Little Scribe of Naath

Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

1,387 posts in this topic

Yes, Rickard was killing Lannisters (boys who had nothing to do with his own sons' deaths, sadly). But they were the only Lannisters around, and he was pissed. No doubt he felt Cat might free them as well. His vengeance is wrong, but it has some logic. Arnolf's plots come after that, as a result of what becomes of Rickard's vengeance. Actions have consequences, lots and lots of consequences. 

Ellaria killing Doran because, I guess, he's not on board with the revenge thing? Eh? He's an obstacle? Which is opposite from the books where he's been playing the long game (take a drink every time a character is the opposite of their book counterpart.) I guess she's mad and she's just gotta stab something? Poor Doran just happened to be sitting right there... It's Bizarro Dorne! 

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5 minutes ago, teej6 said:

That plot is from the books. If you've read the books you'd know. Arnolf is Rickard's uncle and I assumed you were talking of Arnolf's betrayal coz he's the only Karstark who is betraying his kin. Even in the case of Rickard's storyline in the books, it's nothing like Ellaria and the Sand Snakes plot on the show. Rickard wanted revenge for the murder of his sons who were cut down by Jamie. Cat deprived him of his revenge by freeing Jamie and so he killed some other Lannisters instead. He didn't go kill his own kin for revenge. Big difference. Read the books before you point to it. The Karstarks eventually abandon Robb because he executes Arnold, still no killing of kin here.

 

4 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

You misunderstood the OP on this topic. Ellaria murdered Martells to get vengeance for the murder of a Martell. Rickard murdered two Lannisters to get vengeance for the murder of a Karstark.

Collectively punishing Tion and Willem for their cousin's crimes (doubtful whether killing an enemy in battle could ever be counted as a crime anyway) is unjust, but is totally different to killing one's own family for no logical reason.

When I read I understood  that it was about ellaria wanting to kill myrcella because of oberyns death. As in kill the kin of your target for revenge. That is a similar situation to rickard karstark.

If you are talking about her killing the other martells it wasn t about revenge. It was because they wanted peace and she wanted war. She couldn t have her revenge while they were in power (this on the show). I would never have related killing kin for revenge as to what ellaria did... They were in her way and she killed them, nothing strange with that. What is ridiculous is that she and the sandsnakes become the leaders of dorne. That is simply absurd.

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5 minutes ago, teej6 said:

That plot is from the books. If you've read the books you'd know. Arnolf is Rickard's uncle and I assumed you were talking of Arnolf's betrayal coz he's the only Karstark who is betraying his kin. Even in the case of Rickard's storyline in the books, it's nothing like Ellaria and the Sand Snakes plot on the show. Rickard wanted revenge for the murder of his sons who were cut down by Jamie. Cat deprived him of his revenge by freeing Jamie and so he killed some other Lannisters instead. He didn't go kill his own kin for revenge. Big difference. Read the books before you point to it. The Karstarks eventually abandon Robb because he executes Arnold, still no killing of kin here.

 

4 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

You misunderstood the OP on this topic. Ellaria murdered Martells to get vengeance for the murder of a Martell. Rickard murdered two Lannisters to get vengeance for the murder of a Karstark.

Collectively punishing Tion and Willem for their cousin's crimes (doubtful whether killing an enemy in battle could ever be counted as a crime anyway) is unjust, but is totally different to killing one's own family for no logical reason.

When I read I understood  that it was about ellaria wanting to kill myrcella because of oberyns death. As in kill the kin of your target for revenge. That is a similar situation to rickard karstark.

If you are talking about her killing the other martells it wasn t about revenge. It was because they wanted peace and she wanted war. She couldn t have her revenge while they were in power (this on the show). I would never have related killing kin for revenge as to what ellaria did... They were in her way and she killed them, nothing strange with that. What is ridiculous is that she and the sandsnakes become the leaders of dorne. That is simply absurd.

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15 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Ellaria murdered Martells to get vengeance for the murder of a Martell.

Exactly. She's mad over the death of Oberyn in a trial by combat that Oberyn sought out himself, and eventually murders Oberyn's brother Doran and has her daughter murder Oberyn's son calling them weak.

Wow, genial revenge plan :rolleyes: Absolutely not. But hey we're not allowed to rant about the stupidity of the Dorne plot which even people who love the show think deplorable.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, divica said:

 

When I read I understood  that it was about ellaria wanting to kill myrcella because of oberyns death. As in kill the kin of your target for revenge. That is a similar situation to rickard karstark.

If you are talking about her killing the other martells it wasn t about revenge. It was because they wanted peace and she wanted war. She couldn t have her revenge while they were in power (this on the show). I would never have related killing kin for revenge as to what ellaria did... They were in her way and she killed them, nothing strange with that. What is ridiculous is that she and the sandsnakes become the leaders of dorne. That is simply absurd.

Ellaria never wanted to kill Myrcella in the books. Myrcella was injured due the actions of Gerold Dayne. Ellaria in the books does not seek revenge. In fact she is opposed to it and there's an entire speech by her on how revenge and bloodshed is wrong. As to show Ellaria, if you are implying that her killing Myrcella is similar to Rickard Karstark killing the Lannister cousins, perhaps. But that's not the problem with the show Dorne plot. The issue and complete illogical plot is Ellaria killing the beloved brother and nephew of her lover in whose cause she is seeking revenge. That makes absolutely no sense. 

Edited by teej6

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Ok, so I actually didn't hate all of S7 E1.    It was arguably in my opinion better than any episode from S6.  That doesn't make it good, but not awful, there were actually a couple of scenes I liked, mainly the Hounds scenes.

Things it does confirm for me in the books: (this is the main reason I'm still watching) Red Wedding II is definitely happening in Riverrun in the books. And the key Jaquen/Pates steals will be significant for getting some important information out of the Citadel, and Euron will definitely be trying to ally with Cersei the mad queen somehow

Now my complaints, with just 13 episodes to tell the rest of the story you'd think they can allocate screen time better. The Arya soldier scene was a complete waste of time (I'm sure next epiode we'll get a scene of Arya riding away with all of them dead, somethow). The Euron courting Cersei scene was just awful, this Euron is awful, he has none of charisma/magnestism of the Euron that's required to make him seem appealing to any one or dangerous enough to be a threat.  Sansa split personality is even worse this season, she in the same scene tells Jon he's "really good at (ruling)" and then tell him he's being stupid and will get himself killed liked Ned and Robb.  Make up your mind Sansa.

All in all, I'm thinking this season will be better than season 5-6, because 1: they had more time to work on the scripts than past seasons, that combined with fewer episodes means probably slightly less cringeworthy writing.  2: They're mostly past the getting the pieces in position for the final climax phase of the story (which was most of season 5 and 6) which is probably the part where they had the least instruction from GRRM, who probably told them how things are going to end but didn't give much detail on how the characters get into their positions for what happens at the end (mostly because he himself is still working that out).  And history has shown that these writers are much better when they have GRRM's framework to work from than if they tried to come up with stuff on their own. I have a feeling that season 7 and 8 they will be working more with GRRM's stuff than they did in season 5 and 6.

 

 

 

 

 

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It wasn't a bad episode, but it was far from a good one. I actually caught myself agreeing with show-Sansa much more than I did with show-Jon. That tension doesn't seem to hold any harm though, because it's pretty clear they'd never go against each other.

Euron's just bad. Bad acting, bad dialogue, bad everything.

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I must admit to liking this episode more than any episode in S6. The Hound stuff was really good and I can see a similar scene happening in the books 

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35 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I must admit to liking this episode more than any episode in S6. The Hound stuff was really good and I can see a similar scene happening in the books 

Lol, I had the same conclusion initially, but it's because of only one arc in the episode. The Hound's. Those scenes with the Brotherhood was the sole scene where you had some proper writing. I guess that S6 had not one scene like that (not even the S6 Hound scenes with bickering over how many someone gets to hang). The Hound's scenes were the only ones where it felt I was watching something "real", characters and humans. It actually felt like I watching a story.

With everything else you're pulled out of the scenes all the time to "ah the writers want me to think this, despite it being complete nonsense".

Arya scene with the Lannisters was nice, but I couldn't help think, "the writers want me to see that Arya realizes that Lannister soldiers are just people too."

Jon and Sansa scenes are plain awful. I just see two puppets who don't have a clue what they're supposed to be, but hey D&D tell us and them through dialogue: Jon's "a good king, but as stupid as Ned and Robb" and Sansa's "a Cersei wannabe". And I guess we'll just have to go with accepting and believing that, even when their plot, their past actions and characterization has been a complete trainwreck. It reminded me of Kid Theater of the Jimmy Fallon's Tonight show. But there it's cute.

KL scenes and the scene with LF this is my mind - "turn off brain, don't think... makes no sense... how the hell are these characters in that location, in that position? shit what were they saying again?.... don't think, just accept this nonsense for a moment." Sorry, it just doesn't work. No matter how much they all act as if it's completely normal, no matter how often they re-run S6 and S5 to remind me "this is what and how it happened. Let's just carry on, and take it as a starting point," my mind refuses to go along in the make-belief. The fact that those characters themselves iterate what situation they're in as if they can't believe it and just sit back and do nothing of substance (like taking a total abandoned Dragonstone) doesn't even make it worth watching. "What the hell is this plot?" It's like those scenes between Davos and Mel for all of S6 where you just have to pretend that Davos doesn't distrust Mel and doesn't ask about Shireen.

Sam in Oldtown. First I thought there was something wrong with the livestream, as if it was in some loop like a broken record with lag. Then I realized it was actually more of the same they showed, and this flashed through my mind, "Ah, the writers suddenly remembered the show-don't-tell-rule of writing," as well as "this plot is shite". And then came the scene with an older sam junior and dragonglass. Here were my thoughts at the time - "Ah, the writers remembered they had Stannis tell Sam about dragonglass at Dragonstone. Then they remembered they also forgot about it two seasons ago, and have Sam tell Jon before he went a-wall, and thought it would look smart if they have Sam rediscover it now and write to Jon about it." AND "D&D you may forget to write a scene of Sam or Stannis telling Jon, but surely Stannis and Sam would not have forgotten at the time! Having Sam be the hero now is just dumb!" It's kid theater all over again! They have no idea what to do with Sam in Oldtown, so Stannis could never have told the new LC about dragonglass at Dragonstone, nor can Davos apparently.. At least Jon has an excuse for not having been able to go to the abandoned Dragonstone yet - Hardhome, getting killed, being stupid at the BotB and stabilizing rule over the North.

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Posted (edited)

I watched it. It's mildly better than Season 6 was. The Arya scene that opened the episode was nonsensical, hilarious. Her scene with Sheeran is a massive waste of the time, and misappropriating the Symon song just had me rolling my eyes. Best parts of the episode here Sandor digging the grave and the white walker army (although was that giant meant to be Wun Wun? What's up with that?). The Hound's prophecy is just another example of their limp, spoonfeeding approach to set-up. I feel like they're still having a go at Stannis two seasons later. Sam forgot he told him about the masses of dragonglass because he didn't think it important? He, who killed an Other with dragonglass, didn't think it important? Oy... 

Show Euron is terrible and is feeling more like Show Ramsay now. I don't like Show Sansa either. Winterfell interpersonal conflicts are going to grate, I think, this season. 

Edited by AlpenglowMemories

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People, this is seriously approaching levels where even hate watching ceases to be fun. I watch it now only becouse I want to contrast it with future books. but in practice, it is only turning into contest of how this will not make sense this time.

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5 hours ago, AlpenglowMemories said:

I watched it. It's mildly better than Season 6 was. The Arya scene that opened the episode was nonsensical, hilarious. Her scene with Sheeran is a massive waste of the time, and misappropriating the Symon song just had me rolling my eyes. Best parts of the episode here Sandor digging the grave and the white walker army (although was that giant meant to be Wun Wun? What's up with that?). The Hound's prophecy is just another example of their limp, spoonfeeding approach to set-up. I feel like they're still having a go at Stannis two seasons later. Sam forgot he told him about the masses of dragonglass because he didn't think it important? He, who killed an Other with dragonglass, didn't think it important? Oy... 

Show Euron is terrible and is feeling more like Show Ramsay now. I don't like Show Sansa either. Winterfell interpersonal conflicts are going to grate, I think, this season. 

I must admit that Euron is entering Ramsay territory but he doesn't bother me mainly because Ramsay was messing with characters I had an emtional investment in (Sansa, Stannis, Rickon, Osha) while Euron is messing with Carol and Larry so I say go for it 

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wow....I'll have to watch it then

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Posted (edited)

I didn't like the episode, it showed how they just can't hold their own without GRRM. And the characters are so plot driven they don't seem real.

I did like the Hound scenes, because they did take time on him as a person. The reason so many liked these scenes is he seems real, and people connected.

Weiss: “One of the moments I love in episode 1 is Rory’s performance as the Hound where he sees the bodies of the farmer and the little girl he left to die, and sure enough they died in a very unpleasant way. He shows you changes he's undergone as a human being. 4 seasons ago he'd never think about burying the bodies of some people that he somehow felt responsible for."

Benioff: "He doesn't believe in religion, he doesn't like religion anyway, but he can't deny the facts of what he's seen. He's seen Thoros raise Beric from the dead. So for the Hound, he wants to know what does this god want? Part of him hates it, because he thinks these people are fanatics and dull and gullible, but at the same time he can't deny the truth of what he sees, and part of that truth now is seeing these visions in the flames."

(Of course, he didn't steal from the farmer in the books, he worked hard for his pay.)

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I must admit that Euron is entering Ramsay territory but he doesn't bother me mainly because Ramsay was messing with characters I had an emtional investment in (Sansa, Stannis, Rickon, Osha) while Euron is messing with Carol and Larry so I say go for it 

Carol and Larry are just so messed up.

Edited by Le Cygne

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6 hours ago, AlpenglowMemories said:

I don't like Show Sansa either. Winterfell interpersonal conflicts are going to grate, I think, this season. 

Yeah, same here. I'm just sorry to see Arya get even more messed up descending into the puddle of bad Winterhell filler.

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38 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

wow....I'll have to watch it then

Only the scenes with the Hound are good and Arya's scene with Ed Sheeran alright, even though it had an eyeroll moment. Even both those scenes contain some don't-ask-too-many-"how"-questions. At this point thinking "oh, how convenient, two shovels to dig a grave" and "euhm, since when has Sandor the gift to look into the flames" would be nitpicking. Those scenes are like the band playing on the deck of the sinking Titanic. Everything else are scenes of people inside the Titanic who reach above the rising water for one more minute of air. They wrecked the story, logistics and internal coherence so much there's just no putting it back together again.

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Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Only the scenes with the Hound are good and Arya's scene with Ed Sheeran alright, even though it had an eyeroll moment. Even both those scenes contain some don't-ask-too-many-"how"-questions. At this point thinking "oh, how convenient, two shovels to dig a grave" and "euhm, since when has Sandor the gift to look into the flames" would be nitpicking. Those scenes are like the band playing on the deck of the sinking Titanic. Everything else are scenes of people inside the Titanic who reach above the rising water for one more minute of air. They wrecked the story, logistics and internal coherence so much there's just no putting it back together again.

then it's like what we are accustomed to, lol (not that I expected something beautiful given that the first scene is Arya and Freys)

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Posted (edited)

It was okay, underwhelming.

-Pilau must have read some chapters because he was MUCH better this year than last year.  And so was his costume.

-Sandra Bolton is an awful and stupid person, Jon should put her under house arrest like Robb did his mother because she's a traitorous beast and still has terrible judgment.  And I'd say now that Sophie's acting has taken a dive or gone sideways, I thought she was pretty bad.

-LMAO they need to keep LF alive because otherwise the Knights of the Vale who have always hated him, and Royce who he threatened.....will leave.  Alrighty then.

-Why did we have a shit/soup 5 minute montage?  Was there a point to that?  God only knows how much time that nonsense took to edit.

-The Hound/BWB stuff was probably the best and I did like Arya's meeting with the Lannister soldiers.

-Dany return to Dragonstone was underwhelming also.  And "shall we begin" could not be more cliche of a line.  And those costumes...Dany, Missy, Tyrion are awful.  F. awful.

But, I did watch since due to spoilers felt it was fairly safe that no wolves or dragons would die....that is probably it for me.

Edited by Cas Stark

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12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

then it's like what we are accustomed to, lol (not that I expected something beautiful given that the first scene is Arya and Freys)

In some ways the writing's worse... it went from bad fanfic to kid theater.

With bad fanfic you have handwaving logistical problems away, pandering favourite characters, contrived drama you know will be solved deus-ex-machina, mary or villain sues, and characters being what they need to be for plot.

With kid theater you have a kid writing dialogue where the kid has characters blatantly tell you what the character is supposed to be (you're a bad spy and I'm the good spy) and if forgot something or made a mistake, the kid has the scene continue with characters naming the mistake and then correct it, instead of realizing he might just edit the mistake away or solve it some other way.

When an actual kid does that it's cute. When an adult writer who's supposed to be professional does that it's like "really? really???? REALLY!!!!!"

 

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