Fate of House Baratheon

[ShimShim]

I was thinking about the future fate of house Baratheon. Lets say that what I think is most likely happens, Stannis dies, leaving Shereen. She is a girl, and her children won't carry the Baratheon family name. Will this mean the end of the Baratheon male line? I think not. Robert has one recognized bastard, Edric Storm. I think that in order to stabilize the Storm Lands, whoever sits on the Iron Throne in the future will legitimize him. Will he also end up maybe marrying Shereen? Seems like it might be a smart decision, marrying your true born Baratheon cousin, so that no one contests your claim. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

Shireen have better claim to Stormlands than Edric. She is legitimate daughter and heir of current lord baratheon. And I doubt that Aegon VI or Dany would legitimize him. His claim would be dangerous to them. He is usurper's son after all. 

Anyway Grrm will probably kill off both Stannis and Shireen, so Edric probably will end up ruling stormlands in the end.

 

[Scorpion92]

The only person with Baratheon blood left standing by the end of the story will be Ser Gendry 'the Bull', who I think will be indifferent to Baratheon name and actually take Stark name and pass it to his children with Arya (if they hook up by the end). 

And since the new Westerosi realm after Long Night will have completely new political and social system, I do not think there will be any need for a Baratheon at the end, thus, I believe the house will go extinct, just like many other great houses for one reason or another. And frankly, it will not matter, because bloodlines and feudalism are bound to be replaced by something new in my opinion.

I foresee only Starks and Lannisters surviving (and ruling together through Tyrion and Sansa) and carrying on the names (through Jaime's kids by Brienne, and Jon's son by Dany and Arya's children with Gendry). Every other great house will die out eventually.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

36 minutes ago, ShimShim said:

I was thinking about the future fate of house Baratheon. Lets say that what I think is most likely happens, Stannis dies, leaving Shereen. She is a girl, and her children won't carry the Baratheon family name. Will this mean the end of the Baratheon male line? I think not. Robert has one recognized bastard, Edric Storm. I think that in order to stabilize the Storm Lands, whoever sits on the Iron Throne in the future will legitimize him. Will he also end up maybe marrying Shereen? Seems like it might be a smart decision, marrying your true born Baratheon cousin, so that no one contests your claim. 

Considering Shireen might also not survive the books, I'd say the Baratheon name will, sadly, die out. No one has anything to gain from legitimising Edric, or any of Robert's bastards. He would, as Robert's heir, be a threat to the throne, as Paxter Redwyne also mentioned.

You are forgetting Mya Stone BTW. Ned mentions visiting her with Robert when she was a baby and her Stone surname indicates that she's been recognized by Robert (something Gendry, who does not have a surname, clearly isn't). People are at least aware she's Robert's daughter. However, she herself does not seem to know, so maybe she's not been recognized.

[ShimShim]

I think once Robert wanted to bring Mya to kings landing, but Cersei gave a subtle hint she would do harm to the girl if he brought her. Robert got mad, hit her, but never brought it up again.

[Paxter Redwyne]

Just now, ShimShim said:

I think once Robert wanted to bring Mya to kings landing, but Cersei have a subtle hint she would do harm to the girl if he brought her. Robert got mad, hit her, but never brought it up again.

She actually suggested him that she will murder her if he would brought her to King's Landing. What a lovely marriage.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm thinking Edric Storm might claim his father's throne, possibly foreshadowed by Trystane Truefyre. 

[Gertrude]

As has been said, if Dany ends up sitting the throne, Baratheon is done. Doesn't matter who lives, I doubt she will tolerate it. The lands and titles go to someone else of her choosing. Maybe she's not so vindictive, but that's a hard grudge she's holding. She may be persuaded to forgive the usurper's dogs, but not the usurper himself (in the form of his family name).

If Stannis dies and Shireen does inherit without interference from the crown, who says she can't marry and pass on her name to her children? In the case of a female heir, she is not marrying into her husband's family, he is marrying into hers. I feel like we've got examples from the book, but I can't call them up now. Maybe Lady Hornwood?

If Stannis and Shireen both die, I think Edric is the next logical choice, He is is an acknowledged bastard and nobly born. Legitimize him and call it done.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

30 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

If Stannis dies and Shireen does inherit without interference from the crown, who says she can't marry and pass on her name to her children? In the case of a female heir, she is not marrying into her husband's family, he is marrying into hers. I feel like we've got examples from the book, but I can't call them up now. Maybe Lady Hornwood?

Lady Hornwood was originally a Manderly. Maybe you're thinking of Lady Waynwood, her sons are called Waynwood as well. There's also the Stokeworths and the Mormonts, and of course several Dornish houses (if they count).

[Paxter Redwyne]

57 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I'm thinking Edric Storm might claim his father's throne, possibly foreshadowed by Trystane Truefyre. 

Trystane Truefyre ended up executed. Also we don't know if he was actually bastard of king Viserys.

30 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I feel like we've got examples from the book, but I can't call them up now. Maybe Lady Hornwood?

Lady Hornwood was only widow after deceased lord hornwood. She was originally from house manderly. 

We however have Anya Waynwood, Arwyn Oakheart, Agnes Blackwood, Lyessa Flint and Shyra Errol.

 

[Adam Yozza]

8 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Trystane Truefyre ended up executed. Also we don't know if he was actually bastard of king Viserys.

Lady Hornwood was only widow after deceased lord hornwood. She was originally from house manderly. 

We however have Anya Waynwood, Arwyn Oakheart, Agnes Blackwood, Lyessa Flint and Shyra Errol.

 

Except Aegon II didn't execute Gaemon Palehair and his mother for the same crime Trystane committed. This, combined with the fact that Trys was knighted before his death, sort of implies that Trys is actually Viserys' bastard.

[Daena the Defiant]

4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

If Stannis dies and Shireen does inherit without interference from the crown, who says she can't marry and pass on her name to her children? In the case of a female heir, she is not marrying into her husband's family, he is marrying into hers. I feel like we've got examples from the book, but I can't call them up now. Maybe Lady Hornwood?

 

The best canonical example of the house name being handed down via female house seats is House Stokeworth which went from Lady Stokeworth to married daughter No. 1 (who was married to a Byrch) to married daughter No. 2.

Also, it's pretty clear that Ladies Waynwood and Oakheart are the regnant ladies and not dowagers, since they both have grown sons above the age of majority, yet both still hold the house in the family name. If they were widows of the old lord, upon their sons becoming adults, they would have to demur to the proper heirs. 

[PCK]

I think that the house being called one founded by bastards is foreshadowing of the eventual Lord of Storms End and the future of House Baratheon.

[Nyrhex]

2 hours ago, Daena the Defiant said:

The best canonical example of the house name being handed down via female house seats is House Stokeworth which went from Lady Stokeworth to married daughter No. 1 (who was married to a Byrch) to married daughter No. 2.

Also, it's pretty clear that Ladies Waynwood and Oakheart are the regnant ladies and not dowagers, since they both have grown sons above the age of majority, yet both still hold the house in the family name. If they were widows of the old lord, upon their sons becoming adults, they would have to demur to the proper heirs. 

Not the case with Lady Dustin. Aside of Wiliam Dustin, who died back in the Tower of Joy, we have no Dustins mentioned in the books. Barbrey was born a Rysewll, and yet she still controls house Dustin, it's seat and lands. Which seems strange, considering that if any Dustin was still alive they had 15 years to challenge Barbrey's hold on thier house. So either the house is all dead, and Barbrey inherited because all the great families have everyone else's blood, or she managed to stay in power despite other Dustins.

Donella Hornwood was born a Manderly, and yet she is still in control of house Hornwood, and Ramsay lays claim to the house and it's lands by marrying her and killing her in order to inherit his wife. This while the lord Halys Hornwood had left a sister that by law should have inherited him, and one of her sons could have taken the Hornwood name easily enough as Harry the Heir is expected to do if he is to inherit house Arryn as his grandmother was an Arryn of the main line.

It is entirely plausible that both Anya Waynwood and Arwyn Oakheart were born into other families but still manage to hold on to thier husbands' titles for the duration of thier life due to... for lack of a better word, inertia. No one is really interested in fighting, either a political battle or on the battlefield (or both), so they just let them rule until things work themselves out later naturally.

 

 

Personally I don't see how anyone aside of Stannis has a single good reason to place one of Robert's bastards in Storm's End.

Also, my money is on the dark horse - Gendry. I don't know how yet, but I have a suspicion that Sansa is the younger, more beautiful queen from Cersei's prophecy, and that she and Gendry end up together (thus linking houses Stark and Baratheon as was the plan back in AGOT). Jaime's offhand remark that she would be better off marrying a blacksmith is the most obvious forshadowing if it happens, but I think that Gendry's story and Sansa's are going to meet in the next book because they have too many links not to.

Shireen is likely going to be burned by Mel to bring back Jon Snow in one of the first chapters of the next book. Edric was only there for Stannis' dilemma in ASOS, and even combined Mya Stone the two don't have as much story and focus as Gendry. 

[Gertrude]

33 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

Personally I don't see how anyone aside of Stannis has a single good reason to place one of Robert's bastards in Storm's End.

If Shireen is not available, I don't see why not. He seems to be a likeable lad and Cortnay Penrose fought for him and Storm's End against Stannis. I know that is very little to go on, but if Edric is popular at Storm's End, then that is as good a reason as any to ensure a peaceful transition. Again, that is mainly if Dany doesn't want to just end the House for good.

[Sensenmenn]

Gendry is probably not going to want the baratheon name so he will probably take the name durandon instead. 

 

[Nyrhex]

14 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

If Shireen is not available, I don't see why not. He seems to be a likeable lad and Cortnay Penrose fought for him and Storm's End against Stannis. I know that is very little to go on, but if Edric is popular at Storm's End, then that is as good a reason as any to ensure a peaceful transition. Again, that is mainly if Dany doesn't want to just end the House for good.

Penrose was a coward who knew that for supporting Renly he is going to lose his job and for some reason wanted to go out with a bang. It is questionable if he even inforemd the garrison of Stannis' terms considering that they handed over the castle and Edric the instant he died. 

Edric was a good lad, and Stannis gives us that he charms everyone he meets. But that's about it. He lives in delusion that Robert gave a shit about him and Stannis did not have the heart to tell him otherwise.

Now as far as the region is concerned - the Stormlands are divided and invaded. The Dornish siding with Aegon is going to be an issue with many Stormlords and Reachlords due to the bad blood, especially among the Marcher lords. There is an army camped outside Storm's End and a larger army marching south from the capital. If you managed to survive both of those you don't really have a dire need of the Stormlands, you have already defeated the largest single host in the land (Mace should have ~30,000 men, closer to ~40,000 if Tarly's host is combined in the capital and marches south as well, and the token force left in the siege likely has a few thousands more). The Tyrells and the Lannisters can work up that number again, but not with the threats that are going to hit them in the form of the Ironborn, a rebellion in the Riverlands, maybe even the Vale and a religious rising led by the High Sparrow in the capital. 

So you don't need the Stormlands. But on the other hand you need to have a dire need of them on your side if you are planning on placing anyone with a claim from Robert Baratheon. Dany, fAegon, Jon, Tommen or Euron have no reason to gift a region and it's incomes and soldiers to anyone with a claim on the Iron Throne. Trystane Truefyre took over the capital based on a hedge knight's say so and a popular uprising. Gifting the son of Robert Baratheon the Stormlands is just begging for another war.

[Curled Finger]

I have to hand it to you @ShimShim, I expected the usual fluff here, but you've instigated a really good discussion.   I think we all wonder which houses will end in this brutal tale.   Certainly, House Baratheon's chances for survival are looking very slim in Stannis' line.  To the discussion regarding house names surviving in the female line, Cersei herself is referred to as Cersei of House Lannister when the High Sparrow announces her walk of shame.   Joffrey's coat of arms contains both Baratheon and Lannister emblems equally.   For all that's worth. 

Remember how House Baratheon was established?   Trusty Orys, rumored bastard brother of Aegon, was given Storm's End for his many loyal deeds during the conquest.   In a way the Baratheons are related to Dany from the get go.  There would be a symmetry to Dany granting Edric or Gendry or Mya or Belle Storm's End in the same fashion as Aegon the Conqueror.   Aegon didn't legitimize Orys as far as we know, but who needs legitimization when you get to be a great lord of an entire kingdom?   

[velo-knight]

House Baratheon is on it's last legs. Stannis most likely won't survive to the end, and neither will his line. We already have prophecies suggesting the "Baratheons" in the Lannister line won't survive. As for Robert's bastards: Gendry is a minor character without any noble education; Mya Stone is both unaware and female; and who would have any reason to legitimize Edric Storm? Dany and YG and Jon can't - he's inherently a threat to them, even if they were the closest of friends, because his children would inherit not only any title to Storm's End but the claim on the Iron Throne that a legitimized Edric - and his children - have as the acknowledged, noble bastard of a crowned monarch. The best they could do for him is allow him to form a new house, potentially with the Baratheon name, and give that house some extremely minor lands and titles. The Lannister faction can't - it's another uncomfortable reminder of the rumors surrounding the family.

[Rob Storm]

To echo history: Aegon VI will win the crown and give Storm's End to his bastard half-brother Jon Snow..

But I have a vague theory that houses that persisted and came to be after the first Long Night will persist again.  The Golden Age of heroes was led by Stark, Lannister, Durrandon and Gardener descendants.  Dayne and Hightower are mysteries and I think it would be weird for GRRM to make them majorly important.  It's hard to pick and choose which will be most significant of the Durrandon/Garderner line but I guess Shireen is closest with some of both lineages.  Also Targaryen, if you subscribe to the idea that Valyrians overcame the original LN in essos they should be included.  

I love the Baratheon bastards(if you couldn't tell) but the only one who really knows who he is is Edric, I guess Belle thinks she is and it is probably true.  Moral of the story, I think so many houses and so many people will die by the end of this that preserving a 300 year old house will be the least of people's worries.  Once all hope is lost to the Baratheons, they will be as extinguishable as the Hoare's or the Mudds or any other petty king... point being, they ruled the country for 15 years after 10,000 years of other Kings.  I love them as a house in this story, but they aren't important to the big scheme.