Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[Cas Stark]

But, why did the wights manage to be able to go in the water.....when they couldn't cross unless it was frozen?  

[Le Cygne]

Ok, I know this y’all’s Timberlake, but I’m kind of over Pomade Jesus man...

Is that some new shit, you get crowned King and all of a sudden your ass lookin’ like you can’t ride the rides at Space Mountain or some shit?...

Kissed By Fire Clegane is bored and throwing rocks at the wights...

Back in The Young and the Winterfell, Sansa is up in Arya’s room, I guess looking for the note...

http://blacknerdproblems.com/game-of-thrones-recap-beyond-the-wall/

[SerProle]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

But, why did the wights manage to be able to go in the water.....when they couldn't cross unless it was frozen?  

Scuba zombies hadn't arrived yet.

[Prince of the North]

3 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Indeed, a nicely timed unkindness of ravens swooping in and helping the magnificent seven would have been awesome.  Oh well....

 

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

And unkindness of ravens! I would have liked that. Or a "murder of crows"!

 

2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Yep, either would've been great. 

HA!  Yes, I like the "Unkindness of Ravens" reference and I immediately thought of throwing in a "Murder of crows" (the official mascot of the NW), too, but Le Cygne beat me to it

[Rohlin_the_Wretched]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

But, why did the wights manage to be able to go in the water.....when they couldn't cross unless it was frozen?  

Easy.  The wights can't swim ... they also can't drown because they are dead.  It wasn't they couldn't go into the water, it was just they would sink to the bottom.  Which is perfect for getting chains on the dead Viserion, just they are stuck at the bottom.  The Night King can replace his army almost at will, so it doesn't if a few wights are stuck at the bottom of the lake.

As far as all the complaining about the Night King, not taking out Drogon and the army's stop at Hardhome Depot, there is an explanation that fits most of your complaints.  If the theory about Bran is correct and he is the Night King, then Bran King could have had a vision of Viserion being killed by his spear and plummeting into the lake.  This would explain why he changed targets at the last moment and how the army had chains to pull Viserion out of the water.  Once the Walkers took Hardhome, the Night King could have had the chains forge there and brought with them to the lake.  It would also explain how the army suddenly appeared after the wight was captured.  It might have also been a trap set by the Night King because he had a vision of Jon trying to get a wight.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ NAh, it's cause D&D are stupid.

[Cas Stark]

12 minutes ago, Rohlin_the_Wretched said:

Easy.  The wights can't swim ... they also can't drown because they are dead.  It wasn't they couldn't go into the water, it was just they would sink to the bottom.  Which is perfect for getting chains on the dead Viserion, just they are stuck at the bottom.  The Night King can replace his army almost at will, so it doesn't if a few wights are stuck at the bottom of the lake.

As far as all the complaining about the Night King, not taking out Drogon and the army's stop at Hardhome Depot, there is an explanation that fits most of your complaints.  If the theory about Bran is correct and he is the Night King, then Bran King could have had a vision of Viserion being killed by his spear and plummeting into the lake.  This would explain why he changed targets at the last moment and how the army had chains to pull Viserion out of the water.  Once the Walkers took Hardhome, the Night King could have had the chains forge there and brought with them to the lake.  It would also explain how the army suddenly appeared after the wight was captured.  It might have also been a trap set by the Night King because he had a vision of Jon trying to get a wight.

Might.  Could.  May.  Theory.

Or, the occam's razor explanation:  the show is sloppy and poorly constructed.

Evidence for this is the director of the episode admitting that they were stretching credulity with that segment.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Also, what would make anyone think that weapon would do so much damage to a dragon?

Valyrian steel kills the WW's as does Dragonglass as does Dragonfire, but somehow that ice spear was able to pierce the dragonskin and just murder the fuck out of Viserion? NO SENSE IS MADE HERE

[Skills]

19 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Also, what would make anyone think that weapon would do so much damage to a dragon?

Valyrian steel kills the WW's as does Dragonglass as does Dragonfire, but somehow that ice spear was able to pierce the dragonskin and just murder the fuck out of Viserion? NO SENSE IS MADE HERE

It's probably not just some ordinary ice spear, but imbued with whatever dark magic the Night King has at his disposal.

At least that's how I took it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

22 minutes ago, Skills said:

It's probably not just some ordinary ice spear, but imbued with whatever dark magic the Night King has at his disposal.

At least that's how I took it.

Well yes the weapons of the White Walkers do have their magic in them. What I am saying is that time and time again, books and show, we see that Dragon/Valyrian-related things have the power to kill WW's, their weapons even disappear when killed with Dragonglass IIRC. So why is it reversed all-of-a-sudden? Fire melts Ice, Ice does nothing to fire.

[Prince of the North]

I just thought of this: Do you know what would have worked much better than the incredibly stupid anchor chains from the Titanic?  They should have simply had the NK walk or swim down (after all, what does he have to fear from cold water?) to Viserion's body, mount up, resurrect him and then ride him up outta the lake, dripping water and belching blue flame!  Woulda looked pretty cool (because, let's face it, that's really all they're after) and would have solved the ridiculousness of the "chains ex machina". 

Also, the idea that the wights were afraid to fall in the water doesn't make any sense.  It couldn't kill them.  It would probably slow them but they could simply walk or crawl on the bottom.  Unless we're to believe that the Others/wights can't cross water or something?  I guess that could make some sense if it were established somehow.  I've always wondered why the Others didn't have their undead army simply build a bunch of ships/rafts and just go around the Wall?  I mean, unlike Euron and the Iron Islands they actually do have plenty of timber north o' the Wall  

[Wizz-The-Smith]

39 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

I just thought of this: Do you know what would have worked much better than the incredibly stupid anchor chains from the Titanic?  They should have simply had the NK walk or swim down (after all, what does he have to fear from cold water?) to Viserion's body, mount up, resurrect him and then ride him up outta the lake, dripping water and belching blue flame!  Woulda looked pretty cool (because, let's face it, that's really all they're after) and would have solved the ridiculousness of the "chains ex machina". 

I agree.  My thinking was along them lines too, a 'come at me bro' raise of the arms and ice zombie Viserion comes crashing up out of the water.  I'm loving your version though, the Night King disappearing underwater only to reappear riding Viserion whilst spitting blue flame!!  Would have been awesome.    

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

was half expecting there to be a hundred or more WW hanging on to Viserions body as they pulled him out.... as they can't die from drowning and when they saw the chains on him... it would make sense to climb on for the ride.

[sweetsunray]

54 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

(because, let's face it, that's really all they're after

It is! They alter their lore for the cool shots.

In S1 it's established that a wight on fire drops. Then its established that WW shatter by contact with dragonglass.

Then they wrote Hardhome: the event that isn't on page in the books (because GRRM knows that mistery is far more effective than showing wtf happened out there), for Kit Harrington to show his sword-acting and staring angrily at the NK. They want it scary and shocking and overrun so that all Jon can do is retreat onto the boats. With the Walking Dead as show, they don't want to do average moving zombies, so they opt for super speedy skeletons. And though shit's on fire (because houses on fire is always cool on screen and you need light from somewhere no?) the army of the dead must win and not just drop dead just because of hot embers and smoldering coals (Sam kills a wight by stuffing a coal in his mouth, that's all it takes), so they have the WW fizz out the fires and flames, and wights can still do damage even if on fire. Kit Harrington must be the hero though and if Sam can kill a WW then surely Kit must too, so they have the duel and the WW shatter into thousand splinters instead of becoming a puddle (why doesn't have anyone have scars from the shattering WW ice splinters? They explode FFS! They're ice splinter bombs when they die), because again that looks way cooler than dissolving into a puddle of water. 

Then we get to this epi, written with the aim to give the NK an "ice" dragon. Though they have featured the WW on dead horses (though lately the horses seem living ones, not half rotted ones), they haven't shown the NK or WW using a predator animal yet as a wight. So, how better to seed and establish that WW use wighted predator animals? Let's get a bear in there (ok, there was one at the attack of the Fist). Fur is difficult for CGI, so let's have him in a fog to osbcure the CGI issues with fur. This means they can't use the bear in the ice-lake scene, because if it's foggy there, they can't have all these cool shots of fighting and dragons flying. So, he's the first the 7M encounter. It' stupid to have a CGI bear in there without him having do some damage. They also want to have Beric and Thoros using flaming swords, because that looks so very cool. But they can't have the bear drop the instant his skull is getting overheated. So, they have the CGI bear fighting and continuing to do damage even while he's burning up.

Problem! How are we gonna get the bear killed then? Dragonglass. Canonical change and they officially declare this in epi 2 and epi 3:wights can be killed with dragonglass. And it opens possibilities for the 7M to have a battle with the wights and have wights drop the instant they're touched by dragonglass. It's why they don't even have the 7M bother with making a ring of fire with whatever they have on hand.

But before the battle of the ice lake they have the wight patrol: with that lure of building a cooking fire. WW doesn't even bother to fizz that one out. The 7M fight the wights, but to make it tenseful they're having a hard time one-to-one each. Apparently nobody uses their dragonglass here. You'd think the commander would instructed them from the get go which weapon to use. But no. Of course not. With one-on-one and not threatened to be overrun in that moment, it just looks dumb. Instead they want a different special effect.

Ah well, if Kit kills the WW then all the other wights drop and shatter and fall apart. Looks cool again. And now they have their set-up for the finale battle with the NK for S8: Kit is gonna duel with the NK and then his whole army will drop.

Then we have all the shennanigans of the wights with water. They drop in the water and can't do a thing except be at the bottom. But lo and behold they somehow can swim up through a fishing hole and grab Tormund's ankles.

When the dragons come and blowtorch the wights on that ice lake, most of the lake's ice sheet is melted away. But Kit must still show off his swordplay and Dany must realize she loves him and see him die, so half of the lake is ice again with wights rushing on.

And wights wielding axes and swords is what's needed to actually create a battle sequence, so wights use weaponry since S7 too.

They've done and changed how to kill wights and wight abilities purely based on what they wanted as result and as visual effect in the battle episode or fight sequences. Then it's x, next y, but x isn't so helpful after all, but let's make z the all replacement what normally x does, but don't let them use z in that scene, and let's do a there.

 

 

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

I just thought of this: Do you know what would have worked much better than the incredibly stupid anchor chains from the Titanic?  They should have simply had the NK walk or swim down (after all, what does he have to fear from cold water?) to Viserion's body, mount up, resurrect him and then ride him up outta the lake, dripping water and belching blue flame!  Woulda looked pretty cool (because, let's face it, that's really all they're after) and would have solved the ridiculousness of the "chains ex machina".

That would have been better. Very dramatic!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

41 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It is! They alter their lore for the cool shots.

In S1 it's established that a wight on fire drops. Then its established that WW shatter by contact with dragonglass.

Then they wrote Hardhome: the event that isn't on page in the books (because GRRM knows that mistery is far more effective than showing wtf happened out there), for Kit Harrington to show his sword-acting and staring angrily at the NK. They want it scary and shocking and overrun so that all Jon can do is retreat onto the boats. With the Walking Dead as show, they don't want to do average moving zombies, so they opt for super speedy skeletons. And though shit's on fire (because houses on fire is always cool on screen and you need light from somewhere no?) the army of the dead must win and not just drop dead just because of hot embers and smoldering coals (Sam kills a wight by stuffing a coal in his mouth, that's all it takes), so they have the WW fizz out the fires and flames, and wights can still do damage even if on fire. Kit Harrington must be the hero though and if Sam can kill a WW then surely Kit must too, so they have the duel and the WW shatter into thousand splinters instead of becoming a puddle (why doesn't have anyone have scars from the shattering WW ice splinters? They explode FFS! They're ice splinter bombs when they die), because again that looks way cooler than dissolving into a puddle of water. 

Then we get to this epi, written with the aim to give the NK an "ice" dragon. Though they have featured the WW on dead horses (though lately the horses seem living ones, not half rotted ones), they haven't shown the NK or WW using a predator animal yet as a wight. So, how better to seed and establish that WW use wighted predator animals? Let's get a bear in there (ok, there was one at the attack of the Fist). Fur is difficult for CGI, so let's have him in a fog to osbcure the CGI issues with fur. This means they can't use the bear in the ice-lake scene, because if it's foggy there, they can't have all these cool shots of fighting and dragons flying. So, he's the first the 7M encounter. It' stupid to have a CGI bear in there without him having do some damage. They also want to have Beric and Thoros using flaming swords, because that looks so very cool. But they can't have the bear drop the instant his skull is getting overheated. So, they have the CGI bear fighting and continuing to do damage even while he's burning up.

Problem! How are we gonna get the bear killed then? Dragonglass. Canonical change and they officially declare this in epi 2 and epi 3:wights can be killed with dragonglass. And it opens possibilities for the 7M to have a battle with the wights and have wights drop the instant they're touched by dragonglass. It's why they don't even have the 7M bother with making a ring of fire with whatever they have on hand.

But before the battle of the ice lake they have the wight patrol: with that lure of building a cooking fire. WW doesn't even bother to fizz that one out. The 7M fight the wights, but to make it tenseful they're having a hard time one-to-one each. Apparently nobody uses their dragonglass here. You'd think the commander would instructed them from the get go which weapon to use. But no. Of course not. With one-on-one and not threatened to be overrun in that moment, it just looks dumb. Instead they want a different special effect.

Ah well, if Kit kills the WW then all the other wights drop and shatter and fall apart. Looks cool again. And now they have their set-up for the finale battle with the NK for S8: Kit is gonna duel with the NK and then his whole army will drop.

Then we have all the shennanigans of the wights with water. They drop in the water and can't do a thing except be at the bottom. But lo and behold they somehow can swim up through a fishing hole and grab Tormund's ankles.

When the dragons come and blowtorch the wights on that ice lake, most of the lake's ice sheet is melted away. But Kit must still show off his swordplay and Dany must realize she loves him and see him die, so half of the lake is ice again with wights rushing on.

And wights wielding axes and swords is what's needed to actually create a battle sequence, so wights use weaponry since S7 too.

They've done and changed how to kill wights and wight abilities purely based on what they wanted as result and as visual effect in the battle episode or fight sequences. Then it's x, next y, but x isn't so helpful after all, but let's make z the all replacement what normally x does, but don't let them use z in that scene, and let's do a there.

 

 

Ok I LOVE the way yoo just explained all that!!! I hadnt really thought much about it but you are completely right!

to me it seems that the wights dont think on their own, that the WW's are each guiding their own battalions I guess. So each WW that gets killed some of the army will drop, only based on what we saw this past Sunday. However if you look at Hardhome-- none of the wights drop at all when Jon kills the WW. 

Also IIRC, the WW in the book puddles along with his weapons when killed. So how can a WW have a sword fight with Jon while he's using Longclaw? Wouldnt it just slice right through the WW's weapon as well? This goes back to my other issue that the NK's magic javelin would be able to kill a dragon. Fire defeats ice, but it does seem to be selective based on getting the 'cool shot' as you said.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

That would have been better. Very dramatic!

Agreed. I have a huge issue with chains. 

I wish someone who is a D&D-show defender would please please come on this thread and explain where those GD chains came from!?

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Agreed. I have a huge issue with chains. 

I wish someone who is a D&D-show defender would please please come on this thread and explain where those GD chains came from!?

That would be off-topic, and create debate in a non-debate thread.

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

to me it seems that the wights dont think on their own, that the WW's are each guiding their own battalions I guess. So each WW that gets killed some of the army will drop, only based on what we saw this past Sunday. However if you look at Hardhome-- none of the wights drop at all when Jon kills the WW. 

Also IIRC, the WW in the book puddles along with his weapons when killed. So how can a WW have a sword fight with Jon while he's using Longclaw? Wouldnt it just slice right through the WW's weapon as well? This goes back to my other issue that the NK's magic javelin would be able to kill a dragon. Fire defeats ice, but it does seem to be selective based on getting the 'cool shot' as you said.

Exactly! Wights should have exploded and drop at Hardhome when Jon killed the WW. They didn't. And indeed: the WW died upon his sword meeting Jon's Longclaw back at Hardhome. Now they can duel and it's only when Jon's Longclaw makes contact with the WW's ice armor that he blows up.

They invent and change the rules as they go along, and for one reason only: what makes a cool shot.

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It is! They alter their lore for the cool shots.

In S1 it's established that a wight on fire drops. Then its established that WW shatter by contact with dragonglass.

Then they wrote Hardhome: the event that isn't on page in the books (because GRRM knows that mistery is far more effective than showing wtf happened out there), for Kit Harrington to show his sword-acting and staring angrily at the NK. They want it scary and shocking and overrun so that all Jon can do is retreat onto the boats. With the Walking Dead as show, they don't want to do average moving zombies, so they opt for super speedy skeletons. And though shit's on fire (because houses on fire is always cool on screen and you need light from somewhere no?) the army of the dead must win and not just drop dead just because of hot embers and smoldering coals (Sam kills a wight by stuffing a coal in his mouth, that's all it takes), so they have the WW fizz out the fires and flames, and wights can still do damage even if on fire. Kit Harrington must be the hero though and if Sam can kill a WW then surely Kit must too, so they have the duel and the WW shatter into thousand splinters instead of becoming a puddle (why doesn't have anyone have scars from the shattering WW ice splinters? They explode FFS! They're ice splinter bombs when they die), because again that looks way cooler than dissolving into a puddle of water. 

Then we get to this epi, written with the aim to give the NK an "ice" dragon. Though they have featured the WW on dead horses (though lately the horses seem living ones, not half rotted ones), they haven't shown the NK or WW using a predator animal yet as a wight. So, how better to seed and establish that WW use wighted predator animals? Let's get a bear in there (ok, there was one at the attack of the Fist). Fur is difficult for CGI, so let's have him in a fog to osbcure the CGI issues with fur. This means they can't use the bear in the ice-lake scene, because if it's foggy there, they can't have all these cool shots of fighting and dragons flying. So, he's the first the 7M encounter. It' stupid to have a CGI bear in there without him having do some damage. They also want to have Beric and Thoros using flaming swords, because that looks so very cool. But they can't have the bear drop the instant his skull is getting overheated. So, they have the CGI bear fighting and continuing to do damage even while he's burning up.

Problem! How are we gonna get the bear killed then? Dragonglass. Canonical change and they officially declare this in epi 2 and epi 3:wights can be killed with dragonglass. And it opens possibilities for the 7M to have a battle with the wights and have wights drop the instant they're touched by dragonglass. It's why they don't even have the 7M bother with making a ring of fire with whatever they have on hand.

But before the battle of the ice lake they have the wight patrol: with that lure of building a cooking fire. WW doesn't even bother to fizz that one out. The 7M fight the wights, but to make it tenseful they're having a hard time one-to-one each. Apparently nobody uses their dragonglass here. You'd think the commander would instructed them from the get go which weapon to use. But no. Of course not. With one-on-one and not threatened to be overrun in that moment, it just looks dumb. Instead they want a different special effect.

Ah well, if Kit kills the WW then all the other wights drop and shatter and fall apart. Looks cool again. And now they have their set-up for the finale battle with the NK for S8: Kit is gonna duel with the NK and then his whole army will drop.

Then we have all the shennanigans of the wights with water. They drop in the water and can't do a thing except be at the bottom. But lo and behold they somehow can swim up through a fishing hole and grab Tormund's ankles.

When the dragons come and blowtorch the wights on that ice lake, most of the lake's ice sheet is melted away. But Kit must still show off his swordplay and Dany must realize she loves him and see him die, so half of the lake is ice again with wights rushing on.

And wights wielding axes and swords is what's needed to actually create a battle sequence, so wights use weaponry since S7 too.

They've done and changed how to kill wights and wight abilities purely based on what they wanted as result and as visual effect in the battle episode or fight sequences. Then it's x, next y, but x isn't so helpful after all, but let's make z the all replacement what normally x does, but don't let them use z in that scene, and let's do a there.

I don't know why, but the contortionist mental leaps they use to get from one point to the next makes me think of the Red Green Show with similar quality results. Duct tape on duct tape on duct tape...

 

[Prince of the North]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It is! They alter their lore for the cool shots.

[snip]

Great, detailed description!  They really are just all over the place.  There has been no internal consistency for a very long time.