercials make shaving look like the best moment of your day. What did they want to say? "We didn't have money to make that", and make themselves look cheap and the characters unimportant? "We wanted more women to watch the show and statistically we think you'd find a romance with Madden hot"? No, they're gonna go for "Don't you just like Richard Madden? We think he's awesome too! Look how he inspires us! Aren't we like a happy family? Tune in and watch us on HBO."

Another thing to keep in mind is that they said that in June 2013, and in May 2013 Madden was cast as Prince Charming in Disney's Cinderella live action remake. It's not outside the realm of possibility that they made that comment either to create more buzz for Madden's new role or to associate themselves with the movie's future success. Sort of like "You see this lead in this major Disney movie? We made him."

VI. Now, some things I do agree with you about. D&D are impulsive, I somehow they get an eerie feeling they take revenge on characters whose actors they don't like or story arcs that didn't come off the way they wanted. They probably do pander to actors a bit - although that doesn't mean they're going to write them well, poor Shae can attest to that. I agree that they do twists just to show off and that they never say anything of substance in interviews. And most importantly that they are bad writers.

But this is generalized. In season 2, you can see it especially in Dany's arc. Just look at all these gems. The reason I got so invested in the Talisa issue (and this is something I've been mulling over way before I made this account) and cam as far as write this enormous post is that I think this arc is judged unfairly compared to everything else.

In terms of quality, this was one of the most benign changes they made; it just caught a lot of flack because it was the most different from the book, down to the character name. But in reality, Robb's character is not as affected by this as everyone claims. He is still a tragic hero who loses everything because he does what he believes is right. In the books, that means protecting Jeyne's honor, in the show it means following his heart. But the punch of the Red Wedding is not diminished, and show Robb, even with his preference for anachronistic women, does not flip flop from scene to scene.

And, of course, unlike an ocean of others, there are arguments in favor of this change that are logical enough to win me over - you can go on insisting D&D didn't think of them, but I'm not defending D&D (they are beyond that anyway), I am defending the change itself, which worked out decently no matter what their reason was.

I think it's very important to make the difference between valid criticism and irrational nitpicking. And unfortunately because the criticism about Talisa was the latter, book purists lost much of their credibility early on and they got ignored when their voices could have made positive changes in future seasons.

 

And that's it... I think. I hope this is the most I'll ever write in a single post around here... And you better not wake the dragon again, or I might have to bring the pot of molten gold...

[Le Cygne]

GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/

So yeah, Talisa just didn't work at all on a story level. But on a romance level, it didn't work, either. Robb is played by this really handsome actor, and lots of people were invested in the character. And he gets a love interest, but there was little interest from fans.

Because there was no spark there, once you got past the improbability of it all. They met, she sassed him, he gaped, they talked a bit, and then boom, they are in love and marry. And the sex scene is a snooze. She rambles on and on, and this show has a serious male gaze problem.

Most were disappointed the show gave Robb such a dud romance that never captured the fancy of the viewers. And that's not even getting into the I think I'll name him Eddard/stab her in the fetus ending that many rolled their eyes at, too.

[Le Cygne]

14 hours ago, StepStark said:

Exactly. And please, don't let me start on Jaime. He ridicules Night's Watch lifelong vows! Really???!!! LOL! And what about Renly and Loras shaving each other!

And then he shoved the White Book aside to have sex with his sister. Poor Jaime, he never had a chance.