Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[SecretWeapon]

I think that the reason Sansa didnt tell Jon was SUPPOSED to be LF instructions + she knew he'd fall into Ramsey's trap.

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, SecretWeapon said:

I think that the reason Sansa didnt tell Jon was SUPPOSED to be LF instructions

She trusts Littlefinger more than Jon? After everything? Does that seem like a good writing to you?

1 hour ago, SecretWeapon said:

+ she knew he'd fall into Ramsey's trap.

So she reads through Jon like a book but she's not able to influence him in any way. Really, does that seem like a good writing?

[Meera of Tarth]

15 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

While having a female director/writer/ANYONE contributing to a series doesn't automatically make something feminist (or good), it certainly can't hurt. Then there's just the crazy notion that women are actually GOOD at directing and writing and should be better represented in every medium. 

Remember when GOT debuted and there was all that hubbub about how it was misogynistic and didn't accurately represent medieval history and how it wouldn't appeal to female fans? I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but we've sure come a long way! Right? 

Right? 

you are right that it doesn't hurt but actually ot's something MORE than that.

About the crazy notion that women are GOOD at writing and directing.....what?????  Lots of women are GOOD writers and directors, just like lots of men are. That's a fact, and believing in the equality between men and women is called feminism.

it's easy. Women as PEOPLE should be represented in everything.

Why: Because PEOPLE= men and women. ABout 50% of people are men, about 50% of people are women. 

If you only have/want men to choose from, you will have only men. If there are more women selected, they will have done other writings and then they can have the possibility of being chosen (or not) amongst other writers. If there are only a few you won't choose them unless they have done something super brilliant or you are a good at investigating everyone and give the opportunity to them (a good female writer that doesn't necessarily have to be brilliant, like you would choose another male writer that is not necessarily super brilliant, but that there are lots of them being men and good-not brilliant).

Among screenwriters there are still less women but they are not unusual in other shows. I wonder why? Maybe because they are good? Or do you think they would be chosen if they were automatically  always bad? Please.

as far for GOT any other writer of any gender would be inventing something better. Proof: LEAKS OF SEASON 7 if they are to be believed. @sweetsunray created an amazing poll on them. (The reason of why this thread was created, btw).

...............................

I actually think that their notion of "appealing to female fans" has nothing to do with their views on women. The show is full of gratuitous sex scenes, prostitutes, sex slaves and naked women that actually don't appeal to women in general and I would say than a great number of males don't always like them either and might be tired of them. It happened in season 1 and it happens now.

what females and males like about GOT is about the story, (when they like it....like me when I used to like it because it was properly adapted) but not the depiction you are speaking about. Sincerely, without the story and only these scenes I would have never watched the show.

And what they are doing with the "female empowerment" is just too much that I actually find it misogynistic. Ellaria saying that weak men won't rule Dorne it's misogynistic and antifeminist and treats him as a stupid when the stupid one is her. It was Oberun who accepted the trial by combat if she is hurt it's another matter.

about the leaks....Arya killing all the male Freys and all the other females staying alive is stupid and misogynistic and antifeminist. It's "female empowerment" for them but it's the contrary. Why does she know for sure that all the men are guilty and all the women are innocent? She can't know.

 

PS: I was re-reading your post and I think you might be being sarcastic with your use of words ('cause they are huge ones to be believed), if that is the case, I apologise. There is many people who actually believe this.

[Meera of Tarth]

more.....Dany smirking when Yara is flirting with her might be part of an strategy to make her accept the negotiations bit we know that Dany is straight so I think that it wasn't needed.

not a major rant since it falls into the category of Tormund and Brienne bit they like focusing on not canon romances.

[Meera of Tarth]

21 hours ago, Newstar said:

Yeah, Vanessa Taylor was pretty terrible. I think the issue is good writers, not female or male writers. Bad writing knows no gender, LOL.

 

That might be your personal preference, but I completely disagree with that statement.

I have just checked her epsiodes and they are:

Dark Wings, Dark Words

The Old Gods and the New

Garden of Bones

I think all three are pretty good episodes (seasons 2 and 3 were really good IMO, the downfall began in season 5).

There are amazing moments there, pretty well-written like the riot and Sandor saving Sansa, The Tyrrells and Sansa talking about the real nature of Joffrey, Gendry telling Arya that she could have used the help of Jacquen to end the war, Osha saving Bran, Bran dreaming, the sword fight between Jaime and Brienne,.....etc

and many iconic good quotes like:

"We don't get to choose whom we love" from Jaime to Brienne (It's used later and I think it will be used in a future as well)

"Some people will always need help. That doesn't mean they are not worth helping" by Meera referring to Bran.

Of course not everything was fine in those 3 episodes (or even in those seasons) but now compare that to the bad quality in general of season 5 (almost evertone on this board agrees that it's the worst season, regardless if they like it or not) or quotes like "I drink and I know things" and "Bad pussy". The difference is SO HUGE.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

@sweetsunray created an amazing poll on them. (The reason of why this thread was created, btw).

And the poll's going great. Over 100 voters now

For those who missed it: https://nl.surveymonkey.com/r/HWKXFJ6

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

33 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

"Some people will always need help. That doesn't mean they are not worth helping" by Meera referring to Bran.

Minor, irrelevant correction - Meera said that line to Osha about Jojen.

[Meera of Tarth]

18 minutes ago, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

Minor, irrelevant correction - Meera said that line to Osha about Jojen.

Referring to Bran, as I said. There are multiple interpretations. The camera focused on Bran. I got it as a hint to their future (and I was right, at least until now).

PS: I was trying to find the clip, and I as I remembered, Bran is shown at the centre (meaning he is important in that quote), of course Jojen also appears.

PS: ANd also the other line by Jaime has many interpretations, but they use it to hint at J/B. That's the power of good writing.

[Meera of Tarth]

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And the poll's going great. Over 100 voters now

For those who missed it: https://nl.surveymonkey.com/r/HWKXFJ6

[Le Cygne]

15 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

While having a female director/writer/ANYONE contributing to a series doesn't automatically make something feminist (or good), it certainly can't hurt. Then there's just the crazy notion that women are actually GOOD at directing and writing and should be better represented in every medium. 

Remember when GOT debuted and there was all that hubbub about how it was misogynistic and didn't accurately represent medieval history and how it wouldn't appeal to female fans? I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but we've sure come a long way! Right? 

Right? 

True. Everyone brings something to the party, but they have to be invited. And they went backwards, with the smirking women who kill the weak men nonsense. It's making a joke of humanity.

[Newstar]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

That might be your personal preference, but I completely disagree with that statement.

And that might be your personal preference, but I completely disagree with that statement. Not only am I not the only one who believes that Taylor was a terrible writer on GOT--I agreed with @Rhodan, who said it first--but I've watched other episodes of other shows written by Taylor, and she's never impressed or improved.

Furthermore, I recall 3x02 (Dark Wings, Dark Words) was pilloried by fans when it aired as the worst episode of the show to date. I even remember fans calling for Taylor to be kicked off the show. If indeed Taylor was not asked back after Season 3--I think she left on her own to pursue feature screenwriting--then I guarantee 3x02 was to blame. Cogman's Season 3 episode, on the other hand, was much more warmly received, which is probably why in Season 4 he had two episodes and has had two episodes for Seasons 5 and 6.

Quote

Of course not everything was fine in those 3 episodes (or even in those seasons) but now compare that to the bad quality in general of season 5 (almost evertone on this board agrees that it's the worst season, regardless if they like it or not) or quotes like "I drink and I know things" and "Bad pussy". The difference is SO HUGE.

Those are lines written by D&D. D&D have always written the bulk of the show. Keeping Vanessa Taylor around wouldn't have changed any of that. 

Nor did the presence of women on the show save the show from shitty, sexist writing in Seasons 1 and 2, so that argument is dead in the water as well. There are terrible, sexist shows written by women, and there are well-written, progressive shows written by men. Shitty and/or sexist writing does not discriminate. 

[Meera of Tarth]

Dark wings Dark Words the worst episode to that date? It's an amazing episode and also many people believe this like me. So we will have to disagree on that I am afraid.

interesting what you say about Kissed by Fire. A really good episode as well, like s3 in general. Too bad he really missed the opportunity and created the now "worst episode to date" and we all know the title of that one in season 5, a bad episode in a bad season. Worst from the worst. That one really had lots of rants!!!LOL

The fact that the showrunners had women or more women could also change their views on how the audience can react on sexual things (it has happened in the past, they added some scenes with naked men, for instance after many many critics talking about that topic, so with female writers I am sure they could at least, think of it more than they are doing now) and as aconsequence of that, have a better show.

Female presence? this show never had more than one female writer iirc (for three epis out of 74), and now has zero, so you can't argue about that because GOT it's far from having had remarkable female presence in the past. Of course nothing changed because of that "presence of women in the show" and the only one ther left. But if critics changed things a little, I am sure more female writers (and OTHER MALE writers) would. But they just domn't want more perspectives.

[Queen of Procrastination]

@Meera of Tarth I wholeheartly agree with what you wrote, but I'm pretty certain Livers and Onions was being sarcastic. I don't speak for her, but she has in the past shown a feminist stance and critcised sexism. 

To add something. On average a woman is more likely to spot sexism than a man. Sure there are also women who behave pretty mysoginistic and men who  feminist, but on average a woman is more likely to recognise sexist behaviour for what it is. Same goes for racism a PoC is more likely to spot it than a white person, or all the other -isms. 

And I agree with everyone who says that men can write female characters well there are enogh examples of that. There are also some examples of women who write female characters badly, but one average a woman is probably gonna write female characters better than a man. 

 D&D were getting criticised for their sexist writing from day one and rightly so. If they really wanted to change something they could have hired another female writer after Vanessa Taylor left and asked her to call them out for sexism she spots in their writing.. Or if they didn't want to hire a female writer they could have hired at least a sensivity reader to tell them when she spots sexism. IMO the most sexist Season was Season 5. As it happens this was also the first season without a female writer or director...

Neither Dark Wings Dark Words nor Kissed by Fire is on my favourite epiosde list, but they weren't the worst episodes for me, fare from it. 

[Newstar]

9 minutes ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

 D&D were getting criticised for their sexist writing from day one and rightly so. If they really wanted to change something they could have hired another female writer after Vanessa Taylor left and asked her to call them out for sexism she spots in their writing.. Or if they didn't want to hire a female writer they could have hired at least a sensivity reader to tell them when she spots sexism. IMO the most sexist Season was Season 5. As it happens this was also the first season without a female writer or director...

It wouldn't have changed anything. Entourage, the show that's most synonymous with sexism, had a female writer on staff who wrote multiple episodes for the last several seasons, but no one would ever guess from watching it.

The idea that having female writers on staff somehow inoculates a show from sexism is a silly fiction.

[Le Cygne]

14 minutes ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

And I agree with everyone who says that men can write female characters well there are enogh examples of that. There are also some examples of women who write female characters badly, but one average a woman is probably gonna write female characters better than a man.

To the argument that men can write well for women, I would respond that women can write well for men.

We all notice unique things in our life experience, that often never come up if we aren't there to bring them up.

So give more women a chance to be there. And it helps if the showrunner encourages their voices.

I also find for things like romance, women writers add a dimension of understanding there that is important.

Having that mix of men and women in the writer's room, where they break the stories, is a great chance to hear all of those voices.

[Meera of Tarth]

yes, I agree with you @Queen of Procrastination. Sometimes one reads such a lot of things that is difficult to see the sarcasm out there. So again, @Liver and Onions my apologize, as I didn't read it properly.

imo I loved s3 (I was an Unsullied at that time) but there are things from that season (especially about the sex issues) that I disliked a lot. And the worst episodes are imho from Season 5. There is one in particular that shouts I am the worst of the season, possibly the worst of the show, and the press talked about this.....A LOT. They laughed at the snakes Material and other issues that are also discussed today.

so Cogman might have done a good job in season 3 (when Vanessa also did a good one) but he did the worst episode of the entire show. (critics said that, fans said that......etc).

[Meera of Tarth]

 

29 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

To the argument that men can write well for women, I would respond that women can write well for men.

We all notice unique things in our life experience, that often never come up if we aren't there to bring them up.

So give more women a chance to be there. And it helps if the showrunner encourages their voices.

I also find for things like romance, women writers add a dimension of understanding there that is important.

yes, there are male writers who are really good in terms of romance but what you say about the other dimension is true. Taylor did an amazing job with Jaime and Brienne!!!!!! I fell in love with their story.

I wish there were more writers in Game of Thrones like in the past, and also female writers amongst them, like it used to be.... but the showrunners are writing almost eveything by themselves today. That's not good, even for good writers! Different perspectives are needed. because it adds mor elayers on the show, and you are able to identify plot holes, you have more suggestions, etc. 

You can't find these perspectives if you don't have more than 2 writers +2 very occasional ones, like what happens with GOT today. More people, of any gender, more perspectives and real life experiences to add! ANd also, the fact there are more women (and not only men, but it would happen the same in a show written only by women) makes it more possible to find different approaches to the writing (different life experiences as you pointed out). Not because men can't write a romance, as I said (there are really good romance writers who are men), but because women sometimes bring a different insght on it. Then, you also hire another writer, maybe a man this time, and you'll discover he might be as good as that woman writing that romance and it's also possible he'll might have had that same idea as the woman, but slightly different, but regardless of that (if it's different otr not), you combine BOTH POINTS OF VIEW  from BOTH WRITERS and it's magical: good writing happens. You notice what was bad, etc. Same applies with other genres. that's how it's done in a proper way.

[Le Cygne]

I am loving the writing on Better Call Saul, there's a good mix of male and female writers, and they talk it out in the writer's room when they break the stories. I think the showrunners are very sensitive to including both male and female voices, and it's an enlightening experience for everyone, to share and understand various perspectives. Makes for a better story.

Anyway, here are the insider podcasts, always a good listen...

[Newstar]

19 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

To the argument that men can write well for women, I would respond that women can write well for men.

We all notice unique things in our life experience, that often never come up if we aren't there to bring them up.

So give more women a chance to be there. And it helps if the showrunner encourages their voices.

I also find for things like romance, women writers add a dimension of understanding there that is important.

Having women writers on staff is desirable in of itself for representation purposes, just like having LGBTQ writers and writers from diverse backgrounds is desirable for representation purposes, but it shouldn't be because fans think it will somehow save the show from sexist writing, because that is just not true. 

I also think suggesting that women write romance better than men is getting into very dangerous territory, because if there are some things women "naturally" write better than men, then the converse must be true, and there are some things men "naturally" write better than women. Better stop with the gender essentialist stuff. That way lies nothing good.

Bringing it back to GOT, ultimately this is D&D's show, and any female writers would have to fit the tone that they set, since D&D control every aspect of the production. If D&D had Brianna Cogman and Davina Hill as their staff writers, I doubt the writing would be any less sexist for the reasons I said. The only way to save GOT from sexist writing would be to have a different set of showrunners from the get go who are alive to these issues, and that never happened.

[Le Cygne]

7 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

yes, there are male writers who are really good in terms of romance but what you say about the other dimension is true. Taylor did an amazing job with Jaime and Brienne!!!!!! I fell in love with their story.

Yeah, I love what she did with Sansa and the Hound, too. The rescue scene. One of my favorite scenes in the whole show. It's just like the rescue in Beauty and the Beast, and the followup thank you scene is good, too.

One of our favorite romance writers is a man, George RR Martin. He wrote Sansa and the Hound, and he wrote Jaime and Brienne. Based on the classics, but very original and compelling stories (better in the books, of course).

LOL misquoting and taking what people say out of context AGAIN. When what we are saying is actually very beautiful, we are saying both men and women have so many wonderful stories to tell, let them tell them together.