Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

If he was writing more epis next season it would be great since they are gonna be the ending of asoiaf! this season, i could agree bc it has been filler

And why would you want his ending being part of D&D's travesty? That is absolutely the worst scenario for ASOIAF. No ending is much preferable to that!

[Meera of Tarth]

15 minutes ago, StepStark said:

And why would you want his ending being part of D&D's travesty? That is absolutely the worst scenario fro ASOIAF. No ending is much preferable to that!

the ending is gonna be spoiled by the TV show next year or in 2019. That's why I'd prefer it to be the better written the better.

The last episodes will adjust to the asoiaf ending, even if the characters' journeys and the characters themselves are different now.

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

the ending is gonna be spoiled by the TV show next year or in 2019. That's why I'd prefer it to be the better written the better.

The last episodes will adjust to the asoiaf ending, even if the characters' journeys and the characters themselves are different now.

I'm not sure how can you be certain of it. They've diverged so far away from the books, one of these two things is going to happen: 1) they will write their own ending, or 2) they will forcibly shoehorn all the characters in the ending GRRM intended. Either way, it's going to be a disaster, and neither way will tell us much about GRRM's ending.

And generally, I don't know what would be the point of the show becoming better at this point. Let's just imagine that D&D wake up smart and talented tomorrow morning, and start working on season 8 as some truly great writers would. Would that make any of their stupidities in the previous seven seasons less stupid? Would that make the journey to the final season more reasonable? I don't think so.

What would be the point of a brilliant final season, after disastrous seven seasons? Let alone one or two brilliant episodes.

And by the way, GRRM's episodes didn't make any of the previous season better. Not only because they messed with his scripts each time, but also because he had to follow their outline for the season and their instructions. And all that in the end only helped this abomination of a show gain some undeserved reputation and fame.

So thanks, but no thanks. Who's afraid that the show is going to spoil the books can just not watch the show. It's not that hard, really. No show, not even GOT, is unavoidable. But I don't think there really is any danger of that kind, because the only things that we're certain that were spoilers are Shireen burning and Hold the door, and for both Benioff had to go in Inside the episode and actually say that it was something GRRM revealed to them, because otherwise people just wouldn't think it's GRRM's, because the show is so diverged at this point.

[Meera of Tarth]

24 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I'm not sure how can you be certain of it. They've diverged so far away from the books, one of these two things is going to happen: 1) they will write their own ending, or 2) they will forcibly shoehorn all the characters in the ending GRRM intended. Either way, it's going to be a disaster, and neither way will tell us much about GRRM's ending.

And generally, I don't know what would be the point of the show becoming better at this point. Let's just imagine that D&D wake up smart and talented tomorrow morning, and start working on season 8 as some truly great writers would. Would that make any of their stupidities in the previous seven seasons less stupid? Would that make the journey to the final season more reasonable? I don't think so.

What would be the point of a brilliant final season, after disastrous seven seasons? Let alone one or two brilliant episodes.

And by the way, GRRM's episodes didn't make any of the previous season better. Not only because they messed with his scripts each time, but also because he had to follow their outline for the season and their instructions. And all that in the end only helped this abomination of a show gain some undeserved reputation and fame.

So thanks, but no thanks. Who's afraid that the show is going to spoil the books can just not watch the show. It's not that hard, really. No show, not even GOT, is unavoidable. But I don't think there really is any danger of that kind, because the only things that we're certain that were spoilers are Shireen burning and Hold the door, and for both Benioff had to go in Inside the episode and actually say that it was something GRRM revealed to them, because otherwise people just wouldn't think it's GRRM's, because the show is so diverged at this point.

I think that they won't adapt everything, since it's impossible, but IMHO they are gonna tell us the main plots of the ending as it has been stated several times, probably with some changes regarding secndary characters, like Bronn, or whitewashing Tyrion's ending and enhancing Cersei's final scenes, but the rest, especially the fates of the characters, are gonna be the same.

I don't expect  it to become  much more better at this point, not after their success with the ratings when they have done the worst plot ever on TV this season with the wight hunt for Cersei. But considering that these was filler and their own fanfiction, the quality will increase (even if it still is bad) considering Martin's ending can not be worse than this season (by far).

I liked the first three seasons though, even the 4th one I consider it to be quite good from an Unsullied experience, that it was the one I had at that point; so I think that we'll get something in between bc when they want they are acceptable writers (as the first seasons were good bc they had book material and now they will have final good material, but that's my opinion of course).

 

[StepStark]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I liked the first three seasons though, even the 4th one I consider it to be quite good from an Unsullied experience, that it was the one I had at that point; so I think that we'll get something in between bc when they want they are acceptable writers (as the first seasons were good, but that's my opinion of course).

We can never agree on this. When you look only at their scenes in early seasons, they are mostly terrible, with very few exceptions. And not a single scene of their was brilliant, as people made some of them to be. Anyone who thinks that Robert/Cersei scene is brilliantly written, should immediately watch any scene between Tony and Carmela in The Sopranos, or any scene between Walt and Skyler in Breaking Bad.

And even scenes taken from the books were terrible. Burning of the seven statues on Dragonstone was terrible. The tournament in season 1 was terrible. Walder's introduction in season 1 was terrible, because only his creepiness was emphasized: my girlfriend at the time actually quit the show at that scene, because it was too disgusting and vulgar for her (not only that scene, but the entire season, but it was that scene that broke the camel's back). And so on.

They are far from acceptable writers. They are as terrible as writing gets. All the nonsense and stupidity in later seasons did't come from nowhere, it was there all the time, only people didn't pay too much attention because the show was still following books plot and it was exciting and refreshing because of it, but in reality D&D were always terrible writers and showrunners.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

We can never agree on this. When you look only at their scenes in early seasons, they are mostly terrible, with very few exceptions. And not a single scene of their was brilliant, as people made some of them to be. Anyone who thinks that Robert/Cersei scene is brilliantly written, should immediately watch any scene between Tony and Carmela in The Sopranos, or any scene between Walt and Skyler in Breaking Bad.

And even scenes taken from the books were terrible. Burning of the seven statues on Dragonstone was terrible. The tournament in season 1 was terrible. Walder's introduction in season 1 was terrible, because only his creepiness was emphasized: my girlfriend at the time actually quit the show at that scene, because it was too disgusting and vulgar for her (not only that scene, but the entire season, but it was that scene that broke the camel's back). And so on.

They are far from acceptable writers. They are as terrible as writing gets. All the nonsense and stupidity in later seasons did't come from nowhere, it was there all the time, only people didn't pay too much attention because the show was still following books plot and it was exciting and refreshing because of it, but in reality D&D were always terrible writers and showrunners.

oh, I am not saying they are good writers, but I think they didn't do a bad job in the first seasons adapting stuff (sometimes they did) and also from an unsullied perspective the product was satisfying enough to make me read the books after s4, which I think, I'd not have read since I didn't even know it was based on a series of books until a friend told me. Fortunately I did read them and it was an amazing experience. I suppose I'd have liked them less if I had been a reader, as I suppose that I would rate season 5 slightly better than I’d do now if I had not just finished reading the novels before it premiered. What a shock I had.

Of course, the  real merit  of liking the first seasons was on Martin's prose as we have seen from s5 on, because they dont even know how to organise their own fan-fiction. Although I think they have also become more lazy in their writing because when they were worse is when they started to win Emmys.  

But this is a rants thread,so I don't want to derail it with my experience with the seasons or the episodes I liked, as it is not the topic

As for the vulgarity, I couldn't agree more. I have always despised it, since the pilot. It has always been very uncomfortable for me to see any of the sex/rape/slave scenes or anything related the way they portray them. Normally I didn't even want to pay attention to them, or I just got accustomed to that. But this has been a constant since day 1 and it's horrible. They create misogynistic characters, fingers and asses, cock jokes and everything that one could imagine and they think it’s good.

[Ser Quork]

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

<>

As for the vulgarity, I couldn't agree more. I have always despised it, since the pilot. It has always been very uncomfortable for me to see any of the sex/rape/slave scenes or anything related the way they portray them. Normally I didn't even want to pay attention to them, or I just got accustomed to that. But this has been a constant since day 1 and it's horrible. They create misogynistic characters, fingers and asses, cock jokes and everything that one could imagine and they think it’s good.

This.

[StepStark]

8 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

oh, I am not saying they are good writers, but I think they didn't do a bad job in the first seasons adapting stuff (sometimes they did) and also from an unsullied perspective the product was satisfying enough to make me read the books after s4, which I think, I'd not have read since I didn't even know it was based on a series of books until a friend told me. Fortunately I did read them and it was an amazing experience. I suppose I'd have liked them less if I had been a reader, as I suppose that I would rate season 5 slightly better than I’d do now if I had not just finished reading the novels before it premiered. What a shock I had.

Literally every other writer of every other show that I watched more than 5 episodes would've done a better job than D&D. Every other writer writes better dialogue, better characters and better plot than D&D ever did on their own (even in early seasons). And that is why I'm sure that practically any other writer would've adapted ASOIAF better than they did, and by that I specifically mean in earlier seasons, because later seasons are simply not an adaptation any more by any standard.

So if that makes them "not bad" then okay, they aren't bad, I guess.

[blacktea79]

17 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

1. Why are the sex scenes on Game of Thrones so unsexy?

We'd like to believe the sex between Daenerys and Jon -- whose birth name was revealed to be Aegon Targaryen during a flashback -- was stiff and completely void of passion and chemistry because we're not actually supposed to be rooting for the nephew and aunt to be together. We'd also like to believe the series was finally taking a stand, albeit a halfhearted one, against incest. But this is hardly the first time the series has featured what amounts to a cold and passionless sex scene. Even when the series was using nudity and sex in more gratuitous fashion, viewers were struggling to find anything sensual about the scenes that transpired.

To make matters worse, now we're going to have to spend the next two years thinking about how stiff, awkward and silent that entire sex scene ultimately was. Sure, it showed off Kit Harington's butt, but was it really worth it? We're not so sure...

7. Were Arya and Sansa faking their tension all season?

Sansa turned the tables on Littlefinger when she coolly revealed it was he and not Arya who was standing trial for their sins in the finale. But the episode never definitively answered whether the Stark sisters were plotting this duplicitous turn against him the entire season or if was only recently they'd come to the decision. But to be honest, it also doesn't matter at this point, because the writing was sloppy no matter the answer. Either the writers stripped the Starks down to their worst traits for the sake of contrived narrative tension and then magically erased it or they crafted an exasperating storyline that gained nothing from keeping the audience in the dark. Whatever the case may be, at least the Starks appear to be on much better terms now.

http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-finale-recap-littlefinger-dead-jon-daenerys/

IMO, the sex scene was akward and stiff because it was such a forgone and rushed ending. Nothing in their relationship feels earned, to me. They never showed us any dialogue that may warm that scene. Jon(Ageon..eeek) goes kno-kno-knocking-on-heavens-door (and looking just like he has a bad case of diarrhoea), then he enters, skip to the horrid marriage flashback, and then skip to Kit's butt (which is, admittedly, the best thing of the season). Again, they seem not to know how to write any meaningful dialogue that actually leads to character development and interaction. The first meeting between Jon and Dany felt quite right to me, all the stuff about not bending the knee because her father killed his granpa and uncle, it was a good beginning, at least to me. Then they lost the footing, and went down the line of teen drama and angst, endlessly repeating the same dialogues, with a lot of looks, other people hinting at their supposed attraction, but never actually speaking of it between them. Hhhhhhggghh. Does not feel real, to me, it feels contrieved and cheap.

13 hours ago, StepStark said:

I'm not sure how can you be certain of it. They've diverged so far away from the books, one of these two things is going to happen: 1) they will write their own ending, or 2) they will forcibly shoehorn all the characters in the ending GRRM intended. Either way, it's going to be a disaster, and neither way will tell us much about GRRM's ending.

And generally, I don't know what would be the point of the show becoming better at this point. Let's just imagine that D&D wake up smart and talented tomorrow morning, and start working on season 8 as some truly great writers would. Would that make any of their stupidities in the previous seven seasons less stupid? Would that make the journey to the final season more reasonable? I don't think so.

What would be the point of a brilliant final season, after disastrous seven seasons? Let alone one or two brilliant episodes.

And by the way, GRRM's episodes didn't make any of the previous season better. Not only because they messed with his scripts each time, but also because he had to follow their outline for the season and their instructions. And all that in the end only helped this abomination of a show gain some undeserved reputation and fame.

So thanks, but no thanks. Who's afraid that the show is going to spoil the books can just not watch the show. It's not that hard, really. No show, not even GOT, is unavoidable. But I don't think there really is any danger of that kind, because the only things that we're certain that were spoilers are Shireen burning and Hold the door, and for both Benioff had to go in Inside the episode and actually say that it was something GRRM revealed to them, because otherwise people just wouldn't think it's GRRM's, because the show is so diverged at this point.

Completely agree. Nothing, IMO, is close to the books anymore. Maybe, just maybe, the main characters' ending will be the same (even if GRRM said that they could do whatever they want, they are not contractually obliged to respect his hints about the ending, and he has no power on them https://meduza.io/en/feature/2017/08/22/fantasy-needs-magic). But even so, the route that will bring them to that ending will be (already is) so different, so alien from the books, that it will truly be a completely different story. I am not worried. Even if, opening a newspaper in 2019, I should read spoilers about, say, Dany's death in the show, I trust that, if it happens in the books, it will have an undepinning logic, it will be a logical consequence of the story, not some contrieved scene just to make people scream or cry or produce endlessy annoying memes. We have witnessed the method, this year more than ever, but even before: they have a scene in mind, they write things that can make that scene happen. Anything that can make it happen. They don't build the story from the characters, eg, this character is craven, so he/she will not do something bold. No, they have chracters change personality depending on what they need to do in the setting. So in the end, to me the show will not be the conclusion of ASOIAF. It will be the conclusion of the show, stat. If GRRM will be able to finish, that will be the conclusion, if not, to me it will remain an unfinished story. There is just no comparison between the two, now (if there ever was...).

[Le Cygne]

4 hours ago, StepStark said:

Literally every other writer of every other show that I watched more than 5 episodes would've done a better job than D&D. Every other writer writes better dialogue, better characters and better plot than D&D ever did on their own (even in early seasons). And that is why I'm sure that practically any other writer would've adapted ASOIAF better than they did, and by that I specifically mean in earlier seasons, because later seasons are simply not an adaptation any more by any standard.

So if that makes them "not bad" then okay, they aren't bad, I guess.

Agree, the writing is just not there and never was. The story they very loosely based the show on is good, and that was the draw, but then they ran out and you can see the problems that were always there. I'm watching two other adaptations of book series I have read currently and I love them both, because the screenwriting is good.

The screenwriting is just bad here, and the inside look at their process was very revealing. Super unprofessional, and it shows the two showrunners using the characters as extensions of themselves, saying and doing things they themselves would say and do, so there is no true story anymore, and the very poorly thought out plots drive the characters.

(Also they like holding things back from the audience, to set things up for the big moment, the twist or the shock. But by the time it get to that point, it was either clear long ago, or it wasn't clear at all, they didn't bring the audience along for the ride. This isn't the way good stories are told.)

[StepStark]

28 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

The screenwriting is just bad here, and the inside look at their process was very revealing. Super unprofessional, and it shows the two showrunners using the characters as extensions of themselves, saying and doing things they themselves would say and do, so there is no true story anymore, and the very poorly thought out plots drive the characters.

(Also they like holding things back from the audience, to set things up for the big moment, the twist or the shock. But by the time it get to that point, it was either clear long ago, or it wasn't clear at all, they didn't bring the audience along for the ride. This isn't the way good stories are told.)

Exactly! That describes their MO perfectly, because practically everything they wrote can fit in either them writing themselves, or them fooling the audience. I get the sense hat they're not just extremely bad as writers, but that they're also extremely immature as individuals in real life. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're bad people, but they really lack the capacity of serious and rational judgment in most cases, as far as I can conclude from watching how their coworkers and associates talk about them.

And that's the only thing that shocks me still: what was GRRM thinking when he agreed to let them mess with his masterpiece? It really doesn't look as if it would take too much time to figure them out. They're a couple of phonies with no integrity whatsoever. I'm totally in shock that GRRM didn't see through them right away.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, blacktea79 said:

IMO, the sex scene was akward and stiff because it was such a forgone and rushed ending. Nothing in their relationship feels earned, to me. They never showed us any dialogue that may warm that scene. Jon(Ageon..eeek) goes kno-kno-knocking-on-heavens-door (and looking just like he has a bad case of diarrhoea), then he enters, skip to the horrid marriage flashback, and then skip to Kit's butt (which is, admittedly, the best thing of the season). Again, they seem not to know how to write any meaningful dialogue that actually leads to character development and interaction. The first meeting between Jon and Dany felt quite right to me, all the stuff about not bending the knee because her father killed his granpa and uncle, it was a good beginning, at least to me. Then they lost the footing, and went down the line of teen drama and angst, endlessly repeating the same dialogues, with a lot of looks, other people hinting at their supposed attraction, but never actually speaking of it between them. Hhhhhhggghh. Does not feel real, to me, it feels contrieved and cheap.

They needed people to point out that they were attracted to each other because otherwise we would not have guessed it.

It's the worst romance I've ever seen on a TV show.

[Le Cygne]

I don't think the show even can be the end of the book series anymore, too much is different.

[Liver and Onions]

4 hours ago, StepStark said:

And that's the only thing that shocks me still: what was GRRM thinking when he agreed to let them mess with his masterpiece? It really doesn't look as if it would take too much time to figure them out. They're a couple of phonies with no integrity whatsoever. I'm totally in shock that GRRM didn't see through them right away.

I admit, way back when the HBO adaptation was a rumor and Rome was finishing up, I thought about how cool it would be to see ASOIAF done in a similar way (fancy DVD sets and everything!) I obviously can't speak for GRRM, but most authors probably would want to see their work adapted- yes, it's money, but also exposure, more fans, more book sales... And he probably knew things would change. It's possible when the show is done and people can speak their minds that we'll hear more about why it went off the rails- while there were problems in the first few seasons, the later ones seem to be like blind squirrels finding the occasional nut. The show runners might have seemed capable of handling a decent adaptation, but when it came to making changes, they are floating away sans paddle. 

[Meera of Tarth]

 

[Starkistbeforethedawn]

On 8/29/2017 at 7:01 PM, Lollygag said:

Gamespot Universe has an interesting idea on Tyrion. He made a deal with Cersei for their child to be Dany's heir. On the surface, Tyrion can argue that Cersei's child as Dany's heir could be healing if she can never have her own heirs, so no harm, no foul. But Tyrion hears Jon and Dany and begins to think about the deal he's made if Dany should conceive.

Also creates an interesting dynamic where Jaime the father leaves to join Jon/Dany, and Tyrion steps in to be the father-figure against Jon/Dany (should she conceive).

 

Doesn't all of that fall apart the moment Cersei's armies fail to go North?

[The Bard of Banefort]

While on the topic of well-written shows, I have not yet seen The Wire or Breaking Bad, but I cannot recommend Six Feet Under enough. It's the kind of show that stays with you long after you finish watching it. I watched it for the first time ten years after the show concluded, and it still had a profound effect on me. 

[StepStark]

5 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

I admit, way back when the HBO adaptation was a rumor and Rome was finishing up, I thought about how cool it would be to see ASOIAF done in a similar way (fancy DVD sets and everything!) I obviously can't speak for GRRM, but most authors probably would want to see their work adapted- yes, it's money, but also exposure, more fans, more book sales... And he probably knew things would change. It's possible when the show is done and people can speak their minds that we'll hear more about why it went off the rails- while there were problems in the first few seasons, the later ones seem to be like blind squirrels finding the occasional nut. The show runners might have seemed capable of handling a decent adaptation, but when it came to making changes, they are floating away sans paddle. 

When did they seem capable of handling a decent adaptation? Ahead of the first season, when they kept repeating that the show is "about power"? As far as I can remember, that was all they talked about: power, power, power... Until season two came, and they called it "the season of romance". The show about power and a season of romance? LOL! Is that a decent adaptation of ASOIAF?

I'll say it again, literally every other writer in the business would make a better show out of ASOIAF than D&D did. Literally any other writer would make a better season one than they did. I don't think any other writer would write something as stupid as Cersei talking to Cat about her "first boy" who was a "black haired beauty" but died fighting a fever after which he was buried in "a crypt" Cersei "never visited, never". Six years passed, and I still have no idea what was that about. And the same for Jaime mocking Jon for taking "vows for life". And also for the scene in which Cat finds a blond hair and concludes that Bran didn't fall but was pushed by Lannisters.

All those examples are from the second episode, by the way. All invented by D&D and all as stupid as it gets.

Of course it wasn't as monumentally ridiculous as the wight hunt, because back then D&D were just writing individual scenes, while now they're writing entire plots. But if writers are capable of writing such stupid scenes early on, nobody should be surprised when they start writing stupid plots later on.

Everything D&D did right, any other writer would've done as good or even better (for example, other writers probably wouldn't be so stupid to remove Ned's "That's the only time a man can be brave" line). Everything D&D did wrong is another level of wrong, something that other showrunners in the business would never embarrass themselves with. So I really don't understand when did D&D ever deserve any acclaim and when did they show anything even resembling competence.

Of course I understand GRRM's which to see ASOIAF adapted. I just don't understand why did he pick D&D, when literally any other pick would've been better, and probably nobody would refuse such a story. 

[Rhodan]

4 hours ago, StepStark said:

Of course I understand GRRM's which to see ASOIAF adapted. I just don't understand why did he pick D&D, when literally any other pick would've been better, and probably nobody would refuse such a story. 

Well, I don´t know Martin personally, but he might be pretty bad judge of character and skill when it comes to people who want do him a favour. If only test he gave them, was the identity Jon Snow´s mother as the anecdote goes, then it doesn´t sound he was critically examining their writing exectly. And of course, this was their initiative, becouse unfortunaly, there wasn´t much other ASOIAF fans among screenwriters. If, for example Straczynski (alhough that might not be the best example either) get the idea, things might have been so much different....

Obviously, despite what he proclaims on the public, he ran from the GOT´s writing tem before season 5 and I think real reasons are quite obvious.      

[StepStark]

42 minutes ago, Rhodan said:

And of course, this was their initiative, becouse unfortunaly, there wasn´t much other ASOIAF fans among screenwriters.

Actually no, it wasn't their initiative. It all started when GRRM's agent sent the books to Benioff. Before that, D&D didn't even know about ASOIAF.