Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[Mindwalker]

3 hours ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

What has this to do with ranting you guys may ask?

Well there are some questions that appear again and again in the Rant and Rave threads. "Why do you keep watching?", "why do you hate the show so much?", etc. I suggest that we make an FAQ that answers all these questions and that we put at the beginning of every Rant and Rave thread. I would be willing to write it, but if someone else wants to do it feel free to do so. 

 

Very good idea, please do! I'm sure there are other crafty people who would collaborate.

 

The FAQ could also point out the contradictions of these repetitive questions... I mean, there are some trolls coming back again and again to this thread (not alluding to recent posters, mind you), so I'd beg to ask: If this thread bothers you so much, why do you come back to it? Which is also a nice answer to the question of why we are watching the show...

[Liver and Onions]

5 hours ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

 

How can you say that the HP movies are better than the books? That's heresy 

Just kidding I like the movies well enoug, but I'm among those that have grown up with HP. My grandma read the first book to me before I could read and I listened to the audiobooks so many times that my mother hid my cassette player, because she was getting annoyed  When the first movie came out my family went to the cinema with me and I guess I annoyed the entire audience, because I knew the books by heart and everytime I noticed a change I started to talk about how they changed it from the books  .

I normally like the books better than it's adaptation. The only example of where I liked a movie better than the book it's based on is "Fifty Shades of Grey" . The movie wasn't good, but the book was just so terribly. 

Still it doesn't mean that I dislike movies that are based on books. I enjoyed the HP movies well enough. While I think that the LotR books are better than the movies, I love the movies. They are my favourite movies of all time and I enjoy watching them over and over again.

 

Ha hah! Well, I wouldn't say the HP movies are better. I just enjoy them more. Of course, I grew up on a lot of British TV. One example where the movie is better than the book is Jaws, which is one of my favorite movies. 

[Le Cygne]

On 4/2/2017 at 8:55 AM, Liver and Onions said:

You know, regarding tough interview questions, if they just came out and said, "we wanted it that way for dramatic purposes," what do you all think the general reaction would be? Instead of trying to make it look like it's all one grand plan, they admit, at least for a few plot points (the gist I'm getting from the show that this is far more prevalent) they just made stuff up because they wanted to. Would listeners let that slide, thinking that they enjoy the spectacle and a "few" (hah) senseless reversals aren't going to hurt their viewing pleasure? Some would probably double-down on the the "genius" aspect of the show runners. Would anyone else realize they've been had? Would they care?

I admit, sometimes I feel like a hypocrite. Most folks I know are looking forward to next season, while I'm looking forward to the next book. And yet I like other adaptations better than their source material, such as the Harry Potter movies over the books (I like the cast, really). Heck, I even enjoyed the Hobbit movies (not over the book, mind you, but as movies, even though the last one was... let's just say it had the most "whats" per minute of all the Middle Earth films.) So, yeah, who wants to be That Person who sniffs and says, "the books were better." Except they are. MUCH better. 

I have found many adaptations to be better (or more enjoyable as you say) than the books, too. And some adaptations are just not good at all. Still, if you've read and liked a book or book series, seeing even a few nice book scenes play out on screen is interesting. Also in the case of this book series, the show will tell the ending (sort of, presumably) first.

[Le Cygne]

The showrunners/writers said this about the Jaime/Cersei scene:

Benioff:

"It becomes a really kind of horrifying scene, because you see, obviously, Joffrey's body right there, and you see that Cersei is resisting this. She's saying no, and he's forcing himself on her. So it was a really uncomfortable scene, and a tricky scene to shoot."

Again, Benioff:

"You are right to be disturbed by it. I think it was a brutal scene... It felt to us when we were writing it like this is something the character was going to do at that moment. And it was a horrible thing to do."

[Byfort of Corfe]

21 hours ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

The most common reasons are: 

1. The show will give us an ending before the books do.

2. Hate-watching can be fun and talking about it as well.

3. For some people it's just hard to stop once they have invested so much time into it in the past when they still liked the show. Now they want to know how it ends.

4. Hope that it will get better, but I guess many people here are past that point. 

If you want a longer answer I can recommend listening to this podcast: https://www.thefandomentals.com/hate-watching-podcast/

See for me, if I don't like something like a book or show, I'll just bail.  I've walked out of movies.  It's why I don't care if/when Winds of Winter comes out, after books 4&5 which were basically just filler I figure that I have better things to do with my time.  Different strokes I guess.  I'll watch the series because it amuses me, I enjoy it.

[Mindwalker]

7 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

See for me, if I don't like something like a book or show, I'll just bail.  I've walked out of movies.  It's why I don't care if/when Winds of Winter comes out, after books 4&5 which were basically just filler I figure that I have better things to do with my time.  Different strokes I guess.  I'll watch the series because it amuses me, I enjoy it.

Thanks for sharing.

[Liver and Onions]

Honestly, there are times when, if something is disappointing enough and I don't like where it's heading, I will ditch a story. So I can't blame someone if they feel this way. However, like many others, I'm still excited about ASOIAF and and waiting patiently for the next volume. The show, on the other, has not only become a crass disappointment, but it's a pop culture juggernaut that is overriding the books.

My opinions on the liking the Harry Potter movies better the books make me part of a small group. I'm cool with that, it's a personal preference. But how often are book fans called snobs and elitists for complaining about this adaptation of ASOAIF? And whatever criticisms one can lodge against the HP or LOTR movies, they kept the spirit of the stories intact and were respectful of the source material. (The Hobbit movies... maybe less so, but there was at least still love in them.) Has anyone who said they prefer either of those book series to the films been smeared as elitist? (seriously asking) Given, this is probably a false equivalency, since those two series were largely adapted well (I think). I might have to find poorer yet still superior to GOT adaptations as examples.

 

[Byfort of Corfe]

2 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

Thanks for sharing.

You are more than welcome.  Thank you for caring.

[Byfort of Corfe]

2 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

Honestly, there are times when, if something is disappointing enough and I don't like where it's heading, I will ditch a story. So I can't blame someone if they feel this way. However, like many others, I'm still excited about ASOIAF and and waiting patiently for the next volume. The show, on the other, has not only become a crass disappointment, but it's a pop culture juggernaut that is overriding the books.

My opinions on the liking the Harry Potter movies better the books make me part of a small group. I'm cool with that, it's a personal preference. But how often are book fans called snobs and elitists for complaining about this adaptation of ASOAIF? And whatever criticisms one can lodge against the HP or LOTR movies, they kept the spirit of the stories intact and were respectful of the source material. (The Hobbit movies... maybe less so, but there was at least still love in them.) Has anyone who said they prefer either of those book series to the films been smeared as elitist? (seriously asking) Given, this is probably a false equivalency, since those two series were largely adapted well (I think). I might have to find poorer yet still superior to GOT adaptations as examples.

 

It is why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

[Pink Fat Rast]

3 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

(The Hobbit movies... maybe less so, but there was at least still love in them.)

Well, we all know how DD hate and despise the source material, don't we.

 

Quote

Has anyone who said they prefer either of those book series to the films been smeared as elitist? (seriously asking) Given, this is probably a false equivalency, since those two series were largely adapted well (I think). I might have to find poorer yet still superior to GOT adaptations as examples.

LOTR yes - HP and Hobbit not that I'm aware of.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

13 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

See for me, if I don't like something like a book or show, I'll just bail.  I've walked out of movies.  It's why I don't care if/when Winds of Winter comes out, after books 4&5 which were basically just filler I figure that I have better things to do with my time.  Different strokes I guess.  I'll watch the series because it amuses me, I enjoy it.

You seem to not enjoy this thread yet haven't bailed, why?

[Pink Fat Rast]

On 19.11.2016 at 0:00 AM, kg1982 said:

Have you seen the Red Letter You Tube videos on the prequels?  So funny and a very good understanding of storytelling.  Someone read Joseph Campbell.

 

On 19.11.2016 at 10:33 AM, kg1982 said:

You think that Jon is one of the showrunners' favs.  If he was, then they would portray him as a competent person rather than a dithering idiot.  And also they wouldn't have him kneel to Snowflake Targaryen.  The producers are fans of Dany; the girl is portrayed as never doing anything wrong.

Um, wasn't S5 all about her doing "wrong things" while trying to rule? Beheading Mossador, causing a riot among the people who worshipped her (to her shock), and then turning into a vulnerable flower running away from rocks while protected with shields by her guards?

What about listing all the Westerosi houses and effectively calling all of them bad, didn't that show her to still be a biased zealot?

Maybe they're portraying her as a "perfect goddess" when she's conquering bad guys, but it's very likely she's gonna start doing wrong things as soon as she sets foot in W - either that or desperately rely on Tyrion's advice and moderation which might not be enough.



So...

On 19.11.2016 at 0:00 AM, kg1982 said:

Have you seen the Red Letter You Tube videos on the prequels?  So funny and a very good understanding of storytelling.  Someone read Joseph Campbell.

it's really ironic that the same guy who insisted Dany was flawless in the show (or the later seasons anyway) also worships the RLM prequel videos, which are EXTREMELY sloppy in their analysis and certainly don't deserve the inexplicable praise they're still getting.


The same thing applies to this "Rant&&&" thread, a lot of points made here are either wrong or really biased and it certainly doesn't qualify as the "voice of reason among superficial shill fanboy apologists" it fancies itself as - it's hilarious when some commenters here go "if only the wide world realized what we realize" when a good percentage of that is actually BS.

So whoever came up with the idea of creating this thread "without Repercussions" was probably wiser than most posters on it realize



Anyway, so yeah all those posters who come here and go like "why are you watching and talking about a show that you hate" - you're on a thread for angry zealots to say whatever BS they want without repercussions. Whom, or what aspect of human nature, do you exactly think you're trying to appeal to here?
Reply to their points in another thread if you feel like it, and chill.

[Rhodan]

I would like to add thet despite this thread´s theme and my fundamental problems, I still think the show has moments I might like to watch and as I said, it seems too silly abandoning it when it is effectively ending. If I had only occasional problems in the first four seasons, I simply feel punch in my guts after serious issues with seasons 5 and 6 of mine. People talk about decline in quality of continuing media while hoping for the better next installment all the time. 

[Dolorous Gabe]

Funny how ranters are labelled "angry zealots" when the most in-depth and intelligent analyses I have read came from said ranters.

I admit I stopped watching The Walking Dead but I never read the source material and don't really care how it ends or who survives, especially with no end in sight (although I haven't watched for a season or two).

I'm invested in GoT mostly because of the books but we obviously don't know when we'll get an end to them.

 

4 hours ago, Rhodan said:

People talk about decline in quality of continuing media while hoping for the better next installment all the time. 

This is very true. People complain about Feast and Dance all the time but they'll still read Winds when it finally arrives.

[Pink Fat Rast]

14 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Funny how ranters are labelled "angry zealots" when the most in-depth and intelligent analyses I have read came from said ranters.

Well there's different kinds on here you know.

This is very true. People complain about Feast and Dance all the time but they'll still read Winds when it finally arrives.

I think they expect Winds to be much better, because they attribute the flaws of 4-5 to the difficulties of juggling all those divergent, concurrent plot lines - 6 is supposed to start "pulling together again".

[Rhodan]

5 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

This is very true. People complain about Feast and Dance all the time but they'll still read Winds when it finally arrives.

I still find it kinda "amusing" how books and show became kinda opposite extremes. In one, direct plot has lost itself in the web of worldbuilding and character stuff, in the other the simplified and  linear version of the story got the prominence. I believe that relatively soon we might have both TWOW and season 7, so it will be interesting how for the first time it will be more "comparision" than "competion".     

[Liver and Onions]

The show's ending will only be the conclusion to its own story, not the books. Even if it is the only ending we get (which I doubt), it has no bearing on the books. It is as adaptation, and an increasingly poor (and to some, insulting) one. Even so, I find nothing wrong with others enjoying the show whether or not they think it's good.

[Pink Fat Rast]

They said the endings are gonna be the same but the paths there different tho?

[Pink Fat Rast]

8 hours ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

Others probably feel differrently, but for me the ending of the show can never be  the same as the ending of the books.  

1. D&D only know the ending for some of the characters. I forgot the exact number maybe it was 12 maybe it was 14 I don' t know. They don't know the ending for all characters. So in some cases their fate will differ.  The show has killed off several characters that are still alive in the books, but GRRM said that some of these characters will survive in the books. Some people might not care about this stuff but I do.

2. I want to see how all the stuff that the show has left out will play out. In some cases I can understand why they cut it in others not. Point is I want to know what happens:  I'm interested in finding out what happened to Benjen, he's not Coldhands in the books, Aegon's and Jon Con's story, of course I want to know what happens to Arianne, how will the meeting between Jaime, Brienne and LSH play out?, what will Sansa and LF do in the Vale? who was the hooded man at Winterfell?, etc. The show will never tell me those things. 

3. So what will be the same? Probably the fate of some major characters like the Lannisters, the Starks and Daenerys. Those who die in the show will most likely be dead in the books as well. Whoever will sit on the IT in the show will most likely do so in the books as well. The things is... for me most characters on the show have very little in common with their book counterparts at this point. The show might tell me where the characters end up, but I doubt that it will tell me how the book!characters feel and who they've become. That's because..

4. Context matters: A lot! I know many people only want to know where the characters will end up, but the journey there is important for shaping the characters. Just like in real life different experiences have different effects on them. The characters who probably differ the most from their book counterparts are probably Sansa and Jaime and that's only natural, because their journeys have been changed so much. Both in the books and the show Jon gets stabbed and Theon jumps of the Wall of Winterfell with Ramsay's wife. The way these things happen is just so different that it makes a very different story for me. I wouldn't be surprised if it's gonna be like that with the ending as well.

The show spoiled some stuff like Jon's ressurection or that Sheireen will burn. The former is something that I was pretty certain was gonna happen in TWOW. The show just confirmed my suspicion. The thing I'm more interested in than "will he come back or not?" is "how will he be changed?". I think this will be different in the books. Stannis might burn Sheireen, but the way in which this happens and why it happens will be completely different in the books. Even when I know what is gonna happen, I still want to know how it's gonna happen and how it's gonna affect the characters. 

So, I believe that the show can only give us the endinf for the show itself. Some people may find it satisfying others may not, but I don't think GoT will give us the the same  ending as ASOIAF. 

Yea nah I agree with most of that, I don't even know why I posted that previous comment lol - it was supposed to be a response to the one above, but now I look at it and it kinda doesn't make sense

[Pink Fat Rast]

On 27.11.2016 at 11:07 AM, sweetsunray said:

Totally agree. That's like saying it's "more realistic" that Glovers and Umbers and basically every other lord will not help out Ned's "son" against the Boltons who actively planned and murdered their king and many of their family and men at the RW, because the king married the wrong girl. That's as nonsensical as killing Doran to avenge the death of Doran's sister and brother who were killed by Lannisters. 

The Glovers FEARED the Boltons, and didn't think the Starks were worthy anymore to risk being skinned - they didn't "prefer the Boltons" despite "Boltons being more dishonourable", it was a slightly more complicated equation than that you know.

I get the details mixed up, but Glover said Robb had let him down and "let the Greyjoys brutalize his people" - by getting himself killed because he couldn't control his cock? Or earlier than that?

Anyway that was roughly the rationale he offered - had Sansa's army been strong enough to just sweep over the Boltons (i.e. had Sansa told him about the Vale :D), he would've welcomed it because he didn't particularly enjoy living under flaying tyrants.
 

And the Sands' actions weren't presented as rational or consistent with "the modern West's revenge ideals" either - they clearly punished Doran for being too weak to seek revenge, it's a as plausible a mindset for humans to have as any.


A bit more rationality in your criticisms please, if that's okay.