If Tyrion and Sansa had a kid , would Roose Bolton step down?

[Greywater-Watch]

15 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Well, to be devil's advocate how do you know Sansa was disinherited?  We just assume she was.  Maybe there is a clause in there that says if Tyrion's marriage to Sasa is annulled tthen she will be recognised in the line of succession.

The point of the Will is to give Robb an heir who will temporarily be able to assume a position of leadership until such time as Robb's children by Jeyne come of age.  Jon fits the bill, neither Sansa, known captive and wife of Tyrion Lannister, nor Arya, a child missing and believed to be dead for over a year, do.

I am glad that you stress that the disinheritance of Sansa is a pure assumption. I had the impression that many and more already take this as a fact, despite:

• that we do not know what was written in Robb's will
• if it will ever be "published" and thus become effective
• that there are many other thinkable solutions Robb may have chosen to ensure that the rule of the North remains in safe hands in case he died.

In my view you do not even have to assume the role as devil's advocate to make this point.

[Greywater-Watch]

15 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Actually, no, inheritance laws would put Sansa's son ahead of Sansa' s younger sibilng, Arya.

Are you sure about this? If I remember the discussion Jon Snow had with Alys Karstark about the Karstark succession line, I have some doubts. In my opinion: IF Sansa was heir to Winterfell and she had a son, he would be prior to Arya in the succession line.

[LordImp]

2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Are you sure about this? If I remember the discussion Jon Snow had with Alys Karstark about the Karstark succession line, I have some doubts. In my opinion: IF Sansa was heir to Winterfell and she had a son, he would be prior to Arya in the succession line.

Yes. Sansas son would come before Arya . Just like the Stark kids will inheritate Riverrun before Lysa. 

[UnFit Finlay]

On 25/11/2016 at 2:29 AM, the trees have eyes said:

Looking at it that way, it's a reasonable premise for both men to make.  But factor in that Roose betrayed the Northmen and murdered a lot of them and that he does not in fact have a Stark to legitimise his take over of power while Tywin will then Tywin's looks the better bet.  Particularly as he expects to have the full authority of the throne and the power of the other 6 kingdoms behind him down the road while the North will be all alone.

Oh, I'd agree. Especially when you factor in just how miserable life under Bolton rule will be. He and Ramsay were monsters WHILE there was a Stark in Winterfell. God only knows what they'd be like if left to rule unchallenged.

That said, Roose would see it differently from me. He'd have plenty of time to get the North under total control and prepare for war. Moat Cailin is impassable as a near-ruin. Imagine how formidable it'd be with 15 + years to restore it? He was also present at Robb's crowning when the Northern Lords refused to back Stannis or Renly, based on their lack of knowledge of the North.

It's also worth noting that Roose didn't really have a better option. Tywin sent Robett Glover North. If Robb made it back and spoke to him then Roose's treason would be exposed. Throw in Robb finding out about Lady Hornwood and House Bolton would finally cease to be. Survival and rule of the North, even when you know betrayal is coming, is still better than almost certain extinction.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 11/18/2016 at 9:34 PM, John Doe said:

Hell no. Bolton would probably say something like, it wasn't a northern marriage, or that she was obviously forced, or that an imp isn't able to produce a child, making it illegitimate, or grasp any straw to say the child isn't the rightful heir. The northeners would likely back Bolton, given the choice between a fellow northener and a hated Lannister. 

I don't doubt he would try but even in their medieval-like world and without DNI this would still be difficult to prove. The onus of proof would lie on the guy who says the child of a "married couple" is illegitimate not the other way round.  However, yes, unconsummated at first (although who is to say they didn't do it - other than us book-readers- lol - and the couple could be lying lol, to keep their options open mayhaps...., Roose would sing this song but clearly Sansa would no longer be a virgin by this stage lol (whether it was Tyrion or Moon Boy - so pretty hard to prove that one) so it would be down really to who is more powerful.  Also, even in their time I am sure they have documented evidence to the effect that a dwarf is infertile; not any more than anyone else; higher genetic risk of passing the gene on, of course, I believe it's 50/50 but I might have this wrong... but infertile no more than anyone else on average.  There is another thread on this but my belief is that Tyrion hasn't got bastards right, left and centre because he goes to high end prostitutes who drink the moon tea.  Okay Robert could afford the best too but my feeling is that Robert didn't pay the matter so much mind.  Tyrion is a well-read guy and I think he fears this and hence he ensures she does drink it.  Now, in a marriage he would have to risk it but not just for pleasure when demanding contraception would benefit both parties in other scenerios...

The whole story with Ramsay and say Lady Hornwood and "fake Arya" surely has leaked among servants and nobles alike.  I know I am not supposed to quote anything from the show here but the end game will be at least very similar and it is clear from the released chapters of TWOW that Tyrion and Danny might take their time but they will become allies.  Tyrion will end up a much bigger fish, although my theory is that Roose will die much sooner (assuming they both do).  Plus, as I said earlier on, were I a Winterfell banner lady rather the devil incarnate that Ramsay and his "hunts."  I think both Tywin and Roose made huge mistakes despite both of them being pretty politically savvy in recognising than an heir is key but being a bit desperate in the way they went about it.  Roose legitimised Ramsay possibly with a view of him marrying "the key to the north" and Tywin was hoping to send Tyrion to the wall for a crime I am sure he doubted he had committed to blackmail Jaime into giving him "the right heir" (especially after Tyrion stubbornness to consumate lol) and we all know how that ended lol  The north hate Lannisters for sure, but if they are rational about it, no every Lannister has been as ruthless as Tywin or blood- thirsty as Cersei.  Tommen is young and weak but he is yet to do anything remotely evil, for instance...  Not all will see that not everyone in a family is the same and Tyrion has done questionable stuff, and I am sure Sansa will too in her own right but the Tyrion/Sansa combo (if it happens) well she is learning... and he has always been fairly good at ruling and is a phenomenal speaker and has a great capability for persuasion. That, even if you hate the idea of a Stark and a Lannister or any drop of Lannister blood in your capacity of northern Lord is got to tilt the scales in their favour over Ramsay for sure.  Ramsay is a northerner and might be a reasonable military commander but his antics involve advertised sadistic tendencies.  Tyrion killed his father and lover, they might even think they kill Joffrey but I guess little love lost there from the northern Lords.  Okay, they would be cautious of him... and her if she stays with him and bears him a child... they might disrespect him (which I think Sansa would put a curt stop to if they do indeed get together even in a political marriage) but to me, if I were a northern Lord/Lady, well they will demonstrate they can be pragmatic.  I would even welcome Tywin as a Lord liege if it meant getting rid of Ramsay who clearly ain't a full shilling lol  I am inclined to think that they would be heavily opposed (Sansa + Tyrion + baby) but possibly by one very strong northern house with other houses support in coalition against Stark succession under these circumstances.  Roose cannot keep WF for long with Ramsay at least.  Okay, some might argue that Tyrion isn't exactly a full shilling right now either but I think this is more akin to PTSD or something of that ilk and like Arya and Theon is on a clear arc and he is recovering... now there is no arc for Ramsay as far as I can see in the story.  I love the overall characterisation in the books but to me both Ramsay and Joffrey are just not that 3-dimensional but psychopaths exists and this is a big difference.  I also think that one of the points of the whole series is to show that sometimes you have to "sleep with the enemy" to achieve a common, more important goal, like WW, and I believe this will pan out like this.  Not necessarily Tyrion + Sansa + baby; say Gendry + Arya + baby but the long held house prejudices will have to calm down or it all goes to hell, so willingly or unwillingly the houses will unite, or for a time unite...My take on this hypothetical scenario is that if Ramsay doesn't manage to feed Lannstark babe to the dogs, that babe is the best option the northern Lords currently have - okay they could be others plot wise of course like a son of Jon's given Robb's will but the answer would be the same IMHO - Kid of Arya with a bastard, say; kid of Jon... anyone and I think there is an important issue but unsure what it is yet re "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" pretty sure has something to do with WW though... They would, by now, be like "old wife tales" but some Northerners will still believe them "me thinks..."

Sorry, just answering the question but now realising that this very long post might sound as if I am clearly antagonising you which I don't mean to do.  I know you are speaking for Roose and not yourself necessarily but just to show Roose's arguments would be weak in my humble opinion; yes, the marriage was forced on both parties, on her more than him though, but if they show up, after a long separation there with a kid clearly they are now "willing" in this situation.  Roose could try to argue that Sansa is being coerced into pretending this but, say, if Cersei & Co have been defeated, it would be hard to believe... If Cersei and her cronies haven't then both parents are fugitives and the only way this situation could pan out once again is by way of conquest.

 

[Morgana Lannister]

15 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I am glad that you stress that the disinheritance of Sansa is a pure assumption. I had the impression that many and more already take this as a fact, despite:

• that we do not know what was written in Robb's will
• if it will ever be "published" and thus become effective
• that there are many other thinkable solutions Robb may have chosen to ensure that the rule of the North remains in safe hands in case he died.

In my view you do not even have to assume the role as devil's advocate to make this point.

I agree; the specific details have not been given out; there is also a possibility that Jon, in turn, might as now heir bestow this right on someone else, even Sansa or even Sansa + Tyrion = baby; last time he saw Tyrion he was in good terms with him after all... or on Bran, who is the logical (going by a patriarchal line successor)... Doubt Bran would take it but anything is possible and yes, I agree, we only know the bare bons about that Will.  Maybe there is all there is to it, maybe not but I keep insisting whoever gets the top positions will do with by way of conquest or great service to humanity or whatever it ends up being called.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 11/20/2016 at 3:26 AM, John Doe said:

But my point is that the northeners would hate the Lannisters too, for the Red Wedding as well as Neds beheading and the war before. Add to that Tyrion's most famous for being a hideous dwarf as well as being a southener. I don't think Big Bucket Wull would defend a Lannister with the same ferocity as a Stark, and if the Boltons have a Stark daughter as well I doubt the majority of the northern lords would side with a Lannister over a Bolton.

Trouble with this is that there are many, many people who could reveal Jeyne's true identity; foremost Sansa of course but anyone who is a member or the Stark family, served them or visited would serve for this purpose too...  Okay, the servants are too afraid to speak up, Sansa will not be and certainly not the real Arya, say!

[Morgana Lannister]

On 11/20/2016 at 3:11 PM, the trees have eyes said:

But Bolton does not have a Stark daughter or heir as Sansa shoots that one down.

And it's not Tyrion they are fighting for (remember the hunting accidnet I suggested?), it's Ned's grandson.

I think you are underestimating how much the Northern Lords know about Roose's treachery and massively underestimating their appetite for revenge.  Surely Manderly's performance in ADWD or Big Bucket Wull's quote is clear enough here. If they really don't know and somehow not a single witness will emerge to say what really happened at the Sack of Winterfell (hello Theon, hello Wex to name two) or at the Red Wedding (hello GreatJon Umber, Edmure Tully and any other hostages) all Tyrion has to do is open his mouth.

I mean why do the Northern Lords think Bolton was appointed Warden of the North?  What did he do to earn this and how did he and his men alone survive the disaster of the Red Wedding intact?  Not to mention he married into the Freys.  The Northerners know he betrayed them, they just don't know the specifics....yet.

Roose is toast.  Tywin's plan for Tyrin supplanting him was a good one and in the event it fails due to Tyrion and Sansa not any Northern loyalty to Roose Bolton.

Problem here, however, despite my complete agreement with you and with the justice in it is that the would question how Tyrion had that information if not involved in the plot himself.  I think some kind of scenario like this, even prior to any child, will come to pass in the books and Tyrion is good at legal and political arguments but this one is not looking good for him.  Him and Sansa really really would have to deliver some very convincing speech although we readers know he was innocent and unaware lol

[devilish]

The king first instinct would be to appoint him warden of the North. The boy is his cousin and he would have lived in CR or KL for most of his life. By that time he would be brainwashed in thinking that the Stark branch were wrong in rebelling and he will be grateful to the king for appointing him Warden of the North despite everything that happened.

From a Lannister perspective, there are two things that they have to be taking in account. 

A-    Whether or not the North will accept him. Roose won’t go down without a fight and the last thing a king would want is to fight in a region which is almost impossible to fight in. He should avoid instigating a rebellion unless he’s 100% sure that Tyrion Stark has enough backing from the North to win it.
B-    Tyrion JNR will be raised be raised by two of the most sour people in the kingdom. Sansa has lost all her family and was forced into an arranged marriage. Tyrion had seen his claims for CR turned down and will spend most of his life at his nephew’s and sister’s mercy. Tyrion Jnr  has claim to both CR and Winterfell which makes him extremely dangerous. If the boy happens to have his uncle stature and his father brilliance then he will be well sought by both regions. Considering how poorly the Queen regent and Ramsey Bolton will be leading those regions than there’s a big chance of them rebelling and push Tyrion JNR’s claim. A person whose got the Lannister’s wealth and the Northern armies (+ links to the Tully and Arryns)at his side is a dangerous enemy indeed. If he happens to marry Willas’s daughter then he might end up more powerful than the king himself

[the trees have eyes]

15 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Problem here, however, despite my complete agreement with you and with the justice in it is that the would question how Tyrion had that information if not involved in the plot himself.  I think some kind of scenario like this, even prior to any child, will come to pass in the books and Tyrion is good at legal and political arguments but this one is not looking good for him.  Him and Sansa really really would have to deliver some very convincing speech although we readers know he was innocent and unaware lol

The Northerners will never care for Tyrion so whether they believe he is innocent of any involvement in the RW (unlikely that they would) or not is somewhat moot.  It's Sansa and Ned's grandson they believe in and whether they arrange a hunting accident for Tyrion or choke him down until Sansa's son - and let's call him, oh i don't know, perhaps Eddard - inherits he's a more palatable alternative to the arch traitor Roose Turncloak.  If Tyroin is smart - and we know that he is - he would promise and arrange for Roose and Ramsey to be punished if the Northerners had not already taken care of that themselves.

[the trees have eyes]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

The king first instinct would be to appoint him warden of the North. The boy is his cousin and he would have lived in CR or KL for most of his life. By that time he would be brainwashed in thinking that the Stark branch were wrong in rebelling and he will be grateful to the king for appointing him Warden of the North despite everything that happened.

From a Lannister perspective, there are two things that they have to be taking in account. 

A-    Whether or not the North will accept him. Roose won’t go down without a fight and the last thing a king would want is to fight in a region which is almost impossible to fight in. He should avoid instigating a rebellion unless he’s 100% sure that Tyrion Stark has enough backing from the North to win it.
B-    Tyrion JNR will be raised be raised by two of the most sour people in the kingdom. Sansa has lost all her family and was forced into an arranged marriage. Tyrion had seen his claims for CR turned down and will spend most of his life at his nephew’s and sister’s mercy. Tyrion Jnr  has claim to both CR and Winterfell which makes him extremely dangerous. If the boy happens to have his uncle stature and his father brilliance then he will be well sought by both regions. Considering how poorly the Queen regent and Ramsey Bolton will be leading those regions than there’s a big chance of them rebelling and push Tyrion JNR’s claim. A person whose got the Lannister’s wealth and the Northern armies (+ links to the Tully and Arryns)at his side is a dangerous enemy indeed. If he happens to marry Willas’s daughter then he might end up more powerful than the king himself

Tyrion would have to be a numpty to name his son after himself and rub the Northern Lords' noses in the dirt.  Reminding them that the heir to the north is Ned Stark's grandson is smart, reminding them that he is Tywin Lannister's grandson is beyond counter-productive!

[Morgana Lannister]

On 11/27/2016 at 9:32 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

Are you sure about this? If I remember the discussion Jon Snow had with Alys Karstark about the Karstark succession line, I have some doubts. In my opinion: IF Sansa was heir to Winterfell and she had a son, he would be prior to Arya in the succession line.

A male child of Sansa, with anyone, I guess provided he was conceived in wedlock would come before Arya upon Sansa's death.  Just trying to think of how monarchies work in our world for instance, pretty unchanged since at least the middle ages.  For argument say if Queen Elizabeth II of England had died when both her elder son, Charles, and her sister, Margaret, were alive, Charles would have got the throne not Margaret.  This is in a country with a female monarch but that does not mean that males and females are equal when it comes to inherit this sort of title.  Now, had Elizabeth died without issue then yes it would have gone to Margaret...  Okay, this is George's world but it seems to operate on similar inheritance law premises.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 11/17/2016 at 1:10 PM, The Sleeper said:

The question is whether he would murder them all discreetly or butcher them openly. It depends on the circumstances. He might have spared Sansa.

I very much doubt the intention was a viable plan to hold the North, but rather to destroy Sansa as a political asset and to send Tyrion into exile and possibly death, so as not to have him interfere with the inheritence of Casterly Rock, as well as to heap further humiliation on house Stark. Does it really sound like Tywin wanted Tyrion in a position of power?

Well, regarding the first point, they could try lol (either way); Roose would be subtle in method, Ramsay the opposite IMHO but try they would.  The thing is that if this hypothetical Lannstark kid, with both his parents currently fugitives does come into this "game" it can only be because his parents have become powerful and/or are backed by extremely powerful people, which I think will be the case.

As for Tywin, a bit like LF, my personal impression is that he is both a planner and an opportunist and that these two styles are not mutually exclusive; oftentimes he uses a mixture of the two.  Now, of course upon hearing of the Tyrells' "plot" (as he calls it) to marry into the north, he has to prevent this at all costs.  He always wanted Tyrion on the sidelines at the very least but Tyrion can also be useful to him at times, hence he named him Acting Hang when Tyrion was his best alternative and he knows he is bright and cunning.  At that particular point in time I don't think he intended for Tyrion to end up at the Wall necessarily.  He would have been very instrumental in the North.  Sending him to the Wall without Sansa and child/ren would give the rule of the North back to a Stark at least until the child came of age, so no, he wanted Lannister presence.  Also this would have the practical effect of Tyrion being too busy trying to rule "unruly" (lol) Northern Lords to bother with Casterley or have time for it.  Trying and convicting both Tyrion and Sansa, say, for whatever imaginary crime would have lost him the north.  Not what I think Tywin was going for.  Yes, circumstances intervened and a scapegoat was needed for Joffrey's murder.  It was convenient and "opportunistic" on Tywin's part to think: "hey, great, we get to be seen as being tough and dishing out justice and so impartial than even our own family members don't escape and hey, yeah, even better, I get rid of this embarrassing son who incomprehensibly seems stubborn about not consumating and I cut a deal with Jaime that makes him leave the Kings Guard lol beautiful!  As for Tywin wanting Tyrion in a position of power, if serving his House faithfully, which he did until the trial, yes, he is an asset but he doesn't love him, he disapproves of his hedonistic ways and he wants he to be "second fiddle" but he gave him power, even over Cersei in a way... so, personally, the "plot" in Tywin's mind developed as circumstances did unfold.  People might view this differently but my two cents is that the "Wall" idea came to Tywin later in the story due to sudden events.

[JLE]

On 16/11/2016 at 6:34 PM, LordImp said:

Tyrion and Sansa was supposed to have a kid and that kid will inheritate Winterfell. Roose Bolton was named warden of the North after the red wedding . When Tyrions kids was of age he would become the new ruler of the North .

If Tyrion and Sansa ever had a kid and this kid came of age , would Roose Bolton step down as warden of the North and swear fealty to Tyrions kid? 

Of course not. He'd have the child assassinated, probably Sansa too, if they ever dared come near the North. He didn't do this to exchange one Stark for another, and certainly not to exchange a Stark for a southerner. He'd accept a southerner overlord at a distance - as the Starks did - but not in Winterfell or anywhere in the North.

What's keeping Sansa safe from Roose *is* the fact that she's not in the North, she's on the run in disguise and under sentence of death if found. The moment she reveals herself, she becomes a potential target for Roose unless he has already fallen.

[devilish]

15 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tyrion would have to be a numpty to name his son after himself and rub the Northern Lords' noses in the dirt.  Reminding them that the heir to the north is Ned Stark's grandson is smart, reminding them that he is Tywin Lannister's grandson is beyond counter-productive!

I agree. I only used his name to make it clear whom Im speaking about (ie Tyrion jnr is Tyrion's son). If I was Tyrion I would name him Robert. The King will think its named for his father Robert while the Northerners will think that he's named for Robb

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎28‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 2:28 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

Trouble with this is that there are many, many people who could reveal Jeyne's true identity; foremost Sansa of course but anyone who is a member or the Stark family, served them or visited would serve for this purpose too...  Okay, the servants are too afraid to speak up, Sansa will not be and certainly not the real Arya, say!

I agree. Even the Northman (I think it was Crowfoot Umber) who picked up Theon and fArya beneath the Walls of Winterfell questioned fArya hard, if out of suspicion or just out of carefulness, I do not know. I judge Jeyne Poole (=fArya) not strong enough in her mind to play her part to the end. A hard questioning could make her reveal her real identity anytime.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 11/28/2016 at 6:23 PM, the trees have eyes said:

The Northerners will never care for Tyrion so whether they believe he is innocent of any involvement in the RW (unlikely that they would) or not is somewhat moot.  It's Sansa and Ned's grandson they believe in and whether they arrange a hunting accident for Tyrion or choke him down until Sansa's son - and let's call him, oh i don't know, perhaps Eddard - inherits he's a more palatable alternative to the arch traitor Roose Turncloak.  If Tyroin is smart - and we know that he is - he would promise and arrange for Roose and Ramsey to be punished if the Northerners had not already taken care of that themselves.

Totally agree although they might get to "tolerate" him if he really has Sansa's backing which I think he would have and likely Jon's too.  Jon and Tyrion parted in friendly terms.  As for this "hunting accident" even when Sansa totally rejected him when they first married she never actually hated him and even in the books she seems to have come to the realisation that he wasn't that bad after all.  It is possible that having killed his father and lover (although I doubt she knows about Shae since Cersei kept that quiet, unless he confesses it to her which I think he might...) makes her see him in a different light.  Still if she decides to stay with him for political reasons or whatever and have his child is going to be because she can work well with him and has some respect for him. She is not going to be pleased if someone just goes and kills him.  She might kill for revenge herself (LF seems like the typical candidate) but she won't go quietly if someone attacks, never mind kills, her husband whether there is true love there or not.  Also it would make her look weak if her liege Lords could get away with this, so it really, really would have to look very accidental indeed.  Tyrion has survived some really near impossible scenarios, okay his luck might eventually run out, but he is not an easy target (unless the perpetrator was someone he really loved).  Some of the northern Lords might attempt something but I personally think it would be ill advised and would end up badly for them.  The Karstarks for instance should remember how Robb reacted to something similar over two teenagers who meant nothing to him.  I think Sansa is going to become darker but despite all her LF training I think she will retain a lot of the northern honour that was taught to all the kids by her father.  I see her a mixture of political cunning, ruthless strength when needed but also more compassion than when we first see her in the series and a strong Stark code of honour.  She would definitely execute anyone who attempted this and I think by that point her Lords would know this.  Okay some impulsive crackpot might give this a go but it wouldn't end well for him/her/them.

Eddard could be a good name but so would Robert as someone has suggested, perhaps even more so.  I can't see Tyrion objecting for both political reasons and also because he had nothing against Ned although he might have been forced to go to war with him, had Ned survived.  If he wanted to honour his side of the family I think it would be with a girl, a Joanna after his mum.  I don't think anybody would terribly mind this with a girl and not a first born, say... could be wrong though.  I see the purpose of this union as a way to heal Westeros of so much family prejudice.  After fighting the WWs to the death things have to be rebuilt and unity is needed so an Eddard a Joanna and say a Robert would be just perfect names IMHO.  As for family name, I don't recall a double barrelled name in this series but Lannister-Stark or Stark-Lannister depending where they rule could work.  I think it's relatively safe to assume that Tyrion is likely to make it until the end of the story and that he will play an important part at the end.  There have to be reasons why he went to the Wall, say and I can't see him staying miserable and pain in the butt till the end, he will recover and do something heroic, as will Sam and Pod, me thinks... so the Northern Lords might have to eat some humble pie there but so will Tyrion with them in respecting their customs, or at least many of them and compromise.  Even if Tyrion ends up dying in the battle it has to be something spectacular and my bet would be that he would totally redeem himself so they would overlook the fact that the kid has Lannister blood.

As for the Boltons, yes, if they survive Stannis, Sansa will Court martial them for sure for the RW and taking her home, with or without Tyrion's help but sure, Tyrion, if around, would help lol.  Jeyne would probably be call to testify too and would see justice done.  I personally feel that is more likely that Sansa or Sansa/Tyrion crash the Boltons than the other way around.

It's all a matter of timing with this hypothesis though.  If they were to turn up in WF with claims to it now, say reunited and with baby there is too much going on, Stannis for one thing who could potentially crash them both but they wouldn't be so stupid as to attempt that I don't think.  If this happens at all it has to be after the final battle.

lol I read your post wrong re Tyrion and Red Wedding - if nobody can convince them that he wasn't party to it, he is dead for sure lol  However, Sansa saw his reaction and it seems pretty clear that, although she distrusted him as a Lannister he believed him on that one; she thinks relatively fondly of him whilst in the Vale and no way this could be so if she thought he knew about it or could had in any way prevented it or something.  No way she would have been even civil to him either at all.  Okay, she was frosty but she seems to care also when Dontos tells her he has been arrested etc.  She will be the one delivering the speech to the Northern Lords if this scenario or something of this ilk comes to pass in canon.

 

 

[the trees have eyes]

The only way I could imagine Sansa staying with and having a child with Tyrion is under duress, i.e. she never escpaed the Lannisters in the first place.  She sees the good in Tyrion (the kindness) as did Jon but the amount of bad blood, quite literally, makes Tyrion unacceptable to the Northerners unless Tywin's plan had a chance to come to fruition and Sansa and her son were seen as a return of the Starks and a chance for vengeance on the Boltons.  The Northerners would know they had lost but would at least feel they had a chance to resuce Ned's daughter and grandson from the Lannisters' deadly embrace and be ruled by their beloved Starks.

In the scenario we have that Tywin died and Sansa escaped then Tyrion is surplus to requirements in all aspects.  Not only is he an enemy, he is also a dwarf in a society that despises those who are not strong and able, and a believed regicide and confirmed patricide to boot.  If Sansa wanted to play happy families with this man despite all this and without any duress I can't see how the North would welcome her.  It's one thing to rescue your own from the enemy, quite another when they seem quite happy with the enemy.  This seems very close to GRRM's original outline for Sansa but with Tyrion not Joffrey being the Lannister she betrays her family for.

Robb's solution was a dissolution of the marriage by means of Tyrion's death.  It's hard to see any other outcome for Tyrion if he headed north without the backing of the crown and the military might of a unified 7K behind him.

[The Sleeper]

On 28/11/2016 at 11:23 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

Well, regarding the first point, they could try lol (either way); Roose would be subtle in method, Ramsay the opposite IMHO but try they would.  The thing is that if this hypothetical Lannstark kid, with both his parents currently fugitives does come into this "game" it can only be because his parents have become powerful and/or are backed by extremely powerful people, which I think will be the case.

As for Tywin, a bit like LF, my personal impression is that he is both a planner and an opportunist and that these two styles are not mutually exclusive; oftentimes he uses a mixture of the two.  Now, of course upon hearing of the Tyrells' "plot" (as he calls it) to marry into the north, he has to prevent this at all costs.  He always wanted Tyrion on the sidelines at the very least but Tyrion can also be useful to him at times, hence he named him Acting Hang when Tyrion was his best alternative and he knows he is bright and cunning.  At that particular point in time I don't think he intended for Tyrion to end up at the Wall necessarily.  He would have been very instrumental in the North.  Sending him to the Wall without Sansa and child/ren would give the rule of the North back to a Stark at least until the child came of age, so no, he wanted Lannister presence.  Also this would have the practical effect of Tyrion being too busy trying to rule "unruly" (lol) Northern Lords to bother with Casterley or have time for it.  Trying and convicting both Tyrion and Sansa, say, for whatever imaginary crime would have lost him the north.  Not what I think Tywin was going for.  Yes, circumstances intervened and a scapegoat was needed for Joffrey's murder.  It was convenient and "opportunistic" on Tywin's part to think: "hey, great, we get to be seen as being tough and dishing out justice and so impartial than even our own family members don't escape and hey, yeah, even better, I get rid of this embarrassing son who incomprehensibly seems stubborn about not consumating and I cut a deal with Jaime that makes him leave the Kings Guard lol beautiful!  As for Tywin wanting Tyrion in a position of power, if serving his House faithfully, which he did until the trial, yes, he is an asset but he doesn't love him, he disapproves of his hedonistic ways and he wants he to be "second fiddle" but he gave him power, even over Cersei in a way... so, personally, the "plot" in Tywin's mind developed as circumstances did unfold.  People might view this differently but my two cents is that the "Wall" idea came to Tywin later in the story due to sudden events.

I'm not buying it. Apart from the forced circumstancial of the marriage (Sansa going to the Tyrells) even the sales pitch is full of ifs and maybes. The fact that there is a sales pitch to begin with is suspect. If it was part of Tywin's plans for the North, he would have just ordered Tyrion on the threat of cutting him off. Considering that Bolton has armies, allies, a royal appointment as warden of the North, while Tyrion has none of those things, him claiming the North through his offspring with Sansa is at best a theoretical prospect for the distant future and at worst a death sentence as it would brand him a traitor.

Tyrion's appointment as acting Hand meant that any authority he had stemmed from Tywin and he was in a very tight spot at the time. Not only that, Tywin stripped him of all power when he returned to the capital. Tywin wants Tyrion out of the way. Given that his major concern is having him interfere with the inheritance of the Rock having him gain power, would be the last thing Tywin wants. I don't think he would mind undermining Bolton, but I also don't think he would allow Tyrion any reasonable chances of success.

Lastly I think Tywin is a vindictive bastard and apart from destroying Sansa as a political asset, he saw the opportunity of having the sister and heir of the boy who humiliated him defiled by his despised son.

[devilish]

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The only way I could imagine Sansa staying with and having a child with Tyrion is under duress, i.e. she never escpaed the Lannisters in the first place.  She sees the good in Tyrion (the kindness) as did Jon but the amount of bad blood, quite literally, makes Tyrion unacceptable to the Northerners unless Tywin's plan had a chance to come to fruition and Sansa and her son were seen as a return of the Starks and a chance for vengeance on the Boltons.  The Northerners would know they had lost but would at least feel they had a chance to resuce Ned's daughter and grandson from the Lannisters' deadly embrace and be ruled by their beloved Starks.

In the scenario we have that Tywin died and Sansa escaped then Tyrion is surplus to requirements in all aspects.  Not only is he an enemy, he is also a dwarf in a society that despises those who are not strong and able, and a believed regicide and confirmed patricide to boot.  If Sansa wanted to play happy families with this man despite all this and without any duress I can't see how the North would welcome her.  It's one thing to rescue your own from the enemy, quite another when they seem quite happy with the enemy.  This seems very close to GRRM's original outline for Sansa but with Tyrion not Joffrey being the Lannister she betrays her family for.

Robb's solution was a dissolution of the marriage by means of Tyrion's death.  It's hard to see any other outcome for Tyrion if he headed north without the backing of the crown and the military might of a unified 7K behind him.

Today’s enemies are usually tomorrow’s friends so if Tyrion played his cards well with Sansa then he’ll probably not only survive but also get the armies he needs to stake his claim. 

A-    Tyrion treats Sansa with great respect. He won’t rape her but she’s bright enough to know that unless she conceive a child from him, Tywin will strip her away from her protector and give her to somebody else.  The old lion hates being played around so there’s a decent possibility that the option would be far worse than Tyrion. 
B-    Tyrion pushes his claim to CR. Tywin denies it flatly mainly because  he doesn’t like him (which happened)
C-    Sansa conceives a child from Tyrion. Both are wise enough not to irk Tywin and to work hard to get Tommen’s support. The boy likes his uncle and while he won’t clash swords with his benefactor he’ll probably allow him to go to Winterfell with Sansa
D-    Meanwhile the North is terrorised by the Boltons. Roose struggles to keep things under check and he gives Ramsey carte blanche to do the dirty work. As soon as Sansa returns to Winterfell, Roose will expect her to bend the knee to him. Tyrion being Tyrion will protect his wife once more. Roose would probably not insist further knowing that, at the end of the day, Lannisters will always be Lannisters and will defend their own.
E-     Tywin dies, and a political vacuum occur. Cersei and Kevan wrestle for CR which will weaken the Lannisters greatly. Roose will probably take this opportunity to bully Sansa to submission. The Stark loyalists will protect Sansa and Sansa will, in turn, protect her husband. Tyrion, being fond of his own nephew will probably convince Sansa to allow him to go to KL and ask for help. This will have two possible conclusions

a-    Tommen who loves his uncle and he knows that Lannisters will always pay their debts decide to defend Tyrion’s interest. He declares Sansa warden of the North as long as Tyrion becomes Lord Protector of the North. A civil war occurs and the Boltons are quickly wiped out mainly because the North love the Starks, they hate the Boltons and Tyrion has the crown’s backing
b-    Tommen decides to act as an AHOLE by ordering Sansa to bend the knee to Roose. At that point a civil war will occur and the Starks will probably prevail in their own land. Tyrion being Tyrion will be able to charm the Northerners to allow him to give a say and his ideas will actually work. At that point, Sansa will have to decide whether to proceed with the war. She’s got an army, her own husband is the rightful heir of CR and her own son can one day inherit it.