Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[Prince of the North]

On 6/26/2017 at 10:22 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, I have purposely been avoiding any show info for several months because the show just doesn't make any sense within it's own world.

However, I just caught a longer HBO commercial by mistake that showed more scenes than the other clip that was forced upon me about two weeks ago. 

Um, the Mountain's armor???? 

https://goo.gl/images/G1iFGP

That armor makes him look like an "evil" Orko from the cartoon He-Man 

https://goo.gl/images/ZxXkkF

 

19 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

OMG!

Yeah, that armor is not only hideous looking but it's hideously impractical as well.  It would not actually protect the face/eyes or the neck, like, at.all.

[The Dragon Demands]

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 1:51 PM, sweetsunray said:

It's valid criticism to criticise a show in how far their staff reflects the audience: deliberately favoring male staff for writing and directing or unable to hire female staff for their product shows they have a gender issue. Writing and directing 4-5 seasons of an 8 season show as big and as complex with such a big general viewing populace with only male staff is by itself a total social disgrace. The executive producers clearly have a problem with 50 % of the population.

The show was mysoginistic and catering to one gender of the audience from the get go, and was critcised and called on it. We know the two writers and executive producers who wrote like that from the start. Instead of getting better, it only got worse. When the sole female writer they have as staff leaves, the raping gets ramped up, including a scene that was directed and acted as not being a rape scene, but somehow got edited and cut to look like a rape scene. Then their female director is gone too. And we've got the producers and writers saying on DVD commentary how strong the actress plays her rape scene while the camera focuses on Theon's face, and shit like that. And then for S6 we get a deleted scene that the director cut, because he comments how he basically couldn't even believe that the producers and writers were that insipid that you can't put in the following scene: two Braavosi women comment on Tyrion raping Sansa in the Braavosi play and Arya quipping "If you don't like it, watch something else". The male director cut that scene, and instead somehow inserted a non-scripted scene about an actress criticising the author of the play. It's gotten so mysoginistic that male directors have to cut out scripted scenes and ad-lib their own to make sure that they don't provoke the female audience in the season that was called "women on top".

Meanwhile you've got a male director teasing an actress who's a minor about "getting a romance next season" and then the actress learns her character is getting raped by reading the script. They didn't even warn her, called her, had a conversation with her. That's how the all male writers and a male director dealt with a 17 year old who was set up to act a rape scene: like it's a joke. And then the scene when it was shot was called "Romance dies". WTF?!!!! That's how these men look at rape: something to joke about. It's utterly disgusting.

That these two producers and writers continue on without female writing staff and directors is a total sign on the wall they have issues with women, and it shows in their product and their production.

Female writers and directors aren't necessarily better writers, and the majority of men are empathic and sensitive about issues such as rape. But with the amount of good female writers and directors available in Hollywood it's a damning sign if those female writers or directors are either not interested in working with D& D or if the producers do not work with them anymore.

You understand everything I tried to convey.

In the event that I suddenly die, or get banned, I need you to keep these criticisms alive.

All of you.  All the ranters.  This needs to spread.

[The Dragon Demands]

Why TV-Cersei differs from Book-Cersei,

and why she has a black-haired son with Robert (also, is it Gendry?)
 

 

[The Dragon Demands]

Why the Stannis storyline failed in Game of Thrones - Emoting & Acting

Interested in everyone's thoughts on this video, also on the Cersei video.

[SecretWeapon]

I cba watching that. But i'm starting to think the Robert son thing was a lie

[The Bear Who Knocks]

6 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Why the Stannis storyline failed in Game of Thrones - Emoting & Acting

Interested in everyone's thoughts on this video, also on the Cersei video.

i think i'll give this a listen first

[Le Cygne]

22 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Yeah, that armor is not only hideous looking but it's hideously impractical as well.  It would not actually protect the face/eyes or the neck, like, at.all.

Indeed, and it's low and broad, any movement and he can't see. Some people are saying it looks like Darth Vader, too.

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 6/21/2017 at 1:51 PM, sweetsunray said:

It's valid criticism to criticise a show in how far their staff reflects the audience: deliberately favoring male staff for writing and directing or unable to hire female staff for their product shows they have a gender issue. Writing and directing 4-5 seasons of an 8 season show as big and as complex with such a big general viewing populace with only male staff is by itself a total social disgrace. The executive producers clearly have a problem with 50 % of the population.

The show was mysoginistic and catering to one gender of the audience from the get go, and was critcised and called on it. We know the two writers and executive producers who wrote like that from the start. Instead of getting better, it only got worse. When the sole female writer they have as staff leaves, the raping gets ramped up, including a scene that was directed and acted as not being a rape scene, but somehow got edited and cut to look like a rape scene. Then their female director is gone too. And we've got the producers and writers saying on DVD commentary how strong the actress plays her rape scene while the camera focuses on Theon's face, and shit like that. And then for S6 we get a deleted scene that the director cut, because he comments how he basically couldn't even believe that the producers and writers were that insipid that you can't put in the following scene: two Braavosi women comment on Tyrion raping Sansa in the Braavosi play and Arya quipping "If you don't like it, watch something else". The male director cut that scene, and instead somehow inserted a non-scripted scene about an actress criticising the author of the play. It's gotten so mysoginistic that male directors have to cut out scripted scenes and ad-lib their own to make sure that they don't provoke the female audience in the season that was called "women on top".

Meanwhile you've got a male director teasing an actress who's a minor about "getting a romance next season" and then the actress learns her character is getting raped by reading the script. They didn't even warn her, called her, had a conversation with her. That's how the all male writers and a male director dealt with a 17 year old who was set up to act a rape scene: like it's a joke. And then the scene when it was shot was called "Romance dies". WTF?!!!! That's how these men look at rape: something to joke about. It's utterly disgusting.

That these two producers and writers continue on without female writing staff and directors is a total sign on the wall they have issues with women, and it shows in their product and their production.

Female writers and directors aren't necessarily better writers, and the majority of men are empathic and sensitive about issues such as rape. But with the amount of good female writers and directors available in Hollywood it's a damning sign if those female writers or directors are either not interested in working with D& D or if the producers do not work with them anymore.

This post is so on-point. One thing about GOT that's really curious is how so many people who work on the show appear to leave with a bad taste in their mouth. Using the characters names for simplicity's sake, Barristan, Stannis, and Doran have all reflected negatively on their time on the show (particularly concerning D&D), and Margaery was clearly uncomfortable with having to defend the show, and ended up asking them to kill her off halfway through season five. (Seeing as Natalie Dormer has admitted in the past that she lied about not being bothered by the sexism on the Tudors while promoting the show, it wouldn't surprise me if we get a similar revelation concerning GOT in a few years). The directors and crew all seem to have wildly different takes on the show's material, as well. The man who directed the episode where Dany gives that silly speech on dragonback stressed how this scene is supposed to disturb us, making the audience wonder if she really is capable of wielding this much power without becoming a tyrant. But as we all know, according to the D's, smugly burning people alive and destroying their holy temples is how you get people to worship you. I hadn't realized that one of the directors had cut that ridiculous Braavosi scene, but it definitely respect him a lot for that. 

It's not even something that's omnipresent on HBO, either. Westworld is produced and scripted by a married couple, and you see just how much having both a man and woman working together has allowed it to avoid the problems that GOT has. As you mentioned, a lot of it comes down to violence being treated seriously as opposed to as a joke. To make matters worse, D&D don't even seem to really understand why they were being criticized (Cogman, at the very least, has seemed a bit abashed following the backlash). They were used to being criticized by critics of the show, and just brushing them off a "prudes," but I don't think they ever expected fans of the show to join in in that criticism, or for the ratings to take a hit because of it.

In the end, a lot of it also comes down to fact that D&D simply aren't very good screenwriters (which is ironic, since that's apparently how they started their careers). The biggest problem with Sansa's season five arc for me was that it was poor storytelling. We had already spent four seasons watching Sansa be the victim. For the full year leading up to season five, "Darth Sansa" was promoted heavily, and viewers were excited to see her finally stop being abused and victimized. Instead, she got repeatedly raped and locked in her bedroom for the rest of the season. It's hard to think of a worse way they could have handled an "empowerment" arc or have let the audience down even more than they did. 

[Einheri]

1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

 

Yeah, that armor is not only hideous looking but it's hideously impractical as well.  It would not actually protect the face/eyes or the neck, like, at.all.

That helmet looks like a derpy version of a 15th century kettle helm with brim visor.

[Prince of the North]

5 minutes ago, Einheri said:

That helmet looks like a derpy version of a 15th century kettle helm with brim visor.

Derpy is right.  The helmet you linked actually does protect the eyes, face and neck much better.  You know...like armor that was designed with actual medieval combat in mind...would.

[Einheri]

22 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Derpy is right.  The helmet you linked actually does protect the eyes, face and neck much better.  You know...like armor that was designed with actual medieval combat in mind...would.

Very true, but shitty helmet designs has been a thing with the Lannisters since season 1: http://i.imgur.com/I1fJ4Ia.jpg

Edit: It would have been nice if the show had been more true to the books when it comes to armor and equipment . While GRRM does include some fantastical elements from time time (as one would expect from a series such as this one), the gear described in the books generally comes across as pretty realistic IMO. In contrast I have to really scour my memory to think of something on the show that wasn't flawed in one way or the other (i.e. gaps in protection or just plain ridiculous designs)... 

[The Dragon Demands]

@The Bard of Banefort

You have to understand....Benioff and Weiss honestly believed that Sansa was "a powerful player in Season 5", so that's why they hyped Dark Sansa.

Problem is, their definition of "powerful player" - verbatim - is if *Sophie Turner*, the actress, was giving a "powerful" performance...crying helplessly in a rape scene.

I'll talk about this more.

Have you heard that Rhaenyra has an army?

IMPORTANT:  I've heard vague rumors about Natalie Dormer being unsatisfied with the show or asking to leave, but no confirmation.  Do you have links or anything?  These would help, I need citations for the wiki and to make other videos.

[Nowy Tends]

4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Why the Stannis storyline failed in Game of Thrones - Emoting & Acting

Interested in everyone's thoughts on this video, also on the Cersei video.

I watched it. It's very interesting, and I share your views, but IMHO you should condense it a bit.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

 

IMPORTANT:  I've heard vague rumors about Natalie Dormer being unsatisfied with the show or asking to leave, but no confirmation.  Do you have links or anything?  These would help, I need citations for the wiki and to make other videos.

Sure thing. gotgifsandmusings talked about it a bit: http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/161625879932/when-did-natalie-dormer-ask-to-be-killed-off-of

Here Natalie talked about forcing D&D to rewrite the scene she had with Tommen in season four: http://www.inquisitr.com/1628378/the-game-of-thrones-scene-that-natalie-dormer-refused-to-do/

And here she admits that she was privately unhappy with some of the issues with the Tudors: http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/75175679.html

Of course, she also spent a lot of time refuting the claims that she was uncomfortable with GOT (although what she said about the Tudors leads me to believe this is a professional move rather than a personal one), mostly by pointing out how no one complains about when a male actor is older than his female love interest. That's certainly true, but it seems more like something someone would say when they're trying to deflect questions about how they feel about what they're being asked rather than give a forward answer. 

[The Dragon Demands]

hmmm.....well, interesting, though as you kind of say, it's not an outright "this entire plotline makes no sense".  Just "I think it's kind of inappropriate to have a full on sex scene with a 17 year old I'm ten years older than, even if he's considered an a legal adult in their medieval society".

Just impressions...not full on quotes yet.  It SEEMS like she's dissatisfied, aren't they all?

Much like Sansa....remember how they said she was going to be a "strong player" in Season 6?  What the hell does "player" mean to them?  Well, they use it to describe "strong" emotive performances (verbatim', "Theon is a strong player in Season 5").  But I'll drop these links on her slide in the Overview video...

[Rhodan]

18 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Why the Stannis storyline failed in Game of Thrones - Emoting & Acting

Interested in everyone's thoughts on this video, also on the Cersei video.

Well, wel, well, Dragon. Believe me, when I saw your video, I instantly knew, what will be the ultimate answer. Anyway, they might have want to give Hedey new material, but don´t forgot it was probably also hint of Harry..... I mean Joffrey´s (and M+T) parentage. Also, I think it is (supposedly) known that first time they made continutiy mistake about that was dialogue between Cersei and Marge when she said that Joffrey is her first child.

Truely, Carol was one of the biggest blunders of the show. Not becouse she was case of unfaithful adaptation, but becouse of downright schizophrenic and inconsistent writing.   

[sweetsunray]

20 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Using the characters names for simplicity's sake, Barristan, Stannis, and Doran have all reflected negatively on their time on the show (particularly concerning D&D), and Margaery was clearly uncomfortable with having to defend the show, and ended up asking them to kill her off halfway through season five. (Seeing as Natalie Dormer has admitted in the past that she lied about not being bothered by the sexism on the Tudors while promoting the show, it wouldn't surprise me if we get a similar revelation concerning GOT in a few years).

The actor for Barristan was flustered, embarrassed and upset that's for sure. Stephen Dillane (Stannis) doesn't sound like he had the time of his acting life and outright says he doesn't know why his character did things. Siddig (Doran) questions the production and is puzzled over what happened, believing something else was in store for him. Only Ian McElhinney expresses his dissatisfaction in a manner that shows he felt duped and betrayed. Dillane and Siddig joined later and shrug it off in a way as - pfff, move one, this show ain't worht it. And Ian McShane went in knowing it was an easy pick up for face-fame with a younger audience who don't know him yet and money, but beforehand made clear he did not regard the show as something serious in any acting sense by calling it "just tits and dragons".

So, I'd say that Dragon's points in the Stannis video are spot on. The experienced professional actors (whether voting for the Emmys OR auditioning for a minor role) do not regard the show as dramatically satisfying, and their trick has run its course. Only the actors who are beholden to the show to jump their acting career still try to make sense of it.

What a total contrast to other ensemble shows where you have actors raving about their experience, working with each other, unable to stop from talking about their character's motivations AND their co-characters AND what the writers gave them as insights, whether they are experienced actors with an already established career or beginning actors. When actors and writers love to give interviews to explain their project and characters' actions each chance they get during or after a show aired, regardless of there being a convention or not, going to podcasts, give tweet interviews, etc, you know it's genuine and that it's a profound experience for them that they want to share. If you've got writers avoiding questions, or mumbling through them with evasive anwers, and actors unable to explain why their character and other characters did this or that about what has been aired, then there is a problem. If you've got professional actors with established careers even hinting at being dismissive about their participation in a series, you've got a huge problem.

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The actor for Barristan was flustered, embarrassed and upset that's for sure. Stephen Dillane (Stannis) doesn't sound like he had the time of his acting life and outright says he doesn't know why his character did things. Siddig (Doran) questions the production and is puzzled over what happened, believing something else was in store for him. Only Ian McElhinney expresses his dissatisfaction in a manner that shows he felt duped and betrayed. Dillane and Siddig joined later and shrug it off in a way as - pfff, move one, this show ain't worht it. And Ian McShane went in knowing it was an easy pick up for face-fame with a younger audience who don't know him yet and money, but beforehand made clear he did not regard the show as something serious in any acting sense by calling it "just tits and dragons".

So, I'd say that Dragon's points in the Stannis video are spot on. The experienced professional actors (whether voting for the Emmys OR auditioning for a minor role) do not regard the show as dramatically satisfying, and their trick has run its course. Only the actors who are beholden to the show to jump their acting career still try to make sense of it.

What a total contrast to other ensemble shows where you have actors raving about their experience, working with each other, unable to stop from talking about their character's motivations AND their co-characters AND what the writers gave them as insights, whether they are experienced actors with an already established career or beginning actors. When actors and writers love to give interviews to explain their project and characters' actions each chance they get during or after a show aired, regardless of there being a convention or not, going to podcasts, give tweet interviews, etc, you know it's genuine and that it's a profound experience for them that they want to share. If you've got writers avoiding questions, or mumbling through them with evasive anwers, and actors unable to explain why their character and other characters did this or that about what has been aired, then there is a problem. If you've got professional actors with established careers even hinting at being dismissive about their participation in a series, you've got a huge problem.

Ian McShane's comment is definitely the most telling. He was the star of one of the most critically-acclaimed HBO shows of all time; he knows what a good show looks like. That's not to say I think GOT is rotten to the core--the earlier seasons had a lot of high points, and I back then I was definitely a true fan of the show. But it boggles my mind that so many people think this is the best TV show ever, or even the best show on HBO. The best special effects, sure, but not the best writing, costumes, or acting. I've already talked a lot about the writing, but I actually don't think the costumes or acting are quite as good as fans make them out to be, either. There are some very strong performances--the Lannisters, Natalie Dormer, Liam Cunningham, Carice van Houten, Alfie Allen, Iain Glen--but most of the others don't really stand out to me. I find most of the Stark actors (Jon, Arya, Sansa, Robb) to be fairly average: not bad, but not all that great, either. I'm also not a fan of Emilia's performance.

I haven't watched some of the more popular HBO shows like The Wire or The Sopranos (although to be honest, mobster show really aren't my thing), but the ones I have watched are all arguably "better" than GOT in one way or another. I haven't finished Deadwood yet, but from what I've seen and what I've heard from others, it's a much more consistent, high-caliber drama. People give True Blood a lot of crap (much of it valid), but it had some excellent character development that's often overlooked, and I simply find it more enjoyable to watch. Alan Ball might go overboard with different plots at times, but he's got a great knack for writing characters, and this is seen even more clearly in Six Feet Under, which is probably my favorite HBO show. Westworld is only one season in, but so far it appears to be much more intricate and complex than GOT, and I mentioned before, is much more delicate with how it addresses violence and misogyny. 

Ultimately, I think GOT has devolved into a fairly shallow, inconsistent show without much interior logic. It wouldn't bother me so much if I hadn't been a fan in the beginning, when the show was at its peak. I think that's the hardest part: I really wanted to still like GOT, but I just don't. Now I'm watching purely for resolution. 

 

On a side note, seeing how unpopular D&D are among some GOT alumni, I wasn't surprised when Size13 claimed that they'd find HBO-issued fake leaks "hilarious." That just seems like the type of people they are. So while a lot of people shoot down those theories, it wouldn't really be that unexpected from them. 

[Le Cygne]

Too bad they didn't scrap the wight hunt after all the criticism.

On second thought, they could have just made it an expedition to observe a wight, leaders sending a trusted envoy to report back. Instead, they engage an army in order to enlist help to engage an army.

[The Dragon Demands]

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 7:17 AM, Rhodan said:

Well, wel, well, Dragon. Believe me, when I saw your video, I instantly knew, what will be the ultimate answer.

Well, as GRRM has said, it doesn't matter if we know the "how" in historical fiction, what's more important is the why.  "Wow, shock, Red Wedding happened!" isn't really so important as the motivations and mindsets that went into it.  WHY people make decisions is more important.

So I'm making future videos on Battle of the Bastards/Jon Snow, Arya, and Ramsay/Sansa rape.

You can guess why those really happened.  We were wrong before.  But the videos give the "WHY", the real important details behind it.

Like....when you see a documentary on the Rwandan genocide or starving Syrian refugees.  We kind of already know what happened.  But ....the documentary still hurts, still stings, to see the actual specifics of how it all happened.  That this wasn't just a snap decision, but how many things went wrong, how many people turned a blind eye to what was really happening in slow motion around them.