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Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]


Little Scribe of Naath

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Tbh I gave Littlefinger the benefit of the doubt and interpreted the opening line as being about focusing on the bigger picture and trying to take advantage of every battle and war rather than just one or two short or medium term military goals. I thought it was an explanation of sorts of how Littlefinger is so successful, he fights every battle everywhere always in his mind. Any takers? ;) 

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It's not LF's way... If you interprete "Fighting every battle everywhere always in your mind" as a fluffy way to portay a strategist who has an overview of every possible moves ahead like a chess player, then LF is not a chess player, but an opportunist. He can make plans, but it's more akin to "I make a move and see where the pieces fall, and then I'll see what I'll do. He's not trying to control events or people, just use them. So,no, LF himself does not fight every battle everywhere always in his mind. 

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Maybe it's a puzzle to resolve?

In your battle, always fight every mind, everywhere

Your mind, in every fight, everywhere, always

Everywhere, in every mind, always fight your battle

Mind your fight, always, in, everywhere, ,every

Fight your mind, everywhere, always, every battle --> Could this be the one he is referring to?

His mind is.....chaos.

Coloours!!!!!!!!!!

Ha ha ha!

Trying to find meaning in one of the most poorly worded meaningless sentences ever... might as well have fun with it!

Reminds me of that song about a stalker (In a 1983 interview with the New Musical Express, Sting explained: "I think it's a nasty little song, really rather evil. It's about jealousy and surveillance and ownership.")

Every breath you take, every move you make, every bond you break, every single day, every word you say, every game you play, every night you stay, I'll be watching you.

Which is like, Littlefinger all over. He's trying to drive Sansa insane. Best thing she could do is put a stop to him.

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2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Ha ha ha!

Trying to find meaning in one of the most poorly worded meaningless sentences ever... might as well have fun with it!

Reminds me of that song about a stalker (In a 1983 interview with the New Musical Express, Sting explained: "I think it's a nasty little song, really rather evil. It's about jealousy and surveillance and ownership.")

Every breath you take, every move you make, every bond you break, every single day, every word you say, every game you play, every night you stay, I'll be watching you.

Which is like, Littlefinger all over. He's trying to drive Sansa insane. Best thing she could do is put a stop to him.

well if he is trying to make her go crazy......these words are!!!!!

maybe he wants her to think about them....and finding a meaning is impossible....LOL

I would like Bran to discover the truth and firmly make himself Lord and do what he decides it's fair to do with LF. No need to waste a whole season for that. Too bad he is busy with his powers but I don't blame him. Wf is more chaotic than anywhere he has been before.

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10 hours ago, StepStark said:

Well she's certain enough that she goes to Littlefinger to save the day, so it's not me saying that, it's D&D who portrayed things that way. But honestly, I'm not missing your point, but you are missing that your point doesn't hold water in perspective. Look at it like this: there are two Sansas in season 6: Sansa 1 desperately wants Jon to lead the fight against Boltons and win back Winterfell from them, but Sansa 2 knows that Jon is going to fail and does everything in her power to not go down with him. Sansa 1 appears in the first half of the season, and Sansa 2 appears in the second half, and in the last episode two Sansas alternate between scenes. Now that is terrible writing and it is so terrible that I have to correct myself: it's not based on bad idea because there was no general idea behind that stupidity. They just write without thinking things through and without the slightest regard for the overall logic. Just please rewatch these two scenes back to back: 1. Sansa begging Jon to stay and fight for Winterfell, 2. Sansa trying to warn Jon that he's going to get outsmarted by Ramsay. Unless there's a load of things that happened between them, those two scenes should never belong to a single storyline. But sadly they do because that's how bad D&D's writing truly is. How did Sansa suddenly come to the conclusion that Jon is going to get outsmarted by Ramsay? No idea. Just like with Marg in the last episode when she suddenly realizes that Cersei is going to kill everybody - there is simply no realistic explanation for her realization. Not to mention that Sansa can easily fix everything about the supposed advantage Ramsay has over Jon: just tell Jon EVERYTHING she knows about and went through with Ramsay.

And not to mention that Ramsay "outsmarted" Jon only because Jon and Rickon acted like complete morons just when Ramsay needed them to, which is one more example of terrible writing.

As i said, bad writing made it come out messily but (if) the general plot is supposed to be "Sansa, with Jon help, wants to reclaim Winterfell. However after Littlefinger seeds doubts about Jon's intentions and her realization that they won't rally sufficient forces for the battle (among other things such as getting excluded from the war council) Sansa starts distrusting Jon. Looking at their predicament, the night before the battle she gives him the only advice she can (as she isnt an strategist or a warrior): Ramsey is a smart sadist who is good at hitting people where it hurts the most so they weaken themselves, so he probably has something prepared, do not fall for it"

As i said before if that's what it was supposed to be then i don't think what it was supposed to be was illogical, but it was written it in a bad way.

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On second thoughts, I think the showrunners ran with the LF voice-over because they are concerned that there is not enough "suspense" as to whether Sansa will betray Jon in favour of LF (.... perhaps due to leaks?)

Paradoxically, this confirms that Sansa will kill LF - they are just desperate to raise the stakes so as to make the whole LF/Sansa thing make dramatic sense (despite them changing the storylines so much from the books).

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8 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

As i said, bad writing made it come out messily but (if) the general plot is supposed to be "Sansa, with Jon help, wants to reclaim Winterfell. However after Littlefinger seeds doubts about Jon's intentions and her realization that they won't rally sufficient forces for the battle (among other things such as getting excluded from the war council) Sansa starts distrusting Jon. Looking at their predicament, the night before the battle she gives him the only advice she can (as she isnt an strategist or a warrior): Ramsey is a smart sadist who is good at hitting people where it hurts the most so they weaken themselves, so he probably has something prepared, do not fall for it"

As i said before if that's what it was supposed to be then i don't think what it was supposed to be was illogical, but it was written it in a bad way.

The problem is, I just don't know why she didn't tell Jon in that moment. If she thinks that LF won't arrive in time, Jon running to his death accomplishes nothing. If she thinks LF will arrive in the nick of time, then she needs to delay Jon as long as possible before he commits to a doomed battle plan. Telling him about incoming reinforcements solves both of these problems. 

Since even the night before the battle she didn't even know if LF had responded to her letter, there's really no excuse for her to not tell Jon other than to "surprise" the especially inattentive members of the audience. 

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8 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

As i said, bad writing made it come out messily but (if) the general plot is supposed to be "Sansa, with Jon help, wants to reclaim Winterfell. However after Littlefinger seeds doubts about Jon's intentions and her realization that they won't rally sufficient forces for the battle (among other things such as getting excluded from the war council) Sansa starts distrusting Jon. Looking at their predicament, the night before the battle she gives him the only advice she can (as she isnt an strategist or a warrior): Ramsey is a smart sadist who is good at hitting people where it hurts the most so they weaken themselves, so he probably has something prepared, do not fall for it"

As i said before if that's what it was supposed to be then i don't think what it was supposed to be was illogical, but it was written it in a bad way.

I agree. Problem started back in season 6, with the show refusing to make Sansa's motivation clear. That means we're entering season 7, with Sansa behaving in ways that are unresolved, mysterious. If the show remembers what Sansa did, and if the show explains why she did it, great. However, I'm not sure if the show has the time to manage that.

 

11 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

The problem is, I just don't know why she didn't tell Jon in that moment. If she thinks that LF won't arrive in time, Jon running to his death accomplishes nothing. If she thinks LF will arrive in the nick of time, then she needs to delay Jon as long as possible before he commits to a doomed battle plan. Telling him about incoming reinforcements solves both of these problems. 

It only works (imo!) if Sansa knows LF is waiting and will arrive in time, and if she is deliberately working against Jon. If Sansa were anyone but Sansa, there wouldn't be a hell of a lot of mystery: she hides the Vale because she wants Ramsay to take out Jon, after which she can enter and take out Ramsay. She gets rid of the bastard, becomes the great power of the North, lady of WF. She's LF's pupil as much as Bran is Bloodraven's, and Arya is the FM's. It's as fitting that she would behave this way as it's fitting that Arya would kill.

But she's Sansa, hence she's good, and innocent, and long-suffering. It's inconceivable that she'd go this dark (for no reason other than that she's Sansa) despite the fact that, honestly, I can think of no other reason for her series of decisions in season 6.

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3 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

The problem is, I just don't know why she didn't tell Jon in that moment. If she thinks that LF won't arrive in time, Jon running to his death accomplishes nothing. If she thinks LF will arrive in the nick of time, then she needs to delay Jon as long as possible before he commits to a doomed battle plan. Telling him about incoming reinforcements solves both of these problems. 

Since even the night before the battle she didn't even know if LF had responded to her letter, there's really no excuse for her to not tell Jon other than to "surprise" the especially inattentive members of the audience. 

 

3 hours ago, kimim said:

It only works (imo!) if Sansa knows LF is waiting and will arrive in time, and if she is deliberately working against Jon. If Sansa were anyone but Sansa, there wouldn't be a hell of a lot of mystery: she hides the Vale because she wants Ramsay to take out Jon, after which she can enter and take out Ramsay. She gets rid of the bastard, becomes the great power of the North, lady of WF. She's LF's pupil as much as Bran is Bloodraven's, and Arya is the FM's. It's as fitting that she would behave this way as it's fitting that Arya would kill.

But she's Sansa, hence she's good, and innocent, and long-suffering. It's inconceivable that she'd go this dark (for no reason other than that she's Sansa) despite the fact that, honestly, I can think of no other reason for her series of decisions in season 6.

My interpretation is that either she didnt fully trust LF anyway or he instructed her to keep it shut and just wait for him to arrive. She might have expected him to come sooner but once the battle is on, she literally can't do anything except wait, since Jon was literally in the front lines.  

Problem was it was never explained and it probably wont be. I don't think the "I wanna be LoW lets take out Jon" theory holds water at least until after they retake Winterfell and Jon gets crowned/all the glory.

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13 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

As i said, bad writing made it come out messily but (if) the general plot is supposed to be "Sansa, with Jon help, wants to reclaim Winterfell. However after Littlefinger seeds doubts about Jon's intentions and her realization that they won't rally sufficient forces for the battle (among other things such as getting excluded from the war council) Sansa starts distrusting Jon. Looking at their predicament, the night before the battle she gives him the only advice she can (as she isnt an strategist or a warrior): Ramsey is a smart sadist who is good at hitting people where it hurts the most so they weaken themselves, so he probably has something prepared, do not fall for it"

As i said before if that's what it was supposed to be then i don't think what it was supposed to be was illogical, but it was written it in a bad way.

But we're not talking about her concerns about the strength of their army here. That would be a legitimate concern, but not something Jon can remedy in any way, while she can, which creates another type of problem. But no, Sansa isn't concerned about that, her worry is personally about Jon, that he is going to fall into one of Ramsay's traps. I don't even know what makes her such an expert on Ramsay's traps, since she didn't witness them personally, as far as I remember. Theon did, but she's not Theon. Even if Theon told her in details about Ramsay's mindgames, that doesn't make her an expert, or if it does then she can easily make Jon an expert the same way - by telling him everything she knows about Ramsay. That's what a normal person would do in that situation, but she doesn't, but she's somehow convinced that Jon is inevitably going to fall into Ramsay's trap. And of course Sansa was eventually wrong, because there was no any super-trap by Ramsay. Only if Jon and Rickon didn't act like total morons, Rickon would evade the fatal arrow just fine and Ramsay would look like a complete moron for setting free his most valuable hostage (Rickon).

But alright then, you're probably going to say that I'm again talking about execution, even though it's not the case exactly, because all those problems are inherently connected with the very idea of Jon being unable to avoid Ramsay's traps and Sansa realizing Jon's fatal fault though not before she persuades him to lead the fight against Ramsay. What I'm certain is that there is no scenario in which that idea can work, and if you can prove me wrong, please do, please create any scenario in which that idea would work. I'm positive that it's impossible to do that, because the very idea is against logic. The only possible reasons for Sansa to loose her confidence in Jon, after previously pressuring him into leading the war, are: 1) she realizes that Jon is a complete moron, 2) saving Rickon and retaking Winterfell aren't her priorities any more. So either Jon is a basket case, or Sansa is corrupt to the bone.

And I'm insisting on this matter because it's often overlooked how bad D&D's storytelling truly is. It's not only about execution, because their ideas are also beyond salvation for the most part. Their incompetence is monumental and it corrupts everything in every stage, even in the very inception of their ideas.

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11 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

PJ's newest

 

Ha ha ha!

"In one's mind... because dude, he's deep. And this battle in his mind is probably in reference to his complete and utter breakdown in season when he handed Sandra over to Ramsay in season 5 for no reason. Or is it could be in reference to her complete and utter breakdown when she hid the Vale army from Jon in season 6 for no reason."

"King's Landing is undergoing a Protestant Reformation because they all seem pretty happy that Cersei blew up the Vatican."

Another shot of dragons: "And here we have some not CGI direwolves." (That's for you @Tijgy)

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20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's not LF's way... If you interprete "Fighting every battle everywhere always in your mind" as a fluffy way to portay a strategist who has an overview of every possible moves ahead like a chess player, then LF is not a chess player, but an opportunist. He can make plans, but it's more akin to "I make a move and see where the pieces fall, and then I'll see what I'll do. He's not trying to control events or people, just use them. So,no, LF himself does not fight every battle everywhere always in his mind. 

Maybe he used to (or in the books) but now he knows he has become a dumb character in the hands of the showrunnera that hr obligues himself to repeat this words.

It's like when Tyrion says he drinks andkniws things. Hr knows deep inside that he has become a dumb character as well abd forces himself to repeat he is the  eat of the best, basically what he "uaed to be" a sarcastic character. But Tyrion and LF are just charicatures of what their book or even show chatacers were.

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He might be telling her that she should stay away from real battles.....better just imagine them. A good advice simce she can't win the Prom queen seat fighting cause Northeners prefrer jonny's style. Although the perdon who would be ablr to fight battles in his mind better than othera is Bran; rightful heir

..... 

But who happens to not be playing the Prom King game brcause the Northeners and everyone just ignore him.

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41 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He might be telling her that she should stay away from real battles.....better just imagine them. A good advice simce she can't win the Prom queen seat fighting cause Northeners prefrer jonny's style. Although the perdon who would be ablr to fight battles in his mind better than othera is Bran; rightful heir

..... 

But who happens to not be playing the Prom King game brcause the Northeners and everyone just ignore him.

Honestly, the fact that Littlefinger is given freedom to roam around Winterfell is baffling to me. The Knights of the Vale are Robins, not LF's, so the fact that there isn't someone keeping tabs on him strikes me as really foolish, especially since Jon knows that he's responsible for Sansa's marriage to Ramsay.

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6 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

 

My interpretation is that either she didnt fully trust LF anyway or he instructed her to keep it shut and just wait for him to arrive. She might have expected him to come sooner but once the battle is on, she literally can't do anything except wait, since Jon was literally in the front lines.  

Problem was it was never explained and it probably wont be. I don't think the "I wanna be LoW lets take out Jon" theory holds water at least until after they retake Winterfell and Jon gets crowned/all the glory.

ita the problem is that her motivation was never explained, and that's a mistake. Sansa's decisions have consequences but are incomprehensible, as the show both touts the "new Sansa," without explaining what that is, and resists adding dark elements to her character.

Without some type of explanation, without some darkness to Sansa, the only conclusion is that Sansa's hiding an entire army and sending her allies to near-certain massacre because she's been traumatized and finds it difficult to trust. These are all emotional reasons, with no strategy attached. If she's doing all this without knowing where that army is, without knowing that LF can arrive in time, then she's stupid (sorry, no other word applies) beyond belief, and everyone is damned lucky.

And none of this works. She's LF's pupil, and LF does nothing without a strategic purpose. A dark Sansa who knows where that army is, who decides to hide it to allow Ramsay to take Jon out, then use it to take out Ramsay...that's how LF's pupil would act.

3 hours ago, StepStark said:

But no, Sansa isn't concerned about that, her worry is personally about Jon, that he is going to fall into one of Ramsay's traps. I don't even know what makes her such an expert on Ramsay's traps, since she didn't witness them personally, as far as I remember. Theon did, but she's not Theon. Even if Theon told her in details about Ramsay's mindgames, that doesn't make her an expert, or if it does then she can easily make Jon an expert the same way - by telling him everything she knows about Ramsay.

Actually this bit worked for me. First, Ramsay's superiority to Jon in the cruelty and manipulation department are so obvious that no deep knowledge of either Ramsay or Jon is needed for Sansa's advice to ring true. Then, of course Sansa knows what Ramsay is capable of; she spent time with him, saw him in action. She tries to warn Jon in that conversation but it all falls apart when he refuses to believe that Ramsay is better than he is at manipulating people.

The way I read this conversation was as a test. Sansa was giving Jon an opportunity to show that he would respect her advice. He fails the test when he refuses to realize an obvious truth about himself and his enemy. He thinks only in terms of protecting her; she's his little sister, no more than that.

I think she understands that with him in control, she'll be relegated to being the sad, traumatized lady of WF, while he is the decider. So when he mocks her with "what should we do, then," she's silent about the Vale She says she'll save herself--ie., she's got the biggest army in the North working for her, not him, and she'll keep it that way.

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